Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Live Free
Ride Free, where we talk to people who

have lived self-actualized lives on
their own terms, and find out how they

got there, what they do, how we can
get there, what we can learn from them.

How to live our best lives, find
our own definition of success,

and most importantly, find joy.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.

New York Times bestselling
author of the Horse Boy.

Founder of New Trails Learning
Systems and long ride home.com.

You can find details of all our programs
and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.

Welcome back to live free ride free today.

I've got JD Barker, he
is a best selling author.

He writes thrillers suspense
with a twist of the supernatural.

He has had endorsements from
no less than Stephen King.

And such like royalty.

He's also autistic.

In terms of living a self actualised
life, from where he began In his American

childhood to where he is now, as many
people know who listen to this podcast,

autism, A U T I S M, auto Greek word for
the self, this can often mean difficulty

with a relationship with the exterior
world, let's say, so it's intriguing

to me that we're talking today with
a storyteller, a communicator with

a condition that is often perceived
As not being massively conducive

to storytelling and communication.

Yet, here he is, and he's
doing extremely well at it.

His books are available on Amazon.

You'll If you type him in, you're
going to see a plethora of them.

With excellent reviews, if you're a
thriller reader, you're going to want to

read him just for the sake of his books.

But let's dive into the world of J.

D.

Barker.

J.

D.,

thanks so much for coming on.

Please give us a little bit of
an idea about who you are and

how you got to where you are.

JD Barker: Well, thanks for having me.

I, I, honestly, that's the first
time I've ever heard that the, you

know, the Greek root of the word.

And all of a sudden it makes sense.

I've never, never actually
thought about it before.

Yeah, so I'm one of those,
I was born in the 70s.

You know, so back then they didn't
diagnose this sort of thing.

You were just kind of the weird kid
they pushed off into the corner.

You're kind of shunned by, you
know, your peers, by adults.

And I just, I went through life that way.

I had no idea, you know, I wouldn't
say something was wrong with me.

I knew I was different.

I was reading by a very early age.

I was reading when I was around three
years old by the time I got into

kindergarten, I read like all the Hardy
boys and Nancy Drew mysteries and moved

on to Charles Dickens and a bunch of
the classics you know, always very

good in, in school always terrible.

When it came to social situations,
I couldn't relate to other people.

You know, and at first I thought
it was just because I was doing

things that the other kids weren't.

You know, I was reading.

At, at, at a young age.

Other kids weren't doing that yet.

I just, I didn't really relate to 'em.

I actually related to adults I think
a lot better than I did with kids.

Mm-hmm . But, you know, I went, I
went through school, I just kind

of fumbled my way through it.

Got into college.

Ended up getting a couple
of different degrees.

I got one into.

business, another one in finance.

I got an IT degree.

I got halfway through a
psychology degree and found myself

working in the corporate world.

The last real job I had, I was a chief
compliance officer at a brokerage firm,

which is as horrible as it sounds.

It's very similar to being like
internal affairs at a police department.

You have to monitor all the
activity taking place at a brokerage

firm, make sure that nobody is
breaking any rules or regulations,

compare every transaction against.

a bunch of, you know, documented rules and
basically look for any kind of anomaly.

So problem solving, so
I was very good at that.

I ended up writing computer
software to process a lot of

it, to deal with a lot of it.

I did a great job with that portion
of my job but when I actually found a

problem, I had to leave my office and
I had to go to talk to other people.

And that's where the real problems
kind of came into play because, you

know, I would have to basically go to.

Hey, you made a mistake and
here's why which automatically

put them on the defensive.

And then I had to try and
communicate the issue with them

and try and come to a resolution.

You know, after a while, someone on

Rupert Isaacson: the autism spectrum,

JD Barker: yeah, you know, so
there were a lot of clashes.

But my boss, you know, to his credit,
he was smart enough to recognize.

I was very good at, you know, a portion of
my job, not good with the people skills.

He thought I had anger issues.

Cause you know, everybody tries
to put this into some type of.

You know, explanation, put it in a box.

So he sent me to an
anger management class.

And I sat down with the therapist
for the initial interview.

And we got about 20 minutes in and
she stopped me and she said, Have

you ever been tested for autism?

Rupert Isaacson: And

JD Barker: I actually had no idea what
that really was other than that movie.

How old

Rupert Isaacson: were you at this point?

JD Barker: I was 22.

Okay.

So, so it was a while ago early 90s.

You know, so she started to explain
that, you know, well, as we've been

talking, I've noticed you don't make
any eye contact you tend to, you know,

stare at this one particular spot on
my wall whenever you're speaking, you

rub your thumb and your index finger
together whenever you think and she

just started rattling off these things
that I've done my entire life and never

really thought twice about and then she
mentioned autism and she spent her daytime

working with autistic children, which
is why these things jumped out at her.

Were you shocked?

Were you

Rupert Isaacson: insulted?

Or did you think, ah, well,

JD Barker: You know, at first I was taken
aback because I didn't know what it was,

and like I said, the only exposure I ever
had to it was Rain Man, you know, that

movie with Tom Cruise, which is not a
very good depiction, you know, it's, it's

nothing like the real, the real thing
but she asked if I'd be open to getting

tested, and I, I did, and then ultimately
we landed on a diagnosis of Asperger's

syndrome which in today's world,
you're just on the spectrum somewhere.

But back in the day,
they had a name for it.

And from my standpoint, you know,
it gave me a problem with a name

on it that I could actually solve.

So at that point I started researching
everything I possibly could.

I read books, I saw movies,
documentaries, any piece of

information I could get on it.

And basically started
trying to tackle this thing.

And essentially we, we created a list
of things that, you know, problem things

that I felt were problems in my life.

You know, like the social
situations, you know, social skills.

But we also made another list of the
things that I was able to do that other

people couldn't which, you know, today's
where I, I doubled down on a lot of those

because I was able to do a lot of things
that, you know, somebody that's quote

unquote normal, wasn't able to accomplish.

You know, so I, I spent the last
30 years, you know, basically

trying to dig out of that.

that whole.

You know, a lot of these things
I was able to correct or fix.

She taught me how to make eye
contact in a conversation.

You know, the funny thing is that
when I make eye contact, I can't pay

attention because I'm literally telling
myself in my head, keep eye contact,

keep eye contact, keep eye contact.

It feels weird to me.

It feels awkward.

I don't want to do it.

So I forced myself to do it and oddly,
like my wife knows, you know, we've

been married for over 10 years now.

She knows that if I don't look her in the
eye, that I'm actually paying attention.

You know, so like,
she's picked up on that.

She picked up on that very early on.

But, you know, I basically
started to work through as many

of these, these things as I could.

I mean, the social thing,
that's never gone away.

I don't think it ever will.

But I've learned to mimic my
way through social situations.

And, and oddly like that, that kind
of tied back to the writing career.

Cause initially I was working
on, projects I was working as a

book doctor and a ghost writer
basically working with other people.

And I would mimic other authors

Rupert Isaacson: That's that's a big
jump from being a corporate guy, you know

telling people that they're messing up.

It come it comes back There's
a jump there in the story

JD Barker: Yeah, no, it comes back to me
reading at such an early age, you know,

books were basically my safe place, you
know, when I wanted to get away from

the real world, I'd open up the cover
of a book and it just evolved, you know,

from, you know, reading other people's
stories to wanting to create my own.

I had a sister who was 15 months
younger than me so I used to write

stories up, I would staple them
together and I created a little library

in my room and she would check those
stories out, I'd charge her late fees.

fees.

You know, like this, this, this
went way back to, you know,

probably five, six, seven years old.

But that's, that's basically
where, where it started.

But I had been told that in
an early, early age, you can't

make a living as a writer.

You know, it's too, too
difficult a profession.

You have to get a real job.

Which is how I ended up
in the corporate world.

But I would come home at
night during all that time.

And I would, I would write,
like that was how I stayed sane.

You always

Rupert Isaacson: actually
wanted to be a writer.

JD Barker: Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I've, I've always done it.

So I, I did that for about 20 some years.

You know, basically
the two different jobs.

And over that time I had six different
books that hit the New York Times

bestseller list that I had written,
but they all came out with other

people's names on the covers.

Because they were, they were ghostwritten.

That gets old.

After a while, you know, somebody
else basically taking credit

for teaches you the craft.

It did, you know, and I wrote a lot
of memoirs and I think that's what

really did it for me because I had to
get into the head of another person.

I had to speak in their voice
and tell a story from, you know,

somebody else's perspective.

And I think that's what really
taught me how to create characters

and be able to, you know, dig into
fiction at the level that I did.

Ultimately when that six book
hit, my wife pulled me aside.

She said, listen, I know you hate your
day job cause I hated the corporate

thing but I was kind of trapped.

I had a big salary.

We had a big house.

We had cars, we had a boat.

We couldn't just walk away
from it cause it was expensive.

So she came up with this crazy plan.

We sold everything that we owned.

We bought a tiny little duplex in
Pittsburgh you know, which is a

steel town in the middle of the U S.

I bought a duplex, rented
out one side to some tenants.

We lived in the other side, got our
expenses down to next to nothing.

And I basically, we lived off a
savings long enough for me to write a

book on my own and get it out there.

And luckily it just, everything took off.

The first book sold really well.

The second one sold even better.

Some TV shows and movies came along.

And I've been on that
rollercoaster ever since.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So, people will obviously want to
know what were those books you helped

ghost ride that got onto the New York
times bestsellers and what were these?

Books that you then got your not
just became your own bestsellers,

but TV and film and so on.

But just before we go into that,
let me just backtrack with you.

As a child, you say books
were your safe place.

Did you feel unsafe in the world?

JD Barker: You know, I don't know that
it was unsafe, I didn't, you know, in

the 70s, like, we didn't even think that
way, like, cars didn't have seatbelts,

you know, like, we, we would jump, we
would jump our bike off the, you know,

off a ramp and go 20 feet across the,
you know, the road, like, we, we didn't

think about safety back then it just,
you know, like, I would feel like certain

situations, I just didn't understand them.

You know, like kids would be
playing, I would try to fit in.

It always felt like I was imitating
those actions which wasn't fun.

And I would see these other kids
who looked like they actually

were having legitimate fun.

And I didn't understand why it was
fun for them and not fun for me.

And at a young age, you know,
that gets very frustrating.

And at some point I would break off and
I would grab a book and that would, that

would call, that would call me back down.

Rupert Isaacson: So it wasn't
so much about being bullied

or picked on or singled out.

It was more just feeling
why can't I fit in?

JD Barker: Yeah, I mean that kind
of stuff was happening too, but you

know again in the 70s everybody did
it, you know I picked on other kids

they picked on other kids, you know
We'd lock each other in lockers.

Like it was just it was a very
different time than it is today

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
you're absolutely right.

I remember it Okay, so, you know in some
ways I'm quite similar I also used to

use books as a safe place when I was
at school why for you you said you read

the Nancy Drew and those mysteries very,
very early, like at three, why mysteries?

JD Barker: You know, I, I think it was
really just because that's what was on at

hand and my mom owned an antique store and
we used to go to a lot of garage sales or

yard sales and she would literally pick
up books by the box, you know, like 2 for,

you know, 50 books to stuffed in a box.

And initially, you know, I think 1
of those boxes had a mix of those

Hardy boys and Nancy Drew's in there.

So I just, I really fell in love with it.

Mysteries like, I love
the puzzle aspect of it.

So I think that might
have been part of it.

But in general, like, you know, in
today's world, I read across the board.

I'll read a romance novel,
I'll read sci fi, westerns.

I don't really care what the story is
about as long as it's a good story.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm hmm,

JD Barker: mm hmm.

And then you said you got
into the classics at how old?

That was when I got into
kindergarten, so five,

Rupert Isaacson: six years old.

You were reading Dickens, Victorian
English, at five or six years old.

JD Barker: Yeah, I mean, to this
day, Great Expectations is still my

favorite book to the point where I
actually wrote a retelling of it a

few years back called She Has a Broken
Thing Where Her Heart Should Be.

And it's my wife's favorite book,
and I travel all over the world at

this point, and it's the one book
people put in front of me and tell me

it's their favorite everywhere I go.

Oh, interesting.

And

Rupert Isaacson: why do you think that
Victorian classics Got you at that age.

And how did you deal with the
fact that that English was so far

from American vernacular English
that you'd have had around you?

Did you, you, you instinctively
understood it or you actually had

to have someone help you with it?

JD Barker: No, I, I got
through it pretty well.

I think, you know, because I always
saw books as being in another

place, almost like this magical
realm that I could kind of go into.

So the fact that, you know,
English was different.

You know, to me, it just kind of
fit, you know, it was, it was no

different than finding a dragon in
a story or, you know, a warlock or,

or something else, you know, it was
just a different way of, of talking.

I probably didn't understand that,
you know, in some part of the world,

people actually spoke that way.

You know, not, not at that age but
in the books, it, it made sense.

I do remember that when I picked up
great expectations, the first time

we were at the library and they had a
section of the classics and all the books

basically had the same kind of cover.

So they look like they belong
together, like a big set.

And that's what initially attracted me
to him because, you know, like I had gone

through the Hardy Boys and Nancy Drews.

They all had a similar cover, so it
all felt like, you know, this one big

project, you know, that I had tackled.

And seeing another possible
project in all of those, you know,

the classics laid out like that.

I think that's what initially attracted me
to it, but, you know, Dickens in general,

like his writing is just fantastic.

His writing is fantastic.

Rupert Isaacson: I'm just thinking
back now myself to Dickens.

But there, you know, there are, what,
what intrigues me is that it's It's

not just the use of the language,
there's also vocabulary stuff.

So, you know, for example, if someone
is drinking sack or drinking hock

or something like that, you, would
you have then gone and figured out

what sack, what are they drinking?

What do they mean?

They're drinking hock, you know?

No.

JD Barker: Most of the times when
I ran into something like that, I

just kept reading through it, you
know, because it was no different

than somebody making up a word.

You know, like when I read don't know,
like doing when I got older you know,

like there's a lot of made up words and
fantasy novels and things like that.

So like, I think my brain just kind
of tied that all together is just,

this was just some made up word.

Like I didn't know that it
was actually a real thing.

Okay.

Okay.

Right.

Rupert Isaacson: The, the, the,
the, the big picture rather

than the details effectively.

Yeah.

But what is intriguing to me is
that it's to some degree a little

bit like learning another language.

And your young brain at that
time, obviously being very

plastic would have been firing
many, many neurons, I'm thinking.

You know, dealing with these other
worlds that, As you say, you weren't

aware were actual worlds at that point.

So, okay, so then you get into
your early stages of mysteries.

And of course, a lot of Dickens, they
are actually mysteries, most of them.

There's usually, you know, a big
puzzle that has to be deciphered.

And if you boil Dickens down,
it's usually a bit of a suspense

novel with a romantic twist.

Yeah, absolutely.

Then you get into helping people.

to ghostwrite and write memos.

How does that happen?

JD Barker: Well I was in college,
one of my first jobs I worked

for BMG Distribution, which
was a division of RCA Records.

And I was essentially
a glorified babysitter.

So they'd have a recording artist come
into South Florida, I'd have to pick

him up at the airport, get him to the
radio station for interviews, get him to

their concert, get him to their hotel,
and get him back on an airplane when

it was time for them to leave town.

And this was some very famous people.

So to really date myself, but we had
people like Tiffany and Debbie Gibson and

new kids on the block Madonna bunch of
hair bands, poison, Motley Crue, Bon Jovi.

Yeah, so I realized very quickly,
I was running up a lot of debt, you

know, going to school is expensive.

And I had some very famous people in a car
with me sometimes for a week at a time.

So I would interview them.

And then I would take those interviews
and I would sell them to a lot of the

magazines that were around back then,
like 17 and teen people and tiger beat And

when you work with anybody at newspapers
and magazines, you quickly learn that

they've got a novel that they've been
working on for the last 10 years, you

know, it's in a desk drawer somewhere.

They're almost done.

It's 400, 000 words.

It just needs a little something.

I was very good with grammar
and punctuation and just

kind of the rules of writing.

So those people initially would
give me those books to kind of

go through them and clean it up.

Then I started offering developmental
suggestions, you know, like

the story takes off here.

This part should come out.

You know, I think your
character would develop me.

It's a little work here.

And that basically turned into a,
you know, the side hustle as working

as a, a ghost writer, a book doctor,
basically helping those people tweak

their novels and get them to the point
where they were ready for publication.

Over time, word of that spread yeah.

And so agents would call me, you know,
or editors would call me, they'd acquire

a book that they absolutely love,
but they couldn't get it published

because it needed work and they
couldn't get the original author to

do it because they were just too new.

And, you know, if you go to a debut
author and you say, you've got to take

40, 000 words out of this book, you
know, that's a difficult thing, but

they would bring me in as a hired gun.

You know, I had no skin in the
game, so, you know, I would just

take their direction and, and they
didn't sugarcoat anything with me.

And it's funny because in today's
world, you know, I'm a published

author, you know, if I get a phone
call from my editor, they'll you.

You know, if they've got a problem
with a book, they'll usually

tell me two or three things they
absolutely love about the book.

Then they'll tell me that one thing that
they need me to fix, and then they'll

finish up that phone call with one or
two more things they love about the book.

They kind of sandwich it in between
of, you know, the, the bad news

between a bunch of good news.

But when you're a hired gun,
they didn't do any of that.

They, they would just tell me
everything they hated about the book,

tell me what needed to be fixed.

And I think that's, I learned a lot
about the writing industry through

those conversations and what the folks
in New York were really looking for.

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

JD Barker: I

Rupert Isaacson: think that
if anyone who's listening is.

Wanting to write and publish a book, the
two things to know are the most important

thing about a book is its structure.

The structure's got to be
so good that it's invisible.

And that's what keeps you going.

And the other thing is the editing.

And really the editors should be on the
spine of the book alongside the author

because I'm a great believer that any
book that I've read that's worth reading,

it's largely down to the editors.

But it sounds like you've got a
crash course in Editing effectively.

JD Barker: Absolutely.

And I totally agree about books are
made in the editing process, not

necessarily in the writing process.

Rupert Isaacson: I agree.

Okay.

So give.

A couple of ideas of some of the memoirs
that hit big and other books that hit

big that you helped to ghost write.

And then let's go into your own work.

JD Barker: I wish I could talk about
that, but that, that whole industry,

like there are NDAs, NDAs for everything.

Yeah.

I mean, in today's world, I write
books with James Patterson, like

he's constantly bugging me, you
know, about the, those titles.

He wants to know who I worked with in
the past and I can't even tell him.

There I, I, I wish I could, but
it's just one of those things.

Okay.

That reminds me of

Rupert Isaacson: a very good story.

Do you, you know, who you, you, the
famous actor not Christopher Plummer

gosh, Saruman in Lord of the Rings gosh,
you know who I'm talking about and he

was in so many horror movies and, um, let
me just find him quickly because it's,

it's a great story along those lines.

It's Christopher Lee and Christopher Lee
had been a special ops intelligence dude

during World War Two, and he was always
being pestered by journalists about this.

And he has a famous story of.

One person just wouldn't let go and
wouldn't let go and wouldn't let go and

so he finally said can you keep a secret?

To this guy and he goes
yes, yes, so can I?

And that was the end of the interview So
now I get it Okay, so but nonetheless you

were brought in You have to sign the NDAs.

You can't talk about them, but you
learn the craft then you float your

first book Tell us about that book

JD Barker: Yeah, so at that point when
I sat down to write it, it was called

Forsaken I knew I wanted to write a
horror novel because that was always my

favorite genre to play around in and,
you know, at that point I felt like

I knew, you know, how to craft a good
book, beginning, middle, and end it's

funny because you could take any one
of my books and drop them into a three

act structure they all fit, but I've
never had anything Formal training,

like my formal training comes from all
the reading that I've done in the past.

Right.

That, that structure is
basically ingrained in my head.

Like I, I know when I take a wrong turn
while I'm writing mm-hmm . You know,

I know a twist needs to happen here.

The climax needs to start here.

Like, it all just feels organic to me.

So I sat down, I wrote Forsaken
in the book I had to explain

where the wife buys a journal.

And just to get the book finished,
I wrote that she walked into Needful

Things, you know, which is the story
from Stephen King's novel fully

expecting to have to change that, but
it was just a, you know, something

I did to get the book down on paper.

My wife read it and she said,
you know what, before we change

that, why don't we see if we can
get King's permission to use it?

And ultimately I was able to do that and
that, that's what launched my, my career.

You know, the fact that he was
wanting to take that chance.

How did you

Rupert Isaacson: contact Stephen King

JD Barker: to get that permission?

You know, the story behind it is, I
think, what actually launched the book.

So, it turns out he's got a house
in Florida that's about 10 minutes

from where my mother lives.

So we were, we were down there visiting.

We printed out the book.

We hopped in the car and figured, well,
we'll head over to Stephen King's house.

You know, he'll be outside
gardening or something.

I'll hand him the manuscript.

He'll give us a big thumbs
up and we'll be on our way.

It didn't work out that way.

So, he lives on.

Yeah, he lives on a little island
right off the coast of Florida we call

him Keys down there he lives on K.

C.

Key you go over this tiny little bridge,
if you make a left, you go to the entire

portion of the, the island where bars
and restaurants and stuff like that

are, if you make a right, you kind of
go to the half that the king owns, and

there's immediately a private drive
sign and no trespassing sign we got

about a half mile in and there was a
gate and then there was another gate.

I started looking up in the
trees thinking there's going to

be a sniper coming at us next.

And this is probably a bad idea.

So my wife and I, we turned
around, we went to a little

restaurant down near the bridge.

I called a friend of mine.

His name was Dallas Mare.

He wrote another, the name Jack Ketchum.

He passed away a few years
ago, but a really nice guy.

I knew he was friends with King
and I told him what we were up to.

And he said, Oh yeah, don't stalk Steve.

He hates that.

Here's his email address.

Send him the book.

If he likes it, you'll hear back from him.

If the book is shit, he probably
won't reply, but, but leave him alone.

So I emailed off the book with a, you
know, a couple of little paragraphs

explaining what I was up to.

I didn't expect to hear from anybody.

And then about a day or two later,
I got an email back from King and he

said, I love this, go ahead and use it.

Let me know if you need anything.

And you know, ultimately the
book came out, I, I indie

published that very first one.

Sales were okay at the.

The start, but nothing spectacular.

And I hired a friend of mine to do
PR somebody I had worked with back

in the music business years earlier.

And I told her about this failed trip
to Stephen King's house and she said,

you know what, that's the story.

So she reached out to a bunch of
publications and ultimately Publishers

Weekly wrote a story about this new author
trying to get to Stephen King's house

to get his permission for use in a book.

And that story came out and librarians
read it, bookstore owners read it.

And, you know, all of a sudden they
started ordering the books and that's

where, where sales really took off.

Rupert Isaacson: What's interesting
to me about that is that, A, he had

the time and the bandwidth to read
that book because, you know, I mean,

I'm sure people send you manuscripts.

Do you have the time to
read them, you know, maybe

JD Barker: no, you know, like I, I
probably get, I, I know he gets over

a hundred books a month cause I've
gotten to know him a little bit.

And you know, he doesn't
read hardly any of them.

I take it at the time.

I didn't.

Yours.

I didn't realize how rare of a thing
it was, you know, being autistic,

it's one, one of my superpowers,
the way my wife describes it is

I don't take no for an answer.

I don't really see, you know, the
possibility of a failure, you know, like

I personally, I feel like I would rather
ask the question, turn me down that

they're not asked the question at all.

So I just always approach things that way.

Why do

Rupert Isaacson: you think he picked
yours out of that hundred in the month?

JD Barker: If I had to guess just because
it came in, you know, through that email

address, you know, which probably nobody
has you know, and, and, you know, I was

recommended to him by a mutual friend.

You know, so it was a, but I mean,
like he's, he's just an all around.

Very, very nice guy.

So I send him every book that I put out.

And I had one a few years
back called a caller's game.

And I shipped it to him from Amazon
and I got a phone call from the

Amazon driver when he was delivering.

And he said, listen, it's
pouring rain out here.

I left the book at your gate.

You know, can you come out and get it?

You know, and this wasn't my
house at Stephen King's house.

So I, so I emailed King and I told him
that, you know, Amazon left this book

outside, he got his umbrella out, got his
raincoat out, went out there in this nasty

weather just to get that book, you know,
from, from his gate and bring it back

into his house, you know, like a lesser
guy would have probably just let it out.

You know, left it out there to rot,
but like, that's just the kind of guy

that he, that he is, you know, he, he
remembers what it was like he wrote,

you know, when he wrote Carrie, he
wrote that in a trailer, you know,

between a washer and dryer, you
know, like he came from nothing, you

know, and he knows what that's like.

And, you know, that, that
struggle is, is very real.

I think for all of us authors.

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

The other thing that surprises me is
that of course he might've decided sure

you can use it, but as you know, authors
don't necessarily own their books.

So if someone was to ask me.

If they could use something from
my book, I'd have to check with

my publishers because effectively
they own that book, not me.

So, why didn't his publishers kick
up a fuss and say, No, no, this J.

D.

Barker guy, he's got to pay,
you know, 20k to use that.

Blah, blah, blah.

JD Barker: King has been in this industry
for a very long time and he, you know,

he knows the business inside and out.

I'm sure he, he looked, you
know, he looks very closely

at every one of his contracts.

He knows what he can do
and what he can't do.

But I totally understand
what you're saying.

Like, I've got a fantastic agent who
is very good at spotting those things.

Usually, you know, removes that kind of
stuff, you know, from, from a contract.

But I've got film and TV deals
in place now where certain

characters are owned by a studio.

Yeah, so I can't put out.

I can't use my own characters in
some situations without getting

in the studio to sign off on it.

And the funny thing is, you know,
the forsaken, you know, like

it's, it's the only book that I've
written so far that hasn't been

optioned at some point for a movie.

And usually the, the turning point
is because they find out about King's

involvement because, you know, they, they
love the story, they're ready to make it.

It's, you know, a nice quick little
cheap horror movie that they could film,

but then they hear that it's tied from.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

To needful things and the lawyers
get ahold of that and they're

like, yeah, but you know, needful
things is optioned by so and so.

That means we have to get
permission from these people.

These people have to sign off on it.

It gets, it gets so muddy that
everybody just kind of walks away

slowly and doesn't do anything.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

I mean, Hollywood hates a lawsuit.

I.

In the in the horse boy which is the
main book that people know me for.

I used a very, very
small excerpt from a Dr.

Seuss book because that's what I used
to read to my autistic son and boy, oh

boy, the hoops I had to jump through
just to get, you know, this tiny little

thing and it cost me quite a lot of
money too, but it was worth it because

obviously it's part of the story.

I went through that
with once you get into.

Go ahead.

JD Barker: I went through the same
thing with frosty the snowman.

So I've got a book.

I wrote called the 5th to die and in it,
they find a body inside of a snowman.

And I just wanted to use a
couple lyrics from that song.

And I don't know if the rules are
different where you are, but in the US,

it's based on a percentage, like, the
words are basically a percentage of the

actual song that you're allowed to use
without permission anything over that.

Particular number, you have to get
permission, but frosty, the snowman

has so many repetitive lines in it.

You can't really get
away with the whole lot.

So, yeah, we had to chop it down and just
use little pieces, but it's, you know,

it's 1 of those songs where you can take
off 2 words and everybody knows the rest.

Exactly.

Get away with it.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Okay.

So, of the books, give us
a sort of chronology of the

books that you've written.

They are and where they've gone, like
which ones have gone to TV, which ones

have gone to film, which ones have been
option, but they haven't been made.

Just give us a bit of a
geography of your work.

JD Barker: Yeah, so
the 1st 1 was forsaken.

We've already talked about that.

While that was coming out, I wrote
a serial killer series called the

4th monkey 3 different books based
on a serial killer in Chicago.

That 1 went into the
publication rights sold.

We also sold it for a few.

Feature film and for a follow up TV
series with CBS while that was going on.

I wrote a prequel to Dracula
for Bram Stoker's family.

That one was picked up by Paramount
with any machete attached to direct.

I think the next one that I wrote after
that was a caller's game, which was

picked up by Ridley Scott's company.

She has a broken thing where
heart should be the Charles

Dickens retelling that 1 was done.

It's currently in development
as a, as a TV show.

There's so many, I'm trying to get
my, it's funny, I think I've got

12 books out there at this point.

So did

Rupert Isaacson: those

JD Barker: early ones get, get made?

No, that's the thing, like, in Hollywood,
like, everything has been optioned,

some of them over and over again,
nothing has actually been filmed yet.

At this point, it's kind of a
numbers game, you know, like,

I've got so many in the works, you
know, something is bound to happen.

But, like, it is com
Completely out of my control.

One of the things that I've learned
is when something gets optioned

usually they, they go in for a year.

They go in for like 18 months,
maybe two years at the onset.

But as soon as that option expires,
the folks in Hollywood know that it's

a known commodity, so they tend to jump
all over it, and somebody else usually

scoops up that option right away.

So things haven't been out of option
but things can get really crazy.

A friend of mine told me once, if you
watch the credits at the end of a movie,

you know all those names flying by.

It takes five or six minutes
to get through all of 'em.

Every one of those people had
to come together and be there in

order for that movie to make it.

To the screen and you know, it's like
this perfect storm that has to happen.

Oh, so I, I, I so hear you.

Yeah.

So like stuff, stuff can fall apart.

I mean, to give you an example, a
caller's game with Ridley Scott's company.

At one point I got a phone call
saying Jennifer Garner had signed on.

She loves the book.

She wants to make it.

Jennifer Garner had a, what's called
a first look deal with Netflix.

So now we had a studio.

Netflix greenlit a hundred million
dollar budget for the project.

All this stuff happened probably
within about two to three weeks.

Then we got another phone call.

Jennifer Garner's got
a scheduling conflict.

She's got to pull out, you know.

So our star went away, then Netflix
went away, and the budget went away.

You know, all this stuff, you know,
within a month, you know, it's

like this crazy roller coaster.

So honestly, like I, I keep my head down
and just kind of write the next book.

I know sooner or later
it's going to happen.

But I try not to get too
wrapped up in all that stuff.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, one of the
things which I found with this Cause

I've had a couple of books optioned and
then they stayed in option for gosh, a

decade, you know, and then one day and
yes, all sorts of actors were attached.

It's exactly as you described it.

It all goes very quiet.

And then you get a phone call saying,
ah, you know, this big person.

Or it's a person you've never
heard of that they tell you is big.

Particularly as you get older
like me and you sort of don't

know who the celebs are anymore.

And then it goes away
for this sort of thing.

That actress goes and has a baby
or it turns out that, as you say,

scheduling conflict or whatever.

But what I've found is Sometimes
I don't wait around, sometimes

I just go and make them myself.

And so I made a documentary, I made two TV
reality shows that way called The Quest.

Have you not considered just being a
producer and making one of them yourself?

For the cra

JD Barker: At some point I
might but, you know, like, I

know how to write a good book.

I know a good book is gonna bring
me, you know, a nice payday.

I do really well with them.

So, like, I just don't have the,
the bandwidth to branch out to, to

do other, other things like that.

Like, that would just take, there's,
once we figure out how to get 27

or 30 hours in a day, then I could
probably take something like that on.

But, but right now it's
just not happening.

And is all your publishing self
publishing, or are you with

several different mainstreams?

I've been all over the place.

So the, the Serial Killer series
I mentioned, that was with HMH,

which is now part of HarperCollins.

I've got books with Random House.

I indie published my first book.

And then I, I kind of did a hybrid
approach for a couple of books because

when, when you indie publish, you
know, the economics are fantastic.

You make about 70 cents on the dollar.

Traditional publishers are good
because they'll You know, they give

you a nice big advance check, but
you've got to pay that advance back.

And usually it's for
pennies on the dollar.

So you've got to sell a lot more
books to pay that money back than

if you were to indie publish it.

So after I got about four or
five books in that, I started

becoming very aware of that.

And I, I wanted to try and
take some of the control back.

So I did a hybrid approach.

I basically told my agent, I'm going
to retain English rights for myself.

So the various countries that speak
English, I'm going to put those out.

And she's more than welcome to
continue selling in all the foreign

territories for each of my books.

And I'm in about 150 different
countries, a little shy of 30 languages.

You know, so I've got,
it's a pretty decent pool.

She's still got to play in.

But I did that for a couple of
books and I really liked it.

Then about a year and a
half ago, I wrote a book.

called Behind a Closed Door, and I sent
it off to my agent, and at that point, I

was with a company called Writers House.

They started shopping it, and while they
were shopping it, we started getting

phone calls from the folks in Hollywood.

We ended up selling the film
option before we sold anything

on the publication rights.

The, the publishers got wind of
that, so then they, you know, all

the publishers all of a sudden wanted
this book because it's been optioned.

So the book was about to go to auction,
you know, meaning there were more than one

publishers that wanted to get involved.

And I got a phone call from a friend
of mine who worked at Random House, and

she said, listen, we're about to offer
on your book in this auction, and when

that happens, you need to turn it down.

And I asked her why, and she said,
well, we're about to lay off a

bunch of people, and the editor who
wants your book is on that list.

And there's nothing worse than having
a book, you know, that loses its

editor at a publisher, because that
book can sit there in limbo forever.

I got a similar phone call from
somebody at HarperCollins about a

week later, and then all these These
layoffs happened all across the

industry which really spooked me.

So I reached out to some friends of mine
that I used to work with in finance.

Simon and Schuster had just recently
been bought by a private equity firm.

So I started these back channel
conversations with Simon and Schuster,

and ultimately I created my own
imprint through Simon and Schuster.

We struck a deal where I basically
created my own publishing imprint.

Through Simon and Schuster, they handle
all of my print sales and distribution.

So I kind of get the best of both worlds.

I can put out whatever books I
want, whenever I want, but through

Simon and Schuster, which means
they get in all the places I

couldn't get to as an indie author.

So you'll find my books
in the big box stores.

You'll find them in the grocery
stores, the drug stores you know, any

place where, where books are sold.

So that's where I'm at today.

And I honestly love it.

I think it's the best possible
position I could be in.

Rupert Isaacson: I agree.

Now, of course wading through
the fine print of all those

contracts is a difficult thing.

Does your agent still handle all that?

Even when you're semi indie?

JD Barker: It, it depends on the contract,
and I've, I've got multiple agents.

I've got one that handles domestic
sales, another one that handles foreign.

I've got a film and television agent.

And I've got an attorney who kind
of, you know, oversees all of it.

So depending on what's coming down
the pike, I, I, you know, I, I tend to

pass it off to the right pair of eyes.

I try not to review that stuff on my
own, but, but, but I can, I mean, I, I

was, I was a chief compliance officer
at a brokerage firm for two decades.

You know, that, that's
all legal experience.

I've, I've been through
more contracts than.

You know, that I could name so I'm
capable of doing it, but it's always good.

Even, you know, even if I was an attorney,
I would still get a second pair of

eyes to look at some of these things.

Publishing contracts tend to be
pretty straightforward, but a film

and TV contract can be 300 pages long.

And, you know, they might say the
same thing five different ways in

different spots in the contract.

It's, it's best to have the right
person to look at that sort of thing.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

How did you go about
getting your first agent?

I know, so, the reason I'm asking that
question is, again, I know a lot of

people really want to write, and when
they have something good whether it's

an a proposal, if it's non fiction, or
they've actually written the book as

fiction, because Again, a little bit of
insider information for the listeners.

If you're going to write a memoir or
something like that, you can often

get a publishing deal with a very good
proposal, but for fiction, you almost

always have to write the whole book.

But once you've got that getting an
agent, of course, as you know, is.

Not just extremely useful.

It's kind of key.

How did you go about getting your agent?

And what advice have you got for
people now because the industry's

changed a lot since we came into it
so how did you get your first agent?

And then what would you say to
people who are coming into to it

now wanting to find a good agent?

JD Barker: Well, the first time
around, I did it completely wrong.

I had no idea what I was doing when it
came to like, I knew how to write a book.

I had no clue how to get an agent.

So I actually bought a list of 200
agents just an Excel spreadsheet

with all their contact information.

And I sent out a mass email
literally to whom it may

concern, you know, here, here's.

What my book is about, here's
the first three chapters.

I sent everybody the exact same thing,
which is not how you're supposed to do it.

If you go to an agent's website, everyone
tells you exactly what they want.

They're all different.

You know, this agent wants a PDF file.

This one wants a word document.

This one wants one chapter.

This one wants three.

They want it in an aerial font.

But this one wants Times New Roman.

Like every one of them is different.

You have to appease them.

You have to do what they're asking
because they will just hit that

delete button the second it comes in.

If it's not in the right format,
you know, without even looking

at what the book is about.

So the first time with Forsaken, I sent
all those out and I, and I didn't get

an agent, I got hardly any responses
because I basically did it wrong.

When it came time for the second
book, the fourth monkey, I had a

really strong sales record behind
me which makes things way easier.

You know, because they were
able to pull up my sales record.

They could see what I was
capable of moving, you know,

on my own as an indie author.

That's something that's very attractive
to the traditional publishers because

you've got a proven track record.

So I had no trouble getting an
agent the second time around.

I think I'd make very

Rupert Isaacson: How did, well,
how did you move all those

copies as The indie author.

I mean, I know that you had this great
story about trying to get to Stephen

King and then him, obviously reading
your book and so on, but nonetheless, to

actually move copies is another thing.

How did you do that?

JD Barker: Yeah, I mean, the Stephen
King helped a lot because it, you

know, it kind of spurred things.

You have to have a good book.

That's key.

A lot of people think they don't
even consider that, but you

have to have a five star read.

It has to be the kind of book
where somebody reads it and

they tell five people about it.

Because word of mouth is
what really sells books.

That particular book, and luckily
a lot of mine have had that That

kind of power, you know, people
just tell their friends about them.

They read one.

They've got to read the next five
that I write, so I've been really

lucky when it comes to that.

I did a lot of advertising very
early on Facebook and Amazon ads

before it was really popular.

I did a lot of translations early
on before indie authors were

really doing that sort of thing.

I hired my own translators and
put the books out in different

countries all on my own.

You know, and, and the
margins are much better.

And I took that same, you know, that
money and I was able to roll it back

into more advertising and it just
becomes this self fulfilling machine.

So you were basically

Rupert Isaacson: using your savings to
do those translations, buy those ads,

because that's the other thing is people
have to know that the book exists.

They need to know that it's out there.

What would you say it costs you?

To put that first book out,

JD Barker: I think I spent about
1, 000 on the cover, maybe another

2, 000 for formatting and editing
probably all in maybe 5, 000 or

so to, to get it out the door.

The audio book, I think I
paid 400 per finished hour.

So that was about another 4 or 5, 000.

But I made that back like within the
first month easily on audio books.

You know, they're, they're not
quite as lucrative as they used

to be, but they, you can still, I
mean, they're a huge profit center.

Yeah, I think every author
should be doing that sort

Rupert Isaacson: of thing.

That's not cheap.

So you're 10 grand in there.

What did you spend on the advertising?

JD Barker: Oh, I mean, there is points in
my career where I've spent 000 in a month.

I've done that within a week
of publication on one book.

I spent, I think, 15, 000 in seven days.

Right.

It's all about, for me, it's
about watching the metrics.

As long as the money coming in
exceeds the money going out.

Rupert Isaacson: But that first
book, your first time author, you,

you know, you're doing a bit of
a financial white knuckle ride.

What would you say?

Okay, wait.

So we're 10 grand in for the production.

What would you say it cost you in the
advertising and going back remembering?

This is what?

20 years ago or 15

JD Barker: years ago, it
was about 10 years ago.

I, I don't, I, I couldn't give
you a number without going

back to the spreadsheets.

I, I, it, it got significant at one point.

But you know, your dollars, we know
it's not cheaper back in those days.

No, I mean, like I was getting
click throughs at like, you

know, 5, 10 cents back back then.

Like in today's world,
you just don't get that.

There's, there's, it's
too crowded of a market.

So it's just, it's completely different.

You know, book bump back then, like
you would get one book bump deal

and you'd move, you know, 5, 10.

Thousand copies in a day you
know, like that just doesn't

happen anymore with book.

Bob, I'm, I'm always looking for like the
next biggest thing, you know, from what

I've been able to tell over the years,
if I see all the other indie authors out

there talking about it, doing something at
that point it's, it's too late, you know,

like it's time to find the next big thing.

If you do what everybody else
is doing, you're just going to

kind of get lost in that mix.

Rupert Isaacson: And how do
you find, how do you go about

finding that new big thing?

Again, there'll be, there'll
be young authors out there

needing this information.

JD Barker: Yeah, so that, I think
the autistic person in me is, is what

really leads that charge, you know.

I, I look at a problem and I look
for a solution to that problem.

So, to give you an example TikTok.

When TikTok first came out You
know, I started watching it, trying

to figure out, like, how can an
author move a book on tick tock?

And, you know, I quickly realized
nobody wants to see me dancing around

in a bathing suit, holding up my book.

That's not going to work.

It's not scalable.

It's, you know, it's, it's one of
those things, like, it's just not, you

know, I couldn't do it enough of that.

Like, so what I ultimately ended up doing,
I, I hired a couple of college kids.

They combed through book talk, which
was the hashtag used for tick tock.

And they started gathering email
addresses of all the people that were.

pushing books on Tick Tock.

And ultimately I put together a
list of about, I think it's 3, 500

to 4, 000 book talk influencers.

The smallest one's got
a thousand followers.

The biggest one is a
little shy of a million.

And we created a company
called best of book talks.

So once a week we put out an email
that goes to those influencers.

I get ARC copies from the
traditional publishers for free.

That I can give to those influencers.

So it's very similar to book
Bob, but for influencers.

So they get an email of five or 10 titles.

They can say, okay, I want this
one, this one, and this one.

And my company arranges the,
the ARCs to go to them directly.

So now I've got this giant
tool that has this mailing

list that goes out once a week.

Anytime I want to push my own titles,
I can put them in there and get

them in front of that large group.

You know, millions and millions of
followers all in one shot essentially

for free because I'm piggybacking
on a company that I already own.

Versus, you know, me trying to
create videos just hoping to go

viral and create something, you
know, like everybody else is doing.

So that, that's the
kind of thing that I do.

I look for What gave you the

Rupert Isaacson: idea to start,
that's brilliant, what gave you

that idea to start a company to
supply these people with books?

JD Barker: My accountant, because
if you once you start doing anything

that brings in any kind of revenue,
it's best to break it off from the

other revenue generating sources.

So, you know, became an LLC.

Then it became a corporation.

I've done that quite a few
times over the, you know, over

my career, just creating stuff.

You know, it's like throwing
spaghetti at a wall.

I mean, for every 10 things that I create,
one of them might actually work out.

But if I don't try, you know, like,
none of them are going to work out.

So I'm always trying something different.

Rupert Isaacson: And in order to
get, so, so when you're putting the

titles, I presume you still do this
in front of these booktok influencers.

How do you get these titles?

How can you be sure that
you can deliver them?

Because that's distribution effectively.

How do you become that distributor?

JD Barker: It's all
already done in advance.

So while the influencers are signing
up and working on that portion of the

list, getting the email and requesting
books, publishers are basically bidding

for those spots within the email, just
like if you're as an author, you try to

get a spot on book, Bob, you have to pay
book Bob to be on that particular email.

So every book that's listed is
a bought and paid for a spot

from the traditional publishers.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

But I guess, I guess for me, what I'm
trying to understand is you are, you are,

are you sending them physical copies or
are you just No, we just, we pass them

recommending that they read something?

JD Barker: No, we, we
give them two options.

So they can either download the ebook,
you know, which we, we set up the,

the download link so they can actually
download directly to their Kindle

or they can request a physical copy.

And if they request a physical copy
that their information goes into a

form and that data gets transmitted
to the publisher, and then the

publisher actually mails them out.

So we don't physically
have to touch anything.

And how how do you choose which
titles to put in front of them?

We get a lot of submissions from
the, from all the publishers.

So we just kind of pick through them
and, you know, pick our, our favourites.

What we feel is, is going to work.

You know, over time we've learned what
the audience on TikTok is looking for too.

Like we know they're not going to
resonate with like a children's book.

Westerns don't do particularly well.

It's, it's really fantasy and romance
and thrillers, you know, come third.

So, you know, we've
learned that over time.

And we, we keep that in
mind as we pick the titles.

So it's mostly fantasy.

Fantasy tends to be the
biggest right now, yeah.

Across the board.

This sounds like a full time job.

How do you have time to write?

I hire other people.

I mean, you know, it starts off as
an idea coming out of my head then

I usually rope in, you know, one of
my assistants or somebody to help me

then it just kind of grows from there.

I mean, at this point there's
four different people that work

on best of book talk alone.

They're in the middle, like, right
now, if things Continue tick tock is

going to get shut down here in the U.

S.

As of this coming Sunday.

So they've been scrambling to try
and figure out what comes next.

So we've, we've already purchased
all the domains for like best of

books to Graham and, you know, like
basically all the other platforms.

The nice thing is in, in, you
know, in that particular world

and influencer, they don't just
put book reviews on a tick tock.

They tend to put it out on all the
different social media platforms.

So it's going to be a
sideways step for all of them.

It's just at this point, nobody knows
where that sideways step is going to be.

Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.

I mean you say you just hire other people,
but of course that takes, you know, There

must be a point where you're prototyping
an idea like that, best of booktok,

where you have to just do it yourself and
bootstrap it and then see if it works and

then Hire other people because of course
that's expensive or do you take do you

take the risk and just hire right away?

JD Barker: No, no, it tends to grow
like I tend to do, you know, like

99 percent of the work at the very
beginning Then I bring in other people

on a 50 percent of that Just kind of
whittle away at it until I get into the

I fall into more of a supervisory role

Rupert Isaacson: How long would you
say you're having to do all of it

before you can hand it over to say 50%?

JD Barker: It really
depends on the entity.

I mean, that that one
took off straight away.

You know, as soon as we put it out there,
we got reception from the publishers.

We got reception from the influencers.

I knew it was going to grow, and I
knew I'd be able to scale it right now.

We're trying to decide.

Do we want to scale into other languages?

Do we want it?

We're only doing one email a week,
and we could easily create one

email for thrillers, another one for
fantasy, another one for romance,

put out three or four emails a week.

So those are the kind of
conversations we're having internally.

Rupert Isaacson: So, with something
like that, you're, you're writing,

now you're sort of influencing.

The next step, presumably,
sounds like publishing.

Are you going to become a publisher?

JD Barker: Well, I, I sort of already am
with my arrangement with Simon Schuster,

so I've, I've got that covered too.

Rupert Isaacson: But in
terms of publishing other

people and becoming a house?

JD Barker: I've thought about it.

I'm doing a lot of work with
coauthors, which I'm really enjoying.

You know, I've got a ton of
ideas, but I've only had so much

time to write books on my own.

So every once in a while, I'll come up
with an idea and I'll create it and bring

in somebody else to write it with me.

And I love doing that.

I mean, I've got a book I just.

That released in November called heavier.

The stones.

I wrote it with a woman named
Christine Daigle, who's a

neuropsychologist in real life.

You know, so she was able to
bring that mindset and that skill

set into the writing process.

And, you know, as an author,
I can fake my way through it.

I can do a bunch of Google searches.

I can research and I can
kind of create a character.

That's a neuropsychologist
and make it seem authentic.

But having somebody who really does
that in real life as part of the writing

process, you know, you can't beat that.

So, you know, I'm working with a
ton of co authors just to try and.

Yeah.

To strengthen that and, you
know, increases the number of

books that I'm putting out.

So it's kind of a win win for everybody.

Rupert Isaacson: And when you
work with co authors, are you

doing a work for hire thing?

Are you paying them a fee and then they
also get a percentage of a royalty?

How does that work?

JD Barker: Accounting for something
like this can get really complicated if

you do it as on a split you know, split
royalty basis, so I just do it as a work

for hire you know, they're basically
coming in, you know, mainly for the

exposure and for the learning curve I
can teach them how to write a thriller,

a solid thriller from start to finish.

And most of the authors that I bring in,
you know, they're good, but they're not.

And then the flip side, when
the book comes out, it's coming

out through Simon and Schuster.

It's coming out worldwide.

You know, so they're, they're basically,
they've got a book with their name on

it and all these places they could never
get to on their own which means when they

write their next book, you know, it makes
it that much easier because an agent's

going to look them up and they're going
to see they've had titles, you know,

at all, you know, all these different
places, all these different languages.

They've got a proven track record,
which makes it that much easier.

So, yeah, Again, it's, it's
a win win for everybody.

Rupert Isaacson: So you give them, you
give them room on the, on the book jacket.

You say this is, you know, J.

D.

Barker with so and so, or J.

D.

Barker and so and so.

JD Barker: Yeah, yeah.

I make it very clear that it
was written with somebody else.

I give everybody the credit
that they have coming to them.

You know, it's coming out of the world
when I, you know, I didn't get that credit

when my name wasn't even on the cover.

I'm very cognizant of it to make
sure that they get what they deserve.

Rupert Isaacson: And how do
you find your co writers?

That's not, that's not
necessarily an easy thing to find.

Especially good ones.

JD Barker: No.

You know, a lot of them, it's funny
because they'll have a book coming out

and their agent will send me an ARC
copy or their publisher will send me

one so I pick up on people that way.

I meet a lot of authors at writer
conferences a lot of authors in today's

world, they know that I'm doing this,
so they talk to each other, you know, I

get a lot of recommendations that way.

There's never been a shortage.

It's really about, you know, picking
the quality of the, the names that

come in, the, the process, you know,
the people that come through my door.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, indeed.

And that's not always.

A given, right?

Because you

JD Barker: No, I mean You
don't necessarily know how

Rupert Isaacson: well
they write until you try.

JD Barker: I really think that writing
is, you know, like there's a writer's

gene, you know, like somebody can either
tell a story or they can't tell a story.

Yeah, yeah.

I think you're born with that.

All the basics, the grammar rules,
punctuation, all that kind of

stuff, like that can be taught.

But that writer gene, the
storyteller gene, can't be.

So I really look for that.

If I find somebody who I feel can tell
a story But need some work on something

else that I can fix, I'm, I'm all in.

But, you know, they could have
perfect grammar, perfect punctuation,

their pacing might be great, but if
they can't tell a story, you know,

it's like reading a textbook, and
you know, it just, that won't work.

Rupert Isaacson: So you're looking,
in general, for sort of first

time authors who might be looking
for a break, would that be right?

And have they already written
something so that you can test

whether or not they're any goods?

JD Barker: Some have, some have written
full books, other ones have only written

short stories some work in the newspaper
or magazine or, you know, they're doing

something else online where they're
writing, but not quite at the novel

stage you know, so that it all kind of
depends if they've got a book out there,

then obviously I've got an easy sample.

I can read if they've never
written fiction before.

I'll give them some kind of an
assignment to see what they come up with.

You know, everyone is different.

I don't think one project has come
together the same way as another one.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

And then in terms of when you are co
authoring, it's an intriguing thing,

and I think a lot of people listening to
this would, you know, see an opportunity

there, because there will be among our
listeners some decent writers there who

maybe could see this as an opportunity.

Roughly what percentage of the
book would you say they write?

JD Barker: They, they write almost all of
it and, and that's, you know, on purpose,

you know, not because I don't want to
do the work, but because if I write it,

they're not going to learn anything.

So I hold their hand
through the entire process.

We come up with the title together.

We come up with the tagline together.

We write the backup book blurb, you
know, which is a text that you'd

find on the back of a paperback.

I make them do all that stuff.

Create it, you know, at the
get go before we do anything

related to the writing process.

Like, whenever I write a book,
the tagline is always on a

piece of tape on my monitor.

I read it every single day
before I start writing.

Same thing with the, the, about the
book, you know, the back of book text.

Like, I feel like if you read that
every day before you start writing,

it's always going to keep you on
task to make sure you write the

book that you're supposed to write.

So I forced them to create
all those different parts.

Once we've got those, I walk them
through the outlining process.

You know, we, we outline the
book from start to finish.

And, you know, I.

I keep we keep going at it and
going at it until it's perfect, you

know, I basically teach them what
they're what they're doing wrong.

I tell them what I would change in it.

You know, we just we keep going back
and forth on it till we get an outline.

That's solid.

And then we start the writing process
and I hold their hand chapter by

chapter sentence by sentence and walk
them through everything that I've

learned, you know, working with people
like James Patterson and then when

Rupert Isaacson: you And then
when you If you were to average

it out, what would you say that co
authoring process takes you per book?

Is it a year?

Is it two years?

Is it six months?

What is it?

JD Barker: You know,
everybody's different.

I got an email this morning from one
where he literally just said, We just

had our two year anniversary, and here's
the final, you know, finished draft.

You know, he just went through
like my, my last round of edits and

comments and stuff, and he just cleaned
it all up and got it back to me.

So that one took 2 years.

I've got other ones that
are done in 6 months.

You know, for me personally, I, I
can write a book in 3 to 4 months.

Everybody's different.

The nice thing about
this is there's no rush.

You know, I, I, I want it to be perfect.

I want it to be right.

And I, you know, if it takes 5 years,
if it takes 10 years, I don't care.

But I, you know, I'm not going
to rush something through just

for the sake of getting it done.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

But of course, you know economically
these people presumably they have day

jobs or side hustles or other things
that they're doing What's the what

would you say is the average rate like?

If someone's listening to this, I
think, well, maybe I'd like to have

a go at that co authoring thing.

But I'm not yet, you know,
a, a, a very, a known author.

So my place in the marketplace is
very much in the sort of beginner.

What, what could somebody expect?

What's the average that someone
could expect to, to earn in a, for

a job like that, work for hire?

JD Barker: I don't want to get
into the economics of it because

it's different for, for everybody.

I mean, I approach it based on their,
their financial situation from a time

standpoint, I would say probably a
year on the short end somebody who's

not familiar with writing a book.

You know, if they've only got experience
in nonfiction or, or short stories or

something like that, it's probably a
year and a half to 2 years from start to

Rupert Isaacson: finish.

Right?

I'm just, just thinking, you know,
some people might think, oh, my

gosh, would I be able to like,
you know, live for a year on that?

I would imagine the answer
would probably be no, right?

They'd have to have other
sources of income, no?

Probably.

JD Barker: Yeah, no, I mean, the point
of this isn't, isn't the money you

know, what this really stemmed from
like years back, I was mentoring a

lot of authors, you know, I was, you
know, basically teaching them how to do

this, but they paid me for that and I
felt icky about taking money for this

kind of thing, but I had to charge
because it kind of weeded people out.

Well, it also takes time.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

JD Barker: Yeah.

So, but I basically flipped the model
on its head and instead of them paying

me for, for a mentorship situation,
I pay them for the finished book.

So they do walk away with something,
you know, rather, rather than, you

know, what they were doing before.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

And then you said that you co
authored with James Patterson,

who's obviously a huge name.

How did that come about?

JD Barker: He read The Fourth Monkey.

We, the publisher sent it to him
hoping to get one of those blurbs,

you know, one sentence on the back.

And he, he read it and, and felt
strongly about it and reached out and

asked if I wanted to co author with him.

Rupert Isaacson: Fantastic.

So he also wants to get More books out
there than he himself has time to do.

So did he some degree mentor
you through that model?

JD Barker: Yeah, absolutely.

I mean he's he's been a huge mentor,
you know, not only on the writing

front, but also the business side

Rupert Isaacson: Wonderful and
on on his books, would you get

your book on your your name?

JD Barker: Yeah, we actually have fine.

Would it just be

Rupert Isaacson: them

JD Barker: in, in the, in our contract,
it, it says that my name has to be printed

in an equal font size to his mm-hmm

Um, in, in, in America o other countries.

It's, it's different.

I think, I think you're in the uk, right?

It's so like some places that rule
applies, some places it doesn't, but he

knows that I'm doing this for exposure,
you know, so he's, he's got no problem

with, you know, giving me the name
recognition and I bring a pretty big

audience to every book that we coauthored
together, which, which is helpful.

Rupert Isaacson: And if somebody wanted
to get into coauthoring obviously

there's a contract involved, I presume.

Would you have your agent or your
lawyer draw up that contract?

Would you encourage them to get
their own Representative to check

that contract over like what
would your advice be for a newbie?

JD Barker: Yeah, I would never sign
anything, you know without having you

know, the proper set of eyes look at it
You know, so even if I send a contract off

to somebody else I always encourage them
to you know, get their attorney to look at

it You know, make sure they're comfortable
with all the language in it In a business

like this you have to you have to be very

Rupert Isaacson: careful No doubt,
but I mean there's gonna be people

who are like, you know Barely, you
know, paying the rent, how are they

going to afford to get an attorney?

Like how can they, if they're
sort of young and hungry,

get to grips with the contract without,
without that, or do they have to just

sort of go get the money from somewhere
and actually find themselves an attorney?

I, if it were me, I know I would.

Yeah.

Yeah.

JD Barker: If I was, if I was penniless,
I wouldn't put my name on something,

you know, signing an agreement without
understanding exactly what's there.

Rupert Isaacson: Because I presume
it also has to be a, an entertainment

attorney or a media savvy attorney.

It can't just be sort of your
friend that does real estate

law or something like that.

JD Barker: Yeah, exactly.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Well, that's that's fascinating.

So effectively, yes I mean that
does sort of make you a little bit.

It sounds less like a publishing house
and more like the old Renaissance

painter studio idea where you might,
you know, buy a painting that's

after Raphael or you know or
might even say Raphael Titian, but

it came from the Studio of that
painted because he couldn't possibly

paint all the commissions himself.

So we'd have, you know, teams and
teams of young artists who would

eventually, of course, make it and then
go off and create their own studios.

Yeah,

Let's just quickly give, give everyone all
the, the titles and, and the websites and,

and social media that they need to find
to get to including your book talk stuff.

And then if there's just any
closing words you'd like to.

We'll do that.

So how, how do people find you if
they want to buy your books, if

they want to work with you, if they
wanted to protect, to, to approach

you for co authoring or something.

How do people do this?

And give us your title list as well,
so people can find you on Amazon.

JD Barker: Sure.

So the easiest place to find
me is JD Barker dot com.

If you're interested in the coauthoring
thing, there is a contact button

on there with with a little form.

Just fill that out and
send your information and

I'll reach back out to you.

The books can be found
pretty much everywhere.

I'm in bookstores all around the world.

You know, everywhere online.

I've got a number of titles coming
out over the next couple of months.

We don't talk about Emma comes out
in February first week of February.

I've got another book called the writer
that I wrote with James Patterson

coming out in beginning of March.

And my next solo title comes out in May.

It's called something I keep upstairs.

Which is probably the scariest
book I think I've ever written.

I, it took me about four years to
actually get that one done because I, I

kept freaking myself out and had to put
it aside and kind of come back to it.

But I, I got it done.

I'm glad that it.

I'm glad that it's
finished and comes out in

Rupert Isaacson: May.

JD Barker: Alright, well I appreciate it.

Thanks for having me.

Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for coming on.

It's been a pleasure.

Bye.

Bye Thank you for joining us.

We hope you enjoyed today's podcast.

Join our website, new trails learning.com,

to check out our online courses
and live workshops in Horse Boy

Method, movement Method, and Athena.

These evidence-based programs have
helped children, veterans, and people

dealing with trauma around the world.

We also offer a horse training
program and self-care program

for riders on long ride home.com.

These include easy to do online
courses and tutorials that

bring you and your horse joy.

For an overview of all shows and
programs, go to rupert isaacson.com.

See you on the next show.

And please remember to
press, subscribe and share.