Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.

Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New
York Times bestselling author of

The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.

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So now let's jump in.

Welcome back to Live Free, ride Free.

I've got the legend, Robin
Handbury Tenon and his son Merlin.

Today, if you don't know who Robin
Handbury Tenon is, you might know

actually some of the work he's done.

But he's been a bit of a ance,
squeeze a power behind many beneficial

effects on the planet and on peoples.

And it's very dear to my heart because
those of you who know my story know that

I worked for a long time with Sun Bushman
in the Kalahari, helping them get legal

title to their ancestral land after
they'd been illegally evicted in Botswana.

And had it not been for the British
organization, survival International.

Who we did all our British work through.

We did some of it in America,
some of it in the uk.

There would have been nothing.

And the man behind Survival
International who founded it is the

man sitting here, Robin Bury Tenison.

So I owe a great debt of gratitude.

But we all do.

And the reason is because the sand
bushmen actually are common ancestors.

If they had disappeared off the
planet, which they were in grave

danger of doing back in the early
two thousands, that would be like

us losing touch with ourselves.

They are the original oldest
culture on the planet.

And it's easy to kind of think roll
your eyes at something like that,

but you don't miss it till it's gone.

And about every generation there
are threats to people like this.

And a man like Robin.

You know, steps in and
does something about it.

And so I'm very grateful to Mr.

Ry Tenon here.

And I'm very, very glad that his
son Merlin is a chip off the old

block because he's doing something
rather amazing for us all as well.

So that's my preamble.

Lads, would you tell us who you
are, what you do, and why you do it?

Do you wanna kick off?

Yeah.

Age first.

Robin Hanbury-Tenison: I think age first.

Age first.

I think, well, the other side of my life,
apart from the wonderful introduction

you gave me on, on background survival
International, which I'm hugely proud

of, and which has done so much work
in the field of indigenous people.

The other big thing I did was to lead
the biggest scientific expedition

Britain ever mount to understand
how the rainforests work in Borneo.

And I lived there for 15 months
with a great group of scientists.

We cracked the rainforest code.

We worked out why you can have this lush
rainforest going on what is effectively a

desert and why you shouldn't cut it down.

It didn't help.

It's cut it down so much over the
last 40 years since the expedition.

And but my life had been much
devoted to scientific research into

tropical rainforests, only to find
the back on my little hill farm on

Bob Monroe, which me now runs, runs.

We had the last remnant, one of the last
remnants of temperate rainforest, which

is just as rich and incredibly rare.

And so suddenly my focus, having
been on tropical, is now all

about temperate rainforests,
which Merlin will tell you about.

Rupert Isaacson: You said just now
that you cracked the rainforest

code, I just get to, I get to Merlin
a mo, but you can't say something

like that and not have me jump.

Okay.

What does that mean?

What, how do you crack a rainforest code?

What, what is the rainforest code?

Robin Hanbury-Tenison: Quite
right to pick me up on that.

For a long time, people couldn't
understand how this incredibly

rich and lush di biodiverse habitat
could exist on something which is

effectively a desert because there's
no soil under the reef forest.

There's no humus like we
used to in Northern Europe.

Okay?

There's just about an inch of soil.

And when you cut the trees down of soil
rushes away, and it becomes a desert.

How can that possibly happen?

And a lot of people were researching it,
and the big thing we cracked was to find

out how it happens and what the, the
story is that the nutrients are reabsorbed

almost instantly as they hit the ground
by all the millis and centipedes.

And, and they get caught up in
the rootlet systems and micro

are immediately back in the tree.

So the tree is containing all its
nutrients and recycling them in itself.

And therefore, it's another reason
apart from the many other reasons why

you shouldn't cut tropical rainforest
down because you will create a desert.

I'm doing

Rupert Isaacson: Wow, this I didn't know
because I would've assumed that any.

Forest that's anywhere in the
world that's sat there for some

generations must be sitting on a
massive layer of hummus, right?

Because leaves are falling, bark is
falling, biomass is falling, right?

I mean, okay, I'm gonna return to
this, but the question I'm gonna

return to, 'cause I don't, you know,
we need to find out who Merlin is here.

But the question I'm gonna pick up is,
why doesn't that happen in every forest?

Why is that specific
to tropical rainforest?

'cause now I want to know, but Merlin,
who are you and why are you here?

And what, what

do you do?

I.

Thank you so much for,
for having me here Rupert.

And it's it's always challenging following
my father 'cause he casts along shadow

and has done such amazing things.

But but it, but it's a huge pleasure
and honor always to do these these

father son conversations together.

'cause he, it's wonderful
to bounce off each other.

So I, I grew up here on this,
this hill farm or Bob and Moore.

So I'm, we're both currently
sitting on the, on the farm in

the, in the heart of Cornwall.

With my father going off on these
exciting and in incredible expeditions

to far-flung tropical regions.

And when I was 19, I, I left and
joined the army and it was at a

time when the military was, was very
busy in the early two thousands.

And I subsequently went on three
tours, three combat tours of

Afghanistan in quite quick succession.

And on one of these I was blown up
in a, a roadside bomb by the Taliban

and was very fortunate to come
away physically, almost unscathed.

And, and to continue an enjoyable military
career before leaving the army to, to get

married and going and working in London.

And it was while working in
London that I began to suffer

from quite poor mental health.

And, and some of that was experiences in,
in the military especially being blown up,

coming back to haunt me in a form of PTSD.

But, but much of it was also related to,
I think, what's far more recognizable

to most people, which is just the
stresses and the pressure and the, in

many ways, unpleasantness of working
in these fast-paced urban environments.

Mm-hmm.

And I was extremely lucky
that I had cabilla this.

Gorgeous valley in the heart of Bob
and Moore with this slice of Atlantic

temperate rainforest, a term that
we weren't even that familiar with

at the time in the heart of it.

And I was able to retrieve into that
space and come and hide down there and

heal down there and, and, and really
fall in love, re fall in love 'cause it

had been the playground of my childhood.

But, but really begin to understand
how important these habitats are.

And at the same time my wife Lizzie and
I were trying to start a family and she

was going through problems which are,
are all too common and far too little

understood and, and, and suffering from a,
a couple of really traumatic miscarriages.

And she was using this valley
as a place of healing for her.

And then a couple of years later,
and I'm sure we, we may come onto

this, but my father got very, very
severe COVID back in 2020 and was

sedated for seven weeks in hospital.

And we were told by the doctors that
he was almost certainly gonna die

and wasn't gonna come back to us.

He was already in his mid
eighties at that point.

He is extremely old.

And and we were told there was no
way he was gonna come home and.

That boy immediately, sir.

Rupert Isaacson: And,

and he he, he did come home.

I mean, he is remarkable for his
age though, and he, and he, he

healed within this forest as well.

And so we had these three stories of
my personal psychological healing,

my wife Lizzie's, psychological and
physical healing, and my father's

physical healing within this habitat.

And it set me on an obsessive path to
not only bring more people into the

Atlantic temperate rainforest that we
had at Cabilla Veterans with P ts d.

This is what Lizzie and I were obsessed
about, bringing veterans with PTSD women

on their fertility journeys, nurses
from the NHS, suffering from stress

and burnout, corporate professionals
going through the same challenges

we've been going through, but also
to elevate, highlight, restore,

and protect this habitat because.

The point that I really love here is
that my father has made this point.

He just disappeared off screen.

I hope he is not upset coming down.

Exactly.

He's not upset with anything I've said.

But we, we all know whether you are eight
or 80, we all know about how important

tropical rainforests are and how they
are the lungs of the planet, and how

they are our most important habitats
that are being degraded and deforested.

And the reason we know that is because
of many, many expeditions that have been

run, but my father's ones especially,
which have cracked the rainforest

code and shown us that the tropical
rainforest, like the Amazon and Borneo

are the lungs of the planet and the most
important habitat from a biodiversity

and a climate mitigation, and a a, a
general planetary equilibrium perspective.

And so we all, when we hear
the word rainforest, we think

of places like the Amazon.

We've forgotten that actually once
Britain was a rainforest island, 20%

of the United Kingdom was a rainforest
landscape just a few thousand years ago.

And my mission, my dream is to help
to be a part of reminding everybody

that Britain is a rainforest island
and we are a rainforest people.

And it should be as important to us
as it is to the people of tropical

countries who have rainforest very
much as a part of our culture.

And that is why we started our
business, Camilla Cornwall, and our

charity of a thousand Year Trust
and the work that we're doing now.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so I just
want this, this podcast goes out

across the English speaking world.

So not everyone knows what Cornwall is,
and not everybody knows what Bob Moore is.

And not everybody knows that
there are temperate rainforests.

So just for the listeners, I want you
to picture when you think of Lord of the

Rings and you see elves coming through
the Misty Feny, mossy Bouldery, greeny.

Thing that's a temperate rainforest.

And the reason why it has that miasma
is actually water that 'cause it's a

very, very high rainfall area where the
UK sits juts out into the Atlantic and

sits in what's called the Gulf Stream
because we're actually on a, on a, on a

latitude with kind of Northern Alaska.

And if it wasn't for
that, we'd be shivering.

But no, we, we, we have
this high rainfall.

Some people say it's rather gloomy and
gray, but it's not dissimilar to the

Pacific Northwest in the US or British
Columbia, coastal British Columbia.

So, so if you think about that,
so if you've watched Vikings or

if you watch the Lord of the Rings
and you, they went to temperate

rainforests and they filmed there.

So whether it was in New Zealand,
whether it was in Canada for Vikings

and there are pockets of this still
left in the uk and it's something

I've been aware of for a long time.

Because I used to, although
I was brought up in.

Partly in London and partly in
Leicestershire, which is on the

eastern side of the uk, which does
not get that particular climate.

So North Sea climate gets scoured by
the winds from Siberia, this western

Celtic side of the planet, which all
the Celts got pushed into by the Romans.

So therefore, it has all the
sort of mysterious mythology

and spirituality as well.

All kind of combine to
this rather magical thing.

This magical thing is what you all
are looking to revive and protect.

No.

That's absolutely right and
you are, you're quite right.

Fand Forest is a temperate rainforest,
Jeffrey of Monmouth Arthurian Legends,

the ma ian Lewis Carroll's jab walkie.

These are all set within
temper rainforest.

These are rainforest myths.

We just weren't using that term.

And they are not only our most folkloric
and, and allic habitats for that

reason, but they're also a pinnacle
habitat for many scientific reasons.

So they are our most carbon sequestering
habitat that we can restore and

plant territory to terres in the uk.

So they suck more CO2 outta
the air than anything else at a

time of high climate challenge.

That's really important.

We're also in the uk, the
most nature depleted country.

In Europe and, and temperate rainforest
restore that biodiversity abundance,

which is so important and bring
back that layering of life better

than anything else we can restore.

But I think most importantly, they are
the best habitat that we have in the

UK for the mental health and wellbeing
of humans who spend time amongst them.

And a lot of our science scientific
research that we are doing here

is focused on that human element.

I think that's so important.

Rupert Isaacson: Alright, so
you, Robin, let's go back to you.

You, you, you said that you'd cracked
the tropical rainforest code, which

was that the trees are self-sustaining
units that when they drop their

humus, the humus gets reabsorbed.

There's a re-uptake immediately.

So isn't humus layer, but this presumably
is not the case in a temperate rainforest.

What's the difference?

Why do you have that in a tropical one?

Why do you not have that one in?

I'm sitting in Germany right now
and I'm looking at it very large.

Beach forests.

Okay, so probably beach forests.

Yeah.

That I live in.

There's definitely a
big humus layer there.

So what, what created this rainforest
thing that's tropical that does not

have that humus layer, which, 'cause we
know that humus also sequesters carbon.

No.

And then why does a temperate
rainforest sequester so much carbon?

Why is it not the same thing just colder?

Robin Hanbury-Tenison: Well,
you're not alone in, in, in

not understanding how it works.

And I had a wonderful occasion when I had
take Margaret Thatcher then prime Minister

around a, a, a picture of artistic
exhibition of paintings in the rainforest.

And we were looking at these wonderful
paintings of rich, lush rainforest

for all intensity of life within it.

And she said to me, such a shame.

We have to cut that, all that down.

But then we said, we need
the agricultural land.

I had wonderful opportunity of being
able to say, rubbish prime minister, and

actually knowing what I was talking about.

And she looked a bit shocked and nearly
handbagged me and said, what do you mean?

And I had to explain to her
that tropical rainforests exist.

We now understand through recycling
all the nutrients, instantly,

they never go into the soil.

Whereas temperate forests and agriculture
generally in northern Europe and where

we have humus growing up, as you've just
said, and there is a depth of humus up

to 4, 5, 6 feet in bends, but usually two
or three feet in normal areas, you have

this humus and this soil from which is
sustainable and on which the trees grow.

And so when you cut them down, you just
park more and grow, they grow again.

It's a completely different cycle,
temperate from tropical rainforest.

And that was what people
really didn't understand.

And one of the reasons why there was such
immense destruction of tropical rainforest

in the search fatigue and timbers.

Even though in the, in the old days, the
bad old days or good days, you see it, the

colonialism, the, the people responsible
used to recognize it in a sort of way.

And instead of, and you had a
conservator of forests whose job

was to hand out timber concessions
for only 1% of the area of time.

And then to allow it to naturally
regrow, which we only had a 1% happen.

It was sustainable.

Nowadays it's greed and density of
modern commerce in the far east and,

and South America and Africa, indeed.

The tropical rainforest is being
destroyed all the time, and we are being

left with a, a dessert an eroded desert
behind which is totally economically

and socially and biologically stupid.

Yeah.

But

there is there, there is a, a, a
nice crossover and similarity between

the tragedy of what's happened in
Tropical Rainforest and the tragedy

of what's happened in temperate
rainforest, which is the introduction

of non-native grazing mammals.

And so many of, much of the Amazon
rainforest has been cut down in

order to create space for cattle
pasture and cattle grazing.

And, and the cow is a completely
non-native creature to South America.

So these have been imported.

They don't fit within the trophic system.

They don't have natural predators,
natural competitors and, and the

things that they forage on don't
have a way of responding to them.

They do very unnatural things to
the ground, which has been one of

the things that's really destroyed
these tropical rainforest landscapes.

In the same way in Western Europe and
in the UK in particular, much of our

temperate rainforest was cut down.

Longer ago, so two,
three, 4,000 years ago.

Whereas in Brazil, it's been in the last
few centuries in order to make space for

sheep, sheep grazing, which is really
all that tends to happen on the uplands

once the temperate rainforests have gone.

And the sheep in exactly the same way that
the cow is non-native to South America.

Sheep are entirely
non-native to Western Europe.

They're a Mesopotamia and a a Persian
import that was brought along Silk Road

roots four and a half thousand years ago.

And they are a very well evolved
desert animal, which as a result

of being a desert animal, have very
small hooves, which compact the soil.

When they step upon it,
they're voracious appetites.

'cause when you live in a desert,
you eat everything you can find

and their manure isn't beneficial
to temperate rainforest soil.

So we've done a very similar
thing by taking the trees away and

putting cattle in South America.

There's been the same effect
in Western Europe by taking the

trees away and placing sheep in

Rupert Isaacson: Western Europe.

That's interesting.

I'm just, as you were saying,
they're not native to Western Europe.

I'm just sort of going through, 'cause
in, in this area of Germany I live in,

we have some muon, which is English.

English.

It's, you know, European wild sheep.

Up in the low mountain
range that we live in here.

But yes they're sort of widely
acknowledged to be a Mediterranean.

Yeah.

Wild species that was sort of
naturalized here, perhaps by

the Romans or earlier, you know.

But, and I'm just trying to think
of the cave walls of Lascoe and

those other Western European
paleolithic rock art repositories.

And I'm just sort of going through in
my mind, have I seen sheep on those?

We see horses, we see cows, we see bison,
we see bears, we see wolves, we see lions.

Do we?

A few, a few,

few, few Woolie rhinos and
straight tus elephants as well.

Right?

Right.

But, but no sheep.

But we don't, and, and it comes
back and I'd never, I've never

Rupert Isaacson: stopped
to think of that before.

And on our charity here, the thousand
Year Trust, one of the reasons that

we came up with that name was because
when I started talking about this

subject, people would go, well, hang on.

Sheep have been here for four
and a half thousand years.

Surely that's long enough for them
to be considered native or, or, or,

you know, part of the evolutionary
system within this island.

But that is not the way
evolution or Mother Nature works.

They, the human timelines that we feel
comfortable working within five, 10,

a hundred years are completely out of.

Perspective with actually how
natural systems function and work.

And so we have to have the, the, the
appetite, the boldness, the objectivity

to be able to look in island landscapes.

And I've always entertained by the
difference between places like New

Zealand and Australia and Te del
Wago, other island habitats, where

the people who live there are very
comfortable saying, this species evolved.

Here it is native, this species
was introduced by humans, it is

non-native and therefore it should
be either removed or suppressed.

In New Zealand, they were, they have
competitions amongst schoolchildren to

bring in as many rats that they've killed,
and they get a competition for the one

that's brought in the most in the uk.

If we did that with gray squirrels at
schools you know, the, the tabloids

would hit the roof and, and everyone
would be being fired from their jobs.

We, we, I think we have a real timidity
in the UK about looking at the flora

and fauna that we have across our
islands and saying actually that

that is non-native and therefore it
might be being destructive and sheep.

A brilliant example of that,
just like gray squirrels are and

things like rhododendron and,
and in many places, beach trees.

Rupert Isaacson: Now of course,
we've, we've built the beginnings

of the British Empire on wool.

Mm.

You know, the, the medieval period, as
you know, we, we grew wool here in the uk.

Say, here I'm sitting in
Germany, but, you know, sold it

to Flanders, the low countries.

It was then processed and went
out, and that was the basis of the

prosperity upon which we built the
next thing, which was to cut all the

ship forests down to make ships, oh,
go and be pirates around the world.

And then they called
that the British Empire.

Now that's gone, but we now have
a bank instead, as we know which

causes people great stress.

And they go and then get their mental
health back in your rainforest in, in

Cornwall, in the southwest of England.

But you guys have a large farm.

You're sitting up there on
Bob Min Moore and Boman Moore.

For those who the listeners, what
you need to understand is Cornwall,

actually, this is what you need
to understand about Cornwall.

If you dunno the UK.

People and Cornwall talk
like, ah, a little bit.

And Pirates talk like that too.

Why?

Because they come from Cornwall.

So Cornwall is the bit of
southwest England that sticks

out furthest into the Atlantic.

So if you were going to be on a ship and
get down and steal gold from the Spanish

ships coming back from the Caribbean
back in the 16th century, probably

you came from that southwest corner of
the UK around Portsmouth and then west

into Cornwall and it's smugglers and
it's 'cause it's a rocky coastline.

You can hide things in caves and
that's why we have the pirate accent.

So if you didn't know that, okay,
and you'll hear it alive and well in

any pub in Cornwall, but Boman Moore,
where Robin and Merlin are sitting is

a mountain spine, like a low mountain
spine that runs along the center of

that peninsula and then it goes down
basically to the coast on either side.

You guys are sitting up there.

Are you honest?

Are you saying that you are going
to take your farm like the whole

thing just co you know, it's a
couple of thousand acres or so.

Are you going to, are you gonna
re rainforest that whole thing?

Like, you've already done it.

Is that what you're gonna do?

Are you doing So it's, it's a lot.

It's not that big.

It's a smaller farm.

It's it, it's, it's become
smaller over the years.

Yeah.

And, and now it's about 250 acres.

And, but I find that very,

Rupert Isaacson: very exciting.

So you, you, you, the whole lot

sheep

Rupert Isaacson: gone.

Back to the break for us.

She gone and we've, we've reestablished
a hundred thousand trees across the farm.

So few listeners, an acre is about the
size of a football or a soccer pitch, so

that's 250 football pitches all stitched
together and laid over this valley.

And the average size of a farm
in the UK is about 220 acres.

Yeah.

So we are 250 acres, but a hundred acres
of that, or about 85 acres of that is

already atlantic temperate rainforest.

So actually our farmable
land is only 160 acres.

And the important thing about that
is that there are many charismatic

and really exciting and innovative
nature restoration Rewilding projects

in the uk, but they tend to be very,
very large areas of land, three, four,

5,000, 20,000 acres up in the Highlands.

And they're often owned by people who
are doing something quite philanthropic.

They have the resources and
the funds to, to do something

quite high risk and innovative.

That doesn't necessarily make money
because we have a, an average sized farm

in a very challenging farming environment.

What we do has to work.

EE ecologically and economically
for the farmers that do it.

So what we are creating is a blueprint
for a future of upland farming, which

transitions sheep popped green tarmac,
which has very little biodiversity and

very little health and, and life and
vitality, and also is very, very bad

for flooding and droughts downstream
because it doesn't hold water in the

uplands very bad for soil climate,
bad climate change, big rain event.

Yeah,

absolutely.

Very bad for water quality.

And we've plant, we've
reestablished, we've planted 40,000

trees, we've got 60,000 coming
back by natural colonization.

So it's a hundred thousand tree site.

We've turned that 165 acres back into a
cadet rainforest that is establishing.

And the way, the reason we're doing that
is to be able to show our neighbors and

other farmers around us that this is
actually a better way to manage their

land, both ecologically and economically.

And, and that can turn much
larger rows of land back into

temperate rainforest landscapes.

Rupert Isaacson: But
what is the economics?

How would someone make money?

So for example, again, for the listeners
who might not know farming in the uk

like farming in Europe and farming in
many parts of the world is subsidized.

So if you come from an upland area,
which is traditionally sheep farming,

as you say, you would get a certain
subsidy from the government to,

you know, keep running your sheep.

And then in addition to that, you would
obviously be selling some for meat and

some for wool, and blah, blah, blah.

And that's your livelihood.

How, how do you make money by
turning it back to rainforest?

Because if it's not making
money, people won't do it.

That's a great question.

And as my father well knows, having
farmed up here for 50 years and tried

lots and lots of very innovative
different types of farming, farming

in the uplands is not a, a profitable
endeavor on, on an average sized farm.

And when, when I moved down, when my
wife and I moved down about 10 years

ago, we looked at this very, very closely
and ran all the numbers and tried to

understand how we could make a living
and raise a family and do something

that was ecologically beneficial on this
small patch of, of Moreland or Upland.

And we found, I found that the
average Upland Hill farmer on Bob and

Moore and Dartmore currently takes
between 85 and 92% of their annual

income from European subsidies.

This was when I was looking at this 10
years ago before we left, before Brexit.

Yeah.

Before Brexit, now that we've left
the European Union, all of those

subsidies have been taken away.

They've solely, incrementally gone down
until in 2027 they stopped completely.

And the British system that's replacing
them is, is, is a fraction of the

generosity of what we, of what we were
given before by the European Union.

The average age of a farm around
here is in their mid sixties.

It has the second highest suicide
rate of any job type in the uk.

The younger generation are
not taking these farms on.

It is almost impossible to make a living.

So before I answer the question about
how you make a living from upland

farming by reforesting, it's important
to establish that as a baseline.

People are not making a living from
this kind of farming at the moment.

So it's not outside.

Outside of the subsidies, right?

Yeah, outside of the subsidies.

So it's not like we're taking, you
know, wildly profitable upland hill

farms and wrecking them into rainforest.

Actually, what we're doing is transferring
them into an agroforestry model.

So we're still farming this land.

There'll be a native breed conservation
grazing scheme of cattle and horses

and pigs that move through the
rainforest because trees need large

animals, and large animals need trees.

And this is a very weird thing that
we've done with farming in the UK

where we consider healthy farmland
to be fields with no trees and large

animals and healthy woodland to be lots
of trees with no large animals, when

actually they all evolved together.

Trees benefit from having animals
rubbing against them and foraging

amongst, encompassing them.

And the animals benefit from the shade
in the summer, the shelter in the winter,

and the additional forage that they get.

So we still have animals passing
through it, or we will have there's

also now a very important financial
model for farmers around, around

carbon sequestration and the carbon
markets around biodiversity net gain.

And also with the work we do at Cabilla
Cornel, where we've brought over 3000

people into the rainforest at Cabilla.

There are ecotourism opportunities, which
I think is really the next moment for

the farmed landscape because there's such
an inequality of access to wild spaces

for many people who live in the uk.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, let's talk about
that because you guys both know, I mean,

you're landowners and not everybody is,
and I did 20 years, I had a ranch in Texas

for 20 years, and one of the big issues
there is there's no land access, right?

You, you either own it
or you can't go on it.

I mean, you might have the odd
neighbor who lets you take a walk

or ride your horse or something,
and if you go on it, you get shot.

You definitely get shot.

Yeah.

And in fact, if they paint the top of
the fence post purple, it means they'll

shoot on site and not challenge you.

So there's a lot of that, you know,
and the sound of automatic fire at

the weekends and that sort of thing.

The UK actually does have, by
comparison, really good access.

I know there's a, a debate that
rages in the UK about, you know, we

don't have access to the countryside.

I actually call BS on that.

Because if, if, if you've ever lived
in a place where you don't have that

kind of access, even Ireland, you
don't really have that kind of access.

Yeah.

But in the UK there's a big network
of footpaths and most of the open

hill areas you can kind of walk.

And let's face it, if you do walk on
someone's land, you might get yelled

at, but you certainly won't get shot.

And if you're not a complete dick and like
let your dog chase the sheep or something

and leave all the gates open, probably
people are actually relatively tolerant.

If you were to, I'm going to
throw this one at you Robin.

So let's say you evangelize Cornwall
and Cornwall becomes one big temperate

rainforest up there on bottom mage.

I'd love to see because then I'm thinking
I'm fantasizing about wolves and bears and

things like that coming back, which I dig.

'cause the wolves just came back
to our area in Germany and it's

quite exciting how not all of those
farmers can make the same money

from the same ecotourism outfit.

There's only so much glamping you can do.

Right.

So unless the entire population of
London decamps, although I suppose in

some ways it does to the beaches what's
the model for ensuring that there's.

A sort of a broader economic benefit,
not dissimilar to the current subsidies,

because that, that's the obvious
question, is, okay, you guys have put

in an infrastructure, you're very well
connected, you, you know how to do these

things but your neighbor might not.

And then they might resent the fact
that the business is coming to you.

How do you Yeah.

How do you, how do you democratize
it so that it takes the, really

takes the place of the sheep?

Robin Hanbury-Tenison: Well, there
actually are subsidies still, the

subsidy system has changed from
being subsidizing land ownership or

production as it was under Brexit.

And there's a new thing called elms,
environmental Land Management, which

encourages people who look after.

So it's, it's rewarding people.

Looking after nature rather
than for exploiting it.

And are those

Rupert Isaacson: subsidies just quickly,
are they, are they comparable to what

their people would currently get?

They, they're

Robin Hanbury-Tenison: not
comparable, but they're there.

They're great.

Yeah.

And there are all sorts of
other things that people can do.

I mean, I've been banging
on about this for years.

I used to have a very feisty New
Zealand partner who was, was really into

exploiting every kind of possible D of
avenue on the farm, Bo Goats and Red Deer

and Wild Boa and all sorts of things.

And he was very into using the,
the land to its maximum good

New Zealand Kiwi philosophy.

And we used to argue a lot about it.

And I would say this was 40, 50 years
ago, I was saying to him the day

will come when you will be receiving
more benefit from environmental land

management than you will from production.

And he would say, that's rubbish love.

And we had lovely
discussions about all that.

It is happening.

And there is now so much awareness
as Melon has been saying about the

beneficial attributes of proper
landscape, of, of associating with

nature, both the mental and physical
and, and pure enjoyment reasons.

And indeed a recognition of how
over exploited we have been through

agricultural production of our
land and how depleted we are in

wildlife and plants and insects.

I mean insects for example.

I dunno if you can
remember it world or not.

Remember the days when we used
to have things called little

buggers on the front of our cars.

Yeah.

Which were a little deflective things
which removed huge numbers of insects

that otherwise built up on the windscreen.

Don't need those boy
hardly ever get insects.

Insects have been catastrophic decline.

Mm-hmm.

So

Robin Hanbury-Tenison: there are many,
many aspects why this whole new vision

of farming makes very good sense.

And, and I think you know, to to,
to add to that, one of the potential

negatives of the European subsidy
system that we've been in since the

early seventies in the UK is that it
was very focused on food production.

And, and if you ask any farmer across
most of the eu, but certainly in the

uk, what their job is, they'll say the
job of a farmer is to feed the nation.

It is to produce food.

And actually, when you start to look at
a little bit more closely at, at what

that looks like across the uk where we
have all of these different topographies

and types of soil quality and and, and
weather patterns, we produce 20% of our

food from 3% of the land in the uk and
that's all in East Anglia, Lincolnshire,

you know, Norfolk, places like that.

We then use 22% of the uk,
which is the Western reaches.

Or sheep production, which
produces less than 1% of our food.

So we're doing something very strange.

We then, a third of our food goes into
landfill and 40% of our land is exported.

So we, we we're, we're behaving quite
strangely, and I believe that the

job of a land steward, or a farmer,
or a landowner is multifaceted.

It is drought prevention, flood
prevention, clean water, clean air, clean

soil, food production, timber production,
beautiful places for people to spend time.

The problem is, at the moment,
farmers are only paid for one or two

of those really just for producing
food and maybe for producing timber.

We need to move to a system where
actually, if we accept that farming will

always, or land management will always
be subsidized, which it probably always

will because we have an expectation
across the western world for a price of

food, which doesn't match the price of
production or the cost of production.

So if we accept that farming will
always need some form of subsidies, it

needs to be blended across all of the
ecosystem benefits that land managers

and land stewards need to be providing.

And a big part of that is
open access and public access.

A, in a managed and controlled way.

We've all seen places.

I remember.

When I was kind of a younger man that
filmed the beach came out, and it was

so beautiful that everybody went to
this one beach in Thailand and took

photographs of it, and it was destroyed.

And in the same way with the Instagram
generation now, there are many beautiful

spots where when they become famous,
everybody goes there to get a selfie,

and that spot becomes destroyed.

And we need to avoid that happening
where the natural world is degraded

by completely unfettered open access.

And we've seen that with Westman's Wood
near us on Dartmore, which is a temperate

rainforest that has been very badly
damaged, but in the same way the days of

landowners rather like the Texan model
being able to totally fence off their

land with purple stripes across the
top of the post and keep out anybody.

I think those, those days are beyond
us and, and people who manage land

need to move with the times and accept
that we have an inequality of access.

From a mental health and a physical health
perspective, we're living through a mental

health pandemic and an obesity pandemic.

We need to encourage and facilitate
people from, especially from

inner city areas, having easy
access to beautiful wild spaces.

That's gonna be part of
the model of the future.

It has to be,

Rupert Isaacson: let's bring
it down to money though.

So, I, let's say you, you guys
are in a town hall meeting where

they're in Boman Town Hall and
I'm doing one tonight at Jamaican.

Exactly.

I'm meeting lots of farmers tonight
at Jamaica Inn and I'm gonna sit

there with my arms folded, right?

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

And and that expression with my mouth down
and be like, you soft London bastards,

you know, coming here and telling us
what to do, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Even though you've been there forever,
you know, nonetheless, you know, we know

how things are in the countryside often.

Alright, now you've gotta sell me.

The two things which I could see
selling me if I was a current

conservative farmer would be.

Three, well, three things really.

I think I'd want reassurance
that there's money in it.

Beyond base subsistence, meaning that,
and so then, would that be apart from

the subsidies for land stewardship,
would that also be carbon sequestration

Robin Hanbury-Tenison:
and biodiversity net gain?

Rupert Isaacson: As you know, if
you followed any of my work, I'm

an autism dad and we have a whole
career before this podcast in helping

people with neurodivergence, either
who are professionals in the field.

Are you a therapist?

Are you a caregiver?

Are you a parent?

Or are you somebody with neurodivergence?

When my son, Rowan, was
diagnosed with autism in 2004,

I really didn't know what to do.

So I reached out for mentorship, and
I found it through an amazing adult

autistic woman who's very famous, Dr.

Temple Grandin.

And she told me what to do.

And it's been working so
amazingly for the last 20 years.

That not only is my son basically
independent, but we've helped

countless, countless thousands
of others reach the same goal.

Working in schools, working at
home, working in therapy settings.

If you would like to learn this
cutting edge, neuroscience backed

approach, it's called Movement Method.

You can learn it online, you
can learn it very, very simply.

It's almost laughably simple.

The important thing is to begin.

Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr.

Grandin and see what results can follow.

Go to this website, newtrailslearning.

com Sign up as a gold member.

Take the online movement method course.

It's in 40 countries.

Let us know how it goes for you.

We really want to know.

We really want to help people like
me, people like you, out there

live their best life, to live
free, ride free, see what happens.

Who would pay me for that?

So those, now, those are now on
very well audited and accredited

marketplaces that they're creating.

So the main one in the UK for
carbon is the woodland carbon

code, which is held by the forestry
Commission, the government body.

And so you, you plant trees and
you grow trees and you get an

independent assessment of the amount
of carbon that's being sequestered.

And then those credits can
be sold on a marketplace.

So it can be bought by anybody.

Rupert Isaacson: Could I, could I
make a fairly decent living like that?

Similar to having say
windmills on my land.

Well, you, I mean, bay going back to
that point that you can't make a decent

living at the moment from sheep, right?

Anyway, you can make a better
living from selling carbon.

And in the same way that you don't
choose who you sell your sheep to, you

sell it to a supermarket who sell it
to members of the public or consumers.

You sell your carbon, I
who set price as well.

Yeah.

On a, who sell the price.

And you sell your carbon on a
market, which sets the price,

and it is purchased by consumers.

Some of those will be businesses, some
might be members of the general public.

So it's sort of a, it's a similar
model and it's a bit nebulous.

And that's why where the challenge comes.

'cause many people will look at
that and go, well, when you're

producing wool or lamb or milk,
you can see what's being produced.

You can kind of, you can
really, you understand.

A farmer grows lamb.

They sell the lamb, someone
to lamb, it's a thing, goes to

a physical market, it's sold.

Whereas carbon and biodiversity are
less tangible, but equally as important.

Rupert Isaacson: Right?

So how do I, let's say
I'm a, I mean, I am.

Approaching Seniorness now.

So let's say I'm a conservatively
minded senior farmer.

I don't know how to navigate those market.

You know, you, you, you, you, you've
come up from the financial District

of London and you're talking a
language I don't understand at

all, and now I feel threatened.

How are you gonna help me get it?

I can really envisage

Oh, money in my pocket, like, so that,
that's exactly what our charity, so our

charity is a thousand year Trust that
I, that I founded a couple of years

ago, which is Britain's only rainforest
charity, the only charity dedicated to

the protection restoration expansion
of Atlantic temperate Rainforest.

We're working in a number
of different areas.

Our main focus is around scientific
research, just like my father's work

in tropical Rainforest in the past.

But also a lot of it is around community
engagement, stakeholder engagement,

and helping other farmers to join
clusters and schemes, landscape

recovery schemes, which is a big

Rupert Isaacson: push British,
but you said stakeholder there.

Right?

And I'm the, I'm the, I'm sitting
there even as myself and I just went

communities, communities bringing
together farmers and landowners

to say, how are you gonna help me?

Merlin?

I own this farm.

How are you gonna help
me get that carbon money?

You need to hold my hand.

You need to take me.

So, so just talk, walk me through
the process of how you'd do that.

I'm, I'm, I'm

intrigued.

So, so that's why we've done it
here to create a blueprint site.

So what I can do is say
that, come and see our farm.

Come and see Cabilla, come and have
a walk around and see the trees that

we've planted, see how the landscape is
changing, how as a result of introducing

things like beavers and bringing
back some of the biodiversity, we're

seeing less flooding, less drought.

We're seeing more biodiversity,
more inverses returning.

And then let's sit down and
in a really basic way, using a

one pager blueprint document.

Look at who we introduce
you to, who can help you.

Who are the tree planters?

Who are the government bodies
that will provide you with the

grant funding to plant the trees?

Who are the people who come and
assess you for their carbon credits?

And in exactly the same way that
farmers, farmers are very bright people.

They have relationships with
the buyers of supermarkets.

They can have relationships
with the buyers.

On the carbon market, it's the same thing.

Someone,

Rupert Isaacson:
someone's gotta make that.

No, I mean, no one, no one introduced me.

So I, I, yeah, I, I had to
figure it out and in the, but,

but now I'm sitting here, I'm

Rupert Isaacson: used to leading
parallel lies in parallel cultures.

Yeah, you are not, but now

I'm here to help them.

So I'm, I'm here my, the charity.

So are you basically,

Rupert Isaacson: that's what you do?

You, you help them?

Well, we're a charity, so
we're not doing it for a fee.

We are saying, how can we bring together
a community and help people to benefit

in the same way that we're trying to,
and as innovators, it's not an easy

Rupert Isaacson: for us, but
you act like a consultant.

You, you say, we will help you to.

Navigate this new rather confusing,
as you said, ne nebulous market.

But

there are other amazing, there
are amazing consultancies

out there doing exactly that.

And one of the things we would do
is say, look, speed it down here.

You can say, speak to the forest
for Cornwall, who are a Cornwall

council run group who are
helping farmers to transition to

more of an agroforestry model.

Okay.

You can say, look, talk to.

Yeah.

There are many people out there, natural
England, the Forestry Commission,

the Environment Agency, they're all
trying the wildlife, I dunno, people

trying help farmers these people.

It's

Rupert Isaacson: now, it's good that
you're telling me, 'cause now I can

begin to put together a mosaic, you see?

Yeah.

Rather than somebody saying, well,
you've got to do something different.

Yes.

And that's what farmers have had in
the past being told you are the enemy,

you are damaging the environment.

You need to do something different.

And farmers sit there in a really
challenging environment and no

one works harder than a farmer.

You know, I see our neighbors who
are still sheep, sheep farming

in a very serious way out at 3:00
AM every morning, picking up.

Dead lambs or, you know, helping
lambs give birth or a different,

or shearing throughout the night.

And it's hard work.

And then to say to them, now you
need to go and learn an entirely

different financial model to try
and keep your family on the land.

It's not fair.

And there are more and more organizations
setting up to help them, and we hope

to, we are one of those as well.

But it is a, it's gonna be a difficult
moment of transition, but you've

gotta come back to that point as well
of going of remembering that most

farmers are in their mid sixties.

They're looking to find an
opportunity or an excuse to hand

over to the younger generation.

The younger generation don't
want to go into a debt laden poor

profitability standard up hill farming.

The younger generation are going,
okay, we, we'll take the land Landover,

but what are we gonna do on it?

Mm-hmm.

And we are there to say, here's an
alternative and here's how you transition.

Got it.

Rupert Isaacson: Robin, I
want to this one to you.

So the other, the other concern
I would have as a, as a farmer

would be lifestyle and culture.

Sell me on if, if I, if I go over and give
a portion, a significant portion of the

land over to this rainforest idea how do I

preserve my, the culture that, the
way of life that is dear to me?

Because yes, I work very hard and yes,
I'm in debt for this, but I also love it.

I love the upland.

I love the sound of the sheep.

I love the lambing.

I love it.

There's an emotional attachment as well,
and we all know this, that, you know, I, I

partly come from a farming family as well.

It's not entirely a business thing.

It's, it's, it's, it's a,
it's a love thing as well.

It's an emotional thing.

And the attachment to the land and the
attachment to the land looking a certain

way because the, there's no question
that, that the English countryside,

even if it's lacking biodiversity, is
very, very aesthetically beautiful.

There's no question about that.

It's, it's an art.

Piece, really.

And I always feel that we,
we mess with it at our peril.

I get very depressed when I see the,
the solar panels covering fields or the

lines and lines of windmills because
it's industrializing the landscape.

Even if it's in a good cause,
it, it, my heart goes down.

It doesn't go up.

It's just the cold, hard fact.

So

sell it to us now, Robin.

How, how are you gonna preserve the
aesthetic, the lifestyle, the, the culture

Robin Hanbury-Tenison: with the forest

on, on the case of wind turbines,
they're a very emotive subject.

I got into a lot of trouble with them
because I was president of the our local

conservation organization, which started
by, I started it 60 years ago, doing all

sorts of opposing bad planning and so on.

Then they became obsessed because
a lot of 'em were run by people who

come down from London living corn.

And, and the obsession about wind
turbines became to, and all, all

the complaints they were making
were all against wind turbines.

And I made the mistake of writing a
paper telegraph saying that not all wind

turbines, I've got one here, we have one.

Can't really see it the middle very much.

And it's not a huge one, but it helps
generate the deal of electricity.

And I dare to say that not
all wooden turbines were bad.

And then I made a mistake of
carrying on with the letter.

And so after all in the Middle Ages,
every village in Britain had a windmill.

Objected to.

And I got sacked.

He rated,

Rupert Isaacson: I'm sure, yes.

That you could, could choose the,
the stake on which they impaled you.

Yeah,

Robin Hanbury-Tenison: yeah.

Well, they're now all, all, all
being very nice to them and say

We were wrong actually, because
recognizing turbine have a part.

But, and of course, plannings come into it
and they must be environmental friendly.

We also have an array of tape panels,
which I put up about 20 years ago.

And they're invisible everywhere
because I've strategically located

behind the, and see them many and they
help to, to make us almost off grid.

But I do think that there is a dichotomy
always, as there always is with planning

over where and when things should be.

And, and it upsets me to see whether
a cultural lab, other panels there's

absolutely no reason why land, but
underneath them can't be used effectively.

And I think this is a mistake making.

Cheap or geese, or wild flowers, or even
as the Japanese are doing very effectively

now growing vegetable crops underneath
panels, apparently we get because of

the reflected sunlight to actually get,
generate a better fertility for garden.

So there are lots of things
that could be happening.

It's, it's one of those
balances that has to be made.

But even at the same time, you have
access to good countryside around that.

Not necess, not necessarily that
that woodland people can walk in.

That's a better balance.

It's, it's all going to change.

Countrysides gonna look different.

I suspect that offshore wind
turbines people don't object as much

because they can't see them so much.

Yeah.

And there are other ways of I mean
every, it just astonished me for quite a

long time that, that it is not law that
every new building in the country has

to have its roots made of solar panels.

Yes.

Or the, the roads we drive on or not,
they look just like slate and tile.

Yeah.

They didn't have to look like panels.

And I, I, I simply don't understand
why that has not been made law,

because if every rooftop was generating
power, wouldn't need panels all over.

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

And, and we hope that,
that, that day will come.

My neighbor actually just
got his roof redone that way.

If you made it this far into the podcast,
then I'm guessing you're somebody

that, like me, loves to read books
about not just how people have achieved

self actualization, but particularly
about the relationship with nature.

Spirituality, life, the
universe, and everything.

And I'd like to draw your
attention to my books.

If you would like to read the story
of how we even arrived here, perhaps

you'd like to check out the two New
York Times bestsellers, The Horseboy

and The Long Ride Home, and come on an
adventure with us and see what engendered,

what started Live Free Ride Free.

And before we go back to the
podcast, also check out The Healing

Land, which tells the story of.

My years spent in the Kalahari with the
Sun, Bushmen, hunter gatherer people

there, and all that they taught me, and
mentored me in, and all that I learned.

Come on that adventure with me.

But back to I'm a farmer and I want
to be sure somehow that Cornwall,

the Cornwall I know and love won't
disappear and my lifestyle is it.

So is it just as, as, is it
something as similar as as simple

as saying, well, look, yeah.

Have some sheep just not that many.

You know, what, what is it?

Because I'm very I'm a sheep farmer.

I'm also attached to sheep.

I love sheep.

I, you know, I, I race
horses, for example.

You know, I'm attached to them.

I love them.

I'm, it's, it's my thing, right?

So if you, I, I wouldn't
want to give them up, but I

might to doing it differently, you know?

As we know, you know, sheep are completely
ubiquitous across the west of the uk.

You see a postcard of Wales or of
Devon or of the peak district or

of Cornwall, and it doesn't have
sheep in it and something's wrong.

And, and, and I've been very keen always
never to look backwards and never to say,

oh, well we should be more like it was
4,000 years ago or even 300 years ago.

We're not aiming for some golden age
of, of a bucolic past that didn't

exist a sort of prolapse area in time.

It's about looking forward and
actually saying how can we have, and

farmers have always been dynamic.

Any farmer who wants to freeze
time and and keep doing what's

always been done has, has always
been bark out the wrong tree.

That's not the way farmers
be ha have ever behaved.

They've always wanted to evolve and be
dynamic and agile and move with the times.

Yeah.

And they have to go with the markets.

And I, I, I don't think the job of
any of us is to try and solve all of

the problems everywhere, all at once.

The market is doing that for
us and, and we'll continue to.

Lamb is being less eaten.

Natural wool are being less worn.

And when people want to farm sheep in
a, in a lower yield number as they used

to be, where they would be herded from
pasture to pasture and they would be

moved constantly so that biodiversity
could bounce back in a rotational system

I think that will of course continue.

Probably forever as far as the
human perspective is concerned.

But the intensive type of farming that
we do at the moment where large numbers

of any kind of livestock are pressed
into small areas of space and given

a lot of artificial feed and then end
up actually often being kept inside.

There was a fire a couple years
ago in Texas where 18,000 cows

died in one fire on a farm.

'cause it's not a farm.

It's effectively a giant multi-story
car park filled with cows that

are plugged in for the whole
of their lives into machines.

And then when a fire broke out, there was
no way to unplug these bovine cyborgs.

And they, and they all perished.

And the same thing happens in pig farms
and increasingly in sheep farming as well.

And I just believe that the markets
are going to, not just the markets,

but societal opinion and government
policy are going to start shifting

people to different models of farming.

And as they do that, there is an
opportunity for the resurgence

of our rainforest landscapes.

Rupert Isaacson: Sure.

So, okay, so now I think you actually
answered my question there very well,

which is, some sheep, but not that many.

Which is, so therefore there's more
opportunity to use the, and as we know,

you know, one of the reasons they put
sheep on those marginal areas in the first

place is you can't really use it for Yeah.

Else unless it's trees.

So let's say now that we, we fast forward
30 years and the rainforest, your,

your rainforest trust is the thousand
year trust has kind of done its job

in at least stage one and stage two.

And we are seeing a Cornwall that is
effectively a, a secondary rainforest.

And we mentioned ecotourism.

So every single 250 acre farm is, is each
one going to sort of have its own glamping

site and or are you going to have.

Is it going to go a little bit like those
private game reserves in Africa, where

they operate almost as collectives and
you could safari through, let's say,

you know, I, I stay at Cabilla because
you guys have bison, you know, and

then I walk or I drive over to the next
rainforest farm through a rainforest

path because they are bringing back all
rocks and yeah, wolf, you know, and then

I get to see those and then I go over
to the next one and they have links, you

know, and so therefore I'm on this sort
of safari that you guys ought to some

degree pull the money from, but that
you each have a little small lodge, you

know, on your land, which could operate
at like a camping level or at a luxury

level depending on the, so I'm familiar
with that 'cause my family did safari.

We actually ran a a quite remote lodge
in Zimbabwe for many, many years.

And we did it on these multi budgett.

Thing.

So you'd ne we'd never get turned away.

If you just showed up with a tent,
you could totally camp there really

cheaply, just come up and eat in
the restaurant or eat, you know,

cook your own food, whatever.

If you wanted to come and
spend a lot of money, great, we

could accommodate that as well.

And all of that money just was plowed
back into the elephant conservation

that, that we were doing at the time
and, and keeping the lads employed.

Are you looking at something like that?

Some sort of ecosystem, some sort of
ecotourism, patchwork, which then the, so

the farms are making money from timber.

They're making money from
carbon sequestration.

They're making money in this sort of
patchwork way that people can move

through larger areas in eco safari thing.

And there's reintroduction of sort
of megafauna, you know, what you,

is it looking like that?

What you've described is, is a, is a
very beautiful model for the future.

And, and, and in all honesty, that's not
that, that model that far out is not our

mission right now because that's I think
that's a, that's a, a a wonderful example

of how it might work one day scare.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

But, but Cornwall and, and a lot
of sort of southwest Wales and the,

the temperate rainforest zone, a
lot of the economy in these areas

is already hospitality focused.

Yeah, that's true.

And tourism focused.

Cornwall has a big problem where
you basically can draw around the

coast of Cornwall with a Sharpie.

And that is the economy at the moment
because everybody goes to the beaches

of Cornwall because that's where they
think of as being the places you go.

We're passionate about drawing people
a little bit more inland to see some

of the beautiful inland Cornwall.

And, and I, and I also think that
there's a really beautiful opportunity

for us to use some of the models
that we see in the global south.

And, and bring them to the global north.

Yeah.

We've had this, this knowledge
transfer and, and the same in the

scientific community for the last few
hundred years where Western developed

in inverted commerce countries are
telling underdeveloped countries

not to cut down their trees, not
to kill all their megaphone, and

not to kill our apex predators long
after we've already all done it.

And I think there's a time for humility
around both nature conservation,

about where we sit back and go,
actually, how is it done in Zimbabwe?

Where, when it is being done really
well, how is it done in Sumatra?

How is it being done in Patagonia?

And learning and listening.

But I think alongside that,
things like ecotourism, we

could learn from that as well.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

So, so Robin and I, I want get, I also
don't want to get off this podcast

without talking about the crazy thing
that you guys are going to do in, but

yeah, we haven't, we haven't thought
about any that We'll get there.

We'll get there.

But Robin Survival International, I.

Was founded really so that we wouldn't
lose indigenous wisdom effectively.

Right.

And you know, I learned, I learned so
much from my, what did I learn from my

time with the Satan, with the Bushman?

It wasn't just about land management.

I learned lots about land management.

I learned lots about
relationship with species.

I also learned about relationship
with the supernatural.

I, I learned about healing technologies.

I learned about spiritual technology.

I, I learned about human happiness.

What I really learned about was parenting.

I observed that these people because
they got so much unconditional love,

like so much in the hunter gatherer
context, because they're not being raised

to be warriors that, so there wasn't
this idea that we gotta toughen you up.

It was the opposite.

It was, let me just try
to fulfill all your needs.

And then you'd see these people at about
16, they'd just kind of take a spear,

go into the bush, come back with the
wildebeest, and then two years later

they'd go off down to Johannesburg,
like go into the city and learn to

speak Zulu, English and Aans in like a
year, just peer over somebody's shoulder

while they're messing with a vehicle.

And within six months they know
how to be a diesel mechanic.

And then come back to the bush
and be to, and I, I realize, oh my

gosh, oh my gosh, that the mental
health of these people is so good.

This is how we're supposed to be.

And it starts with these things like
co-sleeping and wearing your kid

on your body, because you wouldn't
dream of putting your kid on the

other side of the hut because ness
will come into your hut and take

your kid, and you won't even here.

So you, and it goes Sub-Zero at night.

There's no way you, you're
gonna do that, you know?

Just be stupid.

So the, the practicality led to this.

Functionality was also a very
compassionate community because

everything's about problem solving
because you're not the top predator.

So rather than creating conflict,
you had to always resolve conflict.

And for that you had a shaman or
a healer standing at the center of

the community so that when the funky
monkey shit happens in our funky monkey

brains there's some way of sort of
washing the psychic dirty laundry.

And I realized, oh my gosh, oh my gosh.

You know, we, we moved so far from this
and this is why we're all so messed up.

Now, we go to the rainforest, our
temperate rainforest, the Celtic,

you know, Sylvan Lu flutes and chased
me around the red maple, you know,

chaps with pointy ears and so on.

But it still comes outta
the warrior culture.

All of the Celtic myths are about people
being committing acts of atrocity to

each other and basically ripping each
other's guts out and do being horrible.

You know,

do we have a chance?

When it comes to the rewilding of
the land in this way, Robin, you've

been, you've been an advocate
of you're one of my heroes.

You know, because we couldn't have done
what we did in the Kalahari without you.

There's no way you
provided that structure.

You now in an interesting position where
we could rewild our western warrior

culture that juts out into, you know,
the, the British Empire and the piracy

and all of that and the colonization,
and which came on the back of just

the Iron Age warrior culture that came
on the back of the Bronze Age warrior

culture that came on the back of the
agricultural revolution that caused

all the shit in the first place.

And you guys are really at this
cusp of reconnecting with our source

ecologically, but also culturally.

Dream a little.

What, what do you see as the, you know,
I, I do, we have a chance to become

pre Celtic Bushman, like cheddar man.

Being nice to each other rather
than shitty to each other.

And but still keeping our technological
goodies somehow while rewilding back

to what produced us in the first
place before it all went wrong.

Like, what are your thoughts on that?

Robin Hanbury-Tenison: I've always been
a great believer in using the best of

technology as well as the best of natural
living to combine together and get the

best of both worlds as an objective.

And wouldn't it be wonderful if, if
we were able to reforest a proportion

of Britain, yet Nolan knows all the
figure, but I mean, Britain is the

least forested country in Europe.

What is it?

13% and Oh yeah.

13, 14% in the UK can benefit
33% in in Europe, 8.5%

in Cornwall.

Robin Hanbury-Tenison: So if we just
brought ourselves up to the European

average of, of doubling or troubling
as far as the land of Britain, it

would begin to change a lot of the
stuff you're talking about with because

there would be access to that lamb,
which would give people the freedom to

start enjoying the sort of lifestyles
that we all know are healthier.

I mean, both you and I have done
a lot of long distance riding.

Will and I have written eight long
distance rides, a thousand miles or so

around different countries in the world.

And I always say it is the ultimate
way to experience the world because

you are riding on an intelligent animal
and riding from wonderful countryside.

And Britain is very depleted on ride
paths for various historical regions.

And wouldn't it be wonderful if, if,
if one of the ways in which people

began to access the countryside
was on a horse and being able to

have the economy as you touched on,
of the local farms turning from.

Being purely short,
being hospitable as well.

So to do the ride anywhere, in any
direction and end up finding someone

where we could put horse up and stay for
the night and move on through the woods.

And it, it is a glorious way.

We did it in we, we inaugurated pen
I right away, which is right above

it runs now, runs all the way up
the pens in the middle of Brooklyn.

Very poor farming lab for farmers.

Very, very little
opportunity diversification.

And one of the things way back, this was
20, 25 years ago I was banging on about

then was that there's a huge opportunity
for every farm in those remote penan

not so different upland to be able
to be ready to facilitate visitors.

And if they, if it became a standard
thing, it would be, they'd be putting

up different people every night
and charge them a certain amount.

Bombing people effectively.

Yeah.

And local on the Camino
route in northern Spain.

Absolutely.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: No,
I'm, I'm, I'm with you.

You've actually just
described Hessen where I live.

I can ride, I can get on my horse
and if I see it, I can ride it.

It's, it's, I've never
experienced this anywhere else.

There's this crazy tolerance here.

It's also not a fence landscape.

It's not really a livestock
area, so it's either orchards

cropland or hay meadow or forest.

Right.

Go ahead.

Yeah, Melin.

I just, I just, because everything that
you just said about your experiences

with the San and I, I say that I have a
2-year-old and a 4-year-old at the moment.

So Lizzie and I are going through
that process of, of raising small

children and, and, and trying to
figure out the best way to do it.

And we're actually reading an amazing
book, which I'm sure you may well

be aware of, called hunt Gather, I
think it's called Hunt Gather Parent.

Fantastic.

Which basically looks at people like San
and, and other indigenous communities and

how they raise their children and tries to
layer that onto a sort of a Western model

because we're, we're trying our hardest
to do that because raising children in

a, in the western structure that we've
created where both parents work and you

have all of these pressures and stresses
and expectations to put them in their

own room as quickly as possible and make
them strong and tough and ready for the

world is is really, really challenging.

So everything ize the

Rupert Isaacson: shit out them
early and then Yeah, exactly.

And then later on, everything you
say, I, I completely sit at your

feet and and, and completely.

Wanna time to talk to you about, because
I agree with you and know knowledge on

this subject and something that, that I'm
talking about a lot moment around again.

I have no doubt that the world
that you describe will be the

world that we live in in 3025.

Because I'm an optimist and I'm positive,
and, and, and I believe that we have the

ability as humans to do great things and
wonderful things, and we make bad short

term decisions, but over the long term
we do incredible things as a species.

In a thousand years, in the year
3025, I believe in the UK that

there will be a lot more rainforest.

There will probably be things like
Lynx and wolf and and, and beaver.

And many of the species that we've
lost will have come back, eagle, owls

and ospreys, and it'll be amazing.

There will probably be fewer
people and those people will

live in much greater harmony.

Like yeah.

As you say, cheddar mount, I
never wanna look backwards.

It's always about looking
forwards and using technology.

And we've used drones here
to plant many of our trees.

Mm.

We use no fence technology on, on
some of the capital, which allows

us to have free ranging mob grazing,
tightly knit herds without the need

for lots of fencing and barbed wire
and horrible things that prevent the

normal migration of many native species.

And, and so I think we can use and
leverage technology to create a

really bucolic future where we live in
harmony with nature in a non-war and

non-confrontational, more of a hunter
gather type way, but using technology and

still having all the benefits of modern
medicine and dentistry and the things

we don't want to lose my big buck up.

Yeah.

On that.

Well, my, my, my big, my, the whole
point that thing, I think the only.

Question we have as humans.

So we are currently in 2025 where a
lot of things seem to be going wrong.

By 30 25, I believe a lot of
things will have gone right.

We have two questions about or
two options, how we get there.

One looks a lot like a Mad Max
movie where we continue down our

path of ecological destruction.

It ends up with war, plague, famine,
the four horsemen of the apocalypse,

as my father has written about.

Lots of leather, lots of cannibalism.

It sounds pretty horrible.

That goes on for a few centuries, and
then we end up eventually reestablishing

our connection to Mother Nature and to
the world as it needs to be connected

and learning from that indigenous
wisdom that is the route that we are

currently on, and that is a horrible
route that no one should want to be on.

The other option, which is harder,
more difficult and and involves more

change from all of us at a personal
level right now, is that we march in

step with Mother Nature and with, with
the, the rainforest and all the other

pinnacle habitats around the planet.

And we get to that point in 2050
generations time, in a thousand years

time, where we're still at the same end
state that we go down that warfare path,

but we've done it without all the trauma,
the death, the killing, and all of the,

the things that are looking like they
might be quite inevitable at the moment.

And I say that as a soldier who spent time
in in the military and knows what it's

like when people go to war and know that
there is no upside, there is no benefit.

And everything we're trying to
do at our charity is set the

conditions for a wonderful, beautiful
future in a thousand years time.

And it will be difficult to get
there, but I do believe we can do it.

Rupert Isaacson: I think by putting
your, your sights there, honestly, I

think we're gonna get there a lot sooner.

And if, if we look at the world when
I was a boy, there was a lot of war.

Like, you know, I grew up mostly in the
uk but our, our family was African, so

we were backing and forth and so on.

There was war in just about every
country down there when I was a boy

and South Africa we had apartheid.

It's gone and all those countries,
there's a few pockets of stuff, but

really the only big we have still
going on is the Congo in that area.

Yes, the Sahel with its problems
with the Jihads and that something,

but that was always there actually.

That was always there.

It was always a very violent zone and,
in general, it seems, you know, it's,

it, it seems flippant to say this with
Gaza and with Ukraine, but there's still

less war than there was on balance,

and it's amazing how
unimaginative we can be as humans.

Mm-hmm.

And, and I've seen this
with, with beavers.

There's a very small case study
where in 2018 when we started

our beaver reintroduction program
at Cabilla, everybody said we

were mad it wasn't gonna work.

They were maniacs with chainsaws.

It was the worst thing ever.

It was gonna destroy nature and.

Seven, eight years have passed since then.

And now every time beavers are
reintroduced anywhere across

the uk everybody sees it as
an incredibly positive story.

And it's incredible how reverse
shifting baseline syndrome can work.

That we can go from knowing
the world, someone's who

Rupert Isaacson: gives it a go, you

know, the innovators and how
the world as it is right now

is how it should always be.

And any change is scary and,
and, and probably destructive.

And then we make that change and we
suddenly look backwards and go, how could

we ever have been so, shortsighted to
not see that this would be a good thing?

And I think that will happen on a
societal level, on a planetary level,

and, and on an ecosystem level.

Rupert Isaacson: You guys are
not just talking about it.

You are putting your
money where your mouth is.

So, one things I love about
you, Robin, is you like my dad.

So my dad is 91 this year and
arguing with my mom about whether

or not she should do her own.

Who's at.

Seven, I think whether she should do
her own road trip in South Africa to

meet him in his solo trip in Zimbabwe
that he's off to do at 91 or whether

they should go there together.

And they were giving out about
this together bickering at the

table in London the other day.

I was there.

I'm like, lads, you do see
that this is a win, right?

The fact that you're sitting here
having this, having this argument is

a, is a, is is a major achievement,
you know, not everyone has that luxury.

And, and Robin, you know, you've,
you've put your body on the line.

You've done a lot of physical
stuff as well as helping

policy change and, you know.

Helping to protect environments and
peoples who live in those environments.

And you're about with
your son to do it again.

You're about to do something
a bit nuts, which I love.

So would you guys tell me the
nuts thing you are gonna do

and how can we help support it?

Robin Hanbury-Tenison: Well, I have
previous on this one when I was

about to be 80, I thought that was
old and stood up with the idea.

So I did eight silly things for Survival
International starting with running the

marathon, not actually for a long time.

And anyway, I raised up
survival during that.

I then, after I was covid, I raised
50 by climbing Mountain when I was,

and I realized that people will
help if you put the right story to.

And what Merlin is doing is so
inspiring with the temperate rainforest.

And we've mentioned the research
station, which she's building now,

which he needs a lot of money for.

And if you want to study topical
rainforest, there were research stations

all over the world in, in Borneo and in
Africa and Amazon and Panama and so on.

So anybody can study tropical rainforest.

But now the, the interest in temporary
rainforest, which we're looking

realize how important and where they're
is, is growing and isn't a single

temporary rainforest research station.

Not only is starting the on
the farm, that is what, not in

Canada, not in the Pacific Northwest.

No, no, there are.

Sorry, just a Yeah.

There, there are in, in
Tanzania sorry, not Tanzania.

In in Tasmania and in New Zealand
there are a couple, and there are

places in Canada, especially in British
Columbia with a lot of research done.

And in Japan, in the Pacific temperate
rainforest, there, there is not a single

Atlantic temperate rainforest research.

Oh.

So, yes, of course we the Atlantic and.

Anywhere from Southwestern Norway,
from from Bergen and Norway down to

Bragger in northern Portugal, which
is really that temperate rainforest

range from, from southwestern
Norway till northern Portugal.

And where we are in Bobman, sits slap
bang in the middle of that range and is

the perfect place if you were to have
a nexus, a hub, a home of temperate

rainforest scientific research.

Sorry, I didn't mean to

Robin Hanbury-Tenison: I facts.

Yeah.

I was like, really?

Rupert Isaacson: And then you're
right, but you nothing in the Atlantic.

We don't think it's there
because we cut all down.

And, and, and this is why, as I, as
I was mentioning earlier on, that

everybody, both young and old knows
about Rainforest and how important

they're, and it's because of things like
the Ulu expedition that my father ran.

It's because they've been so well
researched until we start actually

investing in that scientific focus on
our Atlantic temperate rainforest zone.

Everything from Galicia, which has lots
of rainforests, the Fragas Perdidas

the, the Breal Rainforest, the the
Irish rainforest, which is stunning

from the, the Highlands of Scotland
where they have amazing rainforest

in the Welsh Celtic rainforest.

We need to be investing in understanding
the data behind that, climate mitigation,

biodiversity, and mental health benefit,
because it's only when we can present

that to the governments of all of these
areas that they will then invest in

protecting and restoring these habitats.

It all has to start with science.

Rupert Isaacson: So you're start,
you're, you're, you're raising

money to start a research station,
the research station, but you're

gonna do something a bit stupid.

Okay.

Which I love.

So tell, tell me the the
stupid thing you're gonna do.

Robin Hanbury-Tenison: Well, the legs
aren't what they were, so I'm not gonna

do any running or climbing any mountains.

So I'm just gonna try and
make use of the bit the left.

It still work as I enter my
ninth nineties, my ninth decade.

And my arms pretty good then.

So I've been doing lots of
training on the rowing machine.

The original purpose was to row
across the English channel, which

seemed like that an easy thing to do.

Immigrants are doing it all the time
after all, but it's now become very

complicated with legislation and, and,
and because, so, it's 22 miles from,

so instead of doing that, I'm Miles,
first of all, the river, which divides.

And then the next day and England

divides and England as we like, sorry,
sorry, England, like Texas and America.

Robin Hanbury-Tenison: Get that.

Right, exactly.

And, and then the next day I'm going 11
miles up and 11 miles down, which is 22,

which is the same as the English channel.

And purpose be to show that you don't
give up on very well and if you want

to raise money for a good cause, you
used a bit sort of still working.

Rupert Isaacson: So you, you're gonna
row 26 miles on the Tamar River.

And again, for the listeners who,
who, dunno what that might mean

that's not a leisurely row because
the Tamar River comes down quite

quickly from the uplands of Dartmore.

Right.

More or less to, so I could see
coasting down it quite happily.

But the idea of rowing up,
it makes me want to hide up.

Robin Hanbury-Tenison: It's actually
titled by then and it's wind, wind.

Okay.

So

it is a hard challenge though.

It'll be yeah, yeah.

I, I'm gonna run with him and I
think it'll be hard work for, for me.

It'll be very hard work for a person who's
gonna be on their 89th birthday that day.

So what day is it happening?

Robin Hanbury-Tenison: May the seventh?

May

Rupert Isaacson: 7th.

So soon

Robin Hanbury-Tenison: May the
seventh, which is my birthday.

Maybe eighth, which is VE day.

Okay.

Rupert Isaacson: So we are
right at the end of April, 2025.

Some of you of course,
will be listening to this.

You know, you'll find this on YouTube
like five years from now and go, oh,

well, you know, I missed that one.

Well, no you didn't because what will have
happened by the time you find this is that

the handbury tenons will have, of course,
used that money that they raise, and then

the subsequent stupid shit that they do
for the next five years to keep raising

more money to build this research station.

Yeah.

How much money do you need?

What's it gonna take?

What do you think?

So we've launched a crowdfunder for, for
this particular challenge which is live at

the moment and has some beautiful videos
if anyone's interested to learn a bit

more about it and some really good kind
of architects, renderings of what the

research station will look like, which
will be right on the edge of the, the

rainforest here in the Cabilla Valley, and
Aviva or supporting that pledge as well.

So anything that's given to this
pledge will be matched by Aveva.

So we're aiming to raise 50,000
pounds in this first one.

We need about 600,000 pounds to
actually build the research station.

So this is just the beginning, but
if we can raise 50,000 pounds on

the Crowdfunder that gets matched by
Veva, which raise it to a hundred.

And then we've got some philanthropists
who've said that if that is successful,

they will then match that money again.

So actually, if people help with
that initial 50,000, it unlocks so

much more and it actually gets us to
having 200,000, which is a further

way to completing the station.

And our aim is to have it
built this year in 2025.

So we've got a lot to do,
but we're gonna get it done

Rupert Isaacson: now once
you complete the station.

It needs to be manned.

It needs to be staffed.

It needs to be, so
what's the plan for that?

What's the sustainability plan for so.

Has a fantastic team already.

We've got two amazing research directors.

We've got a, a, a gaggle of research
assistants who come in and help.

We've got formal partnerships
with six different universities.

Last year we did six PhDs and 20 MSCs.

This year we're planning to do 40 MSC
and 12 PhDs to, to double the amount

of research that's been done here.

So we already have a huge kind of
support network and infrastructure.

We just lack the actual physical
infrastructure to, to especially have

people in a residential capacity,
which is the really important thing.

'cause right now when students come
here, they really need to be either

coming from nearby or have their
own arrangements for where to stay.

This will facilitate in exactly the same
way that if you went to do research in

Costa Rica or sac, there are research
stations where you can join these

multi-year multidisciplinary programs,
contribute to peer review papers, and

shift government policy on these habitats.

Rupert Isaacson: What,
what's the, what's the.

Most pressing research that you
guys think needs to be done.

Okay, so the, the center's
that it's up and running.

What's like project number
one, total priority.

So we, we really break it down into
these three areas around climate,

biodiversity, and human health.

And for me, the one I'm most
excited about is human health.

So we know from a lot of studies that in
places like Japan, British Columbia, and,

and South Korea, that spending 30 minutes
in a temperate rainforest environment

and your cortisol levels, your key
stress hormone drops to a level that can

still be measured up to two weeks later.

So, and that's because of the, the
terpenes and fight inside the volatile

organic compounds that are secreted during
the photosynthetic process that we breathe

in, in these temperate rainforest habitat.

So we know they do amazing things.

They increase kidney function,
boost immune system response.

They put us from our sympathetic nervous
state, our fight or flight, and they help

transport us into our parasympathetic,
our homeostasis, rest and digest state.

So we, we know they do this and
there's huge anecdotal evidence.

I don't think anybody feels that
being in a busy urban environment

is better for their stress than
being in a a, a gorgeous, wild,

ancient rainforest environment.

But what we need now is the
data that really supports that.

So that we can get it into places like
the NHS for green prescribing, right?

And so that we can get it
onto, onto minister's agendas.

So for me, the physical and mental
health benefits of temperate rainforest

environments is, is goal number one.

Rupert Isaacson: So ideally doctors
are prescribing people testing.

Yeah.

And they already are.

There, there are seven NHS areas in the
UK where they, where doctors, if you come

in and you are demonstrating anxiety,
stress, depression the doctors, rather

than immediately putting you on clinical
medication, which is very beneficial and,

and, and should never be discounted can,
can also recommend green prescribing.

So going on a gardening course,
going and spending time in nature,

and they're finding so much more
benefit than they thought they

were from Wait, where are these

Rupert Isaacson: seven NHS
districts that are doing this?

I've, I, I looked at the, they,
they're dotted all over the uk.

There is one down in the southwest and
I think there are a couple up in the

Midlands a few in the Southeast as well.

Why did these

Rupert Isaacson: particular
areas decide to do that?

Do, do you happen to know the background?

I mean, I'm, I'm also, I might
go on Google and Google it.

There was a, i, I write about
why there and not somewhere else.

You know,

I write about it in my book RO
Bones, which has just come out.

Okay.

But there was very limited government
funding initially, and, and they

spread it across the country from
the NHS to try and get a good range.

And I don't actually believe there's
a plan to continue the funding at the

moment, which is a huge, huge shame.

Rupert Isaacson: I'm sure.

You know, it's interesting.

I dunno those, those listeners who
know what we do, we have these three

main programs for mental health and
one of them, which is called Movement

Method, which is a non equine thing.

We actually just ran our first
neuroscience conference in a out of a

medical school in the USA last year, which
we were asked was a big breakthrough.

Where with doctors now beginning
to prescribe movement in nature for

neuroplasticity as well as, as you also
say, bringing down cortisol levels, bring

up oxytocin and serotonin and all these
things, which, which we now know happen.

It's all really the same work.

And it's just so interesting that we're
now just on the cusp of a revolution

in health where we can actually get
prescribed to do the things that we all

know, you know, have always known, worked.

If you think about, you know, mental
health, asylums, you know, the whole idea,

asylum actually means sanctuary, you know,
and that the old idea was that people

could go to a beautiful natural area and
just kind of get over their psychosis

before they went back to, and then it
became, of course, something horrible

with torture chambers and all of that.

And now we think of an asylum as that.

But it's, it's interesting to me.

That you guys are there at the
forefront of this movement.

And as you say, if you have
a, if you have a, a research

station, this can change policy.

My little dream, my little optimistic
dream of, are we going back to a sort of

hunter-gatherer, bushman way of living?

While at the same time, you know, holding
onto the technologies that we've, you

know, developed at some cost to ourselves.

But, and nonetheless beneficial.

And that is of course the
perfect world, isn't it?

You know, and a re wilded landscape that
everyone can access with benefit for

all that, you know, makes us healthy
in the same way that, you know, that

that was one of the other things.

I'm sure this, you know, obviously
Robin, you would've noticed this

too, that when you are hanging
out with sun, people often.

You're dealing with people who
are 90, you know, with bodies

a bit like teenagers, you know?

Oh yes.

And they'd be like, oh, I'm not
what I was, I'm a bit, I'm a

bit, you know, I'm a bit stiff.

I'm a bit, and then, you know, they
start clapping and doing the healing

dance and they just like leap up, you
know, from a squatting position and

Busta bunch of moves and then say, oh,
well, you know, I'm not what I was,

I'm not what, you know, and then they
go sprinting across the, you know, I

Robin Hanbury-Tenison: couldn't
agree with you more the, the, the,

the, the human health idea that
tribal life was master ish and short.

It's a terrible myth.

I've seen so many really
healthy old people.

You just say a couple of years ago I
was in quite remote area of Burma up

and going back to what you was talking
about just now, and came on with a shack

and it was a small solar panel on it.

And I said, interpreter to the cap
sitting underneath what, what's that for?

What's the solar panel for?

He said To charge my mobile phone.

Of course.

And suddenly I realized at that moment,
I mean the, the, the world has, has.

Absolutely potentially transformed
through proper use of technology and

can, can revolutionize everything.

I mean, this man can be, as far as I
knew, taking a degree at Harvard by,

on the internet 'cause of one simple
piece of technology, one solar panel,

but linked him up to the whole internet.

And that's gonna be
transformational in so many ways.

Rupert Isaacson: I agree with you.

Alright, listen guys, I think what
we need to do is, I think we just

barely scratched the surface here.

Would you guys consent to come back on
because people will have questions and

I wanna find out how it went after the,
after you guys do your row up the river.

And I want to sort of follow the progress.

So just before I let you go, 'cause
I got, I know you guys are short

of time, just the plugs quickly.

How do people find the website to
support the thousand Year Trust?

How do they find Cabilla?

And tell me about your book.

Sir.

Alright.

So one, two, 3000 year trust.

First

it would be very, it'd be wrong with
me to write a book without my father

bringing one out at exactly the same time
to cast me back into the eternal shade.

So the thousand Year
Trust is, is all online.

If people look at the, the website
is www dot thousand year trust org.

And our crowdfunder, there's links to it
on the website, but that's also, if you go

on Crowdfunder and, and the usual things,
which I always feel so awful saying is

please do follow us on social media.

We're on Instagram and, and are posting
lots about the challenge on there.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, cool.

Okay.

Thousand year trust.

Look for it all over
the social media stuff.

Alright Cabilla, how do
they find what they come to?

Cabilla.

Cabilla, I would welcome anybody and
encourage anybody to please get in

touch about Camon or retreat at cabilla.

So Cabilla Cornwall, that's
www do cabilla cornwall do com.

How do you spell spell Cabilla?

Rupert Isaacson: How do you spell Cabilla?

C Like, like Camilla, but with a B.

So C-A-B-I-L-L-A.

Two Ls.

And two Ls.

And that's also all over Instagram.

So please do find our
website, find us online.

Drop us a message would be wonderful.

Super.

And the books.

And, and my, my first book R Open Bones,
which is the story of much of what

we've been talking about, but so much
more as well was Bones our, our Open.

So like Open, oh, love our Open Bones.

And it was published a
month ago by Penguin.

It's been doing really well and we've been
getting lots of great feedback, but it's

Rupert Isaacson: the story of everything
we're doing here in the valley.

Open bones and Robin, because
you can't let your son publish

a book without interfering.

Of course.

Make sure all you need
character building for him.

Robin Hanbury-Tenison: Yeah.

All you need to do is go into my
website, which is very simple.

Robins books, co uk, Robin's
books, Robins Books uk.

All 27 books are on there,
including my teenagers that

have just won an act this week.

And can all be got through that
website, including access to all

the films and podcasts and other
broadcasts and things I've done.

It's all on there.

The easiest way is just
going and buy some books now.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Robins books.com.

Now also anyone who's interested in
the work that Robin has done over the

course of his life too, you should
just check out Survival International.

It, it's not they don't present it as a
monument to Robin, but just look at the

work that's being done all over the world
with indigenous people and just get some

of that down your neck because it's.

It's, it's work that needs to be
supported and I'm, I'm so glad that

you've now brought that back to the west.

Okay, my friends, I know you need to run,
so I'm not gonna talk to you any further.

So until the next time, thank you.

Be well.

And I will hit the stop recording.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Pleasure.

Oh,

Rupert Isaacson: it's so my pleasure.

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