Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Live Free, Ride Free.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New
York Times bestselling author of

The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.

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So now let's jump in.

Today on Live Free Ride Free,
I've got Lainey Liberty.

Lainey has lived, is still living with
her son Miro an extraordinary life.

She hit the road some years ago with
him as a child, if you like, world

homeschooling and never stopped.

Has now built a whole sort of universe
of Mental health services for teens

and tweens working with the brain,
working with the endocrine system,

working with all of these things, and
has turned this grand adventure into

something really of benefit to everybody,
including a lot of teens and tweens

back in the USA, where she started from.

So joining me from Guanajuato in Mexico.

Very colorful on the other end
of my zoom is Lainey Liberty.

Lainey, thanks for coming on.

Tell us why the bleep
did you do what you did?

Lainie Libeti: Yikes.

I mean, that's such a great way
to open up this conversation.

Why did I do what I did?

I suppose, I mean, there were like all
these external reasons why we Took the

leap into this lifestyle, but there
are also these internal ones and like,

I'll, I'll sort of talk a little bit
about both of those worlds throughout

our conversation, because they're both
really, really important to this story

and the story of supporting others.

I guess from a real, you know,
sort of narrative perspective,

2008, I'm living in California.

I'm a single parent to a nine, nine year
old child at that time and always wanted

to be a mom always, you know, that was
the dream, you know, to be a parent.

And I did everything that I could.

To provide, you know, a wonderful
life for my child, I worked in

advertising for almost 18 years and
the last eight of those years I owned

my own agency and I was overworked.

I was making great money.

I was overworked.

I spent most of my time working, but
in my mind it was so I could provide.

Everything for my child for my family.

I was the provider and to me,
some things were out of whack

because my son would always say
to me, Mom, you're always working.

You never spend any time with me
and the heartbreak from those.

Words were deep and so I didn't have
this internal balance of why I was

doing what I was doing and kind of
being able to be present in my own life.

And in 2008, the economy crashed.

So that was 1 of the 1st external reason.

Well, the 1st external reason really
was the voice of my child saying.

You know, you're always working.

You never spend any time with me.

But the 2nd was having an
economy of crash in California.

And my agency was primarily focused
on serving Green Eagle companies

and nonprofits, and I started
to see them go away 1 by 1 by 1.

And I knew by the end of 2008, I was not
You know, after I, after I say goodbye

to my staff for the, the holidays,
I knew I wasn't bringing them back.

I just couldn't, I didn't have
the, the business to support them.

And one night late in the office, you
know, my nine year old child in the

office with me somewhere around 9 PM.

And I, I just remember stopping
whatever I was working on.

And I turned to him and I said, Miro, what
do you think if we just got rid of all

this stuff and went and had an adventure?

And he was playing a video game at the
time, and I remember he stopped and he

looked at me and he said, seriously?

I said, yeah.

He's like, do I have to go to school?

And I said, no.

They said, I'm in.

And that was really it.

And that became, we suddenly had a
like a vision purpose, something,

you know, a reason for all of this.

And there was, you know, I wasn't
going to mourn the loss of my business.

I was, It's just going to make
a whole new trajectory for us.

And when you're living a
conventional life, one year

adventure sounds tremendous.

It sounds like a really long time,
like, Oh my gosh, you know, planning

out a whole year seems initially

Rupert Isaacson: it was
just going to be a year.

Lainie Libeti: That's it.

And we decided to plan.

Okay, we're here on this continent.

Let's just head south.

Let's go.

You know, we're in L.

A.,

California.

Let's go to Mexico and then head down
through Central America all the way down.

And end up in Ushuaia which
is the tip of Argentina.

Let's do that.

And he's like, yeah, that
sounds like a cool adventure.

And I figured we could do that in a year.

So we had a plan.

We had a direction, but we
really wanted to be able to.

Make decisions together.

And we spoke, you know, took us
six months to prepare and plan.

And the whole thing was
about this partnership.

This wasn't going to be about me
pulling him or him pushing me one way.

We were going to do this side by side.

And that was the thing
that he was really craving.

He wanted me to spend time with him
and partnership look really different

to me when we were on the road.

Like we could create this
thing that we both wanted.

We both could research.

We could both deal with the budgets.

We both could make decisions about
where we were going and when we

were going and how long we stayed.

We both could, you know, come
up with What we wanted to do.

We didn't have those restrictions.

This was going to be our side by side
journey together and that we agreed

on way before we left and that became
one of the foundations of our journey

and much into the work that I do now.

It was this side by side
journey we call partnership.

A lot of that.

Was driven from like the work that
I did in branding and marketing.

I worked with companies where I'd go
in and help them define their brand

and do these brand discoveries and
positioning and all these things.

And I thought, well, one of the
tools that I had in my tool belt was.

Teaching, sorry, teaching companies how
and facilitating how to really define

what their core values are by looking at
things that they're, you know, what their

brand personality is, the services, the,
their relationship to their customers.

And I decided to use
that tool with my son.

So.

Okay, let's just Scott discover and
define what our core values are.

And that way we didn't have to have rules.

Core values for the thing
that we're going to guide us.

So once we define what each individual
core values where we can define what

our family core values were, and that
allowed us to be free to say yes,

when things were in alignment and no,
when they were not, it wasn't a rule.

It was a partnership where we were both.

Looking out for each other in that way.

And so a lot of that stuff, the internal
sort of processing and looking at the

external sort of situations allowed us
to have a guidance system that worked.

And it required a lot of conversation,
a lot of negotiation, a lot of emotional

intelligence, a lot of trial and error.

So that became a good part,
you know, the foundation of our

travels when we first started out.

And I do want to mention this
story of our plan sitting out for

1 year with our project, right?

Sorry, trajectory to Argentina.

Well, it's been 16 years, and we still
haven't made it to Argentina, but we

have been around the world several
times and so many adventures since.

So I don't know where you
want to take it from there.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, okay.

First obvious question.

There you are, young, single mother
young woman with a child therefore

quite vulnerable, but heading down into.

You know, parts of the
world that can be tricky.

You know, you've got a good head
on your shoulder, so you must

have been aware of the risks.

What was your plan and how did
you negotiate those waters?

That's the first thing.

And how did you actually
physically travel?

How were you doing it?

Did you, were you in a vehicle?

Were you doing it on buses and trains?

How did you go?

But then the, the other question
really is At what point did you decide,

actually no, this is not possible?

A year.

This is a life.

Lainie Libeti: Yeah.

Well, let me answer the
last question first.

Okay.

Lainie Libeti: And then I'll go
back to the mode of travel and

and my relationship to fear.

Okay.

Yeah.

So fast forward, eight and a
half months into our travels.

One of one of the agreements that
my son and I made before we set out

was let's say yes to everything.

Let's just say yes.

As long as of course the caveat,
it was in alignment with our, our

core values and it was safe, right?

Let's just say yes, because I had spent
the first nine years of my son's life

not saying yes, because I had to work.

I saw a lot of no's.

And I remember the day
we were in Guatemala.

We had rented this house and we decided
we wanted to stay there for a while.

And I remember very
clearly Miró saying to me.

Mom, you know, we're supposed
to go home in four months.

Can't we just do this forever?

He sort of tricked me.

But we had this deal and, you know, there
was really no reason to say no there.

We were really enjoying our life,
and it was eight months in, and

we were only as far as Guatemala.

We decided that slow travel was
a little better than fast travel,

so of course I said yes, yes.

And so we figured out a
way to make that happen.

But I do want, so that answers your
question of why it remained sort of

You know, a lifelong journey versus
the one year that we planned, but going

back to your question about mode of
travel and our relationship to fear.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, just straight
up security, you know, traveled in

a lot of dodgy areas myself in the
world, you know, you know, that 90

percent of the time it's fine, but
occasionally it's not, you know, and yeah,

Lainie Libeti: yeah.

I do agree.

Look, I traveled, I hitchhiked all
over Europe when I was in my twenties.

Like I, you know, had this
experience of trusting the world.

And so, you know, when I started
this journey 20 years later

with my child I knew that.

The fear is

it's, it comes from within, but it's not
always, you know, grounded in, in reality.

Sometimes it is, but there's
also a big difference when

you're traveling with a child.

Oh, and to answer your
question, actually going back.

Yeah, we, we had backpacks and we traveled
on bus and trains and yeah, that's it.

We didn't have a vehicle.

So we decided where we wanted to go.

We looked at the, you know, maps and said,
okay, and this bus will go to this town.

Do we want to go here?

Okay, let's research it.

Let's do it.

And thank God the internet, when
I traveled, you know, now it's.

40 years ago, when I was in Europe or 35
years ago, when I was in Europe, like,

there was no Internet, but at least
there was Internet when my son and I set

out and there was a lot of information.

We had our laptops and such,
but fear was one of those huge.

Sort of the 1st year, it was 1 of those
things that was a big part of my journey.

It was my relationship to fear.

It was really my relationship
to making sure that that.

We felt safe and really because

Rupert Isaacson: you had
to keep him safe, right?

I mean, yeah, it's one thing to
keep yourself safe But it's a whole

other thing to keep a kid safe.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Lainie Libeti: Well, I
mean, you know that if

Rupert Isaacson: you fail
That's the end of him, right?

So and

Lainie Libeti: that's it and that's it.

But what we found Well, first of all, you
know, I didn't do the same things I did

when I was in my twenties hitchhiking.

I didn't go to bars.

I didn't like, like, it wasn't
the same sort of journey.

Like, we didn't go out late at night.

You know, we, we researched and talk
to people and read up on places.

We were going to make sure that
it, it felt fairly secure, but.

We received before we left on our
journey, we received a lot of fear based

messaging from our friends and family.

Like, you need to

get

Lainie Libeti: insurance like
that whole sort of train of

thought, which was kind of crazy.

That didn't make sense to me.

And people were afraid for
us because look, I'm blonde

and you're a single woman.

And I know that's what
you were alluding to.

And you have a child with you.

What if somebody's, you know, grabs you.

But what we found was each country
we went to is filled with people.

And parents and children and parents
and children, we'd meet them at

parks and they just wanted it.

I'd sit before I spoke any Spanish
on benches next to the mothers

watching their children play.

And we'd look at each
other and giggle and point.

And that was the basis
of our communication.

But I never felt threatened.

I felt like I was threatened.

You know, I was surrounded by people
like me, they just spoke different

languages and had different skin colors
and different traditions and cultures.

And that's okay.

How lovely, how absolutely lovely.

So I didn't feel that
kind of, you know, fear.

I mean, I could tell you a
very Very funny, fierce story.

If you want to hear it,

Rupert Isaacson: tell me

Lainie Libeti: we were, that was my dog.

We were a city called Cartago.

I wanted to go to the coffee region
when we were in Costa Rica and

some people had said, don't go.

It's scary there.

You know, it's dangerous, you know,
it could be dangerous in certain

areas, just as any place could be.

And I was like, okay.

And this was still within the first six
months or seven months of our travel, or

maybe it was, maybe it was just after,
no, I think it was just after Guatemala.

So it was maybe nine months, 10 months in.

So I'm still kind of in
this, like, there's fear.

You know, I don't speak the language yet.

You know, my Spanish is
nothing at this point.

And I remember, okay, but I want to
go to Cartago and Miró was up for the,

the journey and I wanted to see the
coffee region and we get there, we

get there somewhere in the evening.

And we're looking for our hostel or hotel.

I remember where we were staying at
the time and we're trying to follow

this map to find the location.

And it's now getting dark and the map.

Said, go down this 1 street and it
was very, very narrow and it was in

between these 2 buildings kind of
alley like, and I remember being kind

of, you know, on alert, really on
alert and, you know, hyper vigilant

at this point, you know, not really.

Kind of feeling secure for some
reason, just because these people

said, Oh, Cartago scary place.

And I remember coming towards us at
the end of the kind of alley or street.

Here comes a man walking towards us.

And immediately I turned to Miro
and I said, Miro, give me your hand.

And he goes, why?

And I said, that man has big pants.

And I don't even know
what the hell that means.

I don't know why that freaked me out.

I don't know what the fear was.

He passed us.

We started cracking up and we just
started talking about what fear is.

You know, we got to finally
found our hotel and got to our

room and, you know, we had this
conversation, but there was like this.

Exhale from me when I realized how
this fear was making me like very

hypervigilant, very like non, just
thinking there's, there's corn, like

danger at the turn of the corner.

And a lot of that hypervigilance, by
the way, it comes from my own, you

know, growing up and my own healing
and all of that stuff, somebody who

grew up in a household that You know,
I was always yelled at every single

day, like the, the screaming and, you
know, that, that messed with my nervous

system and, and I remain hypervigilant
for much of my early adult life.

So that kind of accessing that memory,
you know, maybe it kept us safe, but

it also like that experience of the
ridiculousness of being afraid of

a man's big pants and thinking that
my son, you know, Give me your hand.

Like, like, like this whole
thing was kind of a story.

Rupert Isaacson: Natural reactions.

I mean, yeah, that

is yes.

And I mean, you know, obviously I've
been all over the world and traveled

in dangerous places and this and that.

But what I do know is
that the dangers are real.

It's a little bit like when
you're walking in the bush.

I mean, there are lines and an
elephant out there and they're just,

oh, and you kind of need to know.

If you don't know the area, then you
kind of want a guide, you know, and

as you say, you take local advice and
all of that, but nonetheless, a big,

big leap to do something like that.

And was, did you, the other, the other
thing, of course, is when you travel

like that in developing countries,
sometimes you get sick, right?

Sometimes you go down with a stomach
bug or something like that that can

knock you out for quite a few days.

Did that ever happen?

And then you're sort of having to
tell Miro, okay, here's what you do.

This is where to go buy food.

This is, you know, cause
you just can't move.

Were you lucky with that?

Were you just cast iron stomach and
nothing like that ever happened?

Lainie Libeti: Surprisingly,
that didn't happen to me.

I do remember Miro getting
struck with some bug and I

don't remember what country.

I think it might have been Ecuador or
Columbia, but I do remember me taking care

of him and taking him to, they, they have
wonderful clinics and, and like doctors.

Attached to pharmacies, you know,
and it's, I mean, healthcare is

really affordable for those sorts
of things in these countries, but

I'm nothing like that ever happened
to me as far as I can remember.

I, I, you look, I've scanned 16 years.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I mean, in
all my years of travel, it's only

happened to me once or twice, but yeah.

Once in India, you know, but it
sure can happen if it happens.

It can happen, sure.

Rupert Isaacson: And then, you know,
if you're responsible for a kid.

I guess what I'm doing is I'm
just trying to answer all the

questions which would come up in the
mind of anyone listening because what

you did is something I would totally do.

But I would also go through all of
that trepidation and I would expect to

have to answer all of those questions.

Because we

Lainie Libeti: had an emergency plan.

I mean, we did.

We had, you know, he knew that
he knew where our passports were.

He knew our bank card.

He had full access to our bank card.

It was our money.

He had emergency numbers.

He knew we always knew where the consulate
was in each new country, especially

when he was younger, much younger.

We did take those sorts
of emergency precautions.

You know, should something happen to me?

He knew what to do.

There was a plan.

He knew to call one of my parents
and he knew to get to a consulate.

He knew to, you know, ask for police or
whatever, but none of that ever happened.

Rupert Isaacson: So.

While you're on the road I presume the
first year you were probably, you probably

just set some money aside and you were
living off those savings or whatever.

Were you also, but I know because I
followed your story a little bit at the

beginning, I know that you were also
working and freelancing as you went.

What?

Tell me about that.

Like at what point did you realize,
you know, actually I can make

a living on the road like this.

I could, I can live this way.

This is, I can economically support this.

That's interesting because I think for
a lot of people, it's natural to think,

well, you're either at home working or
you're on vacation or you're traveling.

If you're traveling, you've
made the money to go and travel.

And then at a certain point you'll
need to go home and refill the coffers.

And so, so tell me how that began to
happen where you started to realize, Oh,

this actually could be my livelihood.

Lainie Libeti: Well, I told you this, this
story of eight months into the travels

when Miro said, can we do this forever?

That's when I had to look at two very
important aspects of our journey.

I figured one year of travel.

We had savings.

We were fine.

We were on a budget.

The budget was bigger than, you
know, then somebody who was no living

nomadically because I wanted us to
be able to go do things and have,

you know, go zip lining and do some
You know, really fun adventure stuff.

The other thing I had to
look at was, was education.

And we could talk about that afterwards
if you want, but I knew if you're of

travel, that would be educational enough.

I just knew that.

So when we decided eight months
in to actually continue it, I had

to then start freelancing again.

And I, from eight months.

It took me about four months
to build up my clientele again.

So I'd have work and I could work on
the road and do, you know, I, I just,

as I said, I came from advertising,
marketing, branding, design, all that,

that they were all skills that I had.

I had a computer.

So the first eight months and really
until about a year, I didn't work, but

eight months to about, You know, for
those, the, the final months of the,

the first year I started to reach out
to my contacts and, you know, put up

sites doing freelance and, and things
like that, trying to find clients.

And so, yeah, I could work on the road.

I also started to blog.

And part of that was crazy,
you know, we started to, like,

people started to read it.

Like, that's how you, how
we connected, I think.

Yeah, I

Rupert Isaacson: found it.

I was like, this is fascinating.

I started to read your blog.

Yeah.

I

Lainie Libeti: can't believe this woman

Rupert Isaacson: is doing this.

This is amazing.

Yeah.

Lainie Libeti: And my son and I
were doing a podcast at the time

and his cute little voice, you know,
we would get to a country and we'd.

Research a topic together
and we'd write it together.

Sometimes we do interviews with
other people and you know, this,

this cute, you know, little voice of
Miro, you heard his voice earlier.

Yeah, he's, he's, he's a man now, you
know, he's not this little kid anymore.

And so people started listening to our
podcast and people started following

our journey and that was crazy.

And so I was doing a little bit of design
work and a little bit of consulting

and marketing, but frankly, I hated it.

I was done.

I was like, so done with that.

I was burnt out and it just felt
like it was so contrary to who I

was becoming through this journey.

And eventually I gave that up
and at one point our blog became

the source of supporting us.

We were selling advertisements.

We were getting sponsorships.

It was like super crazy.

It was like the wild west of
travel blogging back then.

Again, you know, this is, we're talking
16 years ago and travel blogging

now it's, it's this whole industry,
but I was one of the first without

Rupert Isaacson: realizing it,
you were being an influencer.

Lainie Libeti: Yeah, I guess so.

Sure.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay,
so this begins to happen.

One, one last logistical question.

You go down there without
Spanish, yet you're renting

houses and things like that.

How are you managing to do that
without speaking the language?

How did we end up doing that?

Rupert Isaacson: Unless you
were renting from expats.

Lainie Libeti: I think many, I
remember landing in this, this town,

this Really, you know, dirt road
kind of town on the beach in Peru.

And I remember we got off
the bus and we're like, okay,

we're going to stay here.

This is where we're going to go.

And we're going to stay here for either
a month or a couple, you like, cause

we like, like to immerse ourselves.

And I remember we went to a cafe

and we met somebody.

This, this surfer dude who was on
a bike and he spoke English and

he's like, yeah, I'll help you.

I'll, I'll, I'll ride around the
town and I'll see who's renting

and I'll come back and get you.

And that was really cool.

A lot of times we went to hostels.

And I think from there, we were
able to reach out to locals, my

Rupert Isaacson: contact
network from there.

Yeah,

Lainie Libeti: but my son learned, he was
able to pick up on Spanish quite quickly.

I mean, he's a fluent speaker now.

He's a native fluent speaker.

My Spanish is still kind of
embarrassing 16 years later, but

we do own a cafe now, you know, and
I speak Spanish all the time, but.

You know, it's my Spanish is not great.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, I'm
sure you're being very modest.

Okay.

So the year turns into years, you
move away from freelancing, you

become an internet personality
without ever having intended to, and.

Realize that what your journey is
doing is, of course, inspiring all

sorts of people around the world
to take leaps of faith and freedom.

Tell us what you do now
and what was the evolution?

I don't want, I sort of know
what you do, but I don't want

to spoil that for the listeners.

I want it from your mouth because it's
extraordinary the work you're doing now.

How did that evolve?

So start with where you're at now.

And then how did you get that?

Lainie Libeti: Well, it's a story.

Well, one of the things that I
mentioned, I said, we can go back to

that was the whole education point.

Oh, yes.

Lainie Libeti: So I knew intuitively
that a year of travel, as I said,

would be more educational than
fifth grade for my son that I knew.

But as we decided to continue our travels
as an responsible adult, as a parent,

I needed to Wrap my head around what
education would look like for my child.

I'm responsible for his education.

Would we homeschool?

Would I enroll him in some
sort of online school?

Would I enroll him in a local school?

What would that look like?

And I started to research
all these different kinds

of modalities of education.

And I learned about
something called unschooling.

It really has been rebranded.

Pretty much in the last 15 years,
because a lot of people don't have

a strong connection with the word
unschooling because it's, what's it

Rupert Isaacson: rebranded as now?

Lainie Libeti: Self directed learning.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Lainie Libeti: Self directed learning.

So at the time, yeah, I still, a lot
of people call it unschooling, but you

know, I dove deep into this world and
I started to research what that looked

like and what the role of the parent
was and how facilitation looked like.

And how how the parent became a
learner alongside the learner,

and actually, we're all learners.

We're all learning all the time.

So it kind of challenged my idea
of, well, wait a minute, just

because I'm not school age anymore.

Does that mean I can't learn?

You know, so yeah, I want to learn.

I want to learn.

So lifelong learner next to
a self directed learner that

really lit me up in so many ways.

And as soon as I discovered
this philosophy, I read

everything I could about it.

I read.

You know, books and I read about that,
about it from the political aspect.

I read about it from the, you
know, the learning aspect, the

autodidactic, you know, world like
that was this whole new world for me.

And we really became conscious
about our learning and yeah,

this became a learning journey.

And instead of homeschooling or
unschooling, we called it world schooling.

And to me, that really talked about The
journey that we were on at any time.

Look, I, and I'm, I'm obnoxiously
curious, obnoxiously, you know,

I ask questions about everything.

I never grew out of
that two year old stage.

Like why, why, why?

Like, I want to know everything.

And with the invent of the
internet, I can learn as much

as I want based on my curiosity.

And that was the thing that I started
modeling to my son is we were traveling.

I remember being at the, The Panama
Canal and asking question after question

after question to the tour guide.

And we were, I was like, Mom,
we can look this stuff up.

You're, you're totally annoying him.

He's like, but let's look
it up when we get back.

And those, those are the kinds of, you
know, that, that transformed our journey

into like this whole learning journey.

And.

Because we were working on this project
together, our blog and our podcast

to document our journey, it did, it
transformed into this like, and we're

learning this and we're learning that
and these people are interesting and

people do things like this culturally
and the history is that, you know, we

tell these stories on our podcast and
learning to us was just like, As natural

as living, and a lot of people started
writing to me going, you know, well,

how can I educate my child this way?

How can I do this thing?

And where can I go in this place,
you know, in this country and with

five people, what should we do?

And suddenly I was getting
these questions that I wrote.

Wasn't really qualified to answer
because I was a single person.

I wasn't in Europe.

I wasn't in Asia.

I wasn't with a large family.

I didn't know how to
answer these questions.

And I said, okay, let's start this
Facebook group because I'm sure we

can come up with these ideas together.

And there are people that are in different
parts of the world that have this piece of

the that, you know, this questions answer
and We could all share information and

that really became the beginning or the
launch of the world schooling movement.

So, you know, I didn't mean to, but
I started through this and, you know,

I had a Facebook group that grew to
60, 000 people and, you know, all this

stuff happened, but just it's kind of.

Accidentally, I started a movement
and accidentally, you know, there's,

there's so many families doing this now.

So, yeah, now I got sidetracked.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, I'm
actually, I'm busy on my phone as

you speak, looking up, okay, world
school, like, what's world school?

Just to see, boom, all
this stuff comes up.

Lainie Libeti: But it wasn't a thing
before, it just wasn't a thing.

So, yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: It's,
it's very interesting.

What is world schooling?

Everything you need to know.

People often ask.

I don't know.

Here's,

Lainie Libeti: yep,

But it wasn't a thing
until we made it a thing.

And, and now everybody
can make it their own.

That's fine.

Okay.

Rupert Isaacson: So a couple of things,
as you know, I homeschooled for many years

because my son, Rowan, was, you know.

Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: it's in a way that
the local schools in Texas, rural

Texas, they just couldn't handle.

So I was sort of forced into it.

I just said he didn't want to
cause I thought it was way too

much work, but I ended up doing it.

And like you, I ended up, you know,
formulating a method So it's become

a thing and it's called movement
method and it's all over the world.

It's neuroscience, basically applied
neuroscience, blah, blah, blah.

And then at a certain point after I'd
been doing that for about a decade

Rowan decided he actually wanted to.

give the last two years
of high school a try.

And he did.

And he went and he graduated.

One of the, so it was interesting that
he then went back into the system.

But for sure, and he said this himself,
he wouldn't have been able to do that

if he hadn't been able to grow his brain
effectively in the environment that He

needed, and that was completely directed.

I remember the first day
he came back from school.

He tried to even tried to find the
most hippie school we possibly could.

And it just, he wasn't having it.

And he took all his clothes
off and rolled in the dirt.

I want to be a countryside boy.

And I was like, I hear you.

And that's what we'll do.

And then there was this point where,
so then I was sort of homeschooling,

homeschooling and using these different
movements that I had realized on

the horse opened up the learning
receptors and opened up communication.

So then I'd gone to
neuroscientists and found out why.

I said, okay, well, great.

So I could do this without a horse now
and I can use various types of play

equipment and so on, feed in information.

And so this is good.

And then he starts saying to me, as
we like cracked it and I'm feeding

in like national curriculum stuff.

And he says to me, I'm sick of learning.

I don't want to learn anymore.

Lainie Libeti: Oh no.

Rupert Isaacson: And that's where I
discovered unschooling and, and I sort

of looked at him and went, all right.

Like I wasn't going to fight him over it.

Like I was going to, all right.

And then I sort of went and told
him, I think I could do that.

I think I could, I think I could go right
on doing what I'm doing just by stealth.

And that turned out to be absolutely
the case because for him it was

about, you know, stress and anxiety.

So.

I know that process of
falling into something.

One of the criticisms, which of course
people always leveled, one of the many

criticisms people always leveled at
us, was oh, well, if you homeschool

like that out on a ranch in Texas, what
about his, you know, socialization?

And I was like, what?

So socialization, if I send him
into that rural school, though,

he's going to get massively bullied.

Yeah, that's negative socialization.

Is that what you're saying I should do?

Or, but I hear you.

So, of course, the life that
we were living on that ranch

was very international.

Once horseboy method and movement method
became kind of a thing, there were all

sorts of people coming all the time.

So he was constantly surrounded by
all sorts of interesting people,

many of whom stayed for years in
his life and are still in his life.

However with autism, a lot of many,
many kids actually Don't so much crave

a peer group when they're younger.

That seems to come later.

They often kind of know
they're not that safe around.

Other kids and so they tend
to look to adults, but Miro.

I don't know if you would say
he was neurodiverse or what?

Obviously he would be more a type of a
child that would want to Have some sort

of a peer group and so on if you're
moving from country to country you're

speaking a foreign language and so
on How did you navigate around that?

How did or how did that?

How did that evolve?

To work for him.

Lainie Libeti: Yeah.

Well, that that's a really
pivotal part of our story.

Actually as we started to continue our
journey, you know, he was now moving

into his early adolescence and because
people were reading our blog and, and

they were really fascinated with this form
of education, we were invited to speak

at conferences in the, in the States.

So, One time we flew back from Peru,
and we went to our first unschooling

conference, and we were presenting, both
he and I, about our life and our learning.

And that wasn't the amazing
part, the presenting part.

What the amazing part was,
there were all of these.

Free range, 13 year olds and 12 year
olds and 15 year olds and 14 year olds.

And they were all running around together
and they were all being hyper creative

and, you know, doing theater and music
and creating games and all of this stuff.

And that was really his first
sort of entrance into An

adolescent peer group, right?

Because from 10 to 13, he was social,
you know, it was getting quote unquote,

I hate the terms of socialization as,

Rupert Isaacson: you

Lainie Libeti: know,
socialization could only happen,

Rupert Isaacson: but he wasn't
craving to have a group of mates.

Lainie Libeti: He

Rupert Isaacson: was nine to 12.

Not, not so much.

Not

Lainie Libeti: so much because we were
doing adventures and we were meeting

interesting people and sometimes there
were kids and sometimes there weren't

and there was always, you know, an
adventure and we, we learn how to

surf and we learn how to do this and
we like all these different things.

Yeah,

Lainie Libeti: he wasn't really missing
because remember he was really craving me.

And the connection that he was needing
to feel, which prompted the whole trip.

But at 13, things changed
and that became salute.

That became kind of like, Oh, okay.

So now.

Something else is happening.

Okay.

And I remember flying back to Peru.

We had this like really
deep heart to heart.

He was feeling the loss of this thing
that he wanted, which was community.

And we talked, and we talked, and we,
like, should we move back to the states?

Do you want community?

You know, these kids that are
unschooling kids, these are your people.

They're not the people
that are in schools now.

No, he didn't want to go back to school.

He didn't want a traditional education.

He wanted Those people.

He wanted the, you know, the people
that were free , you know, that,

that were doing the same sort of
learning that he was do doing.

There was some sort of
camaraderie, camaraderie or

connection with those people.

But they all didn't live in one place.

They all came together for our conference.

So we, you know, we were, we talked and
talked and he was having what, what I like

to call situational depression, right?

He,

Rupert Isaacson: what does that mean?

Lainie Libeti: Affected by the situation
there, there was a, a great depression.

I don't think ever had this
diagnosis of clinical depression,

but there it was really, it became
a part of our everyday life.

Now, he was so sad.

There were no.

You know, he didn't want to, he, he had
no connection to like the potato farmers

in, in the Andes where we were living.

He just didn't connect with
these boys, his age, right?

He wanted his people, but he
didn't want to be in the States.

So there was this, this big.

Rupert Isaacson: So what was the solution?

How did you, how did you solve that?

Lainie Libeti: Well, That
became this, this brainstorm.

I said, well, why don't
we bring kids to us?

Right.

Lainie Libeti: That was the birth of
our, our business that we launched

together called Project World School.

Okay.

Lainie Libeti: That really became
the reason why we created this

business and Miro was saying,
nah, this is never going to work.

This is your mom.

You're, you're, you're dreaming.

This isn't going to work.

And it took about a year, actually,
and we got our first group to

come now, the preparation to

Rupert Isaacson: Peru.

They came to the

Lainie Libeti: room.

We sold a teen retreat.

So the preparation that I needed
to do, and this, so launch you into

answering the question that I never
answered, which is what I'm doing now.

But this launched me into,
okay, we're bringing teens here.

I need to know everything
about facilitating teens.

I need to know about the team brain.

I needed to know about neurobiology.

I needed to know about.

How to hold space.

I need to know about learning communities.

I needed to know about
conflict resolution.

I needed to know about.

The travel logistics, I am creating
a company out of need, but I

need to be aware of these things.

And that sent me into this deep
dive of self directed learning.

You know, I'm in autodidactic and
always have been my whole life.

So I learned everything
I could about this.

And there was a, You know, sort of
side story that we can talk about

later, but there was a convergence
of information that I was learning

about the team brain and about
psychology and neurobiology and hormone

development and all this stuff that.

Really kind of sparked some of the
sort of inner unsettledness inside of

me about my adolescence and the abuse
that I felt growing up and, and the

way that my brain was programmed, you
know, and I, you know, I started to

realize that this hyper independence
was a trauma response inside of me.

And you, you know, all of the tools
that I thought were my superpowers

really came from my pro my childhood
programming, which was rooted in abuse.

And as I started to work with teens, It

really helped me to start self healing
so that like there were all these

things going on at the same time.

My son moving into his own adolescence, me
revisiting my adolescence, and then, you

know, learning the, the, the information,
the academic information to help guide

me and create those sort of foundations
to be able to hold space for other teens.

It was powerful.

Like that really was what drove me
into the work that I'm doing now.

Rupert Isaacson: As you know, if
you followed any of my work, I'm

an autism dad and we have a whole
career before this podcast in helping

people with neurodivergence, either
who are professionals in the field.

Are you a therapist?

Are you a caregiver?

Are you a parent?

Or are you somebody with neurodivergence?

When my son, Rowan, was
diagnosed with autism in 2004,

I really didn't know what to do.

So I reached out for mentorship, and
I found it through an amazing adult

autistic woman who's very famous, Dr.

Temple Grandin.

And she told me what to do.

And it's been working so
amazingly for the last 20 years.

That not only is my son basically
independent, but we've helped

countless, countless thousands
of others reach the same goal.

Working in schools, working at
home, working in therapy settings.

If you would like to learn this
cutting edge, neuroscience backed

approach, it's called Movement Method.

You can learn it online, you
can learn it very, very simply.

It's almost laughably simple.

The important thing is to begin.

Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr.

Grandin and see what results can follow.

Go to this website, newtrailslearning.

com Sign up as a gold member.

Take the online movement method course.

It's in 40 countries.

Let us know how it goes for you.

We really want to know.

We really want to help people like
me, people like you, out there

live their best life, to live
free, ride free, see what happens.

Okay.

Just before we get into
that, there's a lot,

Lainie Libeti: right?

Rupert Isaacson: I want to know how
those conferences or those retreats

then ended up being structured.

Also, how did you, there's some
logistics there like insurance and you're

suddenly responsible for all these kids.

That's right.

Whoa, that's a tall order.

And are they still going?

And if, and, and what did you do?

What, what, what, what was the format?

Lainie Libeti: Yeah.

So, Project World School
is still operating.

We are still running
retreats, believe it or not.

The first retreat was a smaller
retreat and we did a lot of learning.

It was.

It's a little too long.

We did a six week retreat for four teens.

The logistics, luckily I have a
lawyer in my family that helped

me create, you know, yeah, because

Rupert Isaacson: that, that, that's
a lot of, there's a lot of moving

parts to something like that.

Yeah.

Lainie Libeti: And and guess what?

I'm an amazing producer, so I
can do multiple things at once.

I now produce conferences as well as well.

So I've produced 10 conferences and I
love lots of moving parts and putting

things together to create this big.

Vision.

And I've got a mind that
will allow me to do that.

But yeah, so the structure really was
based on adventures based on, first of

all, there has to be, um, consent, right?

So each teen really needed to
consent to the things that we

were doing each and every day.

And consent is huge because I think
sovereignty and in human beings,

bodily autonomy and sovereignty
and all of those things are a big

part of my, my personal philosophy.

And I really want to make sure
that that's a part of every event.

That I've ever hosted or and
we'll host in the future.

So, the consent of here's, here's the
guidelines that we must live by in order

for you to be a part of this retreat.

Do you consent to these guidelines?

The guidelines are things like no drugs.

We need to be within
the community structure.

No, no, you know, leaving the
community, no drinking, you know,

no, you know, Honoring each other's
bodily, bodily sovereignty, autonomy

respect for things, that sort of thing.

So there's, there's this consent going in.

It's not rules.

Rules are very different than,
than opting in to something.

And that, that creates
a, an agreement, right?

So every, so Approaching it from
that perspective from the, from the

get go means that we have to have a
sense of community and communication.

There has to be each team has to have
the ability to be able to either self

advocate for themselves within the
group or with me, the facilitator.

So I can advocate for them,
but there has to be a level

of of emotional intelligence.

You have other

Rupert Isaacson: facilitators as well.

I presume you have.

Because if you went to blue
in the middle of it was always

Lainie Libeti: to always to adults and.

Most of the, the retreats always,
you know, have have been like,

we haven't had any problems.

There's been a few because people, you
know, change their minds and things

happen and we have to negotiate that.

But going in.

That really is, is the
spirit of our team retreats.

It's your autonomous, your, your, your
words, your point of view matters.

And we created this structure
of a nightly circle.

So every night we review the day,
what worked, what didn't work.

We ask questions based on like
a, a worldview perspective,

but it was always a way of.

Of using the internal worlds as
a way of expressing the external

world, whatever was happening.

So the external world became a reflection
of our internal worlds, you know, as well.

So the internal worlds were a big
part of our, our journeys and the

project world school structure.

Yeah.

Go

Rupert Isaacson: ahead.

What goes on on a retreat though?

What's, what's like, give
me an idea of a typical day.

Lainie Libeti: Sure.

So I'll give you an
example of a Peru retreat.

You know, today we're going to explore,
you know, these set of ruins and we're

going to speak with a historian at
who talks about alternative history.

And now we're going to we're going to do
a comparison between the academic history

of this ruin, and we're going to look and
observe what we see, and then listen to

the story of the alternative researcher.

Where do we think?

You know, the, the, the truth lies
using that kind of critical exploration.

And you know, if we were in Peru, we're
going to explore the story of the Incas.

We're going to also go
to the the, what is that?

The planetarium, the outdoor planetarium
and learn about the, the myth of

the creatures that lived in, in.

the stars and how that informed the
traditions that we, we saw in the ruins.

We're going to explore it from
all these different perspectives.

We're going to go to the farm now.

You'd bring

Rupert Isaacson: in local historians
locally or you'd go to them.

Lainie Libeti: All locals, all locals,
but we also, and then, but, but it wasn't

just about listening to a historian.

Everything was experiential learning.

There were no tests.

There were no, you know, It was,
it was a lot of of putting the

pieces together through all of the
experiences to learn about this culture.

And then we'd look at the modern
day culture and and have some

really big examination of that.

Or we'd go stay on a farm and learn how.

To cook the traditional foods and actually
do it and where are the traditional

clothes and milk a cow or, you know,
eat a guinea pig or whatever the

thing was of that particular country.

And it was about cultural immersion.

So experiential learning through
cultural immersion and a lot

of feedback and a lot of.

Internal processing

Rupert Isaacson: and the kids who came
or still come on these are all from world

school slash unschooling backgrounds
Or are they now from every background?

Are these also high
schoolers who just want to?

Experience something different.

Lainie Libeti: I'd say 90 95 percent
of our clients are Some sort of

alternative alternatively educated.

We've had kids from like Sudbury
schools or democratic schools.

On occasions, we've had kids
from traditional schools.

Believe it or not, those
are the percentage of times

that we've had problems.

Rupert Isaacson: Well,

Lainie Libeti: it's

Rupert Isaacson: no doubt.

Yeah.

Because if people are used to being
organized and told what to do, it's

very tricky if they find themselves in a

Lainie Libeti: They have freedom
for the first time and it's about

who do you push boundaries against?

Well, quote unquote, the perceived
authority and we're not authority.

We're in partnership again.

That partnership that my son and I set
out on continued through our business.

Right?

So that's how we.

Function in that most

Rupert Isaacson: kids are not
taught any kind of partnership,

Lainie Libeti: right?

They're like, wait, this does
not compute does not make sense.

I have

Rupert Isaacson: that's a skill
set that yeah, intelligence and

evolution that you're not going
to get that at a regular school.

Lainie Libeti: Exactly.

Rupert Isaacson: But here's a, here's
another question then devil's advocate.

Okay.

So the, someone like Miro comes at
the end of that education, as you

say, he's 26 now can those kids then
go on to university if they want to?

And if so, how, like, would they then
just go back and take a GED and sit in

whatever exams they want to, what they're
told that they need to sit in order

to go and get the university entrance
that they need, or what's the mechanism

by which someone from the world school
background would then enter higher,

sort of, mainstream higher education?

Lainie Libeti: Well, we haven't
moved into what I do now, but

Rupert Isaacson: so is, is
that the tr is it part Okay.

Lainie Libeti: It can be
part of the work that I do.

I work with teens now directly with
tools for mental health, but I tend

to work with a lot of teens that
obviously come from the unschooling

world, schooling, homeschooling world.

And part of what I do is
help them to organize their

experience into a transcript.

Transcripts can be created from anybody
because we could create it from a parent.

It could be created from, from an
outside source, but I work from the

perspective of mental health and
also educational background, right?

Rupert Isaacson: So.

Multiple transcripts, exactly.

Lainie Libeti: Well, in the United
States, and to answer your question

from the perspective of the United
States, and it may be different in

different countries in the in Europe
and South America and the rest of

the world transcripts are from your.

School, your high school
experience and it records what you

studied and what your grade is.

And really that's all it is.

As an unschooler and an unschooling
coach, one of the things that I help

students do is really translate their
experience into a trans scriptable

language that a college will accept.

There's.

In the United States,
there's private schools.

There's a there's also state schools in
every state, and each one has a different

format of what they're looking for.

And in addition to just a line item,
I help on schoolers, teens, you know.

Create portfolios that show their
work that that are not just,

you know, art based portfolio.

When we say portfolio, we think
of an artist showing a portfolio.

This is a scope and breadth of
work that they've created, and

it may not be a physical thing.

It may be a description of the
experience and an outline of the.

Learning that took place, you know,
and it may be you know, a journey

into volunteering at an animal
sanctuary for several months.

And we could pull that into
biology civics, you know, civics.

Civics and service and humanities and all
these other areas that become relevant,

a relevant part of their experience.

And I'll tell you, I, there's an,
there's an unschooling mother of five,

who was the Dean at a private school
in Dubai, who got all of her kids

into whatever university they wanted.

Because she was able to distill their
information into, you know, this

very unique package, educational
package that they were able to present

to the college of their choice.

And she taught me many things
as I do this for my clients.

You know.

Colleges, especially in the United
States, universities in the United

States, which is where the majority of
my clients come from, are looking for

those unique applications that stand out.

They'll take the top 1 percent
of those or 2 percent of those

versus the same transcript with
the same GPA and the same grades.

that they see over and over
and over and over again.

Don't they

Rupert Isaacson: require,
don't they also require by law,

a sort of GPA thing or not?

Grade point average thing.

Do they not require, like in England,
or that you've taken, you know, your

SATs, or in England it would be your
GCSEs and your A levels or whatever.

Are these now actually not necessary
to get into college, or you have to

find a way of doing an equivalent?

Lainie Libeti: Well, you see by law
and you're, you're making it seem as if

there is a legal precedence dictating
who gets into college and who doesn't.

Colleges determine via their
own system, whether it's a

Cal State College, you know.

And, and that system itself will
have its own set of regulations,

or the private universities will
take whatever they're private.

They'll take whatever they want,

so there's

Lainie Libeti: no law.

I'm not so certain about the UK and if
they accept these types of students.

I don't know.

I think I need to, I

Rupert Isaacson: think
I need to research it.

Yeah, because I'm sort of, I'm
interviewing you from Germany.

And

Germany is very different.

Also, there's a stricter.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, there also
is no homeschooling in Germany.

No,

there isn't.

There isn't.

Rupert Isaacson: So, for example, if I
were to take my kids out of the country

and homeschool them and want them to get
into a German university, they'd have

to go and take some exams at some point.

But one of the things I found with
Rowan, my son, there was, I remember

at this one point I was driving him
in to sit a three hour math exam.

And you've got to understand,
this is a kid who was non

verbal, you know, incontinent.

Massive tantrums, harming himself, and
then there I am, ten years later, driving

him into this three hour math exam, and I
said to him, are you really gonna do that?

And he went, yeah, I'm totally gonna do
that, but, like I said before, if I hadn't

done all those years of movement method,
I wouldn't have been able to get that.

But I guess my question is that if, if,
if I'm, I'm, I'm trying to anticipate

what a listener might need to know
if they like, they're listening to

go, Oh, I quite like to do that.

But maybe I'm not American or maybe I, you
know, what are the various systems now?

Okay.

You're working mostly
with kids from the USA.

Do you also work fairly
directly with colleges?

And do you reach out to colleges and say,
Hey, I do this, you know, what are your

parameters, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Or is it really.

You just help the teen and
then they go from there.

Lainie Libeti: I just help the teen.

Yeah, I'm hands on with the teen So
my clients that I've worked with for

the educational piece That's that's
only like maybe 10 percent of the

work I do the majority of the work I
do is in the field of mental health,

Rupert Isaacson: which we'll
get into in a second Yeah, yeah

Lainie Libeti: I

Rupert Isaacson: exhaust this
mind that I'm, that I'm, yeah

Lainie Libeti: that piece is primarily
for, for students in the us and I, I,

you know, again, I just don't know, I
just don't know the requirements for

colleges in other countries, but there
are advocates that I'm networked with

that are doing this work around the
world, but I just can't speak to it.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

I'd be really interested to find
out because I think it's, it's

something which a lot of parents
would really love to look at.

And maybe assume that they can't.

So I think I might go off and
do a little bit of research.

Okay.

Rupert Isaacson: What I come up with too.

All right.

So let's go into now to the
mental health side of what you do.

How and why did you end
up in mental health?

Because obviously what you did
was very good for mental health.

You didn't necessarily have a
particular mental health crisis with

you and Almost rather the opposite.

You learned how to create
good mental health.

So talk us how You ended up helping people
who are maybe not quite so fortunate

Lainie Libeti: Well again, you know coming
from a background where there was a lot

of Programming that I really wanted to

reprogram.

Right.

You

Lainie Libeti: know, I, I really
didn't like the, the belief that I

had that something was wrong with me,
that I was bad, that I was too much.

Oh, I had those beliefs.

Oh, yeah.

When some scale

Rupert Isaacson: back,
let's hear about you.

Then we need to know a bit
about your, your, well,

Lainie Libeti: you know, basically, you
know, I grew up in a household where,

you know, my mother was very controlling
and she yelled at me all the time.

And I know kids were yelled at.

You know, it was just normal.

It was just a normal part of growing
up, but it also had enough has an

effect on on a person's internal worlds.

It really does.

We create beliefs about ourselves
based on the upbringing that we have.

And like I said, the hypervigilance
was a result of, of, you know,

always being frightened, right?

So I was frightened a lot.

I, you know, I still have episodes
where if I hear people screaming, my

nervous system is dysregulated and,
and I find my body physically crying.

You know, I may not be like,
Oh, I'm going to start crying.

But those are the sorts of nervous
nervous system responses that

my body is programmed to do.

And that comes along with belief systems.

And I noticed in my early twenties, a
lot of history of, you know, being in

relationships with the wrong people.

Who did you think was

Rupert Isaacson: wrong with you?

What do, what do you, would you say
by the time you hit, say being married

pregnancy or Early parent years.

If you could, if someone had sat
you down on the psychiatrist's couch

and said, What's wrong with you?

What would have been like the
three things you'd have said?

Lainie Libeti: Well, it would actually
be before that because I was already into

my path of healing before Miro was born.

I was 32 when he was born, but my
20s is when I really started this

path and I I believed I was a bad
person always trying to do good.

I believe that I was faulty.

I believed I was too much for people.

And then a lot of time I
believed I was not enough.

You know, it was just like this, this
really deep mental, you know, I don't

know if you swear on your, your podcast.

Do you swear?

Swear

Rupert Isaacson: away, my love.

Lainie Libeti: It was this deep
mental fuckery constantly happening

in my head where the messages,
my, my internal voice was really

mean, you know, she was a bitch.

She was horrible.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Yeah.

Lainie Libeti: Yeah.

Yeah.

You can't do this.

You're not good enough.

You're not this.

You're not that you're not
capable of doing this and hearing

those things and not knowing
what to do with those messages.

Really, you know, again, my, my hyper
independence, again, trauma response,

it, it kept me very, you know, on.

On my path when something, you
know, had a red flag, which

really the red flag was me.

I'd leave, you know, my relationships.

I was always the one to leave or I'd
pull him close and I'd push him away.

I pull him close.

I push him away right before
they're ready to leave me.

I'd leave.

So like this, this.

Relationship dynamic that I was having
in my 20s was not working and the

fuckery in my head was not really
conducive of being a healthy person.

And I wanted to change that.

I wanted that.

I wanted to reprogram that.

I wanted it to, to, to be something else.

And so I don't deep, you know, and in
those years, And I learned quite a bit

about how to heal some of, you know, I
had attachment wounds and how to create a

healthy attachments and all of that stuff.

So I had some background in using tools.

But when I became a, and I did this
because I wanted to be a parent,

I wanted to be a parent who didn't
parent the way I was parented.

I did this because it was really important
to me to have these things healed.

And when I finally became a parent at 32,
Like I was aware of my internal dialogue.

I was in, I was aware of the voice and
I was able to turn the volume down.

I use tools to turn that volume down.

I use tools.

Rupert Isaacson: If you
use, tell us about this.

Well,

Lainie Libeti: just by like one
very, very simple tool is by putting

your attention towards that voice
and saying to that voice, instead of

antagonizing it, I hear you and there
must be a wonderful message that you're

trying to give to me to keep me safe.

But I'm going to use this knob, and
I'm going to turn the volume down.

So instead of antagonizing the
voice in my head, taming it.

And then, through shadow work, I
was able to determine where those,

those messages were coming from.

Tell us what

Rupert Isaacson: shadow work is.

Lainie Libeti: Shadow work is dealing
with the parts of yourself that you've

disowned, the parts of yourself that
were programmed and put into the shadow

that are usually shrouded in shame.

A lot of shame is given to you, right?

It, you know, the, the, you're not
good enough and I'm not good enough.

I'm too much for people
that came from my, my.

Psychological development at the time
I was hearing the messages transformed

into messages that made sense to me.

So as a 3 year old or a 5 year old,
if I'm told to shut up, the only thing

that that makes sense to me as a message
is I'm not worthy of being heard.

Right, you know, I, I can't rationalize
beyond my emotional or psychological

development because I am 5 years old.

Right?

So the message that that.

gave me was I'm not good enough
to be heard, or I'm too much.

And I take those identity pieces
and I put them into the shadows,

the parts of myself, and I disown
them and I don't look at them.

Yet, the voice of those shadows come up.

You know, as part of my subconscious
voice, and that's what I was hearing.

So I needed to go deeper and
not just quiet the voice.

I needed to learn where those
those messages came from and heal

some of those wounds that were
part of my childhood programming.

And that became a big journey.

That I embarked on and
still look, nobody's done.

You're never done with
your own internal work.

Rupert Isaacson: That's
effectively Jungian psychoanalysis.

Yeah, that,

Lainie Libeti: that,
that particular is yeah.

Shadow work is all Jungian.

Yeah.

But I also used other tools, you
know, like the turning the voice down,

I

Lainie Libeti: used Byron Katie's, the
work, which I think is so powerful,

which is just a way of separating
the thought, which becomes a belief.

If you believe if, if you think of thought
enough times, that actually becomes a

Rupert Isaacson: repetition
will make a belief.

Absolutely.

And

Lainie Libeti: When you use Byron
Katie's work, you're separating the

thought from the belief and you're
giving it space to question it and

create new possible ways of thinking.

So it creates new neural pathways
around that particular belief and

it helps to loosen the strength or
the power of that limiting belief.

So

Rupert Isaacson: people might, people
might know who Jung was, Carl Jung.

But who's, but tell us, people might
not know who Byron Katie was or is.

Lainie Libeti: She's, she's you know,
somebody who has written self help books

and she created this this tool called,
you know, quote unquote, the work.

If you look Byron Katie up on the
internet, you'll find the work.

It's four simple questions
and then you turn it around.

So let's say I had the
belief I'm not good enough.

You find ways to turn it around.

And you start speaking the
words like, I am good enough.

Okay.

Well, that's pretty simple.

That's a simple turnaround.

Or how about nobody's good enough?

Or, you know, good enough is not good
enough or good enough actually means

being better or, you know, finding ways.

To create new neural pathways
around the same thought, whether

it's true or not doesn't matter.

You're creating new neural
pathways by speaking an alternate

way of that particular thought.

Rupert Isaacson: Again, I'm just
looking this up as, as, as you speak.

I've got, I love

Lainie Libeti: her stuff.

It

Rupert Isaacson: is free

Lainie Libeti: questions.

Is it true?

Rupert Isaacson: Thought is not a factor.

Is it?

One, is it true?

Lainie Libeti: Is, are you sure it's true?

Is

Rupert Isaacson: it absolutely true?

Lainie Libeti: Right.

Is

Rupert Isaacson: it 100 percent true?

Lainie Libeti: Three,

Rupert Isaacson: how does
this thought make me feel?

Lainie Libeti: Right.

And the feeling, when, before
you get to the last one, the

feeling is where the charge is.

And when you have the combination
of a repetition in thought,

which is a belief and a charged
emotion, there's power in that.

And sometimes it takes over
your, your rationality.

And then the last question, go ahead.

Rupert Isaacson: What would
things be like if I didn't feel

if I didn't hold this belief?

Lainie Libeti: Wow.

And then you turn it around.

So like all this together,
it's so incredibly powerful.

That's another tool that I use.

Obviously, I didn't create it, but
it's it's one of those tools that

is mind blowing in mind changing.

It's it can change your you don't
have to do a whole ton of research.

You just need to do this one
tool and that alone is enough.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so

go ahead.

Lainie Libeti: Tools to me are one
of the most magical gifts, right?

Rupert Isaacson: One hundred percent.

Lainie Libeti: Yeah, go ahead.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, this, this begs
another question, which is you, okay,

you did all this work on yourself.

You became a parent, and then
you use these tools to help you

as a parent as well as yourself.

And now you want to, there
was another parent involved.

When you went with Miro, did you have
to justify that to his dad and, asked

for permission to take him out of
the country and so on and so forth.

And how did you, how
did you navigate that?

Cause that also must've
been somewhat tricky.

Lainie Libeti: Well, believe it or
not, Miro's father and I, we were

best friends after we divorced,
we became co parents and we had

a really wonderful relationship.

He had been battling many, many.

physical ailments.

He had, you know, he had, he had things
from like cancer and he had he had so

many struggles from, from his physical
wellbeing that he was always facing.

And when we were married,
he, he had these things.

And when we split, we
split before Miro was born.

And part of that was, you know, I was,
I was Miro's father's primary caretaker,

and he had healed and gotten better, but
I didn't want to be a parent and resent

him and still be in the mode of parenting
him, and we split and it was amicable,

and we remained best friends co parents.

And when I had this idea to leave,
and he had, he had moved to another

state, when I had this idea to leave.

He was he's like, yeah, you go for it.

This is what a great opportunity.

You can do it.

I'm I'm sick.

I can't do this.

I have to be here.

Go do it.

Rupert Isaacson: Thank God.

Thank God.

He wasn't somebody who was, you
know, controlling like nowhere.

You taking my son, you know, down to
that dangerous place full of, you know,

Lainie Libeti: no, no,
he was bless his heart.

He was he was so supportive and really
saw the benefits that Miro was getting

and He was a little trepidatious when
we wanted to, you know, continue the

journey and he flew down to Guatemala
and stayed with us and saw our life and

really felt better, but did go back.

He was living in Arizona at the time.

And just a few, few laters, a
few years later, a few years

later, he did pass away.

So, you know, it's,
it's, it's a sad story.

We were actually on a teen retreat
with a group of teens in Peru

when he passed away and it was.

You know, it was emotional
and sad and, you know, it

was, yeah, what an experience.

And every time we go back to Peru
and go back to that same place, Miro

had a visitation from his father
there, which was really amazing.

But that was, gosh,
eight, nine years ago now.

Rupert Isaacson: So, okay.

So the complexity and healing and
caregiving and all of this, you know,

tied up in this story you managed to
create a son who's mentally pretty cool

because he's grown up in this optimal way.

So.

At what point do you fall into looking
after the mental health of teens and

tweens who are not doing so well?

How does that manifest?

Because I would imagine that a lot of
them who are coming out of the world

schooling environment are fairly happy.

I would, I should imagine that they're
not being bullied at high school,

they're not subject to those kinds of
peer pressures that, you know, so, yeah,

talk, talk to us about mental health.

Lainie Libeti: Well, I get all those
tools that I discovered in my 20s were

a part of my sort of toolbox when I was.

Facilitating teens at the
Project World School retreats.

So I knew that tools could because
I'd used to my used among myself and

I knew that tools were a powerful way
to work through anxiety of, you know,

being homesick being outside of your,
your comfort zone for a period of time

and in an environment that was really,
You know, challenging and new, right?

You know, a lot of the teens that
I work with on the trips had never

been outside of their home country.

They weren't always world schoolers.

Some of them were homeschoolers that
left for the 1st time for our trips.

And so using these tools was really
like, I felt like I could facilitate

anything because I had tools on my side.

It wasn't me psychologist
because I'm not a psychologist.

It was me facilitating tools in
partnership, and I've used the

tools and I've overcome many of
these challenges in my own journey.

And like I said, Working with
adolescents, working with teens

helped me to sort of heal my inner
teen one, every, every single time.

Like it was just so fulfilling to the,
the teen that lived inside of me that was

never seen or heard or really understood.

And when 2020 hit, boy, they're,
they're, you know, isolating teens,

teens that This is an age group that
really needed social connection.

The isolation really affected not
only the world schoolers, but the

homeschoolers and all the other teens
that were in a sort of orbit that

I, I worked in and I said, okay.

We're not traveling.

Let's meet online.

And the meeting, I, I started these
free online sort of meetups and I would

meet with them two hours every week
and we play games the first hour we

talk philosophy or internal worlds.

I call it philosophy because
it sort of takes it outside

of the, the attention of them.

It's something they can talk about and
be heard, but it usually always went back

into, you know, what's going on inside
of them and what they say really matters.

And then the 2nd hour, we'd
play a game of some sort.

So it was this joyful connection
that they look forward to every week.

And from that.

Teens were messaging me because I had,
you know, 40, 50 teens joining every week

and I'd facilitate this big online thing.

And they'd messaged me privately,
Laney, what can I do about this?

You know, I'm feeling this because
I was, I'm not their parent.

I am a parent, but I'm not their parent
and I'm somebody that their parents

trusted and it became like, oh, here's
this other adult that will give me this

outside, you know, perspective and.

So I, in essence, became a mentor to them.

And then I started thinking,
well, wait a minute.

Why don't I put together some courses to
empower them using these tools and I'll

find more tools and get them this massive
tool kit that they can empower themselves

and they can have another partner.

Me and other teens, and we
could do this in community.

And I started to put together this tool
kit and I started producing courses.

So I got certified as a, you know,
life coach, a confidence coach.

And then I, I opened up transformative
mentoring for teens and started

teaching them these tools.

So, It was needed in, in a time of,
you know, the world was shut down

and in 2021, I actually wrote a book
about parenting kids in partnership,

parenting teens in partnership.

And I included the title of

Rupert Isaacson: the book.

Lainie Libeti: The book is
called Seen, Heard and Understood

Parenting and Partnering with
Teens for Greater Mental Health.

And many of the tools that I have
been talking about or that I teach

in my courses are in that book
to empower parents to facilitate

these tools with their teens and
to understand the You know, the

psychological and neurobiological
development of teens while they're

parenting, if they have no background.

And it's written from, from my
perspective, but in academic perspective

from a non academic, I'm, I don't
have a degree in any of this stuff.

I'm a self directed learner.

But it's also from the perspective of a
parent who really wanted to support their

teen and all the other teens that I've
been working with so that people reading

the book can support their community
and their families and in the same way.

Rupert Isaacson: What's the most
important thing that parents of teens

need to understand on the neurobiology?

Everyone knows about hormones, but

Sure, yeah, I know right
about hormones too.

Rupert Isaacson: But beyond that there
are hormones, what, yeah, what, what

do people not know that they, if they
knew it would be easier and better?

Lainie Libeti: Well,
there's a couple of things.

First of all, the, the hormonal, you
know, the, the receptors in the brain

that recept, not adrenaline endorphins are
the, they're, they have the most receptors

than any other time in a human's life.

And so the high of endorphins.

Emotions are something that's
really, really important to teens.

And then the neurobiological side,
the part that is really in, in in, in

the forefront that regulates emotions
is also hyperdeveloped where the

other parts of the brain are not.

So the

Rupert Isaacson: amygdala is, is,
is, is like your nose gets a bit big

before the rest of your face It does.

It does.

It does.

I mean.

Big before the rest of
your brain catches up.

Yeah.

Lainie Libeti: Exactly.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Lainie Libeti: And the
reason, so you've got.

Same thing

Rupert Isaacson: happens when
you're a toddler, by the way.

Lainie Libeti: Exactly.

And so you've got these things
happening at the same time.

And so teens don't have the ability to
project as well consequences and the

thrill of, of receiving an endorphin rush
or an emotional high about something.

And all of these things are
happening from a neurobiological

perspective while they're starting
to psychologically Exactly.

Individuate.

That means their friend groups
are a bigger influence on them.

And, and if you can imagine not being able
to perceive consequences of their actions

or for forecast, what could happen.

As a result, which is, of course,
a consequence, but like what the

forecast could be and how that
could ripple into their lives.

If they don't have that biological
ability, then we need to help

supplement and support them by helping
them reflect in a way that's not

authoritarian, but in partnership of.

Exactly where they are.

We know that they're individuating.

We know how important
their friend groups are.

We know about peer pressures.

We know about all of these, you
know, drugs and, and sex and,

and all of the other, you know,

Rupert Isaacson: producers.

Yeah, basically.

Yeah.

Lainie Libeti: All of these things are
an important part of a teen's life.

Well, it's part of them is
we navigate these journeys.

Yeah, knowing those biological,
you know, not deficiencies, they're

also superpowers in many ways.

They are.

Well, they also have

Rupert Isaacson: a
biological imperative, right?

I mean, it's, it's, the risk is necessary,
you know, because you have to go test

yourself and say, can you go with
your spear into the bush and come back

with a wildebeest and dodge the lions.

And, you are gonna have to get
ready to reproduce the species.

And all of these things are ramping up.

They're not, they're all
there for a reason of course.

But of course, modern, modern
life can get in the way.

But what get Yeah.

When parents find themselves on
the in conflict with this Yeah.

What can they do to not
be in conflict with it?

Lainie Libeti: Well, what I
was gonna say is we also have.

The pressures of cultural fears and
especially coming from 2020 and, and

all of the changes the planet is in
right now, there are, there are these

cultural memes of, of, you know,
fears around how people need to be

and fear people control out of fear.

And if you control, we're not.

Going to the, our teens are not going
to be able to take healthy risks.

Yeah.

Lainie Libeti: So it's going up
against what can parents do first.

They have to be aware of all that's
going around, all that's happening

in their teens development.

They have to have an understanding of it.

If they don't, they alienate the teen and
say, you're irrational, you know, don't

slam the door when, when you walk in the
room, you know, and there's no connection.

My book is all about connection.

Action is the only way to
support a team through all of

these, these changes, right?

And also being aware of the
societal messaging and fears.

That are a part of our reality.

We can't escape them.

We can't escape them.

How do we process those
things in a healthy way?

How do we process them in a way?

That's in alignment with our own values.

We don't want to be controlled.

We want to make decisions.

And take healthy risks and part of
the societal messaging right now

is also preventing those healthy
risks and, and, you know, making

our, our species evolve, right?

We need each generation to evolve.

Rupert Isaacson: If you made it
this far into the podcast, then I'm

guessing you're somebody that, like
me, loves to read books about not

just how people have achieved self
actualization, but particularly

about the relationship with nature.

Spirituality, life, the
universe, and everything.

And I'd like to draw your
attention to my books.

If you would like to read the story
of how we even arrived here, perhaps

you'd like to check out the two New
York Times bestsellers, The Horseboy

and The Long Ride Home, and come on an
adventure with us and see what engendered,

what started Live Free Ride Free.

And before we go back to the
podcast, also check out The Healing

Land, which tells the story of.

My years spent in the Kalahari with the
Sun, Bushmen, hunter gatherer people

there, and all that they taught me, and
mentored me in, and all that I learned.

Come on that adventure with me.

Where in your view does
nature come into this?

Lainie Libeti: I'm sorry, say that again?

Rupert Isaacson: Where in your
view does nature come into this?

Lainie Libeti: I mean, we're talking about
biological development, that is nature.

Rupert Isaacson: Indeed, but people
are not living, for the most part, in

the environment that their biology is.

Lainie Libeti: I thought you
meant nature versus nurture.

Okay, okay, okay, nature.

Oh, such a huge part of this.

Yeah, it's, it's an untouched, um,
what's the word I'm looking for?

System that can teach us.

To, if we can adapt to become more in
alignment with nature, with animals, with,

with, with the, the, with the system of,
of, you know, birth, death growth, you

know, all, all the, all of the ecology of
nature, that if we can, once again, be.

Mirroring those systems versus some
of the artificial systems that our

teens have been, you know, thrust
to in front of, like, we're talking

about the computer where you and,
you know, it's a tool, a tool.

Tools are great.

Video games are great.

I'm not an anti video game person,
but if that is a person's only world,

that becomes their entire biosphere.

Right?

We need to be able to balance nature,
who is the biggest gift and the biggest

teacher to all of this, you know, but
it's not just team go out in nature.

It's family.

What can we do as a family, as a unit,
as a culture, as even society to be

able to, to integrate nature as part of.

our soul, our, our being, our,
our very essence, our presence.

Yeah.

I'm,

Rupert Isaacson: I'm, I'm, I'm
with you a hundred percent.

I feel that one's best.

Shots of family really is to
do stuff in nature together.

That does involve some risk because
nature always inevitably does.

But where you learn to navigate those
because that's what our biology.

I do know though that, you know,
the vast majority of people are not

living that way whether, whether
voluntarily or involuntarily.

If people are not able to

go swim with dolphins, dodge elephants
and train horses as part of their

family culture, what's your formula for?

Using nature like this with teens
and tweens in a way that is more

accessible to people who don't
have a family culture of this.

Lainie Libeti: Well, I mean,
that is one of the reasons why

we created Project World School.

You know, a lot of it is in nature.

A lot of that is the cultural
connection to, to nature, human

connection to the environment.

But this is going to be a little,
this answer is going to be a

little sort of outside of what
you think I'm going to answer.

So, you know, get to nature, make
plans, do it, go have an adventure.

Adventures are so important, but the other
thing is, if you are stuck in a rural

city and you really can't access nature.

You're not going to believe this answer.

Play board games together.

Okay, go

on.

Lainie Libeti: Because
the, the playfulness

If we can access our playfulness
as a family, and you can even find

board games that are based on nature.

And if you want to go down
that path, that's fine.

But what I'm saying is cultivate
a culture within your family where

playfulness is one of the foundations
because through playfulness.

You can access imagination.

You can access creativity, and
you can access problem solving.

And all of those things can be, you know,
part of a really extraordinary experience.

And let me tell you, if you're a family
that plays board games together, when

you get out into nature, it becomes
this adventure like experience, right?

You have the training.

If you're stuck in a rural area, you
have the training to take risks, to

push your luck, to, you know, create
a strategic make a strategic choice.

I love board games, you know, for that.

Were you always into

Rupert Isaacson: board games?

Or was that a later in life thing?

Lainie Libeti: Always, always.

And in fact, part of the family culture of
Miro and I, we traveled with a game bag.

Like, they were such an important
part of our family culture that, yeah,

it's always been a big part of it.

Rupert Isaacson: What's
your game of choice?

Lainie Libeti: Right now?

Right now and

Rupert Isaacson: over time.

And like, and, and, or do
you have games of choice for

particular psychological seasons?

Lainie Libeti: I mean, I probably do.

I'm really immersed in the
board game culture right now

because we own a board game cafe.

Believe it or not.

Yeah.

Lainie Libeti: Yeah.

Wait, my son and I.

I love it.

So six months ago, we opened one
here and in Guanajuato, Mexico, and

it's the only board game cafe and the
central part of of the city and state.

And it's wonderful.

So I'm diving into all these new board
games and different types of strategy.

And my son is making games, which is It's
so amazing to but what is my favorite?

I mean, there's so many, I love social
deduction games like werewolf and, and

secret Hitler and things like that.

I know what a funny,

Rupert Isaacson: but
yeah, I'll go find out.

Lainie Libeti: There's such a secret.

Secret Hitler is a lot of
fun and it's, it's funny.

And you're in Germany right now.

It's, it's

Rupert Isaacson: under the bed.

Lainie Libeti: No, it's you,
everybody creates a role.

You're either a liberal or, or
a fascist and you have to pass.

You know, the game is you go through
the order and there's a president and

a chancellor and you have to vote.

And if the chancellor is the secret role
of Hitler, then, of course, the game is

over and you have all these discussions
and you pass these different you know,

It's a lot of fun, but Werewolf is kind
of like Mafia, and you can play with big

groups of people, and I play these with
teens a lot, and those are wonderful

games, but I also love strategy games,
you know, I love, there is a nature

game that I love it's called Cascadia,
and it's one of my favorite board games

now, Cascadia but I like Cascadia,

Rupert Isaacson: what is
that, tell us about that one?

Lainie Libeti: It's, it's a sort
of like an abstract puzzle game

that you're playing your own board.

You're building environments
that connect different animals,

attract different animals on it.

You know, you've got water areas and
you've got, mountains and savannas and

Rupert Isaacson: ecological
management type thing.

Lainie Libeti: Yeah,
that's exactly what it is.

And you put different animals on them.

So there's hawks and, and
salmon and in the water and

bears and, and foxes and stuff.

So yeah, it's, it's a puzzle game,
but it is ecological management.

So I love that.

It's really

Rupert Isaacson: interesting what you
say about game playing, because I'm,

I'm a great believer in tracking.

You know, a lot of time growing
up hunting and then having lived

with hunting gathering tribes, and
that's always been a big part of

my life and the idea of tracking.

You don't have to be hunting
in order to track tracking

informs hunting, but tracking.

In and of itself is an amazing thing.

But what really, I think as a human,
we are always tracking cause we're,

we're a hunter gatherer species.

So we're also tracking plants.

We're also tracking the weather.

We're also tracking ideas.

We're also tracking the spirit world.

We're also tracking emotions.

We're not just tracking that animal
track right there, but that animal

track right there is where it begins.

And.

I feel that games actually
are an extension of that.

I always have felt that
they're an extension of that.

And they're to some degree an
altered state of consciousness,

because you roleplay, you go into
it, and then you build your empathy.

Which is exactly what you have
to do with hunting and gathering.

You have to become Kudu, or you
have to become Ayahuasca, or

whatever, to know how to handle it.

I was in Austin, Texas about a year ago.

And I wandered into this cafe.

There were all these
people playing board games.

Love it.

And I

Rupert Isaacson: looked around and you
could order a pizza and you could have

a beer and I was like, this is genius.

And I had it in the back of my mind
and I could just see the community

and I could feel the happiness.

You talked about endorphins and dopamine,
you know, but you're also getting oxytocin

with that because it's, you know, and
serotonin because it's, it's social and

you could, you could like eat the good
hormones as you walked into that place.

It was like.

Wow.

And like, I looked around because I'm
always on, you know, psychological

safari because I'm an autism dad.

And I'm like, Oh yeah, like a good
60 percent of the people in here

are on the spectrum and da da da.

And it's community.

I've seen this in other places, like in
the Ren Faire community and the LARPing

community, the live action role play
community and things like this, which are.

Really the same thing.

But the idea of sitting together in
this way, and so it's really interesting

to me that before we hit record,
you're saying, Oh, yeah, my latest

thing, we're got a ballgame cafe.

And of course, of course, Lainey has a
ballgame because she does that curve.

Yeah, of course, she'll then have like
a chain of them, you know, through

the world, you know, by the time we do
our next podcast, probably well, it's

inevitable with you, I think, what gave
you the idea to open a board game cafe?

It's a great idea

Lainie Libeti: Well, because every time
we get to a new country or a new city,

my son and I would always like, look up.

Is there a board game cafe here?

And we've been to board

Rupert Isaacson: game cafes.

How long have they been a thing?

Lainie Libeti: Oh, they've
been around for ages.

Our favorite was in
Thailand in Chiang Mai.

And I'm, we're, 10 years ago, we
found this wonderful board game cafe.

And before we opened up our own
board game cafe, I reached out to the

owner who became a friend of ours.

And he, you know, we had these
wonderful conversations about.

What to do and how to do it.

But yeah, it was just our thing.

We love board games.

So we would always just look up, you know,
we've been to 40 something countries.

You know, we've been around the world.

We didn't just stay in Latin America.

So we've been in Southeast Asia
through Europe into Africa as well.

So, you 16 years has taken
us many, many places.

And well, board game cafes was like, okay.

Japan, board game cafe, cat board game,
wherever we went, it didn't matter.

Rupert Isaacson: And when you go to
them, and it's just the two of you,

would you then automatically fall
in with other people to play with?

Lainie Libeti: Sometimes, yeah,
sometimes because there's,

there are some of them require

Rupert Isaacson: quite a lot
of people to play, right?

Lainie Libeti: Exactly.

One of my son's favorite game is Cosmic
Encounters and it's, we played that

all around the world and you need at
least four people to play that game.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Okay.

So how, when you walk into.

A board game cafe in Casablanca and
you don't know anyone and the guy

says, of all the board game cafes
in all the towns in all the world,

you had to walk into this one.

I had to get that in there.

How do you then break the ice with the
locals, and particularly if there's a

language barrier, to then start playing?

Lainie Libeti: I mean,
it's different every time.

Sometimes there's a table with people,
you know, or you ask the board game.

Cafe, you know, the, the, the person
behind the desk or, or the waitress

or whatever the, the game master.

Yes, them.

You just.

Yeah,

Lainie Libeti: everyone is different.

It's just in our board game cafe.

We have a singles night and we also
run different board game games.

So, you know, like people want to play
Catan and there's only 1 person we've got,

you know, come it's Catan night and we'll
put you together with a group of people.

And then we also, in our board game
cafe, we do a language exchange.

So intercambio, so we play, you know,
Pictionary and all these different

games in both English and Spanish.

So people learning English can
practice and people learning Spanish

can practice with native speakers.

And so, yeah, it's, it's.

It's a lot of fun.

Rupert Isaacson: And who makes the coffee?

Who serves the drinks?

Who makes the food?

Is that all you and Miro?

Just the two of you?

Lainie Libeti: Well, we do
have two employees, but yeah, I

actually cook for the entire cafe.

We have American food.

Yeah.

So yeah, I cook mac and
cheese, chili con carne.

How do

Rupert Isaacson: you have the
time to sit here and talk to me?

And why are you not down at the cafe?

Because we have, we

Lainie Libeti: have employees to do that.

Rupert Isaacson: But it's it must
be also quite a lot of work it what

do you think is the Correlation
between ballgames and mental health

Lainie Libeti: again What I said
about the family culture of being able

to play together the accessing the
playfulness and and I'd say adults

that lose their Instinct to play.

Those are the ones that get sick.

So, from a parent's perspective
and an adult's perspective, it's

important to continue to cultivate
your ability to be playful.

I so

Rupert Isaacson: agree.

I so agree.

What is it they say?

You don't get, you don't stop
playing because you get old, you

get old because you stop playing.

Lainie Libeti: Yeah.

And from the child's perspective, it's
that it's another point of connection.

And then, like I said, all of the
things like imagination, access to

your imagination, access to risk taking
problem solving, creativity, all that

is tied into the play, the gameplay.

Rupert Isaacson: I'm sold.

Yeah.

Okay.

I'm going to go start a board game.

I bet

Lainie Libeti: there's one there.

Yeah, probably.

I'm going to look

Rupert Isaacson: it up, actually.

My local town is Beastbarden.

Let me see.

It's probably hiding in
plain sight somewhere.

It's probably there.

Rupert Isaacson: Board,
game, cafe, Wiesbaden.

There's a hobby store.

Lainie Libeti: Okay.

Does it have a cafe?

Oh,

Rupert Isaacson: no, there is.

Bretspielka.

Lainie Libeti: Go play Cascadia.

Rupert Isaacson: I would
love to go play Cascadia.

I think I'm going to take my kids too.

You should.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, actually,
this is, this is This is, it's

not, it's not a board game cafe.

It's a group of people who meet in cafes.

Interesting.

I don't think anyone's actually,

interesting.

Okay.

I'm going to,

it'll be

Rupert Isaacson: very German.

It'll be very, very rule based.

I'm sure.

Lainie Libeti: Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

And there's some games that
really are, you know, very,

very strict and rule based.

And we have some of those there.

There's a whole a grouping
of games called Euro games.

And so there's certain types of games
that are probably more popular there.

We.

We don't get a lot of call for
the Euro games because we, we in

our cafe usually end up giving and
teaching more of the casual games

to our, our audience, but who knows?

Hopefully they'll get into the Euro games.

What's a

Rupert Isaacson: Euro game exactly?

Lainie Libeti: Well, they take two
or three hours and there's lots

of setup and there's lots of rules
and, and, you know, some of them

are, are worker placement games.

Some of them are, are
resource management games.

They're, they're all different types
of games, but they tend to be quote,

unquote, air quote, serious games.

So I love, I love, I love some
of them, actually, not all

of them, but there's so many.

And you know what?

The biggest board game conference
is in Germany, the Essen.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, ah, is that right?

Lainie Libeti: So it's the, the center of
the board game culture is in your country.

Rupert Isaacson: Good lord.

And have you been to that one?

Lainie Libeti: No.

One day I will.

Rupert Isaacson: Interestingly, Essen
is also where Equitana is, which is

the it'd be in exactly the same place,
I'm sure, which is the, it's probably

the world's biggest equestrian.

Trade fair and i'm off in there.

Yeah.

So, okay.

I'll go play games instead.

Why not?

Lainie Libeti: Yeah Well, if we
end up going to eston, I will

message you and we'll get together

Rupert Isaacson: It may by then not be too
late because it's what time of year is it?

Lainie Libeti: I Don't remember.

Hold on.

I can look it up real fast

Rupert Isaacson: Why are
you looking it up then?

So listeners to get together with
your kids apart from going into the

forest and on safari and do things
like that Go to a Board game cafe.

I like the idea of doing that to not
just sit at home and play board games

because it Gets you out into the city.

It gets you meeting people.

It gets you exposed to different games.

It gets you into a more social
Context I think I'm gonna

start doing this with my kids.

Lainie Libeti: You should it's called
spiel essence and it's in October

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, the
reason I ask is this October.

We'll be moving to Spain But

Lainie Libeti: we'll just have

Rupert Isaacson: to come, we'll just
have to play board games in Andalusia.

Yeah.

Lainie Libeti: Fantastic.

Rupert Isaacson: Ah, okay.

So now you're doing this and you,
you're also, tell me, you've got

the World Schooling Retreats.

Tell me the name of your company and your
project with teens and mental health.

Lainie Libeti: Sure.

So the World Schooling Retreats
are Project World School and

I work with teens online.

I do private coaching and I
teach courses and that's through

transformative Mentoring for teens.

com.

And I actually have a course coming
up where I'm teaching teens to tap

into their passions and purpose.

I'm also teaching mindset
and how to launch a business

that's coming up in February.

So I don't know when this is
going to air, but if people are

interested, please go to my website.

I'm enrolling that.

Rupert Isaacson:
Transformativementoringforteens.

com Project World School And
just tell me the February

February deadline for enrollment.

I haven't

Lainie Libeti: been updated.

It'll probably be somewhere
around the 15th to start the to

launch the the entrepreneur class.

But it's

Lainie Libeti: half mindset, half half
actual hands on launching a project

based on your passions and purpose.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, that to me
actually is one of the most interesting

points because I'm a great believer
that One of the things that has kind

of destroyed the modern family is the
destruction of the family business.

Where is the family farm or the family
or whatever if the family business

is because a family business like a
family restaurant or a family shop

or whatever it Everyone is involved
every you know, it's education.

It's socialization, it's bonding, it's

Business.

Business, it's

Rupert Isaacson: tribal life together,
it's everything, and everyone's

got the sort of joint endeavour.

Yeah.

For the

Rupert Isaacson: greater project,
all working together, and I'm a great

believer in trying to have businesses
with your family and with your kids, but

I don't think it's something which is
on most people's radars, I think that

there's this idea, you know, you've got
to make the money, you send your kid

to school so that your kid can go on
and get a better job than you got, and

blah, blah, blah, and blah, blah, blah,
and it's all rather isolating, Why not

have a family economic unit, which you
could then branch out from, but it's

always there for you if you want it.

Lainie Libeti: Yeah.

My son and I own two businesses together.

So project world school is our
business as well as Chango's

trace, which means tell me about

Rupert Isaacson: Chango's trace.

Lainie Libeti: That's,
that's the board game cafe.

Okay.

Rupert Isaacson: Chongo's monkey, right?

Monkeys?

Trace.

Oh, three monkeys.

Three monkeys.

Three monkeys.

Got it.

Okay.

Why three monkeys?

Lainie Libeti: Well, we wanted,
we wanted a brand that embodied

playfulness and monkeys do.

And also the term, so Mono is monkey
in Spanish, but Chongo is how you say

Monkey in Spanish, as well as you say,
dude, or like, ah, that thing happened.

So it's kind of an expression as well.

And at first our brand was, but
then we just started calling it.

I

Rupert Isaacson: got it.

Amazing.

This has been really inspirational.

I would say that, you know, a thing
there that really is perhaps not

been made explicit in this podcast.

And so I'd like to bring it sort
of into the clear forefront.

Is this business of why not
create a business with your team?

Why not create a business with your kid?

Because it so many things fall into
perspective around that, right?

You know, when emotions and
all of those other things start

exploding all over the place.

But yet you've still got to open
the cafe and serve the customer.

It's good to have that focus, you
know, or what the crop does need to

go in the ground regardless, or we've
still got to feed the horses right now.

Let's argue about it while we feed the
horses, but we got to go feed the horses.

And these things take you out of yourself.

To some degree.

So it provides perspective taking and you
were talking about emotional intelligence.

It's so interesting how emotional
intelligence is so often tied

up with economic intelligence.

Because of course, bad emotional
intelligence makes for bad

economic outcomes, right?

And

the

Rupert Isaacson: opposite
is true in the good way.

Where's it going next for you?

Or what's the next project do you think?

Lainie Libeti: I don't know.

They always find me and things,
I don't know, things unfold.

I'd like to write a second book
about, Oh, tell me the name

Rupert Isaacson: of your book
again so people can, yes.

Lainie Libeti: It's Seen,
Heard and Understood.

Rupert Isaacson: Seen,
Heard and Understood.

Lainie Libeti: Parenting and Partnering
with Teens for Greater Mental Health.

Rupert Isaacson: And
Partnering with Teens.

What's the last bit

Lainie Libeti: for greater mental health

Rupert Isaacson: for greater mental health

Lainie Libeti: and also my son wrote the
foreword to the book It's it's wonderful.

It's so so touching what he wrote.

It's so lovely

Rupert Isaacson: and
where's where's he at?

Okay, you you are running the business
together the businesses together

Has he got other things he wants
to go off and do at this point or

is he actually pretty content right
now running this Or both or what?

Lainie Libeti: Well, he's also a
writer, but he also just started

developing his own board games.

So he's really into that right now.

I mean, it's and I think we just played
two of his games in the cafe with.

Other customers.

And I really think he could publish this.

They're, they're so strong.

He really has a grasp on game theory and
playability and weight of game, you know,

weight of pieces and cards and such.

He's, he's got it.

Somebody's got to develop these games.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Okay.

So the next business is gaming.

Lainie Libeti: Yeah, he's so, I
mean, he, you know, he's 25, 20

to be 26 in just a couple months.

He doesn't have to have a
business with his mother.

He doesn't have to be in partnership
with me, but the fact that he chooses

to really says something about
this kind of partnership, parenting

and, and the joy of connection,

Rupert Isaacson: right?

Partnership parenting.

Lainie Libeti: Yeah.

So that's, oh, that was going
to be my next book will be

on partnership parenting.

Rupert Isaacson: Partnership parenting.

Wonderful.

Now, people can find you through your
websites, transformativementoringforteens.

com and project world school.

Can people also reach
out to you on an email?

I'm sure lots of people listening
to this will have questions for you.

Lainie Libeti: Sure, sure.

How can they

Rupert Isaacson: reach you?

Lainie Libeti: Either of those
sites have contact forms.

I also, you can find me on Facebook.

Just look me up.

You can find me lots of places.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Project World School on Facebook.

All right.

Perfect.

Well, we've hit just
past the two hour mark.

This has been amazing.

I'm so glad I got to,
I got to learn a lot.

It's great.

It's a wonderful thing
about doing the podcast.

It's like, I get to ask everybody
everything I want to ask.

And I go away, oh, that was a good idea.

Oh, I think I'm going to do that.

That's a good idea.

I'm going to do that as well.

So thank you so much.

I mean, this has been
massively enlightening.

And yeah, for people who are just
wondering how to break out of these

negative patterns that I think they're
so easy to fall into in familial

environments, but they don't have to
be, I think, I think a story like yours

is, it's What's so inspiring about it
is you probably run into a little bit

of the same problems that I used to run
into where people would say, Oh, you

saying that you're like, you're going
to cure, you know, autism by going to

see shamans in Mongolia and ride horses.

Like, no, of course I'm not saying that.

But what I am saying is when the adventure
in front of you comes up to do whatever

that adventure is, if that's what your
kid really wants to do, follow your kid.

And I've always found that if I do
that, everything else will sort of fall

into place around it as, but as long as
it's my agenda, things get complicated.

And I think what you've really done is
you've really shone a light on that.

So you don't need to bugger off to
Peru, you know, and give up your job.

It could be.

As simple as going and playing games
with your kid and starting a bit of

a business together or something.

It could be a grand adventure.

It could be a small adventure,
but it's still an adventure.

I think that's and as you said,
you're talking about playfulness

and the importance of that.

What is adventure and
curiosity, but play very

Lainie Libeti: much.

Yeah, well said.

Thank you.

I'm

Rupert Isaacson: inspired.

I think we need to work together.

I think I think that's the next thing.

I think I'll be emailing you.

Lainie Libeti: We'll do something.

We've always been threatening
of doing something since we met.

Rupert Isaacson: Yes, indeed.

Indeed.

It's time.

It's time.

Thank you so much, Lanius.

It's been absolutely brilliant.

It was fun.

Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed
today's conversation as much as I did.

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