Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.

Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New
York Times bestselling author of

The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.

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So now let's jump in.

Welcome back to Live Free, Ride Free.

I've got author, animal behaviorist
animal behavior guru dogs, wildlife,

horses, exotics, everything you…

cetaceans.

Anything you can think of.

Also, the m- mentor, one of the mentors
of the legendary horse trainer and liberty

man, David Lichman, who you will find
also having been interviewed on this show.

Jennifer Zelig's, I should say Dr.

General Reverend, Reverend Professor,
… Jennifer Zeligs, who is joining

us from Oxford, even though she is
a professor at Cal State Monterey

Bay, and has been for some decades.

And has lived a jolly interesting life,
and has taught many, many horse people

how to understand the whole deal better.

But also just has a ton to say
on animals, nature, and the mind.

And I would probably assume the
sort of general consciousness field.

But we…

guess we'll find out about that.

She's also got a cool line in hats,
which she might show us later.

So Jennifer, did I get that right?

And thank you for coming on the show.

And tell us who, who you are and what…

how'd you get involved in this
whole what animals do and helping

people understand them business?

Jenifer Zeligs: Thank you very much, Ru.

And it it was right.

I think the broad brush is correct.

Maybe some of the superlatives felt
heavy for me, but, you know, very nice.

Very nice to hear.

You don't feel you're a

Rupert Isaacson: hat guru,
you feel you're more of a hat-

Jenifer Zeligs: I-

… Rupert Isaacson: consumer of hats.

Jenifer Zeligs: Yeah.

I'm an amateur at hat.

Okay.

I mean, we had a whole hat conversation.

We might have done.

I'll just, you know, there we go.

Newest hat.

We put

Rupert Isaacson: the
hat on before we begin.

Jenifer Zeligs: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Maybe we can't
c- c- well, if you put the

hat on, then we can establish
immediately the professional-amateur

nature of, of the hat.

We can just settle that question.

Jenifer Zeligs: This is not the
hat that I would wear if I was

going out horse training, though.

I have a wonderful Australian hat.

I'll make

Rupert Isaacson: you a deal.

I will wear that hat
when I go horse training.

Jenifer Zeligs: No you won't.

I will.

This is a hat that I value
greatly, and I do not want horse-

Rupert Isaacson: You don't-

Jenifer Zeligs: dust and
nibbling all over my hat.

But we will stop the horse nibbling.

I just got this hat at Downton

Rupert Isaacson: Abbey.

Pretty neat.

Horse nibble- But it is a very,
very, very, ooh, fetching hat.

Now, when you put the brim up like
that and it gives it a sort of

1930s twist, we like this very much.

Yeah.

Jenifer Zeligs: Yes, well- We approve

my hair is not thrilled
with it, and it is back.

Rupert Isaacson: If I was a
horse, I would immediately become

cooperative if you were in that

Jenifer Zeligs: hat.

Or, or enraged.

I think what you're saying
is that you are feeling more

cooperative with me in this hat.

I, I think that's-

Rupert Isaacson: Indeed, indeed, indeed.

Pr- well, projection is, is part of the
na- whole thing of nature and the mind.

I'm sure that animals project their
thing onto us, just as we do to them.

It's interesting, actually,
that you bring that up.

People are always accusing each
other of anthropomorphizing.

It's like, well, what else
are we supposed to do?

That's the lens we see through, and
I'm sure my dog dogthroporizizes

me, and my horse probably
equothroporizizes me or something.

'Cause how can they not?

But maybe we meet in the middle.

Maybe that's the thing.

But I mean, I'm just being flippant.

You are an eminent authority in this
field, and I know that you have worked

with everything in ways that people
find frankly miraculous, including

large predators and things like this.

Mm.

But let's start with horses, because
we're horse people, and we horse

people need the word horse to be
said a lot in order to feel- … safe

and secure, like sucking my thumb.

So let's start with horses.

What's your horse background?

And then how does that
inform the rest of it?

And then we can go from there.

Jenifer Zeligs: Okay, so I
will use the word horse as

much as possible in my answer.

Rupert Isaacson: Very good.

Jenifer Zeligs: And what's interesting
is my story starts with horses.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Jenifer Zeligs: When I was eight or
nine, we're not totally sure, but I

started, you know, I loved animals.

Probably a lot of you can relate to
this viewpoint, and th- one of the most

obvious animals to get really deeply
involved with especially is horses.

Young girls and horses, I mean, or
young boys and horses too, right?

But horses is a, is a real standard
way of, of embracing the animal world.

And so I started riding, and I was
doing around the worlds and stuff like

that, and I thought, you know, the, the
instructor was, was v- very encouraging.

So I thought I was gonna be the
next Annie Oakley, you know?

Like, this is my thing.

Th- this is…

My mom had set this up.

Well, my mom was a immunologist, which
means she studied the immune system

and its effects for good and for ill.

And what happened was I developed
a very small allergy to horses.

Like, you know, a little bit of
sneezing, a little bit of runny eyes.

And she was concerned with the
potential effect that that would

have on my immune system development,
making it hyperreactive whether

or not that, you know, is a real
problem or, or not, anyways, that's

what she thought at the time.

And so she didn't really want me to go
bury my face in horses all the time.

That was not, you know, she saw
that as getting worse and worse.

Maybe I had some other autoimmune elements
that were making her a little bit worried.

So we had a little bit of a fight
over this, and she ended up finding

for me, as a substitute, good mother,
really this is a, a differential

reinforcement strategy that she used.

She found a substitute which
was at the National Zoo in

Washington, which is where I lived.

There was this Friends of the National
Zoo program, and they had a course.

This was just when exotic
animal training was starting.

Wasn't really happening very much.

This is a long time back.

And this woman was bringing what the
marine mammal industry knew about into the

world of the zoo, and she was teaching a
course on basically how to communicate,

collaborate instead of force, instead
of trick, instead of using anesthesia,

using, you know, using terms and
words and, and conditioned attractive,

mutually beneficial experiences.

So I took this course.

My mother argued my way in.

I was way too young.

I was nine, let's say.

Rupert Isaacson: I was gonna say,
how, there must have been an, a, a

sort of bit of a minimum age thing.

Jenifer Zeligs: Yeah, it was 16, I think.

I, it was for high school students.

Yeah.

High school and college students.

Rupert Isaacson: And you were how old?

Jenifer Zeligs: Nine.

Rupert Isaacson: Wow.

Your mom must have been a good talker.

Jenifer Zeligs: She was.

And the woman who w- the woman who
taught it, Casey Cover, who was my

first mentor, she was very kind-hearted.

And I was also very precocial, you know?

Mm-hmm.

I was quite an independent, bright
… Well, I mean, that sounds weird

to say, but I, I, you know, the, I
was raised quite independently, so.

Rupert Isaacson: You were the kind
of kid who she looked at and thought,

"Yeah, maybe this could work."

Right.

Jenifer Zeligs: Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and it did, because I volunteered
for her for seven years after that-

Okay … at the zoo, working with
all kinds of different species.

And, and she tried to, … I think she
tried to work within the bounds of the

system that there was set up at the zoo.

You weren't supposed to have
a little kid doing this.

So she sat me down in front of different
groups of animals and said, "Take

scientific notes on what those animals
are doing for periods of hours."

So I would take two subways and
two buses every weekend and spend,

like, 10 hours a day or whatever.

I don't know, maybe not that long,
but seemingly long periods of time

sitting in front of lions and tigers and
bears and wolves and gazelles and, you

know, everything that you can imagine.

Beavers and taking notes.

And what, what's happening in
that critical, you know, that's

still a critical learning
period for language acquisition.

It's not as, you know, obviously it's
later than what we normally think

of as a true language, I suppose.

But behavioral, social animals like us are
still picking up, I guess maybe language

acquisition is not the right word,

Rupert Isaacson: but- Think about
yourself as a child at that point,

that, that this is part of your
language acquisition process 'cause you-

Jenifer Zeligs: Yeah, or maybe I, I think
I've caught myself using the wrong term,

'cause I realize the community you're in.

So it, it's more like I'm
picking up social cues-

Rupert Isaacson: Got it

… Jenifer Zeligs: which
are body language cues.

Mm-hmm.

You know?

Rupert Isaacson: Behavioral stuff, yeah.

Jenifer Zeligs: Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and the inferred implications
of this between individuals.

Rupert Isaacson: Emotional- So-
… development, emotional intelligence,

all of the above sort of thing.

Just, yeah.

Yeah, I could see that.

Jenifer Zeligs: Yeah.

So I was a, a bit of a sponge at that
age, and I was getting data sets that were

comparing all these different species.

And I think it really opened
up my mind to both being really

interested in the different ways that
individuals and species think about

things- Mm … and are interested.

The range of interest, the range of
expression of interest, where the,

where the overlaps are, where, you
know, the the big bell curve is.

And something about listening,
something about reading animals.

Rupert Isaacson: So can you give us,
I think any of us would be listening

now would be very curious to know,
when you did that initial course,

there would've been like a s- on the
structure of that course, Exotic Animal

Behavior 101, what did she teach you?

What were the, like, fundamental
basics that you walked out

of that initial contact with?

Jenifer Zeligs: She really focused on a
very primordial set of techniques about

how to establish communication with
animals so that, you know, it was, it

was focused on positive reinforcement.

It was focused on how to engage
the animal's attractive, you know,

interest, play interest, food interest.

Interest, not avoidance systems.

And then labeling things so that
we had a mutual communication

so we were reliable, clear.

And the two primary techniques she was
focusing on that are still fundamental

to the, to the field is the technique
of, of bridging or reward markers.

You would probably know this as a clicker.

Okay.

The clicker is an example of this, but
the principle was much more interesting.

And targeting, which is teaching the
animal to act out on its environment

to specifically touch certain…

touch and hold and move
with certain places.

And you can label all kinds of
different parts of their body, and

then move them sequentially like
a marionette or a game of Twister.

So-

Rupert Isaacson: And when you say move
them, you m- move them with touches or

move them with vocal cues, or both, or…?

Jenifer Zeligs: Both.

I mean, the cue itself is secondary
to the principle of understanding.

Mm-hmm.

So, you know, some animals might
really respond well to visual cues.

Some animals might really respond
well to verbal cues, and we

usually layer them together.

Mm-hmm.

More information is better.

Mm-hmm.

And that way whoever the
individual is has twice the chance

of receiving the information.

And the idea is you move the, you move the
target and the animal moves to the target.

So it's sort of the opposite of what
you traditionally think of in the horse

world where you put pressure, maybe
even slight pressure, maybe it's even

at a distance, the pressure, and the
animal moves away from the pressure.

In this case, it's all attractive,
so the animal moves into.

So the animal is operating on
its environment volitionally, not

receiving the environment, operating
on it, and that felt difference

activates a different system.

It's a seeking system.

Rupert Isaacson: A seeking system.

Got it.

Jenifer Zeligs: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: And so, you
know, one could go into dopamine.

One could go into anticipatory reward.

One could go into serotonin.

And I think a lot of people listening
will already be thinking, "Oh, yeah,

I can sort of see why that would be
working in the brain and the nervous

system of both the animal and the,
and the, and the human involved."

What would be really, I think, lovely
is could you Take, give us a couple of

snapshots from that early experience.

Are there a couple of stories that really
stand out for you where you're in an

enclosure with an animal and you're trying
these techniques in these early days?

And maybe it's not the first time, but
just in that sort of early formative

period in a way that I think can help
us to picture and understand how that

looks and, and through, through the
eyes of that younger self of yours.

Jenifer Zeligs: Oh, gosh.

What I remember the most was,
Working with animals who never had

any kind of foundation of let's say
thoughtful and deliberate training.

I would say all animals in
a managed care or captive

environment, they're being trained.

They're just being trained
in a maybe haphazard way.

So the definition of training I'd be
using is something like behavior change

brought about by human interaction.

So we are changing their behavior, but
we may be doing it kind of thoughtlessly.

So when you start opening up what is
a more in- consistent and on purpose-

Rupert Isaacson: Intentional, yeah

… Jenifer Zeligs: and gentle,
exploratory, curious, positive,

engaging type of experience.

And we do this by g- so one of
my memes is come bearing gifts.

This wasn't from this timeframe, but we've
used it at this timeframe, which is you

start out the interaction to establish a
mood of positivity and optimism, and you

do this by non-contingent reinforcement.

You do it by offering before you
ask, connection before direction.

So this would be the way of
kind of gaining a certain

level of trust and interest.

And so we would go, you know, I can
remember with some cheetahs and at

least one mountain lion and, and some
wolves also, we'd just go and show

up, and we'd let a we'd let off a
noise that meant we were gonna deliver

something positive, and we just gave.

And, and that is the process
of conditioning the bridge.

So it would be like, "Yes, give.

Yes, give."

And it doesn't matter
what the animal is doing.

The animal can spend the first several
training sessions being suspicious.

You know, they're used to being herded
around, pushed or forced by like

even fire hoses, stuff like that.

You know, they how does
somebody move them around?

Of course, they also do follow the food,
so that's, you know, that's also in there,

but they may have like a, a push-pull
relationship with people because Dr.

Jekyll and Mr.

Hyde, you know?

So instead, we created context where
we were always dependable, and we were

dependable in a sense of bringing,
bringing the mood up in terms of

exploration and offering, and we
conditioned this bridge stimulus.

And then once we got regular engagement,
once you saw that the mood of the

animal was they saw us coming, they
identified us as individuals, and they

went, "Ooh," that's an optimistic mood,
and they would come running, you know?

They would just identify and come running.

And then we would start going, "Ooh, if
you look at that, then you get the yes."

And that, you know, and we
start by just look at and then

go, go towards and then touch.

And we could do all of this even
through a barrier for safety.

So both of us were in a safe scenario.

No one's pushing on anyone
else and no one is threatened.

And we start to create situations where
they can get what they want safely

and through exploration, through play.

They could try all kinds of different
ways of, you know, certain animals

would get very inventive, certain
animals would get very aroused.

But it would, it would bring up a, a
whole different way of thinking about

how they could interact with people.

And what you saw was delight instead
of just sort of the, the animal shut

down, moving around the environment,
maybe foraging and doing stuff

like that, but not really looking
at people as something positive.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

Jenifer Zeligs: So that's what I remember.

Rupert Isaacson: And it, it's
interesting, I'm, I'm glad you said

this is behind, this is behind a barrier
'cause I was thinking, well, they're

taking a nine-year-old girl into a
pack of wolves or with the cheetahs.

And like, well, they must be
good, or they must be nuts.

But I was assuming obviously that
it would've been behind a barrier.

And I think one of the things that I
like about that imagery is that when

I was taught my initial trick training
by a guy, a very good guy who I keep

trying to get on this show, I hope he
will come on one day, Alan Pogue in

the USA, who's a very, very, very good
horse trick trainer and taught me a lot.

We did all our initial stuff, despite
the fact that I'm a lifelong horseman,

on the other side of a, of a fence or
a barrier because he said, "You know,

Rupert, one day you're gonna have to teach
people how to do this, and I want you to

start as if you didn't know anything."

And it was such a great- Mm

beginning because it made me
rethink and it made me reframe, and

it, and it also prevented me from
trying to do, because I couldn't

actually physically reach the horse.

I couldn't use my hands.

I couldn't use the things I would
normally have just automatically

in my monkey way tried to use.

And, Mm

it created more observation.

And you were talking
about observation there.

And I love the fact that also you talked
about delight and that you used that

phrase come bearing gifts, because
you know who uses that phrase now, he

quotes you, is David Litchman, who is
s- Oh … he, he's one of the greats

in terms of liberty horse training.

And for listeners who don't
know him go check him out.

We've, we did an interview
with him a little while ago.

It's in the library.

And he absolutely credits
you with a lot, Jennifer.

But he says, yes, this, this, this
concept of come bearing gifts, because,

you know, he was talking about how
he can train or display with liberty

horses, say, on an open beach.

Yeah.

Where they absolutely have the
possibility of leaving, and he's

had the experience where they have.

But he said, no, it was Jennifer's
come bearing gifts thing that sets up

the initial framework that makes the
concept of doing this even possible.

So, you mentioned that these techniques
had come from working with marine animals.

Is that correct?

Jenifer Zeligs: In a loose sense, yes.

Yeah.

I mean, I think the marine
animal world, because it doesn't

have, you can't use any gear.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

Jenifer Zeligs: The, the, you know,
kind of what your, your mentor was

pointing to, you know, in horses, i-
it's a, it's a convenient and forgiving

arrangement, and so you can kind of
cut corners or something like that.

But maybe that cuts out
certain elements of-

The more ephemeral aspect of listening.

And so with, you know, what are you
gonna do with a dolphin or a sea lion?

Mm.

They, you can't…

Gear is not, you're not gonna put
anything on them and, you know- Not put a

Rupert Isaacson: culture on it.

No, no.

Jenifer Zeligs: Yeah.

I mean, it is possible to teach them to
wear harnesses and stuff like that, e-

elaborate and difficult and not something
you can just go in and, and make happen.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Jenifer Zeligs: So we had to come at
it from a much more collaborative…

Or we, I, you know.

The, the, the original people who were
dealing with that process had to cl- come

at it from a different point of view.

And and that's, that is where some
of this thinking came, came up.

Although I think there's a
lot of cross-pollination.

Like, you know, what you said about David
Lichman, first of all, for everybody,

he is absolutely amazing and he's still
teaching all over the world, and I really

recommend, I recommend him so highly.

Yeah, him, yeah.

He's been such a wonderful partner for me.

Rupert Isaacson: And he's just
also such a lovely bloke, too.

Jenifer Zeligs: He's an incredible guy.

Funny and musical, and he's, he really
has an amazing teaching presence, too.

I, I think his his, his way with,
with all beings is, is very lends him,

lends him very well to this world.

But yeah.

So that's my good- that's my
important plug on David Lichman.

He's, he's a, an incredible guy.

But I think there is something
about cross-pollination.

So, you know, taking, taking- Ideas- Mm
… from different fields and, and seeing

where they've got a kind of common thread-

Rupert Isaacson: Mm

… Jenifer Zeligs: it can really shake
free new new ways of approaching things.

So I know Warwick, for example,
is always talking about he had

this sort of- Warwick, yeah.

Yeah, Warwick Schiller,
who's, that's how we met.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Jenifer Zeligs: And he's always
talking about he had this sort of

seminal experience where he couldn't
get through to this shut down animal.

It was sort of in a, we
would say, probably learned

helplessness kind of stage.

Just, just don't wanna- And

Rupert Isaacson: this was

Jenifer Zeligs: a horse.

Yeah.

The horse, yeah.

This

Rupert Isaacson: horse.

You need to say that

Jenifer Zeligs: word.

Ah.

Sorry.

Rupert Isaacson: You need
that safe word, horse.

Yeah.

Jenifer Zeligs: Horse, horse, horse.

Yes.

Horse,

Rupert Isaacson: horse,
horse, horse, horse, horse.

I like it.

Jenifer Zeligs: He was he, he was
having a an experience with a, with a

horse that was really shut down, and
he was sort of, I don't know if he was

really at wit's end, but that's kind
of how the, the story sounds to me.

And so he just pauses and gets
curious about what's going on.

He allows a lot of space for this horse.

Mm.

Instead of operating on the
horse, like you were saying.

He, he gets interested in what's
motivating the horse, and that is some

kind of safety signal for that horse
at that moment, and the horse relaxes.

Mm.

So, you know, safety signals are impor-
It's, it's not just that you need to

have nothing frightening happening.

You actually need to have safety signals.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Jenifer Zeligs: Can you

Rupert Isaacson: be more specific?

Jenifer Zeligs: So, you know, of course,
this is a great example of this be,

or a great place where this principle
needs to, to get focus because horses

as a prey species have a lot more
tendency to be on the frightened end

legitimately, evolutionarily on the c-
compared to, you know, maybe a lion or

a bear or something that, you know, bite
first and ask questions later, whereas

a horse's idea might be, it could be
buck, but it's, it's usually run, right?

Buck and run, something like that.

So we've got our kind of inbuilt
strategies, and if you're a horse, and

your kind of default mode is alert and
fearful what are the safety signals that

will cause- that natural mood to shift.

You know this idea of a mood versus the
emotion versus the behavioral outcome.

The mood is like the predisposing lens
of cognitive biases that we come in.

It's a sort of a biochemical milieu that
you're in that is it's slower to shift,

but it, it, it, it causes the filter that
you're looking at everything through.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Jenifer Zeligs: And then the emotion might
be the more direct, immediate experience

of of Rupert coming up and, you know,
excitedly putting energy towards a horse,

or Warwick in this case doing that.

So how do we interpret that stimulus
of an excited person with all

their energy coming forward at us?

We might interpret that, if we've
had a long history of positive

experiences, we might interpret
that excitedly and with interest.

And if we have a long history of
negative experiences, or we're

predisposed to being like that because
that's our species nature, and we

have a long history of someone,
you know, attacking us or whatever,

our basic mood might be pessimism.

So as soon as you come forward with
all your energy and intensity, the

negative arousal state gets activated.

So one of the ideas is that if you
can create a safety environment, Come

Bearin' Gifts offers that because it, it
suggests I'm go- I care about your needs.

And one of the gifts you can offer is
your attention, your interest, instead

of your agenda and the obligation.

And this works across all species.

Mm.

This is interpersonal
for human beings too.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

So, two, two things spring to mind then.

One of them is a devil's advocate
question, which- Okay … I don't

believe this question, but I'm
gonna pose it anyway because I

think it's, it's worth speaking to.

So one is, I think, although people
might have been less intentional about

this type of thing in the past, I
think that it was often built in to

people's relationships with animals
because a lot of people lived on farms

where there were multiple species.

Mm-hmm.

You spent a lot of time hanging out,
so animals could observe you and you

could observe them because, let's say,
yes, you do have plow horses or you

do have riding horses, but right now
we're working with the cows or the

sheep or the chickens or whatever.

Yeah.

So the horses are kind of just
observing us from over there.

When, when we show up, it's not
always to do something with them.

And if we go into their pasture,
it might be to pick up the poo

or fix the fence or whatever.

It doesn't have to be … Or we might
even be working the sheep in the pasture

where they're, or the cows in the pasture
where they are 'cause they're all sharing

the same pasture or whatever or whatever.

And so I think there was more of
this, even if it wasn't structured and

intentional always- Mm-hmm … built
into people's ways of life,

which has- Yeah … gone a bit.

People are sort of special-
I am a horse person.

I, I have a horse, I have a
job, I keep a horse in a barn.

When I show up with my horse,
this is my hour with my horse.

Yeah.

So when I show up, I cannot
not have an agenda because this

is my one hour with my horse.

It's a completely different thing to
like Mongolian steppe horse culture

or an old British or American farm.

But what the devil's advocate question
is so someone would say, "Well, but

I have to do a job with my horse."

Now, whether or not that's actually true,
that might be the person's perception,

and the horse has to bah, bah, bah,
bah, bah because bah, bah, bah, bah,

bah, and I need this cooperation.

Some people might even say compliance.

I would rather they didn't use that word.

I prefer cooperation, but hey.

But nonetheless, we know that this is
a lens that people are coming for true,

and we have to, I think, understand it
and be compassionate towards it because

people project, particularly with
horses, but also with dogs a lot, a lot.

They, they project their hopes and

their dreams onto these
animals, particularly.

Dogs it's more the emotional relationship.

Be my friend, be my true friend,
the one who never lets me down.

Yeah.

Not like all those bad
boyfriends I had, you know?

That's a, a lot to put on an animal.

And dog's like, "I don't know, man.

And I'm here."

And, and, and then the horse, which
is, you know, my dreams of being

carried and my dreams of freedom
and my dreams of sort of ac-

self-actualization- Yeah … and so on.

And a, a lot of the metaphors
that we use around horses have

to do with that kind of thing.

How do you help somebody to see the
practical value when they m- they

feel a need to come with the agenda?

That we, we can't condemn it, we
have to accept it, because that's

also part of human nature, and say,
"All right, you have an agenda."

When you went into, when,
when you go into a wildlife

enclosure, you do have an agenda.

It might be to check the teeth of
that animal and, or to, to do a

veterinary process with that animal.

And so you're actually trying to serve
that animal, but it's still an agenda.

How do we marry agenda with this
kind of agenda with non-agenda?

How do we m- how do we, how do we
meld attachment with non-attachment?

Jenifer Zeligs: Well, I guess, like
anything, it starts with acknowledging

that that's the case, and I think
it's, it's, It's important to feel the

texture of when that's stronger and
more important, and when that can be

looser and more spacious, and realize
that that's itself on a continuum.

It can't, it, you know, you can
tell yourself a story, and just

be careful that you're not.

I think, I think that's, you know, keep
inquiring to yourself, "Is it really,

or is, is that just a convenient excuse
for me trying to get what I want?"

'Cause there's probably, it
probably exists on a continuum.

There are some times where you really
need to see the teeth, and there

are other times where, well, I wanna
do this 'cause this is my one hour.

But maybe that's a ti- it's an opportunity
where you could approach it more loosely.

I'm not saying that by approaching it
more loosely, it has to be completely

loosey-goosey and all you ever do
is sit around and wonder what the

horse is thinking and follow them.

That's not my suggestion.

So I think the extremes of the
continuum are probably what

we, what we're not looking for.

What we're looking for is
some kind of middle path.

And in general I make an argument that
it's actually the needs of everybody in

the situation that need to be balanced.

That that the real agenda is
that somehow we connect around

our, both of our needs being met.

And we have to acknowledge that the
harder, you know, the, the less you're

really able to meet the need of the other
and, and putting your own needs 100%

of the time above or your own agenda
100% of the time above, you're gonna

slowly wear away that relationship.

And in the context that you were
describing, I think 100% I agree, these

sort of more fluid contacts where there's
a lot of different kinds of interactions,

and those interactions don't carry a heavy
weight of pressure associated with them

those feel more spacious, and they involve
a lot more kind of inherent safety and

playful opportunity and desensitization.

I mean, if you're talking about it from
a behavioral standpoint, that the animal

becomes … It's not like your presence
is just an immediate arousal scenario.

And so that in and of
itself is an, is an element.

But I, I think this idea of trying to
find a way to meet in the middle and

realize that probably what you want
is that sense of connection that means

that both of your needs are being met.

I mean, probably that's
actually what you deeply want.

Whether you're a dog or a horse person,
you want to feel connected I mean,

I, I doubt that it's only that you…

If you just wanna be carried,
there's lots of ways to do that.

There are bicycles, motorcycles,
ve- you know, vehicles.

This thing has a brain,
that your horse is a being.

You wanna connect to a being.

Then the being-ness has to have a
part of the space, and that part,

you have to account for that.

That's part of the magic.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, I think there's…

Y- y- you put your word…

There were two words that
s- stood out for me there.

One was erode, erosion,
erosion of relationship, and

the other was magic, right?

So someone will say, "Well, I, I don't
want a relationship with my horse.

I just want my horse to
do the job and do it."

And, and then I would say, "Actually,
no you do, because you want to be safe."

And if you have a good relationship with
that animal, chances are it won't be

looking for reasons to solve a problem
that it might have, which is you.

Not wanting to spend time with you or
have you on its back or whatever, or

not be particularly tuned into you when
you're locking in to go into a big fence,

or not particularly be tuned into you
when it m- it might be more prone to s-

self-entertaining spooks that could put
you on the ground when the horse isn't

really scared, but he just is gonna
pretend to be because, hey, it's fun.

It makes the monkey make a funny
noise, and it's quite fun to watch

the monkey hit the floor and run away.

All of those, I think, can happen
through erosion of relationship.

So-

You know, when when I was younger and
the sort of older generation of horsemen

were saying, "Well, why, why would I
want to get in all that hippie bullshit?"

It's like, "Well, 'cause it
might keep you alive," you know?

And I imagine for you when you're
entering an enclosure with a large

predator, it really might keep you alive.

Jenifer Zeligs: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: And then
the, the other one is magic.

You know, I would also then turn to that-

professional s- skeptic or cynic
and say, "Well, but the reason

you got involved in horses in the
first place wasn't transportation,

because we don't live in the 1850s.

You got involved in it for fun and wonder
and enjoyment, just like the rest of us.

And anything that erodes that
is gonna be kind of shit.

And anything that enhances that
is going to give you a sense

of euphoria and happiness, so
why wouldn't you go for that?"

But it's interesting how defended
people can get about this stuff.

Jenifer Zeligs: Yeah, that's
what I was just thinking.

Rupert Isaacson: People saying,
"Well, I'm not a hippie."

And I remember p- people
say, "Well, why not?"

Like, I mean, the, the, the hippies
make, had all the right ideas.

You know, we had this, this
conversation just before we

began about the word Bohemian.

You know, all the people who wanna
buy property in, like, Taos or Santa

Fe or, you know, some beautiful town
that was originally col- colonized by

artists who made it all look very nice
and had lots of lovely restaurants,

and had a little of this and that.

It was all very cheap.

And then of course, all the people
with money moved in because the

hippies created the aesthetic.

So I think, and, and, you know,
neuroaesthetics is a huge part

of our brain and our need.

We have a need for beauty,
which is also I think why we're

attracted to things like horses.

So for all those reasons.

But okay, so you, you also said be
the safe space more or less, right?

Be the point of safety.

How?

How do, how do you make yourself that?

Jenifer Zeligs: I think a lot
comes from the, the sense of

respect of the other being.

So I, I can't quite relate to the
idea that I don't want a relationship.

If I just wanted a transport
mechanism, I would use a bicycle.

Rupert Isaacson: Sure.

Jenifer Zeligs: So to me- But,

Rupert Isaacson: but prior
to 1850 you might not have.

Prior to 1850 you might have gotten on the
back of some animal regardless of whether

you felt a sense of kinship with it,
because there was no other transportation.

But you also- True … might have
gotten from A to B better and faster

and more efficiently and arrived alive
if you had a good relationship, right?

Jenifer Zeligs: That's right.

There are and I, I think your
what's in it for me motivational

bl- assessment is correct.

There's, there's, there's more than
just the, the commensal or a mutual

intersection motives that are operational.

Treating someone kindly and caring about
their needs benefits both you and them.

And I'll tell you something else that's,
that we haven't described, which is that

taking that position towards someone
else, taking the position of respect,

taking the position of caring, taking the
position of kindness and compassion, it

has a positive feedback loop on the giver.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Jenifer Zeligs: This is empirically true.

So if you're still just looking
for selfish motives of why you

should be like this or why this is
going to be beneficial, the, the

act of caring benefits the carer.

Yeah.

So that's a psychological phenomenon.

So there's some…

I think because we're a social species.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Jenifer Zeligs: So, Exactly … and,
and the, so the, the wearing down,

going back to this erosion effect, it,
it can affect your own mental state.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

Jenifer Zeligs: Treating someone harshly,
looking at others in a, in a commodified

way, the, the Scrooge kind of mentality
of life- Yeah … where everyone else

is just a, a, a, a piece in your puzzle.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

Jenifer Zeligs: That doesn't
turn out to be satisfying.

Rupert Isaacson: No.

Jenifer Zeligs: That is not
a mechanism for happiness.

Mm.

So, there is a subtext within this.

And I, I agree with you, I don't think
people necessarily always came at…

You know, animals obviously in the
past were much more important from a

practical standpoint than they are now.

But, you know, re- really I just wanna…

We're talking to people today.

Yeah.

So here's where we are.

I can't remember what your
original question was.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Well, the, the other question is,
is to make yourself that safe space.

So I think, you know- Ah, yes.

Thank you … I think a lot of people
might say, "Well, intuitively, you know, I

give them cuddles, I give them food, I, I
hang out with them, I give them scratches,

I- Mm … I doctor their wounds.

You know, I look after their
welfare and they know this."

So I think a lot of people
feel that they're doing that.

But are there, are there more sort
of direct and practical things that

everybody could do With whatever animal,
but I think obviously these are horse

people who are listening, where you
say, "Yes, all of those things are

true, Ru, but here are these things that
actually will really, really enhance

it in a really sort of direct way."

Jenifer Zeligs: Yeah, and I, I…

Thanks for bringing the question back.

And I would say if you ask yourself
what makes you feel safe what

properties someone else brings to the
table that makes you feel safe you

will find some of the answers there.

S- so I can also describe
it by what is unsafe?

Unsafe is unclear, unpredictable-

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm

Jenifer Zeligs: um, random intensity.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Jenifer Zeligs: Not
caring about your needs.

Someone who's just seems to not even
notice you, not, not even acknowledge you.

So some of the things a horse
person could do make things a little

bit cleaner and more predictable.

One of the basic things that I
encourage people to do, although it

does sometimes make them feel silly,
is talk their way through things with

their animals by way of explanation.

"Hey, how are you doing today?

I want us to go over here.

Okay, ready?

Here we go."

So, so that you, you provide a
kind of continuity of of intention,

a little way of explanation.

I mean, from a purely animal training
standpoint, you would put a cue to that.

You would say, "Hey,
we're gonna go do this."

Maybe that feels too formal for people.

I mean, that would be a very, very
clean and clear way of doing this.

You, I would like you to come
with me, rather than just you're

coming with me and I'm going.

Or just the way horse people do it,
is they often grab the, the lead

rope, and then they just turn and go.

That's it.

Mm.

Instead of by way of
invitation, which is like- Mm

"Hey, you, I acknowledge you, I see you,
I'm thinking about your interests, and I'm

gonna explain to you what we're gonna do.

I'm not just gonna yank your nose
and make you stay alert all the time

to watch every single thing I do.

Instead, I'm going to cooperate with
wherever your mind might be, and I'm

gonna respect that mind by just asking."

I'm, just a little bit of
additional information.

I'm not saying you should wait there for
10 minutes while they, you know, stop

munching or whatever, but I am saying
give them, give s- give them some clear

warning of things that are happening.

"Oh, look, there's a, there's a there's
a van that's about to come through.

You know?

You had your back turned.

I see that's about to happen.

Oh yeah, there's a van, and
now we're continuing on."

You know, just something by way of,
Mm … collaborative scene setting So

welcoming, connect and then direct.

That's how I…

That's the meme that I put to this.

Connect and then direct, rather
than just direct, come in straight.

Also, try to reduce your intensity.

Less intensity elements are noise,
movement, operation towards the animal.

So one of the reasons that the signals
in modern world are so strong associated

with people is, like you said, there's
a one, one-hour window, and it's all

about what you're gonna do for me.

Whereas in the past, there was all
this sort of diffuse moseying energy

that the people would put into the
scenario, and the reason that that's

habituating or desensitizing is
that it's not directed towards them.

So if it's not directed towards
me, it has less salience.

It has less meaning.

Yeah.

And that means it's less frightening.

So if you're gonna direct your energy
towards them, do so consciously,

thoughtfully, carefully, slowly.

Start at a distance.

Announce you're coming.

You know, s- explain
what's about to happen.

Break it into slightly smaller steps.

I'm not saying, like, go to the, go
to the town on every tiny detail, but

that process that I'm describing is
called systematic desensitization.

The more aroused, the more frightened
the animal is, the more the, the

smaller steps, the smaller respectful
stimulus steps are helpful to them.

And the other thing it does is keep them
in the right mood state, because the, the

worst thing that you can have happen is a
sensitizing effect, where, you know, now

you've got an aroused neurologic state.

And now the glasses you're
wearing are pessimistic.

They're frightened.

So if you come in with too much i-
inconsiderate or thoughtless kind of

approach to someone who is not robust,
then you can accidentally sensitize them

and create a whole agenda that you don't
want, because the animal's now a little

bit on fire, a little bit suspicious.

Their heart rate is up.

Mm.

They're upset.

So those are some,
those are some thoughts.

Rupert Isaacson: As you know, if
you followed any of my work, I'm

an autism dad and we have a whole
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Let us know how it goes for you.

We really want to know.

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Jenifer Zeligs: Those

Rupert Isaacson: are great, great answers.

I…

And I was thinking as you you know, a
lot of examples and scenarios go running

through my mind, and of course, one of
them is so I ended up in this problem.

When I moved to Germany I had to
keep my horses in a stable for the

first time, not at my own place
with my own fields and my own- Mm

because of, you know, this
reason and that reason.

So, Up until that point, I had only
seen the keeping of animals through the

lens of having complete control of the
environment that my animals were in.

Because we didn't just like in, in
Texas, we didn't just have horses.

At New Trails, our center where we were
working with, particularly with autism,

we had tame deer, we had goats, we had
wallabies, we had porcupines for a while.

We had- Mm … these
animals show up, you know?

We had cavies.

We had coati mundis.

We had- Ooh … also, yeah,
really, those are interesting.

Jenifer Zeligs: Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

You want to meet an intelligent animal.

And o- so we were constantly,
you know, interacting in this

way, and so on and so on.

And the horses all lived out.

It's a relatively benign climate.

You know, we did, we had this
big barn, but we never used it-

Mm … unless there was, like, some
extreme weather event or something.

And then I get to this place
in Germany, and the horses,

like, have to live in stables.

Occasionally they go out a bit, but
not really, and not like before.

And I'm like, "Okay, how am I gonna
meet the needs of these animals?"

So we had to come up with all
these, If you like agendas of no

agenda so for example, we came
up with the idea of crazy time.

So we have quite fiery horses.

They need to move a lot.

Mm-hmm.

And particularly in the winter in here,
they don't want muddy field, so they

don't let you put your horses on the
field in the winter, so which means they

put them out in what they call a paddock.

It's not really a paddock.

It's just kind of like some muddy
area where they stand around, and they

don't even really have a round bail.

I'm like, "Okay, this is not good.

I need to do something about this."

And if, if it's that or I'm working the
horse or it's standing in the stable, no.

No, no, no.

So what do they need?

Okay, they need their friends, they
need to move around, they need to play.

Horses are playful, as
you say, seeking curious.

So we came up with this idea of
crazy time, where we would just let

them loose in the arena, and we'd
have all kinds of obstacles set up.

Yeah.

But very wide.

So they were hard to avoid, but
you could avoid them, but you had

to be quite creative about it.

And we would let them play in a
social group, depending on the size

of arena, between, say, two and five.

And provided you didn't let horses bunch
up in a corner together, where they can

sometimes get a bit naughty with each
other, or at least not until a certain

number of endorphins had kicked in.

And then if they bunch up, they'd
be like, "Okay, well, here we are."

We realized that we could really
engage their curiosity by giving them

a whole bunch of problems to solve.

I didn't care- Mm … whether
they jumped the jumps.

It was like I would just take them into
a a playground, like taking a kid into

a playground, and saying, "I'm not gonna
tell you how to go down the slide or

that you must go down the slide, and
then go on the climbing frame, and you

must do your climbing frame like this."

No, no.

Interact.

You show me what you want.

But of course, they, they'd run
around and have all sorts of fun.

And then about every two
minutes, I'd change it.

So, and they would got to know this,
and so they would see the pattern,

and they'd stop and look at me
and go like, "That all you got?"

And then I'd be like, "No, actually."

And then I'd make them all zigzags.

Or I'd make them all wonky, or I'd put
big teddy bears and yoga balls- … in

the middle of the thing and chuck
the yoga ball at them or what…

And then they, "Whey," off they go again.

And, and then after about 20 minutes
usually, they'd sort of look at

me and go, "Right, we're done."

And, or if they wanted to, like,
wander off and browse if it was the

outside arena, totally fine with that.

It was the inside arena if they just
wanted to kind of take a break, have

a shit, have a roll, y- you know.

And we began to teach our clients this.

Mm.

And we watched the
interactions with the clients.

We, we were teaching a
lot of classical dressage.

We watched all their dressage get
better because the relationship

between the monkeys and the ponies
became more joyous, I suppose.

Jenifer Zeligs: Yeah.

And the mood of the ponies
was positive … indeed.

Rupert Isaacson: And the mood of
the people, because it is hard

not to take pleasure in watching
a bunch of horses have fun, right?

Jenifer Zeligs: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: However, we then still
had the problem that, okay, Jennifer,

you've got a horse, and I'm your
riding teacher, so, you know, we've

got a, an, a an appointment at 5:00.

We're gonna meet.

You've rushed back from work.

And I need to give you your money's worth.

I'm charging X per hour.

So I can't say, "Well, actually,
Jennifer, we're not gonna do anything

today 'cause your, I think your
horse just needs to, you know, run

about or, or just be scratched."

We have to do the thing.

So then I had to figure out, how do I
make doing the thing feel like, or as

close as possible to, leisure time?

And what I realized, it was just
all about taking tons of breaks.

Hmm.

If we were in a covered arena, say, at
night after dark, you know, and it's

icy outside, and so we're in that arena.

What if we wanted to work
on this dressage thing?

Then I might have, like, labyrinths and
so on built up within the arena, and we

might do like three minutes of that thing,
and then go and play in the labyrinth.

Mm-hmm.

And, or then, or hang.

And then we'd do three minutes of
this thing, and then we'd hang.

And what we saw was that the actual
development of the horse's dressage and

the rider's dressage actually accelerated.

Because what happened was
it, tension didn't creep in.

You know?

Yeah.

If you, if you spend an hour, hammer,
hammer, hammer, hammer, hammer

the horse and the human, you know,
build tension and build tension, and

eventually it's just like a blur.

And sometimes it can even
set the thing backwards.

So, but it was really interesting to
have to solve these problems because it

was a, a really un-ideal environment.

You've worked in a lot of zoos, and,
well, zoos are getting a lot better.

Now I'd say zoos, many zoos are
sort of cutting edge conservation,

you know, organizations that, you
know, involved in rewilding and

reintroduction and so on and so on.

Animal welfare is much, much better
than it was when we were kids.

When you were first going into enclosures
back in the National Zoo when you

were a kid, I'm sure that some of
those enclosures were not optimal, and

I'm sure that some of the conditions
on which the animals were kept were

not as optimal as perhaps today.

How did you, in those days, do
the equivalent of what we were

having to do in that German stable?

How do you make the non-optimal
as optimal as you can?

Jenifer Zeligs: Well, it's interesting
because it so what I, what was coming

up for me as I'm listening to you is
one of the mood setting sort of basic…

There's sort of two primary interventions
that you can do to shift mood.

Behavioral enrichment and environmental
enrichment is the two, the, the

kind of terms that people use.

And behavioral enrichment would
be specific training that involves

Attractive experiences.

And environmental enrichment involves
engaging natural behaviors through

environmental arrangements and setting
up the environment to feel stimulating

so that the needs are being met.

And environmental enrichment, I think,
is way, way more well explored in

the zoo and aquarium industry than it
is, I'm sorry, in the horse industry.

Oh, I'm sure.

Now partly- Sure … the horse world you
can put your animals out to pasture, but

how many animals are not out to pasture,
and how much environmental enrichment?

I mean, what you described was kind
of a perfect example of exactly

what I would suggest someone to do.

And in fact, if you had paused and said,
I wish we had done this experiment.

If you had paused and said, "I
ha- I have them in a, you know,

effectively a concrete box.

What do I do?"

I would say, we have to come up with
environmental and behavioral enrichment

strategies that will provide the, the
same kind of stimulation that they

were able to get free browsing, moving
around in a dynamic wild environment.

Mm-hmm.

And things that people need to do are
social interaction for social species

and and yeah, and ways of exploring
challenges in the environment.

Safe feeling challenges, though.

You also need to know your individual
and know what their history is

and don't bomb 'em with stuff.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

But at the same time, the o- the
sort of opportunity for free play.

The other thing that you mentioned
was many small training sessions.

This is empirical in
the behavioral sciences.

We know that this is the
better learning system.

It is one of the things that's brought up
with school children, and it's, it's well

documented in the animal training field.

And it is actually one of the things
that drives me crazy when I work

in the horse world because it's the
one field where people really don't

seem to get this, because they're
used to going for very long rides.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Jenifer Zeligs: So it does
feel like that's an important

message to bring out there.

You can get, you can
get more accomplished.

More is not always more.

Mm.

And you know it's not for yourself, too.

D- a lot of times, you know, lots of
small units of, of learning opportunity

and then digestion, integration from
a neuroscience standpoint- Right

getting that information in.

Yeah.

How many times have you done a
training session, the animal's left

in a certain place- But then the
next time you come back, it's like

they've thought about it or something.

Yeah.

And now they're exhibiting that behavior
all of a sudden at an even better level.

The horse is, is suddenly piaffing
more perfectly, more consistently,

i- in a situat- you know, going
to the left, going to the right,

where they didn't do it before.

Mm.

And you were at the threshold of
that, but now weirdly it's here.

Mm.

And, you know, in the same way that we
sleep and dream our way into integrative

understanding of stuff, so do animals.

Mm.

Mm.

So there is a really
empirical element to that.

And then, and then what, the third
thing you said was there are other

kinds of motivators out there.

So people tend to use rest as a motivator
for horses, but there's, there's not,

that's- You know, the impli- White board.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah

… Jenifer Zeligs: the implication of
that is is not good in the long term.

Like, less of me is better,
that's what you're saying there.

Less of us is better.

So what about instead of you…

Instead what you did, was you recreated
variable reinforcement, which by the

way is a very important strategy that
we use in all sorts of other animals,

pretty much every one other than horses.

Which is, it's not, it's, it's not as
fun to only get reinforced in one way.

It's more interesting to have variety.

Variety is the spice of…

So in motivation, you want variety.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Jenifer Zeligs: And in
communication, you want consistency.

Those are two different things.

So you want some- you wanna be clearly
understood and predictable in, in the

sense of communication, but you wanna be
dynamic in the sense of what drives you.

And so what happens in these small
sessions that you're doing, a small

session, take a break, have a play with
this environmental enrichment, now you're

operating a different reinforcer for…

And it applies to what you just did.

It's like, "We're gonna do this,"
and then you get an opportunity.

And everything that you do with your
animals can be a reinforcing opportunity.

Anything they wanna engage in, placing
that after the perfect pee off or whatever

it is that you're doing mobilizes the,
the better pee off for, for the future.

You know, the very last thing
you do is the best whatever

move, and then out to pasture.

You know, no break, just straight out
to the thing you're looking forward to.

Use what…

Or the access to the, to the woman or the
man or, or your, your daughter or whatever

the thing is that that animal's starting
to get loaded and wanting to do, make that

accessible as a result of the successful
small unit of behavior that you just did.

Not 10 minutes and then
that, but immediately that.

Set that up as a, as a
paradigm, as a contingency.

Because what you start to do then is,
is you start to mobilize the things that

interest them as a, as a component of
your cooperation, your mutual experience.

We do this, then you get your that.

You know, I, I know you,
I know what you want.

You want this.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Absolutely, and what you want, as you
say, it, it's interesting you bring

up the idea of variety, and it's
interesting that you bring up the

idea of people are used to long rides.

So of course, there's a huge difference
between, say, a long trail ride.

You can trail ride all day.

Horse is extremely happy because
they're exploring the landscape,

they're moving through the landscape.

They're curious, they're
checking stuff out.

You know, they're, they're in their
environment, and they're moving gently,

and it's, it's, it's all wonderful.

There's no pressure, really.

Jenifer Zeligs: Yeah,
it's not too precise.

Rupert Isaacson: Right, and you can…

And horses travel.

It's one of the things that they do.

Right.

They're nomadic animals.

Jenifer Zeligs: Yeah, fair enough

… Rupert Isaacson: show me a horse
that doesn't like a trail ride.

Jenifer Zeligs: Yeah, yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: The- Gotcha … so you
can, you can do that the whole day without

putting undue emotional stress on a
horse, but you can put massive emotional

undue stress on a horse in 15 minutes
of arena work- Yeah … if it's not

done in the way that you're suggesting.

And then, you know, I was just thinking
as you said, "Yeah, why do people

ham around the arena for an hour?"

And say, "Oh, well, yeah, of
course, because they inherited

it from the military."

That was- Mm … what military riding
lessons looked like because, And most

people, most riding schools when I was
a boy were run by ex-cavalry officers.

It's what they did when they retired.

It was the same in the
US a lot of the time.

Mm … or they were the families
of people who'd been military.

And in the military, you drill people.

Do, do, do, do, do, and you drill horses.

Yeah.

But what was often forgotten- Mm … about
the military way of doing it is the

horses are actually only in barracks for a
certain amount of time And then they would

go on maneuvers or on campaign frequently,
and they would also go on fitness

marches, roads and tracks every day.

So they weren't actually, even if
they were stabled, even if they were

stabled the entire time they were
going out usually like, rather like

polo ponies, ride one, lead two, ride
one, lead three- Mm … out through

the local countryside, forest, town,
by checking stuff out all together.

Not much pressure there.

Mm.

Then they would come in and maybe
do their sessions with the raw

recruits, where everyone's yelling
and falling off, okay, fine.

But then they also go out on maneuvers
where they live out in the field tied

to picket lines all together, and they
have to not kick the shit out of each

other, which means they have to actually
be turned out together quite a lot.

And I picked up the old German HDB 12
military manual the other day to do a, a

review of it for one of our other YouTube
channels, and I had trouble with the

book just because there was … It had
been, the last e- edition had been done

by someone who had fought in the German
cavalry during World War II, and there

were all these pictures of blokes in Ge-
German uniforms, like, and just imagining

my Jewish forebears seeing that come out.

You know, and it's like, yeah, yeah.

So I struggled with it a bit, but
there, there was a lot of really

good horsemanship in there where
they were saying things like, "When

you're training your horses, don't
just do it in arenas that are flat.

Do it in arenas that are
on a 10-degree slope."

Horses learn proprioception that way.

You're gonna need that in battle, by
the way, and it's just more interesting.

Yeah.

And, and it's all of this stuff
about turning them out and doing

all that fitness work and all of
that social time and all of that

downtime as part of the work was
actually all in that military manual.

Yeah.

And then the, the civilian riding school
largely took only the arena bit And

let the kind of rest go because bums on
seats, bums in saddles is going to pay

for your business and your livelihood.

And then suddenly we end up in the
situations that we're talking about

now that are, as you say, not ideal.

Now when, a lot of this is also about
managing human expectation, right?

I definitely lost clients because
I said, "We're gonna work this

way, and are you okay with this?

Oh, and by the way, as soon as the
weather is in any way clement, which

includes rain, we are going to work
outside, and we're going to work in the

forest because horses like it there,
and it's just better for everybody."

So I got people who said,
"No, I'm not gonna do that."

And I got people who said,
"No, y- there are too many of

these little breaks, Rupert.

I want to work on my," da,
da, da, da, da, you know?

And, but, you know, more people
certainly went for it because

they saw the practical benefits.

But it's very interesting how, how
do you manage the expectations?

So, you know, particularly also
for you, you're working, say,

in zoo environments as well.

I'm, I, I imagine that you do run into
human expectations where people are very

much in a certain neural pathway, and they
haven't really expanded outside of that.

And you have to try to work with the
human because you're not gonna work at

that zoo 24/7 for the next 30 years.

You have to go in and show those pe- you
have to show those people with that horse.

What are the tools that you use to
help people to expand their monkey

comfort zone with this stuff, let
alone the animals, so that they can

actually implement what you're saying?

Jenifer Zeligs: I
struggle with that a lot.

I, I have to tell you.

I you know, so I immediately
think, "Where's David?

David understands this better."

I, I have not spent a huge amount of my
time in the private industry, you know,

the, the companion animal industry.

Working with professional trainers,
they usually have a lot more field

of interest and flexibility of mind.

They're curi- you know, they're
working on cutting-edge problems, and

they understand cutting-edge problems
requires creative beginner's mind.

That's what we would say
in Buddhism, you know?

In the expert's mind, the
possibilities are limited.

In the beginner's mind, in the
beginner's mind, they are unlimited.

Or I…

Let's see, what's the actual quote?

In the-

In the beginner's mind, the
possibilities are unlimited, and

in the expert's mind, they are few.

And what we wanna do is keep a, and,
and that is a ding on people who…

so I may have just kind of muddled
this idea, but it's a ding on thinking,

you know, you're the professor and
you know, and it's this one way, and I

have this agenda, and blah, blah, blah.

And the when you really get into the
creative exploration, the science of

things, people who are trying to solve
problems that nobody else really solved

very well before, you start bringing in…

I mean, what you're doing, for
example, is, is creatively looking

back at, like, well, in the past,
they didn't have these problems.

So, you know, that's one of the
things I hear you doing, is you're,

you're sort of reflecting on what
was it about that scenario that's

different than this scenario?

And, and it's op- it opens your mind And
I do that by going between disciplines.

I do that by going between species.

So how do you open someone's mind so
that the possibilities are unlimited?

I think all all behavior
is a study of one.

So it hugely depends on who you're
talking to and what their agenda is.

Trying to do the same thing,
understand what their needs are,

understand what's standing in their
way, understand what their values

are, what do they value, and a lot of
times you can find something in there.

I always did it as well, I had these
incredible animals where I was literally

speaking to them using words, verbs,
nouns, you know adjectives, and the animal

could, was interested and could follow
me, and could go out into their natural

environment, into the open ocean, and
do things like film whales, you know?

Not something a sea lion thinks to do.

You release them into their natural
environment, you think they're

gonna just, you know, swim away.

This is where other sea lions live.

So when you start showing someone
that, like, here's the realm of

what's really possible, so you have
these incredible animals, so like

you said, David Lichman, or I'm sure
yourself, you've got animals where

you can show, look, when you approach
things in this way, this is my lived

experience, you get these better results.

So that's one, one method.

Another method is to model it for them.

Like, do to them what they're
suggesting you do to the animal.

Make some kind of lived experience
out of it so that they can develop

the empathy that they're not…

This is a theory of mind
issue to a certain extent.

It's like, why-

Rupert Isaacson: Can you
explain what theory of mind is?

'Cause this is big for
us in the autism world.

But I think it's, theory of mind
is a much misunderstood concept.

Can you just quickly explain
what you mean by theory of mind?

I think it'll help people
understand what you're saying.

Jenifer Zeligs: Theory of mind is the
ability to maintain an understanding

that what you know and think is different
than what someone else knows and thinks

So that you don't accidentally ascribe
to them your motives and understanding.

Most importantly, your understanding.

You know, because you understand something
doesn't mean someone else understands it.

It may seem completely obvious to you,
but theory of mind is to kind of grasp

and be curious about what the precursors
of that other's experience is like.

What does their behavior indicate
in terms of their comfort level,

their interest, their understanding?

So if that's a horse,
where are they looking?

Where are their ears going?

What are they smelling?

What, what is their kind of general
approach to the circumstance?

Because you understand
that's just a plastic bag.

Do they understand that?

You know, are they, like, suddenly
looking askance at the plastic bag?

Do, you know…

They have a different
level of understanding.

An animal has inherently a lot
less understanding and a, a, you

know, interprets the things that
are happening in a different way.

And so somehow you have to mobilize
the ability to kind of keep your

understanding and their understanding
as two subsets of what's happening.

Like, you have a model in your head.

You have your own understanding, and
you have the understanding of the other.

And what you're trying to do is
create an overlapping Venn diagram

of those two things so that you can
interact effectively Did that help?

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
that was beautifully put.

Okay, so now I'd like you to tell us
the story, please, of how you used

these verbs and adjectives to train
a sea lion to go and film whales-

with no direct intervention from you.

And then when you've done that- Ah.

Jenifer Zeligs: Oh, well

… Rupert Isaacson: I'm then gonna ask
if we can bring that back to horses

and say, "Well, what can we learn?

How can we apply some of those things?"

Okay, so tell us the story.

How did you, how did you do that?

Jenifer Zeligs: Man, that's a long…

There, there's a lot of
issues associated with- It's

Rupert Isaacson: a long format podcast.

Please, tell us.

Jenifer Zeligs: Well, there's
a lot of issues associated with

going out and filming whales.

There, and, and one of the fundamental
kind of ways of sort of breaking this

into buckets is when you have any
task that you have, you can break that

down into, does the animal want to do
it, does the horse want to do it, and

can I, how do I explain it to them?

So that's, I call that
communication and motivation.

And you can break your
tools down that way.

So an adjective, a verb a noun, those
would all be communication tools.

They're descriptive tools.

Language is a way of
explaining to someone an idea.

It's not a perfect way,
though, by the way.

There is no perfect way.

But the, the, the, the game is won and
lost in the motivational side of things.

Do they, do they want
what you have to offer?

Do they care?

Are they interested and willing?

And then, what are the
competing motivators?

Because that's often the screen, you
know, this kind of mood-based situation.

"I'd love to help you out there, Jen.

I'd really like to go out and do this
perfect sequence of dressage moves

for you, but you don't understand.

There is a radical bad smell or
a a wild-looking something in the

environment, and that has more
what we would call salience to me."

It's more important.

It suggests, oh, death,
or I don't know what.

Or maybe mating is on, you know.

I- you can, you can get
either side of this.

Yeah.

So you get these masking motivators.

In the case of going out to s-
to film whales the an- the sea

lions were naturally actually
very afraid of the ocean.

We had to spend an enormous amount of
time encouraging them, "No, no, no.

It's fine."

They're like, "No, Jen,
we were out here before.

It sucked.

We were starving.

There were killer whales.

There were sharks.

It's deep.

It's dark.

I like, I like where we live.

It's nicer."

But, but to this wild- "I get
to try things all the time.

I feel safe."

Yeah, but with- "I don't
feel safe" … with the

Rupert Isaacson: wild sea
lions, not- captive-bred ones.

These were ones who had
experienced the world.

Jenifer Zeligs: Yeah,
they were all stranders.

So they had come in for because
of health reasons, they couldn't-

Okay … survive in the wild.

So they all had a bad
experience with the- And

Rupert Isaacson: they decided they
liked it at Uncle Jen's house.

Jenifer Zeligs: Well, I worked
hard to make that the case.

They all, they usually- But
did, did you want to do that?

… came in going, "Oh, Jesus,
I don't know about this."

And then they went, "You know what?

This is actually working out.

I'm feeling good about this."

Rupert Isaacson: Was this in Monterey?

Jenifer Zeligs: Sorry?

In Monterey.

This was in Monterey.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Which, again, for listeners who, who
don't know the coast of California,

Monterey is south of San Francisco, and
it's a massive kelp forest off the coast.

And it's known for massive biodiversity.

There's a huge the, the aquarium
there, and lots of studies get done

there, and there's all sorts of
marine life there because there's

so much food sort of in that ocean.

Okay, so you're there in Monterey.

These, these s- sea
lions have been stranded.

They're saying, "It sucked out
there," and you want me to go

out there again into scary land.

And you say, "Well, yeah, I do, actually,
and I want you to do this thing," which

is an entirely monkey agenda, which
is to- Yes … swim with the whales-

Yes … and swim close to them for-
… unspecified reasons so that this thing

that I strap to your body can film these
large animals while you're worried about

great white sharks, which exist a lot
on that coast, and things like that.

So okay.

So how do you begin?

Jenifer Zeligs: So we, what we
did was the actual explanation of

the behavior involved us teaching
the animals to wear harnesses

which is like getting in a saddle.

And on the, the harness we would put
a video camera, and this was back in a

day when initially there were no digital
cameras, so these cameras were huge.

And then we, we used the first Sony
digital video cameras that ever existed.

Sony sent them to us.

But it, it … Unfortunately,
we never got to that GoPro stage

'cause it was, it … You know.

But anyways, National Geographic,
it was a really amazing experience.

But the cameras were pretty large.

So they had to wear these giant
cameras on their backs, and then

they just had to orient towards
the, and just follow the whales.

That was their job.

And what we did was we broke
the experience of, of first

the, the behavior of follow.

If you think of, like, a dog heeling
we, we sort of, we, we sort of trained

that without the, without the leash.

So we trained it as- With you

Rupert Isaacson: in a boat,
and them following the boat?

Jenifer Zeligs: We started with
follow a human walking around.

Then we, we went to follow a, a captive
dolphin swimming around the pool.

Then we built a model whale.

Rupert Isaacson: I was
gonna ask if you did that.

Jenifer Zeligs: And we dragged
the model whale behind a boat

And we taught them to
go next to the whale.

Okay.

And then we transferred this
to w- the same behavior.

So we generalized the behavior.

We took it to to different scenarios.

We said, "Oh, here's that behavior
like this, here's that behavior like

this, here's that behavior like this."

Same behavior, now applied
to that giant thing.

And you know, it took lots of trials.

And, and certainly they they didn't feel
as good about getting close to the whales.

And the whales also were like hmm, I
think maybe we'll, we'll bug out of here."

So it was actually a twofer problem.

Like, it wasn't like the, the
whales were sort of just like,

"Oh yeah, we'll hang around."

The one time that whales really did hang
around and we got a, like a big group of

them, there were three humpback whales
that surrounded the boat within like

a, I don't know, a 10-foot distance.

I mean, it was intimidating.

These are like 50, 60-foot-long animals.

And the sea lions went
like, "Jen, I don't know.

They've got us surrounded.

I think I just wanna sit in my cage.

I wanna go home."

And, and we kept going, "No, come on.

Go on.

This is the moment.

Go swim with those whales."

And they're like, "They
have us surrounded, Jen.

I don't know."

And so they bugged out, and they swam
20 miles home to the, to their pen on

the ocean, which is where they lived.

And then it turned out that the reason
the whales were surrounding the boat

was killer whales were coming in

Killer whales eat whales.

They also eat sea lions.

So it was, the sea lion,
like, really tried.

He really, he was like, "Gah,
this is not working for me.

You don't understand.

This is just not right."

And we were not listening.

We were not listening because we
were having, like, a euphoric whale

experience, and it was a good example
of having too strong an agenda.

You know, literally sea lion could
have been eaten in that scenario.

But anyways, we lost the sea lion
for an entire day while he had

to swim 20 miles to get home.

It was traumatic for everyone.

He was exhausted.

When he finally found us
again, he jumped into my boat.

We found him 'cause we had an
underwater speaker and were calling.

And he jumped, he came out of
nowhere, jumped into the boat, and,

like, passed out from exhaustion.

Broke my foot jumping into
the boat when suddenly just,

like, landed on top of my foot.

Anyways I don't know if I answered
the question, but it's a good

Rupert Isaacson: anecdote.

You did, you did.

And, and it brings, so a couple
of other questions came up.

In that scenario with the humpback
whales surrounding the boat so

close, they c- they clustered like
that around your boat because they

were protecting you and your boat?

Or you and your boat just
happened to be in the middle of

their cluster, that they were-

Jenifer Zeligs: I think they they
thought the boat would be a good place…

I mean, I don't…

We didn't- Like, what,
what was it about the

Rupert Isaacson: boat that made
the whales corral the boat?

Jenifer Zeligs: We, we
did not have interspecies

Rupert Isaacson: communication.

Sorry?

Jenifer Zeligs: Sorry.

I can't speak for the whales.

I'll tell you what my theory is.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

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my work, we are also horsey folk here.

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many, many years in the manner of

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Jenifer Zeligs: My theory is that they
they, they felt that this would be a, a

reasonable place to to hide for safety.

That the boat itself was a very large
object that might kinda present enough

of a breakup or a strange element
in the environment that the whales,

the killer whales might not choose
to go for them in that scenario.

A big, hard, you know, what did you say?

It's like a tank.

Yeah.

It's an ocean tank.

Rupert Isaacson: So a little bit like
clustering around a big rock or something,

Jenifer Zeligs: where you- Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Okay, okay, interesting.

And the killer whales would've
been after their young?

Would've been after them, the large ones?

Jenifer Zeligs: Yeah, both.

Both-

Rupert Isaacson:
Yes … both of the above.

The orcas can-

Jenifer Zeligs: Both of the above

… Rupert Isaacson: orcas can
take down an adult humpback?

Jenifer Zeligs: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Wow.

Jenifer Zeligs: I mean, I don't think
it's their first go-to choice, but

yeah, it must have been that, that at
least one of these animals was younger.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Jenifer Zeligs: I don't know.

The behavior of the humpbacks was strange.

We all thought it, and it
coincided with incoming orcas.

And I don't know.

I do not think that the, that the…

I doubt that the motive of
the whales was, "Oh, we'll

protect you from these killers."

That, that would be a
bit of a stretch for me.

It, it's, it's the kind of thing that
people like to romanticize as far as the

Rupert Isaacson: story, but- Well,
indeed, and that's why I have to ask,

I have to v- vocalize the question.

But In, in the course of sort of debunking
that, it's interesting to sort of go

to, "Well then, in that case, why?

Why, why choose that?

Why choose the boat?"

But I could see maybe they saw it perhaps
as some sort of defensive structure.

Yeah, maybe as you suggest.

Interesting.

All right.

So all these variables.

You, you got the sea lion going out
there and he's saying, "You know, Mum,

there's not just killer whales out
there, there's great white sharks."

We know that the California
coast has a lot of those.

Not to mention all sorts of other things.

How did you use … You talked about verbs
and adjectives- … and complex language.

How did that come into the whole process?

Jenifer Zeligs: Sorry, yeah.

Thank you for, for coming back to that.

So they would have had a
verb that said, "Go follow."

They would have had an identifier,
like, "Go follow," noun.

Or, "Go follow that."

Which would have been based on this idea
of targeting, like orient towards object.

So they had an understanding
of this concept of targeting.

Mm.

To target.

But they … It … A target
is both a verb and a noun.

It is an object and an action.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

Jenifer Zeligs: So they would have … We
would have had language around that.

We would have had language around
"That's correct," "Speed up," "You're

done," "Stay there," "Continue."

Sounds a lot

Rupert Isaacson: like training
border collies to work with sheep.

Jenifer Zeligs: What's that?

Rupert Isaacson: Sounds a lot
like training border collies-

Jenifer Zeligs: Yeah

… Rupert Isaacson: to work with sheep.

Yeah.

Jenifer Zeligs: Yeah.

And this particular example is extremely
border collie-esque, in a sense.

Except … Yeah, I mean, it is.

It is really.

Yeah.

It is really.

We had to give them- Like in
that data measurement company

more autonomy for the job because-
Right … we couldn't see what

they were doing all the time.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

In the same way that, you know, you might
have to … And with hunting hounds, you

know, you, you might have to send them
off into dense thickets two kilometers

away from you, where they can't see you.

You've got the horn, you've got
your voice, you've got a whip crack,

you've got some ways of communicating
over distance, but there's also got

to be a kind of a consistency to

If we say, "Go over there and try
and do this thing," that they're

not going to just run to Kansas.

Yeah, yeah.

Or run after the wrong
game or eat somebody's cat.

Yes.

I … It, it's interesting.

It starts to put the pieces into
my mind, and it's … it takes me

back to this idea of, well, in, in
olden days, you know, I was lucky.

I grew up, say, for example, with hunting
hounds and having to … And then you,

you learned that there was, like, this
type of hound- Was very, very independent

and you would use that in a mountain
scenario where you would automatically

lose contact with your hounds.

But then there's other types of hound
that you might use if you, like, around

roads, which are more, we'd say biddable
which are more looking to you, Mm

for direction.

They're not gonna just go off
on something that even when

the, the scent is really strong.

Like a bloodhound would do that.

And suddenly what you suggested
about doing this with these sea lions

suddenly made an intuitive sense
where I could say, "Oh, I see…

I, I sort of see how
that could be possible."

You'd need to know a lot more, but
I can see how it could be possible.

All right.

Now, if you were to take that scenario
the sea lions into the ocean to film the

whales, the use of the verbal language in
a border collie-ish sort of a way to, and

say, how does that apply, say, to horses?

What could you take from that?

Because of course, of course they
think in a very different way, right?

They don't have the same cogni- cognitive
universe that a sea lion or a dog does.

Which I think those animals
think a little bit more like us.

A lot of people can sort of somewhat
intuitively train a dog because dogs

and humans aren't so far apart in the
way that they int- interpret the world.

But horses really are.

If you were to, if you were giving a,
an animal behavior clinic workshop right

now, and you had all these horse people,
and they say, "Well, how does that st-

that's a wonderful story, Jennifer.

We really respect that you could do that,
but how, how does that apply to us?"

Jenifer Zeligs: I guess the first
thing is it just tells you the the

expanding l- limits of poten- you know,
the expanding unlimited potential.

Because your examples with dogs
are on target except the one thing

is that you're relying on a kind
of natural history link to it.

Yeah.

Right?

That that's an animal who's got a
kind of an ethological inclination

in this direction that you're
operationalizing, which I'm not saying

there's anything wrong with that.

That's great.

That's a smart use of you know, some
natural motivators and inclinations.

But what I'm saying is I took someone
who had no inclination whatsoever.

Mm-hmm.

I created language and motive And,
and broke it down and explained it

over time, and they were willing
to collaborate on this crazy…

I mean, we didn't just do this.

We also did underwater archeology.

You know, we had them
running transect lines.

Simple behaviors, okay?

They're not that complicated when you
actually think of what the behavior is.

Go t- go follow that.

And, and, you know, it might be the same,

so cutting horses,

Rupert Isaacson: Mm, mm, mm, mm.

Yeah, it's all questions

… Jenifer Zeligs: stay with,

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah

… Jenifer Zeligs: you know.

So what, what it is is- Other times.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah.

Yeah

… Jenifer Zeligs: you're breaking the
behavior down into its unit pieces, and

then coming up with both an incentive-

Rupert Isaacson: Mm

… Jenifer Zeligs: to care and
be interested and be dynamic.

The more interested the animal is in
collaborating, cooperating, the bigger

you can make the potential behavior.

The more sexy, the more crazy.

And, and like, David has taken
this, this kind of framework

to- towards liberty, you know?

Because you, you rely so much on gear
in the horse world, which is, you know,

kind of an, an imposed constraint.

But what's possible to do when you
don't have any mechanism to force them?

Mm.

So how do you use your mind to
connect with their mind and still

have this incredibly dynamic
potential between the two of you?

That, that, that doesn't
mean you can't do.

It means you could actually
do more because it's, it's

we're both on board for this.

But, but you have to change the
framework where you're interested in

in really explaining it to them and
breaking it down, and that's where

it starts to feel very collaborative.

Gets addictive because both
parties are getting quite a lot

out of the playfulness of this.

Yeah.

The animals have a lot of joy
in getting to do these things.

They, they, they show up and wonder what
the next thing is gonna be, just like when

you were altering their environment, like
they started to get your, your number.

It's like, ooh, there's gonna
be something spontane- you

know, something unusual here.

The chance to do something new, to,
to, to stretch, to be challenged,

that's quite interesting.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's interesting.

It seems that all mammals need this
whether they're prey species or,

or predator species, that- There's
no mammal I can think of that

doesn't get sort of depressed if
they don't have a sense of growth.

And I guess that must be because the
wild just demands that of you, right?

In a, in a normal- Yeah … planet
Earth environment, which is not Monkey

World monkeys might be involved,
but not designing the whole thing.

It's a constant set of
developmental challenges, isn't it?

That, so that it must be built in to
us, all of us mammalian organisms,

to seek that to some degree.

And if we lack that, to feel the lack
no matter how- Yeah … comfortable

our lives might be, the sedentary
human that we can- We can choose

not to move now if we want to.

We can just have our
entertainment brought to us.

We can have our food brought to us.

Like, this chair that I'm sitting
in, if it had a hole in the bottom

connected to plumbing, I just
wouldn't have to move, you know?

But except internally.

Jenifer Zeligs: Oh,

Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

That's the first time in
human history that's, that's

actually been a possibility.

I don't think it's good for us.

We know this.

Why would it be good for other animals?

Why wouldn't it be good for,
for them, just like us, to

stretch and grow and develop?

I think we do observe this.

You talked about…

Okay, you've talked about-

Jenifer Zeligs: Wait,

Rupert Isaacson: wait.

Yes.

Jenifer Zeligs: Wait.

I have a term for that.

It's called- Okay … contra freeloading.

Rupert Isaacson: One more time.

Jenifer Zeligs: Contra freeloading.

Rupert Isaacson: What does that mean?

Jenifer Zeligs: It means that organisms
are animals, horses, dogs, humans,

were were evolved t- exactly f- for
survival reasons, exactly like you

describe, were evolved not to…

So freeloading would just be all other
things being equal, the animal would

prefer the f- the food just comes in
and they don't have to do anything.

But actually, that's not true.

A lot of science demonstrates that
the animal that gets a opportunity

to use their species-appropriate
adaptations to get the food is

critical to their wellbeing.

We're es- we're established
around that paradigm because

it would have caused us to die.

We wouldn't have survived.

If we, if we had a basic desire
to just sit around and do nothing,

that wouldn't work in the wild.

So we're, we're built for contra
freeloading, the opposite of freeloading.

Rupert Isaacson: Is contra freeloading a,
a Jennifer Zelig's term, or is that like-

Jenifer Zeligs: No, no, no

it's

Rupert Isaacson: it's

Jenifer Zeligs: something-
Biologic ethological term.

Rupert Isaacson: Fantastic.

You also used another term, and some
people know what it means and some don't.

You used ethology.

What, what is ethology?

Jenifer Zeligs: It's the study of animal
behavior, but i- it usually applies, like,

ecological settings, so wild type behavior
as opposed to behavior that you wanna

modify or psychological applications.

So sort of in its own, in its
own state animal behavior.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

And,

Jenifer Zeligs: Sorry, I interrupted
you, but that was such a good-

No, no, you, you I have a- … no,
it's okay … I had an animal that

Rupert Isaacson: was- I'm, I'm, I'm
sort of going, I'm, I'm feeling my way

towards, 'cause there's just so many
interesting places to go with this.

We're gonna have to have a second
and a third conversation, I can tell.

'Cause I can also see how, for example,
le- let's say it's horses or dogs or

even sea lions, that you've got, like,
these different species of sea lion.

You've got these different types of dog.

You've got these
different breeds of horse.

And so a lot of things are s- like
fairly specific to one lot might

not … There are some things that
will carry over to another lot, but

maybe not as much as one thinks.

So for example, we find, say, with
the Portuguese horses, which we have

a lot of who have been selectively
bred for bullfighting, they have

this desire for fire and mischief and

Y- I can't say it on
YouTube, but it, it, it's-

Jenifer Zeligs: Arousal

Rupert Isaacson: it's
M-U-T-H-A-F-U-C-K-E-R-Y.

Oh.

Yes.

They, they have this desire
for this, and they, they have

this kind of a ha ha in them.

And then you have, like, the
German horses, who are much more

of a, a sort of bit anxious and
they want to get everything right.

But they can be a bit overreactive,
but they can be quite br- they

kind of reflect the Germans.

And then you have, you know, the Arabians
might be, like, up here looking for

threats across the desert, and the
Anglo-Arabs perhaps a little bit more,

and then you get the Thoroughbreds who,
like, really, really wanna run, but also,

like, really like to chill and hang.

And you, you realize that, oh, I see.

And then the cold bloods that are coming
out of this thing of I come from the snowy

north where when the wi- when the wolves
chase us, we do not run through the drifts

because then the wolves will get us.

We pack up, we stand, we put
the head down, we, you know.

And you can end up in
that situation with them.

And knowing and sort of delighting
in all these different personality

types mean that one has to, of
course, endlessly tweak what one does.

So let's say we have a rule of thumb
in the horse training that we do.

We are basically the
French-Portuguese system.

That's kind of what we do, because we
found that that is the most versatile

in terms of its universal application.

But it still has to be tweaked
endlessly, individually horse to

horse, and type, breed, you know.

And I guess this is exactly
the same for people.

It's exactly the same for dogs.

But it's, it's something that has
to be borne in mind, because when

people are … Let's say someone is
doing what we're doing where they're

d- working with equine therapy.

They're gonna get a variety
of horses come through.

And learning that, well, the Quarter
Horses seem to kind of like this

and the Thoroughbreds kind of seem
to like that, is useful because we

want them to feel seen, understood,
take pleasure in the work and that we

can meet their needs so that we can
then meet the needs of the client.

When you are working with-
Mm … say, large predators.

Let's say you're working with big cats.

What can you take from sea lions and dogs
and cetaceans over to, or wolves, over

to big cats who are very, very different?

And then what w- could we take from
the big cats back over to the horses?

Jenifer Zeligs: I was noticing as you
were proposing this, and I was glad

you did, you know, you, you had a real
ethological view, or another word for

that might be speciesist view with a
slightly more negative connotation.

Like putting, you know, a
circle around a group of-

Rupert Isaacson: I don't mean

Jenifer Zeligs: to be speciesist, Alex.

Sorry.

Say it again?

Rupert Isaacson: I don't
mean to be speciesist, Alex.

Jenifer Zeligs: Yes.

I, I, I said that just to tick you off.

Yeah.

But also to kind of bring up,
there, there's a strength and

a weakness to that position.

Yeah.

And I, I bet you it's populating-

Rupert Isaacson: Talk us through.

Yeah, talk us through it

… Jenifer Zeligs: it's
populating in your mind.

Mm.

It's great to be a, an,
a subject matter expert.

You know all there is to
know about what was it?

Portuguese horses, let's say.

You're a Portuguese horse…

okay, I'm not trying to claim that.

I, I didn't, I didn't claim that.

Let's just- But let's say I,
I hang out with them … just

work with it, just work with it.

Okay.

So you're an expert in Portuguese horses.

So you think of Portuguese
horses as this type, right?

Or we could…

I, I'm a psychologist.

I could, I could be an expert in humans.

Now, now immediately that should
start to cause flags for you.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Jenifer Zeligs: Whoa.

You know, maybe I could be a-
an expert in Californian humans.

That would at least be a subset,
'cause there's a cultural element,

you know, that might be kind of
like breed or something like that.

But there, there's a problem, isn't there?

Because even any given individual
Jennifer is not the same in the morning

and the evening, and depending on
whether she's just been to a holiday-

Rupert Isaacson: Indeed, but I don't think
any, I don't think anyone who's looking…

Just devil's advocate for that, sure.

But I don't think anyone who's fairly
serious to say horse training, let's

say it was Portuguese horses, then
you would say, "Well, look, there's

all these breeding lines that are
quite different from each other."

And so within the Portuguese, yes,
you've got all these different

personality types which show up in this
breeding line, this breeding line, this

breeding line, and this breeding line.

If you cross them, you might get some
of that, you might get some of that.

And within that, you still have, as you
say, the absolute individual variables,

and you have the continuum variables
about they could be different on

Tuesday to the way they are on Thursday.

Yet, at the same time, you can
also observe some patterns.

It's both.

Jenifer Zeligs: It's both.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I mean, empirically, what the
science tends to show us is that

there's a lot more individual variation
than there is even between species.

That may kind of shock you.

Fair,

Rupert Isaacson: fair enough.

Fair enough,

Jenifer Zeligs: yeah.

But it, it, that's me.

So I'm p- why am I pointing this out?

I'm pointing it out because- You
can take the value of understanding

the different kinds of reinforcers.

So your question was something
like, what does a big cat have

to offer to a horse world?

Well, when I think of big cats,
I think of animals who are very

much more operated on smells.

Okay.

And you know, actually, that is
quite important in the horse world.

We often underplay, because hu- why?

Because human beings have
a shit sense of smell.

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

Jenifer Zeligs: That's about the one
thing humans … we know this about

dogs- Yeah … but we don't tend
to give it, you know, what's the

problem with a big wind coming up?

Mm.

It's more than just the sound
and the things that are moving.

It's that.

Mm.

It's also that.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

Jenifer Zeligs: But it's, it's
what's being carried on the wind.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

Jenifer Zeligs: And you're
really bad at knowing that.

So I think realizing that, but also
realizing that smells can be a reinforcer.

So we would use smells in the environment
of cats to, like rabbit pee smells.

What, what, what can tri-

Rupert Isaacson: What about dogs?

Because dogs are also obviously scent.

Yeah.

What's the difference between cat,
cat scent thing and dog scent thing?

Jenifer Zeligs: There is a lot more
sort of fixed action pattern stuff.

Cats hunt alone, almost all
species, everything except,

Rupert Isaacson: Except lions

… Jenifer Zeligs: lions.

They're all solitary.

So, and dogs are much more super social.

They collaborate towards their tasks
which is why humans and dogs have

this kind of natural interplay that
we've bred for and enhanced because

the, the collaboration is a, is

Rupert Isaacson: a- We're
strategic social predators.

We get each other.

Yeah.

Jenifer Zeligs: Yeah.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: But-

Jenifer Zeligs: Yeah

… Rupert Isaacson: but the way in which
the, the dog uses its scent to target

and hunt and interpret its world,
how is that different to way, the

way the big cat does, or, or any cat?

Jenifer Zeligs: I- Do you think-
You have reached the edge of

my knowledge on that subject.

I do not know.

Okay.

That is an ethological question
that I do not know the answer

Rupert Isaacson: to.

You observe, though.

What, you know, speculate.

I mean, you're in a good
position to speculate.

You work with all these animals.

Jenifer Zeligs: What it feels like
when you're speaking to a dog versus

when you're speaking to a cat is
that there's a lot of automated

routines with cats where the trigger
happens and now it's triggered.

Whereas the dog has got a lot more
cognitive overlay where there's a

lot more types of information that's
coming in to mediate that reaction.

They seem to have a lot more of a plastic

moldable, variable attack sequence
probably because of the social

interface, because there's, you
know, you go left, I go right, we're

gonna kind of slowly work this out.

Whereas a cat tends to do a few things.

They, they identify with great n- you
know, object permanence and, and they,

they will sit for, you know, completely
stable for prolonged periods of time.

That's not really the, the
hunting strategy of a dog as much.

There might be moments for
that, you know, pointing.

Rupert Isaacson: They don't
ambush much, it's true, yeah.

Jenifer Zeligs: But, yeah.

But usually it's a little bit more
like surround and, you know, and

grab and, you know, there, there's
a lot more that's going on there.

Whereas a cat is sort of
a sit and wait predator.

And it, the whole system is just
really, it feels really fixed.

Like, like the cat can't quite get
themselves out of the scenario easily.

It's not like there's a cognitive overlay.

There's, there's, it's a much more sort
of fixed action pattern kind of neurologic

wiring with, with less flexibility.

So getting in there and, and modulating
that and interrupting that is a lot harder

when you're, when you're talking to cats.

So actually the game with cats is,
is probably to not trigger the fixed

action pattern as much and use it
only only where it's really useful

to you and it can run on its own.

Whereas with a dog you're,
you're not as much…

So for example, if you're working
with big cats, especially if you're

working with big cats in free contact,
you're gliding the edge at any moment.

Any arousal at all needs to
be attended to immediately.

How are you- Because you can go from You
know, we're both having a great time,

you're purring and rubbing all over me,
to you've taken me down by the jugular.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

We even see that with house cats.

You, you're playing with them
and then suddenly they nail you.

Jenifer Zeligs: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: How, how do
you deal with that arousal?

You see how g- you d- how am
I g- if you're a lion, how

am I gonna deal with that?

Jenifer Zeligs: You, you watch very
carefully for the indicating, the

pre- so there's precursor elements
to these behaviors, the the,

the, the causes of the arousal.

And you wanna be alert to what the
environment is doing and how, how

the animal's behavioral indicators
are showing that setting up.

As soon as you see an arousal that
you're not, you know, that isn't

something strategic for you, you need
to redirect away from that arousal.

So you need a strong draw in
another direction, or you need

to get into protected contact.

You need to, you know, you
need to interrupt the cycle.

Most of the game is won and
lost, and actually this is true

just behaviorally z- zoomed out.

Don't get into a crash
and then try to fix it.

Don't get into the crash.

That's the, that's the job.

But

Rupert Isaacson: how do you stop
a lion from becoming aroused?

I mean, once he's ar- i- so I could see-

Jenifer Zeligs: No, I'm- I
could see him- I'm, I'm stopping

before we get to aroused.

I see the arousal coming.

I know what causes arousal.

I, I selectively in detox the
arousal features that I don't want.

I don't want you to be afraid of that.

I don't want that to come a-
as a, as a surprise to you.

So I'm going to do all
those respectful things.

I'm gonna explain that
this is about to happen.

I'm gonna teach it to
you at a great distance.

I'm gonna break it into small pieces.

When I see it starting to get out of
my out of my hands, I'm gonna have a

whole set of behaviors that I send you
towards so that you don't get into that.

I mean, this can be taken from a,
from a horse standpoint as well.

It's ex- Right.

No, you're giving- It's exactly the same

… Rupert Isaacson: you're
giving me lots of insights.

So for example I've worked a lot
with stallions and, and young

stallions, and they can become…

Y- you talked about the scent, right?

So scent of pheromones of
mares coming in on the wind.

So you could, from a kilometer
away, you've got no idea.

You're hanging out with your stallion,
it's wonderful, and then he w- suddenly

wants to do not so wonderful things.

Paying attention to what, does he seem
distracted by something over there-

Yeah … that, that I can't see.

That has definitely been
something I've learned.

And then might I try to redirect, or
might I, at that stage, want to break

the session and say, "You know what?

I'll come back when you're receptive."

Yeah.

And then what to do if I
find myself in the crash.

It's only happened a couple of times.

It- it's a weird one.

You have to stand your ground,
and that's a really difficult

thing to learn with, with horses.

It might only happen to you twice
in your life or something, where

there's a specific protocol for that,
that I learned from old guys of- Mm

of how to not get injured.

Or if you have to break up
a fight between stallions.

That's happened to me before, when
they've actually taken it to the floor.

And, you know, even if they don't go
for you with their teeth, there's hooves

flying and it's, it's, it's not easy.

But again, how often is that gonna happen?

But so often if you looked at
that situation afterwards, you

say, "Yeah, I probably could have
headed that one off, actually."

But-

Jenifer Zeligs: Yeah.

If I would say one skill that
is associated with the advanced

trainers I know, the most
advanced skill is prevention.

Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.

Jenifer Zeligs: Prevention of disaster
scenarios is much better than trying

to train out of it when you've got a
rehearsal history or you're in a crash.

Like, I know that sounds boring,
but that's- Mm … that's really

what top professionals do.

They don't get into the crash.

Rupert Isaacson: And learning what
those things are and, and, and how, what

is the redirect, how do you redirect?

In- You know, you're so, it's, I'm
so glad you brought up scent because

it's a growing field within horses
that the horse is a search and rescue

animal with scent targeting, and
there's now certifications for this.

Mm.

It's now being used by mountain
rescue and that sort of thing.

And therefore, how useful that
would be in training, which we

don't consider because it's just not
part of what was handed down to us.

Could we be using essential oils and
scents and things that horses find

pleasurable, or things that horse want
to go towards, and making the arena, Yes

a targetable place this way,
and then turning those behaviors

into the training behaviors?

You know, th- well, they don't
teach us that in pony club.

But people like you, I think,
can draw our attention to this.

Jenifer Zeligs: Yeah.

So you've, you've brought
it together perfectly.

It's like here's where other animals
are teaching us, or other systems that

you have to work with, open up and
expand our kind of toolbox, and thinking

about, "Wait a minute, I could do that."

Like, you had this whole
environmental enrichment thing with

your indoor and outdoor arenas.

Mm.

And if you added a scent to that s-
Mm … or several scents, different

interesting scents to that you could
associate scents with certain things too.

B- particularly des- find
the this scent, go find this.

You know, just like,
"Go find the red ball."

You know, whatever it is.

Like, any, any of that kind of like, woo.

And that's gonna lead to the most
delicious I don't know, peppermint,

d- treat or, you know, apple or
what- you know, pick your poison,

pick your cocaine, whatever it is.

Mm.

Yeah.

And I think w- in terms of the
prevention side, how do we know that

someone is starting into arousal?

We see a lot of scent,
I mean, around scent.

You see, literally you
see the nostrils going.

Yeah.

Right?

You, you notice- Yeah … the
nostrils are going.

You see deep inhales.

You see higher upper body.

You know, you see the alert posture.

Mm.

You, you know, and then the ear is g-
is telling you, like, do I think it's

coming from, is it from over there?

Where is it?

Whoa, what's going on?

Mm.

And then it starts into all
these other you know, running

around kind of behaviors.

And yeah, and I think being ready
to make a, a smart decision in that

case, and taking the information
in, which is part of your job as

as a part of the communication side
of this, is that you also listen.

Communication is not just
impart information to someone

else about what you want.

Think about what it is to be a good boss.

It's like you also have to listen
to how the effect of that is

happening- Yeah … to those who,
you know, you're instructing.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

And y- you know, one can immediately
see how this would, could go into

things like trailer loading or- Yes

you know, notoriously difficult
areas around horsemanship like that

where people often do get hurt.

And then I could see how, oh, yeah,
in a zoo context, if I need to clean

that animal's teeth and I don't want
to anesthetize it yes, I could see how

using these things could … well, the,
the animal does have to get its teeth

done but the an- it might have a weak
heart, the anesthetic might kill it.

All right, what are we gonna do?

We're gonna call in Uncle Jennifer, and
she's gonna take us through protocols.

Which leads me to a s- a couple of sort
of towards the conclusion questions.

But don't worry listeners, because
this has been so interesting,

for sure, if she agrees to,
we're gonna get Jennifer back on.

It's, although it's been quite
difficult to nail her down.

So, Oi … you know, you have
to h- you have to hunt her down.

We have to be adaptive in our
hunting techniques- … in,

Jenifer Zeligs: Aw

… Rupert Isaacson: in how we get Jennifer.

But okay, so now you live in Oxford.

You're not living in Monterey Bay anymore.

Mm.

And you're not going to zoos
every day as far as I know.

You had a horse for quite a long time.

As, as far as I know, you're
not a horse owner at the moment.

And, you know, Oxford is
surrounded by nice nature.

But nonetheless, you're leading
a different sort of a life now.

Do you not miss it, or do you
actually, are you going out on safari

into the woods of Oxfordshire and-
Working with fallow deer in, in,

in, in the forests of Woodstock.

Or, you know, describe your life now
because th- it's been so animal focused.

And I know you're an author
and you're an academic as well.

But I'm a bit intrigued because,
you know, horse people tend

to be horse people, right?

They'll always have ponies.

Or even if they're not owning a pony,
they'll be going to a place where

there's a pony or, that would be me.

It, t- talk us through your life now
and, and, and, and why do you live the

way you do now and what, what, what are
you, is that permanent or is this a, is

it a little hiatus or, or what or what?

Jenifer Zeligs: What's the
name of the podcast again?

Live Free, Ride Free?

Yes.

Is that-

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Mm-hmm

Jenifer Zeligs: Yeah.

There we go.

The, I don't know what you mean
by that, but what so I guess the

other piece of Jennifer is that
she's a practicing Buddhist.

And a lot about Buddhism has to do- I
love to hear that … yeah, a lot about

it is, Understanding the full lived
experience of life in a way that makes

you able to be contented with less.

Rupert Isaacson: Sure.

Jenifer Zeligs: With things as they occur.

And I didn't choose to
lose my animal sanctuary.

I … It … That happened
as a result of COVID.

It happened effectively against my will.

But the freedom that I'm now
experiencing … So I started working

with animals at nine years old.

I worked at a, as a vet tech.

I was at professional
conferences at age 14 years old.

Wow.

I went to my first
professional conference.

At age 16, I gave my first
presentation at a professional

marine animal trainers meeting.

I had a giant organization that I ran
for 30 years or something like that.

So I had, I've had a long career
that started really early.

And the,

Rupert Isaacson: And you've been
responsible for a lot of animals.

As you say, you had an animal rescue.

You had y- like, there'd be animals
with … If Jennifer took her eye off

the ball, not good for the animals.

So yeah, you, you've experienced that
kind of heavy weight for decades, also

being responsible for … Even so-

Jenifer Zeligs: I know.

I'm getting there … Oxford.

I'm getting there.

Yeah, Oxford.

I … So what was offered to
me was an unexpected break.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

Jenifer Zeligs: And what we say in
Buddhism is you just take everything

to the path and let it wake you up.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Jenifer Zeligs: Mm.

So rather than immediately go and
fill it, the truth is, is because I

work with so many different species
and because I am not a speciesist, I

I delight in human beings, and I'll
tell you, in Oxford, there are some of

the most absolutely … Like yourself.

I mean, look at you.

You're, you're this curious encyclopedia
of history and technique and animals,

and the number of things that you
know about, and the conversations

with you are so rich and deep.

You fit perfectly in my environment.

And I run into all kinds
of stimulating beings here.

Rupert Isaacson: Sure.

But in Monterey you would do the same.

In San Francisco you

Jenifer Zeligs: would do the same.

No.

Rupert Isaacson: No?

Jenifer Zeligs: No.

Not at this level.

Okay.

I mean- A little bit … sure, yes,
occasionally, but at this level-

Rupert Isaacson: Marine

Jenifer Zeligs: bio- I mean,
the conversations I have-

Rupert Isaacson: Mm

Jenifer Zeligs: blow my mind.

They stretch me.

So I love this place.

I, I love the richness of the
people, and, and I'm also in a

sort of, I'm in a retreat phase.

Mm.

I'm getting to know who I am without
all the, the kind of identity trappings

that, that I had spent my whole life in.

Mm.

It's, it's probably the only moment
this is gonna happen, so I'm just

I'm not seeking to immediately fill it.

I'm actually exploring what
it's like to be in this

I'm not myself.

I'm not all the things that I was before.

What does that look like?

How is it to, to abide in that situation?

Well, for- It's not that I
don't delight in animals.

I st- I- you can see animals everywhere.

I'm going to Africa next year,
too, so I am living a dream

that I had never lived before.

Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting to
me y- what you said is very telling,

is that you say you're not speciesist.

So one hears this so often from animal
people, and this is, this is a statement

that always makes me super, like I
just wanna run the other direction.

It's when someone says-

Jenifer Zeligs: I know
what you're gonna say

… " Rupert Isaacson: I love dogs"-

" Jenifer Zeligs: But I hate people"

… " Rupert Isaacson: slaughter
horses, but I hate people."

I'm like-

Jenifer Zeligs: Yeah

… " Rupert Isaacson: I'm a human.

Okay, bye."

You know, it just means y- y- you're
gonna take a swing at me sometime.

And, Wow … and, and, and the diffic-
That's basically what it means.

And the i- it negates the fact
that, A, humans are animals.

It negates the fact that we conne- we're
social animals who actually desperately

need connection with each other.

And, Yeah … that's ecologically just
so wired into us that- Yeah … it's true

that some people are a bit more loners
and some people would be a little more at

the periphery of the tribe than others,
but everyone is still part of the tribe.

And it's not a road to happiness.

You know, it's, it's a
bitter thing to say, really.

And it, It's aversion … it makes
me think, well, if that's really

true, that is for sure gonna carry on
to one's relationship with animals.

It's a bit like when you re- meet really
harsh riding instructors and they say,

"Well, I love, I love the horses."

And they say, "No, you don't,
because if you really loved the

horses, you wouldn't stress the
monkey that's sitting on the horse."

'Cause the horse for sure is getting
stressed because the monkey is stressed.

If you really cared about the horse,
you'd, you'd modify what you do just

'cause you didn't wanna stress the horse.

So I, I get that you're in this
stage taking the opportunity to

explore the human environment.

And I think that's- Well, and

Jenifer Zeligs: myself

… Rupert Isaacson: commendable.

Right.

There, there's … I know what I
often crave and need is so I, I go and

spend large amounts of time in nature.

And it doesn't matter whether
it's this nature or that nature.

So I know Oxfordshire, where you live,
quite well, because my best mate,

John Mitchinson lives in a village
called Great Tew which is if you

like whimsical, there's been no new
building in that village since 1620.

It looks like Hobbiton, and it's
surrounded by a giant estate- A

feudal estate, effectively, but
you can walk all over it, that's

just stuffed with wildlife.

So, it's just a really rich
ecological environment.

So I love when I'm in Oxfordshire just
going and walking and sitting around

in the various environments on the
Great Tew Estate 'cause I'm gonna run

into six species of deer, I'm gonna run
into all these interesting trees, I'm

gonna run into all these interesting
birds, I'm gonna run into all these

interesting insects and, and then there's
all this mythology that is my ancestral

mythology that runs through, you know,
e- there as well, and blah, blah, blah.

So I find it very…

You know.

So I, wherever I am, I'm
gonna seek that out, you know.

Are you-

Jenifer Zeligs: Yeah

… Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

D- d- describe your relationship with,
with the British countryside now because

y- y- you had you know, you've described
being out in the ocean, you know-

Yeah … off California, you've described,
you know, certain other environments

Jenifer Zeligs: I live on the Thames,
and the Thames is a very long path that

you can walk to just about anywhere.

And on either side of the Thames there
are all these small green spaces.

In O- in Oxford, because the universities
and all the colleges each have their

own Central Park kind of thing.

Yeah.

They each have their own, Set of

Rupert Isaacson: green meadows

Jenifer Zeligs: fronting the river.

Yeah.

There's a deer park at Magdalen College.

You know, Christchurch Meadows has a
big cow pasture in the center of it.

There, there's a lot of, I would
say relative to any city of this

size that I've ever been in- It's a
great community … I've never seen

more green spaces where you- Mm.

I can be in the center of Oxford, which
is this incredible place of intellectual

and cultural advancement, and incredible
buildings, and I can be in the, in the

middle and be completely alone in nature.

Mm.

Over and over.

It's not like one place.

Mm.

There's probably 30 parks I can think of
where you can go and, you know, find a,

a place to be and nobody else is there.

It's sort of shocking to me that,
that this combination of features I've

never seen in any place where you've
got the cultural, this incredible

cultural experience, and there's all
these free museums and, and delightful

philosophy and music, and all this
kind of, you know, human-based stuff.

Human endeavor stuff, yeah.

And then all around it and
everywhere as far as you can walk-

Yeah … there is green spaces.

I never get bored.

I'm constantly finding new parks
within two miles of where I live.

I mean, it's shocking.

It's like shocking.

Yeah.

Maybe, maybe three miles, but you
know, I mean, a walkable distance

I'm discovering new green spaces

Rupert Isaacson: constantly.

And each

Jenifer Zeligs: one is exquisite.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Yeah.

As you say, some of them have
deer, some of them have … Yeah.

It's, it's- Often when I'm going around
and doing trainings, people say, "Oh,

Rupert, you have this African background,
and you lived in Texas, and da, da, da."

And you know, I'm doing 6:00 AM,
doing a training in the Netherlands.

I'll be there next week.

They say, "Oh, we don't have nature."

I'm like, "What?"

You know, it's, it's all around you.

Yeah.

It's all around you all the time.

And I have a great friend Craig Foster.

I don't know if you ever saw
that film My Octopus Teacher.

Jenifer Zeligs: Oh, yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah … yeah,
he's an old mate, right?

And w- we worked together in, in, on, ca-
the Kalahari with indigenous rights there.

He made an amazing film about
three Bushmen hunters, and those

were the same people I was working
with, and he's a wonderful dude.

He finds it very hard to be in
cities, and but when he's in

cities, he has this strategy.

He goes and hunts nature in, and tracks,
'cause that's what the human does.

We're tracking animals.

And as the Bushmen would say, "When
you track, you're dancing with God."

That's what they say.

Jenifer Zeligs: Ooh, beautiful

… Rupert Isaacson: because it, we, we,
we read the signs, read the signs.

Jenifer Zeligs: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: And,

Jenifer Zeligs: Mm

… Rupert Isaacson: he will go and look for
slimy slug trails on paving stones, and

then see, track them to algae- … on
paving stones, and then track the

little tooth marks that you can see
where the slugs and the snails were

eating the algae, and he sort of points
out how you can actually see this.

And then he said, "And then you'll
notice that there's this predator bird

that comes in and takes the snail and
the slug if you hang out and you watch.

And then you'll notice that there's
actually fox tracks and feral house

cat tracks and stuff like that
which are preying on these birds.

And then, and then you notice that
there's actually these berries growing

out of the wall, which is also what's
attracting the birds, and da, da, da, da."

And, and suddenly within this very
small area of an urban environment,

you've got, you know, what the
human mind needs which is nature.

So I love how you describe that, and
w- the reason I wanted to ask you

that was I think many people feel-

p- p- p- starved of nature or,
or perhaps their eyes untrained

or they don't know how to look.

And I think sometimes talking
to somebody like you or somebody

like Craig can help people to
open their eyes and find more joy.

Let's say it's horse people again.

You know, you get to your yard where
you keep your horse, or your barn

if it's in America, and you're like,
"Oh, no, no, no, no, out of my car.

No, no, no, no, no, no,
no, to the tack room.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, to the store.

No, no, no, no, no."

Yeah, but what little herbs are growing in
the cracks of where you parked your car,

and what birds are circling overhead, and
what, what's the weather system doing?

You might actually want to know 'cause
it might depe- you know, make the

difference whether you trail ride or not.

What's going on with the trees?

Is there some cheeky little oak
that's coming up where it shouldn't?

And, you know, this sort of thing, we
can be damn sure the horses are noticing.

Yeah.

Jenifer Zeligs: Yeah.

Look with appreciation.

Look with delight.

Look with interest.

Mm-hmm.

Look with curiosity.

That, that is also a
mood setter, you know?

Mm-hmm.

The problem of having this,
like, "Ah, mm, nah, nah, nah"-

Yeah … is you're missing life.

This is all there is.

This is all there is.

So, you might as well take it in and
make it as beautiful as possible,

and the way you make it beautiful is
you notice the beauty all around you.

And it is really possible to do that.

People have a sense that, "Oh, I'm that
kind," or, "They're that kind of person.

I can only be happy in this situation."

Mm.

As a person who shifts animals' thoughts
and motives and moods for a living in

order to get things accomplished, I am
in enormous position to encourage you to

believe that that story you're telling
yourself, it's true, but it's true

because you're telling yourself the story.

Yeah.

It's not true because it's
some fact of the universe.

Everything is moving through time.

We're all subject to causes and
conditions, and everything is

impermanent, and everything is shiftable.

And that's for good and for ill, right?

What do I say to to, to lift me
out of despair when I'm in despair?

"This too shall pass."

What do I say to take me down
from hyper-euphoria when I'm,

you know, imagining things
are, are greater than they are?

"This too shall pass."

So things are shiftable.

The impermanence element of life is a,
a kind of important thing to embrace at

a central level to realize that you can
shift how you interact with the universe.

And-

Rupert Isaacson: Including your
animal, including your horse, right.

Jenifer Zeligs: Exactly,
including your horse.

Rupert Isaacson: You can see,
you can see greater possibility.

Noticing more too, like noticing,
when is a horse really making a try?

One might-

Jenifer Zeligs: Yeah

… Rupert Isaacson: be more
prone to notice that if one's

noticing a lot of other things.

Jenifer Zeligs: Yes, that's a good point.

Rupert Isaacson: You, the last
thing I want to ask you so you

mentioned Buddhism a couple of times.

I know you're a Buddhist.

Buddhism can mean many things in terms
of there are many branches of Buddhism.

It's a bit like saying, "I'm Christian."

You know, say, "Well,
which Christian are you?"

There's Christianities, you know.

Mm-hmm.

Are you, are you, a, an ancient Greek
Gnostic, or are you a, you know,

a, a Russian Orthodox, or are, what
are, you know, are you a kind of

Jenifer Zeligs: back to- Especially
true for Rupert, right, folks.

That's, that's a Rupert
answer right there.

Rupert Isaacson: But having, having been
exposed to a fair amount of Buddhism

myself and I definitely think that
outside of the hunting and gathering

spiritual out, spiritual outlook, well, it
basically is there's not much difference.

It's, it's a way of life, it's a way of
thinking, but there are many different

strains to it, so it can present
itself in a rather different look.

So Tibetan Buddhism can look like the
sort of high Roman Catholic version with,

you know, lots of gold and lots of bells
and smells and- Mm-hmm … and ritual.

And you know, other things can
be just more about the, the,

the, the personal relationship
with divine- Like Zen Buddhism

and so on and so on, and
all points in between.

How did you come to Buddhism?

What do you think Buddhism gives to
you in your practice with animals,

and what can those people who
are not Buddhists take from it?

'Cause one of the things I like about
Buddhists is they don't evangelize.

They don't try and make
other people into Buddhists.

But nonetheless, there are some,
there are some real benefits, I

think, to that, to that outlook.

So how, yeah, how did you come to it?

How did, how has it helped
you with animals, and what can

the rest of us learn from it?

Jenifer Zeligs: I think, I, well,
to answer the direct question how

I came t- to it is pretty easy.

I'm a psychologist, and meditation
and mindfulness about maybe 30 years

ago or something like that, it, it,
it … Mindfulness is the new black.

That's like one of my
friends who's a psychiatrist.

It, it … Mindfulness has so
much value to mental health.

Mindfulness and meditation have
as much value to mental health

in human beings empirically- Mm

as exercise does to physical
health- Right … in human beings.

Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: and it's well-studied.

Jenifer Zeligs: And- It's well-studied.

Yeah.

And so I got interested- It's the
theory and stuff, yeah … 'cause

I wanted to be happier.

I wanted to understand my mental states.

I wanted to understand this
through mindful psychology.

Rupert Isaacson: Were you coming not just
out of the curiosity as a psychologist?

Were you also dealing with a
kind of despair and unhappiness?

Jenifer Zeligs: It is, it is the classic
story that, that as a way of dealing with

suffering and the unsatisfactoriness of
life that, that people seek out Buddhism.

That is, like, the classic story.

So I, I think it must be,
but I don't think that's the

story I was telling myself.

I, I, you know, I don't
remember … Well, I wasn't depressed.

But I, you know, I think I, I
always thought th- there was more.

I could do better.

I wanted to understand, and I
must-- I, I wanna understand

both myself and others, you know?

So it was, it was a p- a twofer.

And so I, I came at it from that
direction, and I tried it out in

the laboratory of my own experience.

That is, I practiced.

And I- And what did you notice?

… I waited to see what happened, and
what I noticed was, oh my God, this

was a revelation about understanding
myself, understanding others, making

different choices, small choices.

Just understanding where my narrative
was setting s- me up for certain kinds

of problems, or I wasn't pausing enough
to see what was really happening.

I wasn't-- I didn't have a clean picture.

There's a lot of self-compassion
exercises that come up.

So there's a lot of different kinds
of meditation, but self-compassion

is a really important skill
set that came to the fore.

And then that's how I became
kind of Buddhist curious.

And then I married them
together in, in a book.

I you know, the, the original saying
was that was taught to me was the

Buddhist was the first psychologist.

He taught the origins of suffering and its
alleviation And that is basic psychology.

Like, how do we create welfare?

How do we change behavior?

And I started to map what he said and what
he was suggesting about how to change your

mood, how to how to engage with less fear.

Fearlessness, which is so central,
you know, how to, how do we provide a

fearlessness experience for horses, for
example, is one of the most common issues.

Because you may ne- not even be thinking
of it that way, but the, the, the fact

that the horse can be afraid can cause
all kinds of other catastrophes, right?

So you, you, you may not have
articulated it this way, but you

want fearlessness or you want to
create at least a, enough comfort.

Maybe fearlessness is the wrong word,
but enough comfort with stimulus in

the environment that the animal can
or that your horse can, Not escalate

Rupert Isaacson: into crazy shit.

Yes.

Jenifer Zeligs: Yeah … yeah, can,
can, and wants to go in different

places and, and everything else.

And so that was one of his one of the
Buddha's main, main teachings, had to do

with how to cultivate yeah, robustness
and an understanding and a fearlessness.

And, and that was taught
through a, a armor of love,

an undefended, curious nature.

Changing, changing your internal
monologue about things instead of

trying to change the whole environment.

But understanding how the
environment was causing this.

So it just, it opened up a lot for me
and I, I I brought it into a very…

Th- this book, Mindful Partners, which
is why I was on Warwick Schiller's

podcast, and that's why you and I met-

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah

Jenifer Zeligs: Was my way of trying to
reflect for a a, just a, a person who was

curious about deeper learning or, or…

And it's not just Buddhism.

This, I've got Judaism and
Christianity and, and it, it's

not, it's not about religion.

The, it's more about wisdom, and how
wisdom and compassion and sort of,

deep openness or spirituality can can
sort of break free some some different

ways of thinking about behavior.

So for example, teaching
animals to be mindful is one

of the things that I suggest.

Mm.

Because having an animal who is
distracted and, you know, a horse

that's looking around, looking around,
you know, it can't stand still,

you know, that kind of s- it's very
hard to connect to that individual.

Mm.

So how do we, how do we engage them?

And it turns out you can actually
teach them to be mindful.

You can teach them- How do you do that?

… calm defaults.

How do you teach animals to be mindful?

You can teach them to in small steps,
have, well, first you have to take away

some of the value of, of stimulating
influences and be alert to the stimulating

influences that we've talked about.

So that's one side of it.

But the other side is actually to
teach the behavior of calmness,

a behavior of calm default.

So with my horse, I mostly used
a head-down posture for this.

I taught, "If you don't know what to do,
put your head down, and I'm gonna attend.

I'm gonna attend you in
that in that posture."

And what does that do right away?

It makes me more safe, 'cause the horse
is not able to buck and paw and do all

kinds of crazy stuff as much let's say.

As, as much.

It quiets their nervous system
down, as I n- Down, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It puts them in a different
physiological state.

It starts substituting it
gives them something to do.

And that feedback loop, by the way,
neurologically works for them, too.

Like, they notice it's
a more positive state.

My horse became addicted to that posture.

And when I met him, David got this
horse for me because the woman who

had the horse couldn't handle his
aggressive behavior towards her.

It was just out of control.

David Litchman got you this horse?

He connected me with the horse.

Yeah.

And proposed that I should get the horse.

And he, he auditioned
the horse for me first.

And he said "You know, Jennifer, I
have never seen a horse back up this

fast to buck someone in my life.

This horse has, it, it is, is
faster to back up and buck than

any horse I've ever worked with.

I think you should take it on."

Rupert Isaacson: And you
said, "Absolutely, that's

the horse for me," yeah.

Jenifer Zeligs: Really?

That's the one?

That's the one you picked?

Yeah.

And I did exactly what your instructor,
by the way, d- suggested to you.

I started in protected contact.

I'm like, "Okay, well, we better
start with some, some foundational

scenarios in which we both feel
safe," and I created the language.

Mm.

Like, when, what to do describing behavior
that I requested instead of implemented.

And, and this is good, and this is
when good things are gonna happen.

And I waited until I saw…

I mean, of course we also did go inside
with this horse, but I, I you know-

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah

… Jenifer Zeligs: I did a lot of
the preliminary training through

a completely different paradigm.

And that paradigm shift
worked for both of us.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Jenifer Zeligs: And so David,
when he first came back after

a few months or something like
that, he said, "This is the horse?

I don't even recognize this horse.

This horse doesn't seem the same."

And what had happened was a complete
mood shift, so that no longer was that

go-to behavior the predominant one.

So it wasn't that I actually had to
substitute for that behavior, I just kind

of created an entirely different Paradigm
of interaction that freed the horse to

become more relaxed and less aroused

Rupert Isaacson: I think you just answered
the question of what can we learn as

horse people from the Buddhist approach,
because I think what you just described

there was an idea of saying, "Well, here
is a question I don't have an answer to,

therefore I need to become comfortable
with that and comfortable with the

question and curious about the question,"
unattached necessarily to outcome to the

degree of, "Well, when David comes back,
I want to prove to him that I can, you

know, ride this horse in all these ways."

Just much more, "Well, how can I use
what I already know about making animals

feel safe to make this horse, who doesn't
seem to feel very safe, feel safer?

And then if I can establish that,
can I, can I do other things?

And that might even mean I'm not putting
my hands on the horse and I'm working on

the other side of a fence for a while."

For a lot of people brought up in
standard horsemanship, you know,

something like that wouldn't necessarily
be seen as an option because it

h- would never have been suggested
to them in the past as an option.

Yet it's so interesting that almost every
really good horse trainer I know, rather

like the story you told with Warwick,
has encountered a horse or two where

all of the other options were stripped
away and it only left you with, "Well,

everything I've done is not working,
so whatever is the thing that is going

to work, I don't know what it is, but
the only way I can find that out is

to build some relationship and see."

Jenifer Zeligs: Curiosity, interest

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, curiosity.

And I think Buddhism- Change the
paradigm … i- it's an inhe- it's

an in- in- it's an inherently curious
way of engaging with the world.

It says, "I don't have the answers,
but I'm sort of interested in what

they might be, but I'm also sort
of interested in the problems.

I'm interested in it all," as you said.

And I think riding or being around horses
actually does, in a default way, bring

people into the present moment in a way
where you don't actually have to be.

Mm.

I think it's actually
true with most animals.

Mm-hmm.

But particularly with horses-
Mm-hmm … because of all the

variables that go into horses.

But everyone who is around
horses always reports this- Yeah

absence of time effect.

You know?

Yeah.

You lose track of time
when you're with horses.

It's one of the, the most
healing things for us because

we're in that present moment.

It's interesting, while you were talking
too, I was wanting to point out also

to listeners that the Buddha, Prince
Siddhartha, was in fact a horseman.

And the those, late Bronze Age, early
Iron Age cultures along the foothills

of the Himalayas were then, and still
are, very active horse cultures.

If you've ever heard of the Rajputs
or if you've ever heard of the Marwari

horse, which is those ones with those
ears that go like that, or I've spent

quite a lot of time in the, some bits
of India, and there's very, very, very

long established horse cultures that
go back at least 4,000 years there.

Anyway, Siddhartha of course rode
out into the forest on his horse

apparently, who, I was just looking
it up, so what was his name again?

And it's Kantaka.

Kanta- Kantaka.

K-A-N-T-A-K-A.

Played a crucial role, according to
ChatGPT, when Prince Siddhartha left

his palace in the middle of the night-
Yeah … to begin his spiritual journey.

He w- didn't take Shanks his
pony, he took his horse, 'cause

he was a prince, and princes ride.

Until they don't.

The journey, ridden by the prince and
accompanied by the charioteer Channa,

Kantaka leapt across the river Anoma,
so he's a jumping horse too- … to

help Siddhartha escape his royal life.

Fateful ending.

According to Buddhist legend, don't know
which Buddhist legend, but according to

Buddhi- according to Buddhist legend,
after Siddhartha dismounted, cut his

hair, and sent the horse back, Kantaka
died of a broken heart from grief.

Mm.

Rebirth.

Buddhist texts state that the
loyal horse was subsequently

reborn- … in the Tushita Heaven,
whatever the Tushita Heaven is.

What's the Tushita Heaven?

Okay, we've gotta find that out.

It's

Jenifer Zeligs: gonna be a pure land.

Rupert Isaacson: Say what?

Jenifer Zeligs: They have this
idea of pure lands higher,

higher states, pure lands.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

I'm just gonna- Good,

Jenifer Zeligs: good birth.

That's a good birth.

We want that

Rupert Isaacson: Tushita Heaven.

So anyway, it just makes it, if,
if you're a horse person and you're

a bit skeptical of this Buddhism
malarkey, well, the Buddhist, the

Buddha himself was a horseman, so
that makes it a bit safer for you.

The r- the Tushita Heaven, the realm
of joy- The name Tushita translates

from Sanskrit to satisfied or joyful.

Home of future Buddhas apparently.

The next Buddha of our world,
Maitreya, currently lives in Tushita.

Maybe he's hanging out with Kantaka.

Jenifer Zeligs: Hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: And apparently
Siddhartha was, came from there too.

Interesting.

But expanding- You're fascinating … the
expanding of comfort zones, curiosity this

has been … You talked about enrichment.

This has been a very
enriching conversation.

I remember when I first met you, which
was two years ago in Birmingham for

the journey on Warwick Schiller's
conference, I … and I had an initial

conversation with you and I was
like, "That was a rich conversation.

That's p- p- Knows a lot about a lot."

No

Jenifer Zeligs: I felt exactly the same.

I felt exactly the … Sorry, keep going.

Rupert Isaacson: Oh, yeah.

So listen, with your … I think
we, we've reached, we've probably

exceeded the two-hour mark here.

Couple of things.

I need you to do your plugs, like, you
know, your books, how people can engage

your services if they want consultations
with you, where they can find out

information, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

If you offer retreats, what do you do?

And then I also want to make a request
please, which is that we carry this

conversation on where we can actually
look at more specific things within the

conversation that we touched on, 'cause
a lot of this was also your journey.

And to go a bit more up our own bottoms
and down rabbit holes and things,

which is more or less the same thing.

By the way, down the rabbit hole, you
know where that comes from, don't you?

It's an Oxford thing.

Jenifer Zeligs: Oh, well, I assume
it's Alice in Wonderland, which is-

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, but do you know-
… written here … specifically where?

Jenifer Zeligs: Yes.

It was written here.

It's-

Rupert Isaacson: Lewis Carroll used to
row with Alice … Was it Lutyens was, was

Jenifer Zeligs: her name?

Liddell.

And

Rupert Isaacson: her what was it?

The Alice Liddell.

Was it Liddell, Liddell?

Anyway, would row out with her and a
friend of hers to have regular picnics

on an island in the Thames where sits an
old abbey which coincidentally was the

home for a while of the mistress of Henry
II, Fair Rosamund, who was a, a feature

of English folklore in the 12th century.

But anyway on the meadow of
that island where they used to

is an ancient rabbit warren.

Rabbit warrens are inherited generation
to generation, like badger setts.

They go over hundreds of years.

And he was having, they were having
tea on the picnic there observing the

rabbits, and watched one of them in a
hurry, who I believe had a light, slightly

lighter coat, go very fast down the hole.

And that's where the rabbit
hole thing came from was that.

And I went and had a picnic on that spot
with my friend John Mitchinson, who I told

you about, who's a publisher who told me
that story while we were having a picnic.

And lo and behold, a rabbit came along
and in front of us went down a hole.

So there's your synchronicity for you.

Jenifer Zeligs: Wow.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

So.

Jenifer Zeligs: Wow.

We're all just dumbfounded
by that, aren't we?

I'm just speaking for the audience.

I … Wow.

There you go.

It's- That's why you come to

Rupert Isaacson: Oxford … well, I guess
it just shows that all human endeavor

comes from observation and experience,
right, of animals and the natural world,

because Lewis Carroll was observing
rabbits and came up with that thing,

and now we all use that expression.

But you can go there any time
and observe the same thing.

In the same rabbit warren, you know,
with the descendants of that rabbit.

All right.

So Jennifer, please the plugs.

Hold up your book again.

Jenifer Zeligs: Oh, oh.

Yeah, I mean, I, I'm not
here to sell much, or- Yes,

Rupert Isaacson: you are.

What's, what are the books called?

I, th-

Jenifer Zeligs: Animal Training 101
and Mindful Partners, and the Mindful

Partners is the one I'm sort of
recommending, I think, to your community.

Okay.

It does have a lot of horse stuff in here.

Animal

Rupert Isaacson: Training
101 as well, then.

Jenifer Zeligs: This one is the
Animal Training 101 is the first one

I wrote, and it's a very technical,
nerdy dive into the grand unification

theory of all behavior management.

So any technique is, has been explained in
here through the science and through its

application of whether it's motivational
or communication or desensitization.

So this one would only be for
the extremely nerdy among you.

Mm.

This one is the marriage of the kind
of more philosophical spiritual side.

It has techniques.

They're more hand-selected.

It's not fil- so filled with terminology.

It's called The Zen Art and
Science of Working with Animals.

So

Rupert Isaacson: Mindful Partners,
The Zen Art of Working with-

Jenifer Zeligs: Animals

Rupert Isaacson: animals.

And Animal Training 101?

Jenifer Zeligs: Yeah, that one is called
The Complete and Practical Guide to the

Art and Science of Behavior Modification.

Rupert Isaacson: Super.

So we can go on, we can go
on Amazon and find those?

Jenifer Zeligs: That's what you would do.

Yeah.

And if you're really curious and you wanna
see this in video form what is my website?

Animaltraining.us.

Okay Animaltraining.us.

Animaltraining.us.

There are online courses
that are mostly…

Yeah, they're videos of maybe 40 or 50
different species, and it, it kind of lays

out animal training 101 in a video, So can

Rupert Isaacson: I go-
… course … and sign up and do a

Jenifer Zeligs: course on that?

Yeah

… Rupert Isaacson: animaltraining.us.

Jenifer Zeligs: Yeah.

And you can do it in small parts.

You can concentrate on communication,
or you could just be interested in

the six basic operant techniques.

Or you could do the full thing, where
you, you get the motivational side and

all of that breakdown as well as the
practical, kinda pull it all together.

Right So it's a very big class.

It's, I don't know, it's f- 40 or 50 hours
of, of stuff with lots and lots of videos.

Rupert Isaacson: Super.

And if people want…

Can people also email you?

Can they engage your services?

Are you available as a speaker?

Can, you know, c- can, do you consult?

Like, what are, what are the-

Jenifer Zeligs: You're so kind.

I suck at all of this because I,
you know, I used to have a team

of people and I'm, I'm not a-

Rupert Isaacson: But is the
answer yes, they can contact you?

Jenifer Zeligs: They can, yeah.

Okay So on, from my site you can get in
contact with me, or On animaltraining.us

… my name @gmail.com

will do it, too.

What@gmail.com?

My name, jenniferzaleks@gmail.com.

That's- We'll put that in the show
notes … the not professional one.

But, If you don't mind … yeah.

Yeah.

That's, that's my…

You have that email.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I do.

But I will make sure that it,
all of that is in the show notes.

And, and people, you know, lads who
are- That's fine … listening to this

and watching this, it's pretty obvious
that there's an awful lot to learn here.

So, I thoroughly, thoroughly recommend
that you pick up her books and get on

her website and sign up for her shit.

That's- And do her stuff- Thank
you … because you're gonna benefit.

And any, any parting words?

Any burning desires or last
thoughts, insights that you'd like

to leave the watchers and listeners

Jenifer Zeligs: with?

Yeah.

I think this life is short, so really-

Do your best to, to live, live it
the way that you'll be happy with

how you ha- not what happened, but
how you how you, you try to approach

what happened i- in, in the end.

That, that kind of felt experience that
I left it on the field, or I left it in

the pa- you know, I left it all out there.

Y- I think you're a great model for this.

Or maybe a simpler way is, is to
kind of, think about making lemonade

or, you know, one of those kind
of sayings, but- I would say sod

Rupert Isaacson: that,
make margaritas, man.

I mean,

Jenifer Zeligs: brilliant.

Okay.

Yeah, but t- t- take, take
everything that happens-

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah

… Jenifer Zeligs: and use it as an
opportunity to wake up just a little

bit closer towards your best self.

That's what I would say.

And that, that will bring you happiness.

It'll bring those around you happiness.

It has a knock-on effect.

That's what I would suggest.

Rupert Isaacson: And for your animals
and your ponies as well, naturally.

Jenifer Zeligs: Yeah, that's what I mean.

Yeah.

It'll, it'll have a knock-on
effect for everyone in your radius.

Rupert Isaacson: Super.

All right.

Jenifer Zeligs: Thank you.

Rupert Isaacson: Thank you.

This has been brilliant.

I hope you enjoyed today's
conversation as much as I did.

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