Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.

Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New
York Times bestselling author of

The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.

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So now let's jump in.

Alright lads, this one is a real
treat for me, because I've got one

of my oldest friends sitting on Zoom.

Tom Parsons.

Tom I have known for 40 years, I think?

So clearly, obviously before, since
before I was born, or he was born.

And I've watched Participated in and
cheered on the events of Tom's live

free, ride free life decade by decade.

And still am.

And I wanted him on the show because,
as you know, I don't always want

people who are well known here.

I don't want there to be this idea
that to lead a self actualised,

fulfilled or successful life, that
somehow requires some public thing.

It doesn't.

We know this.

It's much more personal than that.

And so how do people fulfill their

soul needs through the course of
living the lives that are quite normal?

You know, we, we go to school, maybe
we go to university, we get this job,

we get that job, we have, we meet
someone, we have kids, then suddenly

we're drowning in nappies for 500
years and then we look up and we're 80.

And that is, I think, the
story of many of our lives.

However, what happens in between is

Tom is, I think, the
epitome of that for me.

What has driven Tom is art history, but
in ways that are maybe somewhat unusual.

And this has brought him to, at the point
of retirement, really now a whole new

career with certain types of festival
and certain types of production and

encouragement of the arts with youth.

And the next 40 years are going
to be as interesting, if not

more so, as the last 40 years.

So here is a self actualised
live free life, live free

life, live free ride free life,

right on a plate for all of
us to eat from and enjoy.

So, Tom Parsons, thank you
for coming on the show.

Tom Parsons: My pleasure.

Thank you.

Thanks, Rude.

Nice to, nice to

Rupert Isaacson: see you.

Now what none of you can see, actually you
probably can see because we're going to

be putting this up on YouTube these days,
is you might be forgiven for thinking

that I got Bill Nighy on the show.

And I couldn't actually get Bill Nighy,
so I got Tom to stand in, because

he looks exactly like Bill Nighy.

And I think that Bill Nighy actually
has been secretly following Tom around

for the last few decades, copying him,
and turning that into his acting career.

Because I don't know anyone
who, I don't think even Bill

Nye is as Bill Nye e e as Tom.

So, Tom, talk to us now about
why you love art history so much.

How did that start with you as a kid?

Where were you born and brought up?

How did it enter your life,
and at what point did you know,

Yeah, that's what I'm gonna do.

I don't know how I'm gonna do
it, but that's what I'm gonna do.

Tom Parsons: Okay, thank you.

I was born and brought up in a

comfortable house in, in southwest London.

I guess we had, you know, we had some nice
paintings or posters and things at home.

I went to the Tate at 15 in rather
a sort of hormonal state thought and

enjoyed it, didn't understand anything
I was looking at, but enjoyed that.

We didn't do art history at school.

I ended up going to university to study
English and got very drunk one night and

The next day, I was in such a state that I
knew that I couldn't really function, so I

ended up, I thought, I know, I'll go to an
art history lecture because I'm not taking

the subject, I'm vaguely interested in
it, but more to the point, it'll be dark

and warm and I know I can fall asleep.

So I went to this lecture.

And I did fall asleep, but when
I woke up, the slide that was

on the screen was a a, a Rothko.

And I, I remembered I'd seen this
or seen a painting by Rothko in the

Tate and thought it was rubbish.

It was just a big rectangle.

Anyone could do that.

So I listened, I was intrigued to
see what the lecturer was gonna

say, and I, I had a sort of you
know, wrote to Damascus moment.

I, it was.

I converted on the spot to believing,
still do believe, Rothko is rather

amazing, completely amazing.

Anyway, wobbled out of the lecture,
went to my department, the English

department, and and said, please, can
I change my degree to art history?

So I ended up doing both.

And Left University, and I suppose at that
point decided, yeah, I'll try to make a

living out of out of what I love, which,
which by that point was European art.

So, so yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, let's
get, let's, there's a couple of

things I want to ask you there.

Okay, so Rothko, those of you
who don't know Rothko, can you

describe Rothko please, Tom?

Tom Parsons: Okay, Rothko is a New York
painter who died in the early 70s he's

part of the abstract expressionist school,
and he painted large scale well, his

characteristic style that he reached in
his maturity are large scale abstracts.

Very simple on, on first viewing,
sort of huge, rectangular,

moody, pulsating Blobs of color.

And and he made, he claimed for
them A sort of spiritual eloquence.

He never went that much further
in terms of trying to explain.

But but he did, he did
make certain assertions.

And you can, you can agree or not but I'm,
I'm one of the ones who, who do agree that

they have that sort of power and impact.

And yeah, he's, he's good.

Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting
though, because I don't know

you so much as an abstract dude.

I know you much more as a high renaissance
art, baroque art art historian, you

know, I've, I've been with you in
Italy and I want to go into this

and the story of art and why it's so
amazing and why it helps us understand.

who we are and why we are and what we
might do wrong again in the future.

But you also said something about a road
to Damascus moment there and conversion.

One of the best ways I ever
heard you describe yourself

was as a died again Christian.

Talk to us a little bit about
you were that moody adolescent,

then you got religion, then you
went off and did some interesting

stuff before university, and then.

You changed a bit, and why?

Talk us through that.

Tom Parsons: Okay yeah, I did
have a very sort of Christian

phase in my later teenage years.

Why?

Because I

Rupert Isaacson: know you
weren't brought up that way.

Tom Parsons: It was a, on the one
hand, I think it was actually a form

of rebellion and because it was quite
a, it was a sort of evangelical form

of, of the Christian faith, it was sort
of, so it was, In, in, in one sense it,

you know, it was sort of radical and,
and ultra committed and, and so on.

Anyway, so there was that aspect to it.

It, but it also simultaneously
fulfilled a a, you know, a kind of

teenage longing for, for the ideal.

And And on the back of that, I went,
I had a year, a gap year, a year

off between school and university
and I went off to a phenomenal

place as a volunteer in Hong Kong.

And I met, I, I volunteered for a woman.

Who ran a rehab center for heroin
addicts Hong Kong Chinese, all

ages, all backgrounds, but all, all
of whom had in common that their

lives had been destroyed by heroin.

And she took them off the streets
and, and put them back together.

And I, as I say, I worked
there for six months.

Yeah, I, it was that was,
that was extraordinary.

And I suppose, I suppose the,
well, I don't know something about,

I don't know, what I realized there,
and I realize, I suppose there's a

common thread through my life, is
that for me, I ended up teaching

but the, the mechanism is similar.

In other words, When you put
yourself in a position where you are,

as it were, giving to other people,
whether it's in a classroom or

a rehab centre in Hong Kong,

you get so much back.

And I and I So there's a sort of
selfishness in, in in my motivation,

there always has been or rather it's
just a circle if you give you get back,

and that's, that's a good way to live.

Rupert Isaacson: I remember a story
you told me about that time in

Hong Kong a bit of a life or death
situation, where, involving oil.

Tom Parsons: Oh yeah, okay.

Rupert Isaacson: Please tell that story
and what that left you, what insights

did you gain from that experience?

Tom Parsons: I think the
story is, it was the only time

I've ever felt threatened I think whilst
I was there, but the, I was in this, in

this flat, we, there were what sort of,
I made About 20 of us living in a, an

apartment in a high rise in, in Hong Kong.

And and my, my role there was, you know,
I was the, the, the, the sort of odd

job boy really just doing menial stuff.

But anyway, one evening I should
explain, all, all of the cooking was

done by the by the guys, the guys.

Cause they knew how to cook.

I certainly didn't know how
to cook and I certainly didn't

know how to cook Chinese food.

So they did all the cooking.

I had no idea what I was
eating half the time.

I did recognize bits of pig head every
now and again, but anyway, whatever.

But one, one evening there was.

There was a row in the kitchen and I
was the only, I think I was the only

volunteer at that moment in the flat.

And I went into the kitchen to try and
sort this thing out, whatever it was.

And the, the guy who was really,
really cross and angry about

whatever it was turned and he was
holding a wok with smoking oil.

It was very, very hot.

And he, he was threatening
to throw it all over me.

And at that moment, one of the
other guys came up and just

put his hand on my shoulder.

I in, I think and just sort of said,
Tom, just step back, step back and.

So I did but I was quite shaken by that.

It was the only, as I said, the only
time there was any, ever, ever any

sort of threat of violence to me.

And yeah, I was a bit shaken at the time.

It, it passed.

It was fine, actually.

The, the, the desire amongst the guys in
that flat to straighten out their lives.

overrid or overrode such moments.

And so, you know, I was, I was
immensely privileged to unfortunate

to be, to be part of that.

Rupert Isaacson: Those kinds of early
experiences do you feel that they're

actually quite important in the life?

Of a young person.

I'm, I'm, in terms of understanding
your own resilience and

understanding perspective taking.

How do you think, I can think of
similar things that happened to me, you

know, at that age and over the years.

And I can sort of see how
I've drawn on those things.

I, I, I believe now for many,
many reasons, our youth, we, they

live in a slightly more sheltered.

universe than we might have done.

Things were very different
back in the eighties.

What do you think an experience like
that did for you as you became an adult?

It's your subconscious.

Tom Parsons: The whole experience that
my experience there was, well, actually

one of the things that's relevant is
that I think I remember after about

three months there, I was aware that
other friends of mine were, you know,

partying in India or Australia, wherever
they were, or even back in London.

And I wasn't, and I was very, my,
my, my life there was, you know,

very limited, very, very strictly
organized and, and, and so on.

I had no, I had, I had
one, one day off a week.

And after about three months,
I remember saying to Jackie,

who's the lady who ran the place.

So Jackie, I'm finding
this really quite hard.

I got this urge to go.

I still want to go
traveling and, and so on.

And she said, well, look.

You know, you're a volunteer,
you can go, you can leave anytime

you like, anytime you like, but

I just want to remind you that you, when
you wrote to ask if you could come, you,

you said you would stay for six months.

And I said, yeah, I know, I know.

And, and I know that I ought to,
I know I ought to stay because

that's what I said I would do.

I'm just.

I'm just saying, she said,
well, look, you are free.

My problem was that I had a ticket, my
flight, my flight back, I'd prepaid,

I didn't have the money to extend it.

Anyway, I went off, had a think,
went back to see her the next day and

said, no, of course I'm going to stay.

I can't, I can't, I
can't break my promise.

I can't, I won't be able
to live with myself.

So, and I think about a week later.

She came back and said right, we're going
to pay for the extension for your ticket.

So that did, so I actually, I
did get the opportunity to go, I

went off into China at the end.

So it was, it, that, so
yeah, I, what did I learn?

I just learned, yeah, if you make
a promise, you, you stick to it.

And for your own, so that you can
look yourself in, in the mirror.

Rupert Isaacson: You've spent now.

Some decades working with kids who
were your age, more or less when

you had to make that decision.

So I might circle back to it later when
I met you, which was at university, after

you'd come back from that you were a
year above me, so you'd already, you were

already a year in before I showed up.

And I seem to recall that we didn't really
become close friends until my second year.

So you were already, you
know, a couple of years.

Past that experience.

And of course, I knew you as

Maybe not quite so
straight laced a fellow.

What changed?

From that evangelical Christian thing.

Why

Rupert Isaacson: did it change?

But what did it leave you with
that you still draw on to this day?

Tom Parsons: Okay.

The

going to university, I realized, I
suppose I, no, I very consciously

realized I could, I didn't know anyone
there and you know one at, at university.

So on arrival, I sort of, I, I realized,
well, my God, I could be anyone.

I could, I could become
anyone that I, that I choose.

And I, I certainly had, if you
like, intellectual misgivings about

about the Christian path I had
been following and So it wasn't

at all difficult to kind of park,

to park my, my faith at
all, no, that was great.

Because it meant all kinds of
activities I'd, I'd not allowed

myself were, were available.

And that, that was all very
exciting and, you know, indulgent

and so on, that was great.

But what I kept was a, I sort
of, you know, kept the idealism.

The idea, yeah, the ideals that, that

got rid of the dogma was
quite a good deal, I think.

Rupert Isaacson: To keep the ideals
but get rid of the dogma, that's nice.

What are the ideals?

Tom Parsons: The ideals are of

love, forgiveness

the, the, the ideal of, of, of,

oh God, you know, living for
something which is bigger than you.

Service.

Yes, but bearing in mind that
I had worked out that if you do

that, you get a huge amount back.

So, I don't want, I don't
want this to sound Is

Rupert Isaacson: that necessarily wrong?

I mean, one, one has that No,

Tom Parsons: it's not wrong at

Rupert Isaacson: all.

Spirituality presumably is an
ecosystem like anything else, right?

Tom Parsons: It's not wrong at all.

I just don't want, I it's, it's
a rather beautiful circuit that

feeds, that feeds everyone.

Rupert Isaacson: Also, a
lot of the art that you take

people to see is religious art.

You know, I've been with you in,
you know, the Renaissance art is,

half of it is religious and half
of it's allegorical, you know.

Do you feel that that early ardour that
you had, it gives you an insight into

when you're explaining the, Emotion behind

Tom Parsons: these things.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah, no doubt.

No doubt.

And I

interesting actually, I don't
know all of that, all of all of

that time I spent reading the good
book has, you know, paid me back,

Rupert Isaacson: As Because you know all
the stories that are in the pictures.

Tom Parsons: I know the stories, but,
and I have a sense of, I have my own

sense of what, of what they mean.

Yes.

And what they may have meant to
a Renaissance artist or the, or

the viewers in Renaissance times.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

I think that's invaluable to help people
put themselves in the mindset of, not

just maybe who the painter was, but
who the people were who We're seeing

that painting all that sculpture.

All right, so we're at university
and I remember some things

Because I was such a diligent student I
was working so hard of course I I couldn't

really spare much time for Noticing other
things that other people went on because

I had my nose in my books so much But
I do remember a few small things like

I remember we went to university in
York by the way listeners and in York

York's very beautiful medieval town.

It's still got a wall medieval wall
around it and everything inside that

wall is somewhat of a museum piece.

And there's a big cathedral
called York Minster.

I seem to remember you climbing
York Minster scaffolding

one night, one frosty night.

You know,

Rupert Isaacson: what I've always
found intriguing about you is

you're my tweedy friend that
wears suits and to some degree

follows the societal rules.

Except when you don't.

Why did you climb the

scaffolding of York Minster?

Which is a huge building, very dangerous.

Talk to me about that side of you.

You also were going running up and
down from London on this ancient old

motorbike that was total deathtrap.

And one, I guess what I'm trying to
say, I'm trying to pay you a compliment.

Is you, I think are one of the
most insanely physically brave

people I know, but you pull it
out at really strange moments.

Why, what's going on with that?

And.

How does that help with art,
joy, expression, fulfilment?

Why is it important to have this
side of oneself, do you think?

Tom Parsons: Yeah, okay, the, I
mean, I did, I did climb up the

scaffold wall around the back of
the minster and That was great fun.

It was really stupid.

I wouldn't do it now.

And yeah, the motorbike oh, goodness me.

Anyway, no, there's obviously, there's
a, there's a, there's a part of me, which

still needs, I suppose, to do you know,
well, stupid slash unconventional things.

Despite actually, yeah,
quite a conventional.

Lifestyle as a, I suppose
it's a release, but

Rupert Isaacson: yeah, well,
you say it's a release.

Is it, it's a release from what

Tom Parsons: I haven't climbed up
anything quite like that recently.

No, it's a, it's a test, isn't it?

It's sort of, can I,
let's see what I can do.

It

Rupert Isaacson: where I'm going with this

is

Rupert Isaacson: you've, you've
had a lot of, we're going to

talk going to this in a minute.

I've had to spend the last decades.

Doing a lot of pastoral care, people
who were the age that you were

when you were off to Hong Kong and
China and climbing up York Minster.

This idea of, I, I, I, I'm a great
believer that particularly when

you're young, you need risk, you
need it like you need oxygen.

In order to, like a plant needs
sunlight in order to grow at

the same time, it is risky.

We're hunter gatherers, we're supposed to
at a certain point take the spear and go

into the bush and see if we can come back
with a wildebeest while dodging the lions.

And if we don't do that, we may be don't
achieve certain life skills, but we

also got to stay alive while we do it.

And you, you've been in this interesting
position in the last few years of,

of, of trying to help people in those
years who are probably having that need

navigate also while being responsible
for them and, you know, staying within

the legalities and all of that stuff.

It's a, it's a very tricky
line to tread whether we're

doing it personally or whether.

You know you're responsible for others.

Talk to me a little bit about that,
because I feel it relates to self

fulfillment, it also relates to art.

But just talk to me a little bit
about that, from your experience

personally, with your own three
boys, and all the kids who've been

under your care this last 30 years.

This thing about risk, this thing
about challenge, this thing about

rule breaking, why is it so important?

Tom Parsons: Okay.

The I, yes.

Okay.

I, I ended up for 20 odd
years as a working as a, as a,

the term is housemaster.

It's basically a pastoral
role in a boarding

Rupert Isaacson: school.

He did actually work
in Hogwarts, listeners.

Yes.

And Directly under Dumbledore.

Tom Parsons: And so a lot of
that, so I spent a lot of time.

to teenagers as often as not, it was
when they were in trouble because

they'd broken whichever rule it was.

Obviously, if you've done a little bit
of that yourself then, you know, you

can, you can relate, you can relate
to the, to, to, to those who've,

who've, who've made their own mistakes.

And yeah, you know, those
mistakes are useful.

They, yeah, my, my own moments of
madness certainly helped me understand,

understand, or yeah sympathize with those
who I was actually having to admonish.

And so, yeah, I was able to, I think,
I was able to come across as someone

who, who understood whilst at the same
time saying, well, that, you know,

yeah, you're gonna, you know, here are
the, there are school rules, la la la,

you're going to have to suck up the,
whatever the sanction is and, and, you

know, and let's, let's learn from this.

That sort of thing.

Yeah, so all of that very useful.

I suppose my own slightly ambiguous
relationship with authority, you know,

because on the one hand I do conform, on
the other hand, it's sort of, that helped

in terms of being being able to listen
to a student's you know, when they were

letting off steam and angry with the
system, I could, you know, I get that.

Anyway, yeah, it was that, as I say, that.

a slightly ambiguous attitude.

was helpful.

Rupert Isaacson: After
university you went and

worked for and still do a company run by
friends of ours called Art History Abroad.

And very quickly started taking large
groups of people, not much younger than

yourself, around Italy on a sort of
modern day version of the Grand Tour.

Venice, Florence, Rome, the
great works, the great culture.

Suddenly, you've got A dozen or more kids
all avidly rule breaking all over Italy,

you're keeping them alive, keeping them
safe, but also reveling with them and

sort of showing them a bit how to revel.

Revel responsibly.

Ish.

And exposing them to

this type of culture of art, the
love of art, the beauty of art.

I remember when I first heard
about AHA, Art History Abroad,

I was pretty sceptical.

I thought, well, these are just the
sons and daughters of the privileged,

going off and doing the Grand Tour,
which is something that has existed

in, You know, Western culture for
the privileged scions of European

society for a few hundred years.

Okay, you know, that's good because
then you get people like Goethe coming

out of it writing poems and you get
people like Byron coming out of it

writing poems and great, we have
these poems and that's wonderful.

But, you know, is it really the same
as Going and working in a heroin

addicted place in Hong Kong or where's
the value of it comparative to that?

but then when I actually saw AHA operate
firsthand and I we had Nick Ross on our

mutual friend who runs it that company
on this podcast so people listening go

and listen to Nick Ross and his views
on why exposure to this kind of art is

actually very good for creating kind
of compassionate adults, particularly

out of people who are going to be
decision makers and people who are

going to be in authority to some degree.

Why, why, why does it make them
actually better softer people?

And I sort of observed this at work.

I saw how you and that team took
People who could be, have turned into

really arrogant arseholes and allowed
the humanities to humanize them.

It was, I saw it work every time and
there's a sort of alumni of people

who went through that AHA multi week.

bonding experience who I Still know
are this network of people who actually

do a lot of good in the world It's a
really interesting phenomenon and I

think that aesthetics it's an overlooked

I don't want to say virtue, I don't
want to say quality, I want to say

perhaps even necessity for the human
soul, in terms of gentling it somehow.

Give me your thoughts on that.

Why does art matter so much?

Why does exposure to art and
architecture matter so much?

Because I do think it does.

Tom Parsons: Okay, I taught on those
courses abroad in Italy with, as you say,

with a sort of a privileged education.

At the same time I was teaching
in the National Gallery in

the Tate Gallery in London.

Same sort of job actually, which
was basically taking younger

groups around those collections.

And in that, and in those cases, it
was not the independent school crowd.

It was.

You know, ordinary kids.

And the,

in effect pitched,
pitched in the right way.

I, I remember, actually I
remember something Nick saying

to me years and years ago, right
at the beginning of it all.

Just pointing out that our culture and
this was, this was true 30 years ago.

It's more true now.

More than ever.

Anyway, our culture is, is
an intensely visual one.

Therefore, actually we all are, without
necessarily realizing it extremely

sensitive to visual information.

And we're, we're, we're
fluent, we're articulate.

It's a, it's a language that we
yeah, that, that we're fluent in,

even if, even if we're not sort of
conscious of the fact, so use that,

use that as a, as a, as a way in.

So that's one thing.

Secondly so even in
other words, even if a.

You know, you're, you're
showing a group of 15 year olds

from you know, from a, a, a,

who've never been to the National
Gallery, you're showing them a 15th

century painting, actually there
are they'll be able to read it.

They can, they can read shape, color,
and design because of advertising and

you can, so that's, that's a way in.

Then the second way in is, is through
stories either the story that's being

told or a story relating to the artist.

Third, third, you can, you can always
hook, get people to listen to you if you

talk either about violence or about sex.

And both, both of those things are pretty

Rupert Isaacson: Crashers and blowjobs.

Yeah.

It's all stories.

Tom Parsons: Yeah.

Endemic to, to the to the stories
that, that animate European art anyway.

So that, those are your ways in.

And from there, actually, you
then quite quickly arrive at

conversations about About big
stuff, about, about the important

things about life, death suffering
meaning purpose, moral truth.

So, so whether I was doing that in,
in, in Italy, in, in the, you know,

beautiful surroundings, Florence or
Rome or wherever, or in a gallery in

London, it was, different audiences,
but that was the, as I say visual, if

you like, visual literacy leading to

discussion, conversation,
thought, and argument about

about stuff that's important.

And, and that's, that's
rather a, rather a You think

Rupert Isaacson: in particular
that the number of pictures

of the passion that people get
exposed to when they go and see.

Particularly Renaissance art.

Do you think that does
something to the brain?

You know, some people would argue,
God, all these pictures of a tortured

man being tortured to death, you
know, why are we allowing our kids

to see these violent, violent images?

I mean, he's being properly
tortured to death in one of the

nastiest ways you possibly can.

There it is right there.

You walk past it every day outside the
Catholic church as you, you know, oh

look, he's up there being crucified again.

To the point we've become numb to it.

Also, but at the same time I think
that a lot of the, well, I have

found that a lot of the depictions
of that art, when they're done really

beautifully, the idea of universal
suffering somehow really comes through.

Do you have a is there a picture that
you have, or sculpture, that you've

consistently found that when you
bring those young people in front

of it, you sort of see them go, you
sort of see the heart crack open,

you see, and you know, Now they're
beginning to understand compassion.

Like,

are there certain images that you.

That you can spring to mind,
that, that, that we, and maybe

ones we should know about.

Tom Parsons: I would say Masaccio's
Trinity, in Santa Maria Novella

in, in Florence, as a crucifixion.

Tell

Rupert Isaacson: us that slowly
for, for people that can't

follow Italian names, so well.

Okay,

Tom Parsons: so Masaccio.

Masaccio?

Masaccio, masaccio?

Yeah, M A S A C C

Rupert Isaacson: I O.

Well, I could do with a bit of
a Masaccio right now, I've got

my Tension in the shoulders.

Miso.

Okay.

Tom Parsons: Yeah.

And he, he painted a, a crucifixion.

It's a, it's a fresco, so it's painted
onto a, onto a wall in a, in a church.

The church is holy Mary, new center,
Maria Novella, Uhhuh and it's in where?

In Florence.

Okay.

And when was it painted?

1426.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so it's
15th century, so 600 years old.

Tom Parsons: And

Rupert Isaacson: it

Tom Parsons: is and it's a very,
it's a very early example of, of,

Rupert Isaacson: I'm going
to look it up on my phone as

Tom Parsons: you're talking.

Rupert Isaacson: Go on.

Tom Parsons: Renaissance art.

It's one of the first one of the
earliest examples of a European artist

demonstrating mastery of perspective.

And so in that technical respect,
it's, it's of great historical

significance, but more than, more than
that is the way in which Masaccio has

employed geometry because Perspective.

When you arrange your diagonals to
meet at a vanishing point to create the

illusion of three dimensional space or
depth it's basically a geometric technique

and Masaccio has used geometry as a way,
not only of creating the illusion of, of

space, of three, three dimensions, which
is, You know, which still fascinates

us, it's magnetic, you know, we're still
doing it with, with, with VR but anyway,

back so there's, there's that sort of
technical sort of tour de force aspect of

that painting but more to the point, or on
top of that, he's used, if you like, the

language of geometry as a way of painting.

expressing visually what I would call the,
or relating or linking the language of

geometry with the the sort of theological
story that he's, that he's telling.

And in this particular
picture, it's the crucifixion.

You've got God the Father standing
behind and holding the arms of the cross.

So it's not a description of what
actually happened, it's a, it's an

allegorical portrayal of the crucifixion.

And God the Father's not even
looking, he's looking straight

out, not even looking at you,
he's looking over your head.

And it's as if the it's, to my mind at
least, anyway, it's, it's as if What

mass is communicating is, is this, that
the, that the message of salvation,

which Christ's sacrifice on the cross
made real and available to those who

choose to believe is forever is eternal.

And

similarly, if you like, the,
the, the axioms of mathematics

in within their own terms are.

You know, eternally true,
two plus two equals four, it

always will, it always did.

And, and Masaccio's put these
two things together to give that

message extraordinary impact.

And it's,

it's sort of deliberately
absolutely unemotional.

Deliberately so, and, and all
the more powerful for that.

So, yeah, that's, that's
a work which tends to.

Tends to work every time.

I would say

Rupert Isaacson: it's, it's interesting.

I'm reading up on, I, I've been
looking at the painting on my

phone while you've been talking.

It's beautiful, of course.

But ma Macio, M-A-S-A-C-C-I-O
is a nickname.

it's a nickname.

Do you want I, I, now
I've read what it means.

Do you want to say, tell
people what it means?

Tom Parsons: Yeah, it means slovenly Tom.

Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: clumsy Tom or messy Tom.

Yeah,

Tom Parsons: yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

Messy Tom's crucifixion.

Clumsy Tom's crucifixion.

I love it.

And I think that's one of the things I
love about the way you and Nick often

bring these paintings to life is, you
know, we get a complicated sounding name.

We go through this with
classical music as well.

There'll be an Italian
name or a German name.

And what you don't know is that
That kind of means old socks in, you

know, German or something like that.

And it, it humanizes everything.

Yeah.

So suddenly it's clumsy Tom's crucifixion.

And then the other thing, which
is so amazing is that he only,

he didn't live very long, he
only lived to be about 26 or so

Tom Parsons: right.

Rupert Isaacson: As you know, if
you followed any of my work, I'm

an autism dad and we have a whole
career before this podcast in helping

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We really want to know.

We really want to help people like
me, people like you, out there

live their best life, to live
free, ride free, see what happens.

And then you, you look at what people
like that did in their lifetimes.

And you think, well, how did, how did,
how did you, the son of an innkeeper.

No money behind you Having to then
go and find a bit of apprenticeship

here and apprenticeship there and
live on your wits How did you have

time to develop skills to that degree?

I've often wondered about this with
musicians as well from the past Given how

much effort had to go into just staying
alive, you know, and then I look at

myself procrastinating over work And I've
lived decades longer than a lot of these

people, because we do live longer now.

It's a bit humbling, isn't it?

To say, wow, you could actually, if
you put your mind to it, you can do a

whole lot more than you think you can.

Okay, so that's it.

That one's in.

You have to take a trip to get there.

The kids from the local schools that
you've been taking around London for

years into those free collections, which
are such an amazing resource, anyone

can go see them anytime free of charge.

Is there a painting in the
National Gallery in London

that we should all go see?

Look at that.

You've also known is like that, that
people stop in front of the young

people stop in front of, and even
that, and effectively kind of have

to come out from under their hoodies
and give it up for the human spirit.

Like, is there again a particular
picture which you say we should all

actually, if we're listening from the
UK, turn our cars around and drive

straight to the Nat Gal and go look at.

Tom Parsons: There are loads,

loads and loads.

The one,

the one that.

I would mention now, because it's
possibly a little bit less well known,

is by Bellini, a Venetian artist,
1505, and it's quite a small painting,

it's called the Madonna of the Meadow.

Rupert Isaacson: I'm
looking it up as you speak.

Madonna of the Meadow, Bellini.

Okay.

Tom Parsons: And so it's, it's
actually a very, you know, it's a

very modest, it's a modest work.

Not painted for a public space.

It's too small.

It would have been a painted for,
we don't know who, who paid for it.

But it would have gone into a sort
of wealthy Venetian household.

And.

Oh, I love it for many, many reasons.

Not least actually, because Bellini's
such an old man when he painted it.

It's, it's he's in his eighties and he's
taken on a new medium, which is oil paint.

It was oil painting's

Rupert Isaacson: not around before
that, or he himself wasn't using

Tom Parsons: one of, he's one of the
first Italians to start using oil.

What were people using before oil?

They were using paint where
you mix pigments with egg,

so it's known as egg tempera.

But the, basically the, the Northern
Europeans pioneered a different type of

paint where you're mixing the pigment
with oil, and it's much more flexible.

It's, it's very slow to dry, but
but, but much, much more flexible.

Anyway It came through, through
sort of trade connections between

the Netherlands and Venice.

Bellini would have sort
of found out about oil.

And what I rather love is that, you know,
in his old age, he says, right, great.

Yeah, I'll, I'll start experimenting.

And so he does anyway, he produces this
picture and it is of, it's Mary seated.

in front of a landscape.

The landscape is Venetian,
is the Venetian mainland.

So, it's a, as it were, a contemporary
landscape for, for Bellini.

It's got nothing to do with
Palestine or the Middle East.

And she's got the Christ child in her lap.

And she's, And he's asleep and she's
looking down at him and got her hands

sort of, fingers sort of pressed together
in, in prayer, look very thoughtful.

Anyway behind her, so to, to the
left, there's a, a tree, no leaves,

and a big black carrion bird
sitting in, in the top of the tree.

And so basically you, all you do is you,
you sort of say to the class who are

looking at it, you say talk to them about
the tree and the bird, and it's, it's a

crow or a raven, and what do they eat?

Oh, they eat carrion.

What's that?

It's, it's things that are dead.

And you say, okay, look, look
back at the Christ child.

The Christ child is asleep.

But if it wasn't, if he wasn't
sleeping, what might he be?

And then they say, oh, he might be dead.

And of course what Bellini's
doing is that he's placed.

The child in Mary's lap in such a way as
to remind us of what we call the Pietà,

which is the, the depiction of Mary with
the dead Christ in, in, in her arms.

And then suddenly the whole sort
of painting in a way makes sense.

It's that she, she has her child
asleep on her lap, but she's

having some sort of premonition of.

The future of his death.

And then these references to death
are there all over the landscape.

With the tree, the dead trees.

It's an autumnal landscape,
the carrion bird.

And there, there are more
sort of correspondences

between figures and landscape.

As if to suggest that the message of,
of Christ's life and passion, et cetera,

are indirectly reflected in nature.

And the two, the two are
basically the same thing.

Yeah.

And it's, anyway, all done in the
most unassuming, gentle, un un,

rhetorical manner by a, by a man in
his eighties who's mastered a new a new

technique, a new, a new type of paint.

It's brilliant.

It's brilliant.

Rupert Isaacson: What's interesting
is that people obvious obviously

didn't live that long typically then.

I'm looking at, I've been looking at the
painting while you've been talking about

it and I noticed in the background there's
also the landscape looks parched and

there's a cow herd not wearing any pants
who's clearly exhausted, who's kind of

collapsed with his back to the fence post.

Cow's up.

around him and there's a, there's a,
a water with a big, with a big sort of

lever thing clearly meant for by hand,
but behind that there's a figure who

you think, well, is that the cow her?

But no, it's wrapped
in, it looks like death,

Tom Parsons: wrapped in all

Rupert Isaacson: sorts of weird
shrouds, but equally it could just be

someone coming to check out the cows.

You know, I,

what's interesting to
me is that you've got.

To 15th century.

Well, I guess this guy's early 16th
century people here What do you feel

I've got my own feelings about this,
but why is that such an important time?

European culture, this, it's the
high renaissance, so it's, but

it's just before all the really big
stuff takes off in the 16th century.

What do you think it is about this
15th century stuff that Obviously,

it's the beginning of perspective and
there's some technical things in there.

But why is that such an important
time and place to bring people's

attention to if they're Westerners,
to understand themselves?

Tom Parsons: I think that

we, you know, we can, we can talk
about the, if you like, the, the,

the birth of the modern world occur.

We can actually sort of choose lots
of different starting points for the,

for the, for the birth of the modern
world and the world, the world with

which we are, we, we are familiar,
the one, the one we inhabit ourselves.

At this you know, you could say, you
might say, oh, it's the Industrial

Revolution, it's mid 19th century, or
it's it's the, all the, the, or, or

it's, it's, it's the 20th century and,
and, and sort of modern art and so on.

But you can equally, you can say,
ah, yeah, Renaissance, the beginning

of, of, of the modern world.

It's it, it, it's the when the,
certainly in terms of economics and

trade and commerce we have a kind of
beginnings of a, of a continental a

sort of coherent and and effective
kind of banking system on the one hand.

Yeah.

We've also got the emergence of a, a
scientific attitude towards towards the

world itself and, and humanity So a, a
breaking, well, an, an alternative way of

looking and seeking understanding of how,
of how the world works and how, and our

place within it using, in effect, what we
would call the sort of scientific method.

And that's all starting with,
that's all beginning to take,

to take hold, and it's yielding.

very, very significant sort of
results, socially, scientifically,

philosophically, in the

15th, early 16th century.

However, at that particular
moment, it's not in conflict with

Christian, the Christian faith,
it's the two go together.

And and all of that's going
to get blown out of the water.

That, that, if you like, marriage
between a kind of rational scientific

outlook, which in its In its own ways,
is our legacy from the classical world

married, married to the, to, to a a
sort of Christian ideology and as I

say, that, that moment is short lived
and the, you know, the Reformation

didn't help, the Enlightenment certainly
didn't help the church and by the, you

know, come the, come the end of the
Industrial Revolution, and communism is

et cetera, the church has never really
recovered and the scientific or rational

outlook has leapt, leapt forward.

Rupert Isaacson: One of the things that
always leaps out at me when I'm looking at

those paintings from that particular cusp,
mid late 15th century, first years, first

decade maybe of the 16th, is that's of
course when the new world comes into play.

The New World couldn't have happened
without that banking system, as you say,

that emerges weirdly out of the sort
of sleeping ruins of the Roman Empire,

which has been, you know, smashed up
at the beginning of the Middle Ages,

and It's sort of, you know, a limping,
wounded thing for a while until northern

kings decide that maybe it's a good
idea if the pope ratifies their rule

so that they can say to other northern
kings, sorry, I got to the pope first

and he signed this bit of paper.

So actually I'm king, not you.

And then that kind of notarization.

Brings all this money in, and
then suddenly by the end of the

15th century, the Church of Rome
suddenly re emerges as a bank.

Brilliant.

And that bank subsidizes

the conquest of the New World.

The New World, of course, then
re subsidizes Rome back through

the Spanish and Portuguese.

And we end up with the
world that we know now.

But it's, it's so interesting to, for
me to stand in front of a painting

like that and go, wow, that's right
at the cusp of us, the, this kind

of Western transatlantic thing that
is the kind of economic and cultural

reality of our culture, what we
call the West didn't exist then.

And it's just about to exist.

Because these guys got it
together as bankers, there, which

meant that they could afford
to commission these paintings.

And, ba boom!

I always find that intriguing to
sort of see a historical moment

like that and realize that you
can still stand in front of it.

Okay, so you're, you're, you're exposing
people to this sense of perspective.

And I, I guess what I was trying to
Get out as to why it's so good for

the human mind and the human soul
is I'm a great believer And so is

neuroscience, in the power of awe, A W E.

There's an increasing number of studies
being done into the mental and emotional

effects of being faced with something
that you feel is so much greater than you,

that it makes you feel very, very small,
while that is overwhelmingly beautiful.

Now, of course, you don't have to
look very hard for that, you just

have to look outside the window.

It's called Planet Earth, and it's
anything that mankind produces,

is always pales in comparison.

Naturally, even though people have argued
about this over the centuries, it's

pretty hard to paint Niagara Falls better
than Niagara Falls is Niagara Falls.

Yeah, you can have a go, but you know,
it's probably probably going to be a

little bit better, you know, a bit like
the Rolling Stones trying to be James

Brown in the early 60s in their things.

I've heard Mick Jagger say, yeah,
maybe, maybe we were trying to do that.

Maybe James Brown was just a
little bit better than we were.

So, okay.

So art and nature and so, but nonetheless,
you can get this with art, I feel too.

And I do feel that when the humanities
are at their best, art, literature,

music, it doesn't have to be the old
stuff, it can be the new stuff too.

It does something to the human psyche,
which makes us kinder, weirdly.

And science seems to be supporting this.

What have you noticed with the kids
that you've been helping to teach,

whether in London or around Italy, so in
these last decades, and a lot of us are

parents, some of us are grandparents.

Why is this something that we
should maybe be paying attention

to in the upbringing of our kids?

Tom Parsons: Oh, I think that if I mean it

to feel a sense of connection even
of belonging to something As you say,

which is bigger than you, but as I say,
but you, but it's, it's, it's not it's

not alien and it's not inimical as I
say something, but something bigger.

But nonetheless at the same time,
something that you in, in some

small way you belong to, you are
part of is inspiring, liberating,

comforting something like that.

Perhaps at it, at its best.

Rupert Isaacson: I'm, I'm looking here at
a study recently published study out of

university of California as into, or as
a pathway to mental and physical health.

And here's, here were the, here's
some fine, there's a ton of stuff.

This is, this is published on pub med,
you know, where you can go and get any.

medical study published,
you know, blah, blah, blah.

This is a great quote or then is
associated with a profile of elevated

vagal tone, reduced sympathetic arousal.

Increased oxytocin release,
and reduced inflammation.

All processes known to benefit
mental and physical health.

This is in the abstract.

So, those listeners who aren't familiar
with what vagal tone means, your vagus

nerve, meaning the wandering nerve,
is your biggest nerve in your body.

Connects your downstairs to your upstairs,
and it touches every organ in your body.

And it's a bit like the Northern
line in London, because it's got

two parallel branches that do hit
the brain, but they can also go

to different parts of the brain.

So it matters which one of those branches
you get on, because if you want to go to

Edgeware, you might end up in High Barnet
sort of thing, if you don't end up there.

But they go from south to north through
London, through the human body, just

the same touching all the nerve centers.

When you produce oxytocin which is
the queen of our feel good hormones

because it's the one that brings
the feeling of connectedness and

it makes you want to communicate.

So it's very interesting that
you, you, you talked about the

feeling of belonging there, Tom.

If you can create oxytocin in
your gut cause you can create

it in many parts of your body.

As the vagal nerve brings it up through
your body to your brain, it touches every

organ in Tune and they begin to sing like
a choir together so that by the time it

hits your brain it hits your brain like
a Join army or a joy army a joygasm, you

know, we have that Feeling and we all have
that feeling in front of powerful nature

in front of the ocean in front of the sky
in front of Somebody we love in front of

great art great music like that shamanic
Experience and but what's so interesting?

Is that it has physical
effects beyond that.

Reduced inflammation,
that's so interesting.

Because so reduced sympathetic
arousal is reducing cortisol,

effectively the stress hormone.

That's what it means.

Sympathetic nervous system being That
actually not sympathetic nervous is

really annoying that scientists had
to try and be clever and call the

thing that isn't sympathetic The
sympathetic one and the one that is

sympathetic the parasympathetic one
so annoying they should be shot but

the idea that it reduces inflammation
because irritation annoyance anger

Irritation is almost always
a result of inflammation.

You talk about irritated skin, you
know, so the idea of it calming

and soothing one as well through
this sort of oxytocin release and

making us bond with each other.

So it, I've definitely observed
this watching you teach.

And I've observed you connect people like
this to very, very beautiful human works.

I tend to do it with nature.

And I see the same reaction happen in
these people that I would expect to happen

with the autumn colors in the forest or
a beautiful horse or seeing the Serengeti

migration or whatever, a great sunset.

So it's interesting to know this.

And then the, the other
aspect, which I have.

What I've always been so impressed by
is your ability to bring play in, and I,

you know, the climbing up the Minster,
only one of your many great moments

I always feel that you make it playful,
and this is so important when we're

learning you brought a great sense of play
to these Italian things in particular.

Could you tell us a little bit
about the Colosseum Club, please?

Tom Parsons: Yes.

Oh dear.

This is quite irresponsible.

I wonder who's listening to this.

Nevermind.

This was something which

I actually, I never
did this with students.

Because it really was wonderful.

I

Rupert Isaacson: remember doing this
with you, but I wasn't a student.

Tom Parsons: Wonderfully I mean, a
wonderful experience, but it was.

You know, it was kind of illegal
and pretty irresponsible.

Anyway, yeah, no, what it, what
it involved was with, the first

time I, I I climbed into the
Coliseum was with my friend Robert.

We're talking

Rupert Isaacson: about the Roman Coliseum.

Tom Parsons: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: In Rome, the big coine.

Okay.

Tom Parsons: Robert and I

Rupert Isaacson: how do you climb
into, how did you climb into it?

What's climbing into it even mean?

Tom Parsons: I would like to clarify
that this is a num This is years ago.

Yeah.

And the Italian authorities
are much, much more strict.

And we'll get really cross.

Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: this is before the
days of video cameras and all of that.

Yes, absolutely.

Explain to us what it involved.

Tom Parsons: What it involved was, was
finding a, basically it had high, high,

high metal, kind of like scaffolding pole
bars, which actually were quite, were, you

know, weren't that impossible to get over.

Rupert Isaacson: How high were

Tom Parsons: they?

Three meters.

I mean, quite high, but but you,
but they, but you But scalable?

You had a purchase on the you had, there
was a purchase so you, you could get over.

Anyway, Robert and I went in late,
late, late, late, late, and climbed in

the dark to the, towards the top where
we sat and and read our Byron, read

Byron's description of the Coliseum by
moonlight, which was in fact Was it a

Rupert Isaacson: moonlit
night that you went up there?

Tom Parsons: In.

Yes, it was.

And, and that, and that was
our, that was our motor for

going in, in the first place.

It was knowing that Byron had been, been
there by night, 200 years earlier, or and,

and it was absolutely extraordinary.

It was a ghostly, you know,
it was empty, it was dark.

And it was, you know, it was.

It was also something of a relief to
find a young Roman couple having a

jolly good snog at the top who who broke
away from their snog and engaged us

in a really quite a loud conversation.

They had absolutely no qualms
about being, being caught.

And and it did seem.

As though the, there was a security
guard who probably knew we were

there and had no intention whatsoever
of confronting, I guess, four

people, four against one, whatever.

Yeah, so we did that and then I know
you and I went in and I have been back

not for, not for a number of years now.

I don't think I'd do it now.

Well,

Rupert Isaacson: here's, here's my,
here's my Interpretation of it because

I remember when you said, okay, Ru,
there's this thing we got to do and we

were there together and you, it was a
moonlit night and we went to the Coliseum.

There it is.

It's vast.

It's huge.

And you said, look, you
see that thing up there?

We have to climb that.

And I remember looking
at it quite skeptically.

You've always been the climber.

I think, I think it was
higher than three meters.

I think it's more like four.

And what you left out
was there was a jagged.

There was a break in the spiky fence.

There's one spike that had
broken off, so you could kind

of climb between the spikes.

But if you put one foot wrong
the spiky bits of the broken

spike were going to impale you.

Then we, then we popped down on the
other side, very, with this anxiety

in my mind, thinking, I'm going to
have to get out over that thing again.

And That climb up through the
Coliseum to the top and then looking

down into the arena by moonlight
and then having you read this poem.

I'm now going to read it.

It's a bit long, but it's
worth hearing, people.

And hear the buzz murmured pity or loud
roared applause as man was slaughtered.

And wherefore slaughtered?

Wherefore, but because such were the
bloody circus's genial laws, And the

imperial pleasure, wherefore not?

What matters where we fall,
to fill the moors of worms, On

battleplanes or listed spot?

Both are but theatres
where the chief actors rot.

I see before me the gladiator lie.

He leans upon his hand, his
manly brow consents to death.

But conquers agony and his drooped
head sinks gradually low and through

his side the last drops ebbing slow
from the red gash, four heavy, one by

one like the first of a thundershower.

And now the arena swims around him.

He is gone.

E'er ceased the inhuman shout
which hailed the wretch who won.

He heard it, but he heeded not.

His eyes were with his
heart, and that was far away.

He reck'd not of the life he'd
lost, nor prize, But where his rude

hut by the Danube lay, And there
his young barbarians all at play.

There was their Dacian mother, he their
sire, Butchered to make a Roman holiday.

All this rushed with his blood.

Shall he expire and unavenged?

Arise, ye Goths, and glut your ire!

But here, where murder breathed her bloody
stream, And here, where buzzing nations

choked the ways, And roared or murmured
like the mountain stream, Dashing or

winding as its torrent strays, Here, where
the Roman millions blame or praise, Was

life or death, the playthings of a crowd.

My voice sounds much, and falls
to the star's faint rays, On the

arena, void seats, crushed walls.

bowed, and galleries where my
steps seem echoes, strangely

loud, a ruin, yet, what ruin?

I'm gonna end there.

Tom Parsons: Yeah, no,
it's, it's something else.

Rupert Isaacson: It's something else.

And I remember you reading that poem
and then connecting that, of course,

with that marble statue called the Dying
Gaul which I think inspired that poem.

Tell us about the Dying Gaul.

Where is it?

And what is it?

Tom Parsons: The Dying Gaul is a
Roman, a classical Roman statue.

It's in, it's in Rome.

It's in the Capitoline Museum.

So it's not that far away
from the Codiceum itself.

And it's been on view in that
museum since the, or late 1700s.

And it was, it's been copied.

Yeah, countless times.

So, but anyway, the, the
original is, is there in Rome.

Byron would have seen it, he would
have known copies in you know, stately

homes from, from, from England.

So that statue, knowledge
of the statue printed.

illustrations of it and so on were very
much part of an English aristocrat's

kind of classical education.

So an English aristocratic traveler
such as Byron would it's on his,

it's on his list of things to see.

So he, he would have seen it.

And therefore, yeah,
he, he makes references.

It's a, it's a basically a new
male nude figure prone lying on the

ground, but sort of propped up on

Rupert Isaacson: dying
gladiator, basically.

Tom Parsons: Yeah.

Possibly, yeah, no, actually no
one knows if it, is it a gladiator?

Is it a a warrior?

No one really knows, but but
certainly dying, there is a

wound and that there are A

Rupert Isaacson:
barbarian crushed by Rome.

Yeah, dying in an
aesthetically beautiful way.

Tom Parsons: So he, he takes the memory of
the statue and imagines it as a gladiator

dying in the, dying in the arena.

But at the same time, he's also describing
the the destruction of the Colosseum.

And with that, so he's
imagining what it was like.

in its heyday, but he's contrasting
that with its present condition.

He's, he's there in about 1816.

And He's using all of this to sort of
meditate on if you like the transience

of human achievement and the inevitable
decline of all empires and, and the

unspoken kind of presence in all of
this is Napoleon, who's just lost,

and his empire has just collapsed.

And and that's the sort
of filter that he's.

Looking or experiencing the Coliseum
through partly his own classical

education and his awareness of the
classical past and partly present, very

present contemporary political events
which makes that poem so evocative.

Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.

I've seen the Dying Gaul in
its, in the museum, but also.

As you say, there's so many reproductions
of it because it's such a powerful

statue and that thing butchered to make
a Roman holiday, all of the references

that go out from that, even like to,
you know, movies like Roman holiday

now is that, you know, classic movie.

And the references from something
like that go up and down history

and then Arise ye Goths, because
of course it's the Goths from the

Danube who actually sack Rome in 410.

Beginning of the fifth century.

They actually leave it largely intact.

It's the vandals, vandals who
come along a few years later

who actually finish the job.

But that's why we have vandalism.

But the, what I love about that
experience of the Coliseum Club and

that's why I wanted you to talk about it.

The whole point is that, yes,
it, was it, was it irresponsible?

If you had said to those, that Roman
couple up there enjoying their city

and the freedom of being able to
climb in there at night because

they're probably also living, you
know, with their parents apartments.

And this is a place that they
could go and be together.

And this is open to everybody
and freedom and that life is

so much more restrictive now.

They could not, as residents of
the city, think about climbing in

there without getting arrested.

Yeah.

Things have, the world I feel
has in many ways got narrower

since those days in the nineties.

But.

We, they, like Byron, like whoever
Byron encountered in those ruins, could

go in there and read that poem and
feel it and have an adventure with it.

Should young people in particular, but
also oldies like us, not lose the habit

of taking this playful approach to art
and life and, you know, take that poetry

book to the place Where it was done.

Jump through some hoops to get in there.

Take a bit of a risk.

Isn't that what makes life beautiful?

It's,

Tom Parsons: Yeah, absolutely.

Rupert Isaacson: If you made it
this far into the podcast, then I'm

guessing you're somebody that, like
me, loves to read books about not

just how people have achieved self
actualization, but particularly

about the relationship with nature.

Spirituality, life, the
universe, and everything.

And I'd like to draw your
attention to my books.

If you would like to read the story
of how we even arrived here, perhaps

you'd like to check out the two New
York Times bestsellers, The Horseboy

and The Long Ride Home, and come on an
adventure with us and see what engendered,

what started Live Free Ride Free.

And before we go back to the
podcast, also check out The Healing

Land, which tells the story of.

My years spent in the Kalahari with the
Sun, Bushmen, hunter gatherer people

there, and all that they taught me, and
mentored me in, and all that I learned.

Come on that adventure with me.

Tom Parsons: It's, it's yeah.

You know, a good lunch is also
important, but, good lunch.

Right, but the, yeah.

What

Rupert Isaacson: defines a good lunch?

Oof.

I seem to remember our mutual
friend Robert Woodward had a very

particular Definition of that.

The same man who introduced
you to the Coliseum Club.

Tom Parsons: Yeah, yeah, well,
it's as much the company as as

anything else, but no, sorry, just
going back, going back to, to,

Rupert Isaacson: just quickly,
Robert's, Robert's, go, go, go.

Do you, what he used to say was

lunch without wine is not lunch.

It's a snack.

Yes.

Yes.

Words to live by.

Tom Parsons: Yeah.

But that, that whole
experience if you like, is.

I would say again, it's one of belonging.

Goethe Belonging

Rupert Isaacson: to one's
past and one's culture.

Yeah, I see what you mean.

Tom Parsons: Goethe's journal at
one point has the entry he's just

arrived in Rome and he says One
becomes, as it were, a contemporary

of the great decrees of history.

So it is, it is about belonging.

Not, not to, it's belonging
to a culture, to a history.

Belonging to something in
its best and worst moments.

And it's, so it, it's, it's in many ways.

A question of identity, of, of finding
or sensing that that your identity is, is

inextricably linked to something way, way
bigger than, bigger and older than you.

And that's

Rupert Isaacson: I want to go quickly a
bit into how you draw on these types of

experiences of treading the line between
the responsible and the irresponsible,

the play and the serious in.

your work with young people because
you've actually spent the last 20

years in service to young people.

And then I want to go into finish with
Spoke and this amazing film festival that

you And now poetry and art that you do
for young people, which is the sort of

beginning of your next career, which is
sort of distillation of all these things.

But there's two things I want to
just go to just before we go there.

You started with Rothko.

We've been in the
Renaissance and the Baroque.

But I know that your
great love is Matisse.

Why?

Why should we all pay
attention to Matisse?

Tom Parsons: I spent quite a long time
researching Matisse for a postgraduate.

Thesis and and yeah, he became incredibly
important to me still and still is.

Why?

Because

Rupert Isaacson: he why
him and not Picasso?

Why not him?

Why him and not Dali?

Why not one of those?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Why Matisse?

Contemporary guys.

Tom Parsons: Sure.

Matisse was an artist,

actually very interesting, actually in
some ways he left An awful lot of his own,

of himself out of his art, or to be
accurate he, that there are plenty

of references to himself in his art,
but they're disguised Picasso on

the other hand, it's, it's sort of,

Rupert Isaacson: he's front and center.

He's the main character.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Tom Parsons: So Matisse was not, not
without a domineering sort of artistic ego

but he, he did is more discreet about it.

He was aware of it and he sort
of, found ways to kind of duck

and dive around it, let's say.

So there's that.

There's his okay, he took a
decision early on in his career.

He's quite a late starter, but he took
his decision early on as an artist to

concentrate on that, those elements of
his, those elements of, of his life.

Painting or sculpture or drawing,
which offer a kind of consolation

to the viewer and he deliberately
Consolation, that's an interesting

And he avoided confrontation with the
darker aspects of human experience.

And for this, he's, has been criticized
for, you know, for being a little bit

pretty or, or superficial or, or a bit
almost sort of willfully naive which,

which are not really accusations, I
think, that are, that are justified,

but but I can see why, because actually
the way in which he deployed his chosen

that sort of visual vocabulary very
often actually leaves a trace of the,

if you like, of the sort of creative
effort it cost him to get there.

So, so it's, it's not
just pretty patterns.

It's it's more than that.

And that's, that's why I,
that's why I love them.

Rupert Isaacson: So Joy
Matisse, why is this important?

Tom Parsons: Okay.

I'm thinking of a of, I'm thinking of
a la a line in one of, well, in the, in

the lin little gidding, one of the, the,
the last of Ts Elliot's four quartets.

Which in which he.

A condition of complete simplicity,
costing not less than everything.

Wha?

Can you just repeat that?

A condition of complete simplicity,
costing not less than everything.

Okay.

And that's a kind of, it's almost
the final line, not quite the last

line of, of the, the, the final
quartet of the four quartets.

And it seems to me that, that what
Matisse is seeking is exactly that.

It, there's an aspiration to
a kind of purity or simplicity

in his visual language.

And that is what I would, I
would equate that with, with

joy freedom, liberty and so on.

And he does Seek, tune, find, visual
expression of those, that kind of

ideal through, let's say, editing
out everything that's unnecessary in

whatever it is that he's actually making.

But almost every time, whether in
whatever medium he's using, and I think

this was a deliberate ploy on his part.

he leaves evidence of the effort
and struggle that it cost him.

So there are frequently rubbings out,
scratches evident obvious corrections

that are there on the particularly
in the, in the paintings or or,

or, or drawings, sculptures too.

So the, the, so yes, his subject
matter might be a dancing.

A dancing figure or figures.

And, you know, a DA dance in a, in
a landscape, you know, that's a,

a kind of trope for a, a a, a sort
of paradise on earth, let's say.

But but it can be very glib and and.

and forgettable.

But the way Matisse does that is
is, is not and therefore, therefore,

you know, he's, he's special.

Rupert Isaacson: He has a particular
painting called Joy of Life which

I think expresses that philosophy.

And I know that Picasso
regarded him as a great rival.

So he obviously made
Picasso feel insecure.

So Picasso had to diss him in the same
way that Picasso had to diss Dali.

And he called Dali the great masturbator.

Because, you know, obviously,
I guess he didn't like other

people being as good as him.

And Picasso, as we know famously,
does deal with all the dark stuff.

And I often feel that
that's just too easy.

Oh, I'm going to do the darkest, darkest,
darkest, as if that was anything special.

The world is full of darkness.

We see it all around us.

We know what's been going on in the
last, you know, 18 months in the world.

Just now, you know, it's
darkest all as dark can be.

But is that really where we want
to put our attention all the time?

And people who are going through
darkness certainly don't want to.

So to celebrate darkness, I always feel
for its own sake is almost, it's just a

bit like social media pricking people's
amygdala so they'll buy your product

and, you know, pay attention to you.

Do you feel that when you're drawing
people's attention to Matisse in

particular, is that in the back of your
mind that you're trying to make the,

really, or promulgate that
philosophy, I suppose?

Be joyful.

Life is short, be joyful.

I, yes, I mean, I,

Tom Parsons: Yeah, it, it slightly depends
on the context in which I'm teaching

him, but, but, but but certainly the,

yeah, you know, the, the idea that that,
that whatever beauty he however beautiful

the, the image might be, it's, he, he
does leave, as I say, sort of yeah.

Traces of the, of, of
the, of the price paid.

No one

Rupert Isaacson: said
it would be easy, right?

Tom Parsons: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Which, so there's a sort of, a sense of,

Rupert Isaacson: Got to
put some effort into it.

Tom Parsons: Yeah, it, it, it's
a, it, it kind of validates

or, or enhances the value.

Yeah.

Tom Parsons: Of of something
which otherwise might be merely

pretty or at worst, as I say,
kind of glib and forgettable.

Rupert Isaacson: There's a fairly
unforgettable story you once

told me about him and Picasso.

I think listeners deserve to hear it.

Tom Parsons: The, I think I know the one,
the, the the, yeah, Picasso and Matisse

recognised each other as rivals
from the, from the, beginning.

And, and the relationship
was, was an uneasy one.

But it morphed from rivalry and, and
sort of, it never entirely lost, I

think, a sense of competition, but
but it morphed into, into a, into a a

friendship, but, but not an intimate one.

One that was absolutely
based on mutual respect.

Despite the, the, you know, despite
the, the being so different as artists

and I think as, as, as people, but
anyway, the story is of as both

now in their, in their later years.

Picasso's about 10 years younger
than Matisse, but, and Matisse

is now an old man living down in
Nice, Picasso's there as well.

Anyway, they, they used to, they used to
meet up, but every now and again, but,

but such meetings had to be pre, pre
arranged through their secretaries, you

know, that and Picasso obviously broke
that sort of unwritten rule one time.

And turned up at Matisse's apartment
with his, his lover was that Francoise?

I think it was Francoise,
she loved, anyway.

And they're looking, they're
trying to find where Matisse is.

Matisse kept, kept the window shutters
drawn to, to protect his eyesight

unless, unless he was working.

Anyway, so that.

Picasso and mistress are
wandering through the rooms,

wondering where Matisse might be.

And suddenly, the very elderly
Matisse pops out from behind a

cupboard and and says coo coo coo
coo coo coo and then stops horrified

because it's not his secretary and

Ian.

Yeah, but it's it's Lydia.

Sorry, it's he, Picasso.

Thought it was Lydia.

And anyway,

Rupert Isaacson: Matisse
thought it was Lydia,

Tom Parsons: Sorry.

Matisse thought it was
Lydia and, and and it's not.

Anyway, so he's, he's . And so he's sort
of discover, he's sort of, yeah, Picasso

loved that story 'cause he'd sort of
caught, caught out Matis who never let

anything like that ever be known or seen.

In, in public, whereas, of
course, Picasso's reputation

was quite the reverse.

But anyway so yeah, that that, that,
that, anyway, that, that, in the end,

when Matisse died, there's Picasso

went into a sort of mini
depression and stopped working.

Oh, I can't remember how long it was
for, but it was, you know, he, he was

So Mattis is dead, Mattis is dead,
Mattis is dead, and then paints these

very, these, these, a series of pictures
that are sort of elegiac farewells.

To, to Matisse, it's, it's.

Rupert Isaacson: Ooh, I
didn't know about those.

Let me look those up.

To Matisse from Picasso.

Tom Parsons: No, you'd have, they're,
oh, I can't think of the title off

the top of my head, but they're
interiors of his own studio space in

a villa that was called La Californie.

And that they, and there's more than
one, it might be quite hard to find.

immediately, but but they contain
sort of visual little visual

links to works by Matisse.

Rupert Isaacson: Wow, I'm
just reading this now.

So when the older Matisse died
in 1954, Picasso found himself

struggling to cope with the
sudden absence of his great rival.

Yes, he is dead, Picasso said profoundly,
and I am continuing his paintings.

In the immediate aftermath of
Matisse's death, Picasso did just that.

Interesting.

I had no idea.

I feel also I just realized I was
a bit mean to Picasso there about

dealing with the dark stuff He was
after all Living through the Spanish

Civil War and all its atrocities.

So, I stand a little bit Chastened.

Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: sorry Picasso All right.

So one of the things which I like
about that story is of Picasso

jumping out from behind the dresser
thinking it was going to be his

lover and it wasn't, it was Picasso.

Is this idea of folly, and I can't
remember which philosopher writes this.

Is it Montaigne or is
it somebody like that?

Basically that there is no happiness that
does not contain some degree of folly.

That it's necessary, it's necessary
for joy, it's necessary for the soul.

And of course, we've talked about.

We've, you know, edited a lot of
the silly things that we've done,

but we've alluded to a couple.

But you and I have definitely gotten
our PhDs in folly in many ways.

And it's one of the things actually
I respect the most about you.

And I always respect this about people
who are willing to not stand on their

dignity, willing to let their dignity go.

In fact, I remember once I wish I'd
been there, but you had told me that

you delivered a homily on dignity at
a party of our mutual friend Robert,

and then probably fell off the wall
cause you were drunk and or tried

to jump on top of it and fell over
backwards and exactly as one should.

It's that kind of thing, which
I think makes people their most.

Lovable and

sparks are mutual.

You know, our feeling of common humanity.

And it's, it's so important PE that
one can act with some folly in life.

Otherwise.

What is li what is life without that?

I mean, what a gray desert.

That sounds like otherwise.

Okay, so we are moving towards.

The last portion of this, you, you spent
the last 20 years pastoral care being

a housemaster at Hogwarts, I think,
is it Hufflepuff or is it Ravenclaw

that you are the hou, well, the house
master of it, it was one of them.

But for those listeners it was a school
very much like that, that Hogwarts is

kind of based around these ideas and,
but of course, you know, kids off at

boarding schools, they're lonely, they.

They are cut off from their families.

It's tough and it's not really how
humans are ever supposed to do things.

So when you find yourself in the pastoral
care of these people, you know, the

fact that you understand something
about folly becomes massively important.

Otherwise, what tools have you got?

To to help them through.

I also want to talk a little bit just
about false starts So people often think

when you're doing say a story like this,
this is live free ride free I'm sort

of celebrating your life because you've
been living this self determined life

based around following your passions
Making those available to the world and

I feel everyone who's come into contact
with that myself included benefits It

can feel like a retrospective often
of Great successors, but I know that

actually it's the follies and the things
that are not successful that are often

actually the most important that inform
and then become successors later on.

So I remember right after university,
you were also booked to do a PhD and

that's when Matisse came in and you
wrote a very beautiful book on Matisse,

which is still out there, I think.

You should go look for Thomas
Parsons book on Matisse on Amazon.

Published by Studio Editions.

Big, thick thing, and it's brilliant.

And I'll plug that again at the end
and all the other stuff you've written.

Tom's written a lot of books.

And then that PhD didn't happen.

And then, right after, there was
also a point where you had your first

son, Hector, who's my, my godson.

And you and Katie, your wife,
who's also an old friend of mine.

One of my oldest friends.

Moved to Italy and made a kind of bid
for happiness and you were working

and making yourself a carving out a
life there as a freelancer and then

boom Katie gets Pregnant with twins
and gotta go home and get a job.

Some people would have seen those
or interpreted say those two events.

I start the PhD, I don't get the PhD.

I want to move to Rome and do this
big thing and I actually have to go

back to England because da da da.

In terms of well those, oh, acts
of folly and okay they didn't

work out or something like that.

But I don't see it that way at all.

And I think it's very
important to look at.

those types of experiences and then see
what they give you in terms of how they

inform perspective and Helping other
people with what seem at the time to

be great disappointments, but actually
turn out to be gateways to other things

Just talk a little bit about those
experiences and how they've helped You

do what you do and particularly spoke,
which is your sort of next thing.

How have those Seemingly false starts
or one step forward two steps back

type thing helped you put this other
thing together, which you're now doing

Tom Parsons: Okay.

Yeah the well, okay, so briefly, the PhD
that never got finished through doing

that I I, I met two, well, three people,
two of whom we've mentioned, Nick and

Robert and Cargs, and it was through
them that I started teaching in Italy.

Cargs is Sarah

Rupert Isaacson: Cargorm.

Yeah, yeah.

Tom Parsons: And then, really, as it
was through, well, God, through that,

I, I, I got my first work contract.

And Because of those, I would then,
you know, got freelance work at the

National Gallery in the Tate and so
on and then when, when, when it was

needed, or at least I felt it was
needed it got me the job at, at the

school when we suddenly had, had, had
the prospect of sort of three kids

and, and so actually it all led to

It all led to, you
know, a good end result.

Anyway, yeah, so for now Spoke is, is

Rupert Isaacson: What,
yeah, what is Spoke?

Tom Parsons: Spoke is something that,
that I kind of began at school and will

continue with now as I, as I've left.

I will continue to sort of make
it, make it, make it, make it grow.

But basically it's a, it's a documentary
competition aimed for school students,

say up to anyone, different age,
age age ranges up to, up to 18.

And there are two competitions.

One is to make a documentary about a, a
work of art the other is to make a short

film about, in response to a, a poem.

So in both cases, the, the.

students choose either a poem or a
work of art and make a film about them.

They, they send them in.

I have a panel of judges.

You've been a loyal, hardworking
judge over the, over the years.

And and then, and then,
and then people win prizes.

So, it's, always spoke is
actually 10 years old this year.

But it's always been quite a
well, it's, you know, it's tiny.

It's quite modest in terms of the
numbers who enter, and I would love

to make it something bigger, but I
now have the the time to do that.

And, So that's, yeah,
so that's what Spoke is.

Again, you know, that wouldn't
have happened without, I

guess, me being at school.

I don't think I'd have thought of it.

So, anyway, yeah, it's a good thing.

Rupert Isaacson: What,
where's Spoke going to go?

What are you doing with it?

Okay, so it's, it's, it's something, it's
all about art for young people, and you've

now added poetry, and you've added art.

Tom Parsons: Where's

Rupert Isaacson: it going?

And why is doing something
like this important?

Tom Parsons: I think that
okay, I mean, I need to focus.

Effort and time into, into growing it
and, and but the reason it's important

is because it, it is it's, it's creative.

It's not restricted by, by the syllabus
and, or by the the, the, the, the,

the, the exam boards and the sort of.

That, that side of education
in, within, within school.

So you, you, the, the students are
completely free to to do, to follow

whatever path they, they, they choose.

They can choose any barren,
any work of art, and so on.

They don't have to repeat what
their teachers have told them.

They can make connections to
anything, anything at all.

So that's, that's the sort of
creative freedom that it offers.

Secondly again, actually, it's almost
where we began, but, you know, ours is

such a visual, visual culture, and the,
particularly with the smartphone now,

the making of films is something which
you know, we're doing it all the time

and especially, I, but for any sort of
student for whom the written word is,

is not, you know, if that's not their
chosen medium, if they're not comfortable

there and it is still the main area in
which our education system tests people.

If actually you want to express your
admiration and understanding of a panel

or a work of art you can, and you,
you would rather do that visually.

Spoke gives you that,
gives you that opportunity.

So, so I thought, yeah, it's sort of,
it, it fits the zeitgeist because it's,

it's film and it's, and it offers,
it's an opportunity to be analytical

up to a point but and technically,
technically competent up to a point,

but most of all sort of creative.

So that's what Spoken's.

Rupert Isaacson: It's a really
interesting trajectory, I feel, your

life, and one that has been governed by

the Loyal and relentless pursuit of what
matters to your soul, knowing that that's

going to matter to other people's souls,
and making that available to people.

And now with Spoke, it's
so interesting to me.

You're how old now?

60.

Okay, you don't look a day
over 80, you look amazing.

Just like me.

Right, I'm so used to hearing people
say, Oh, yeah, well, you know, I'm

retiring now and that sort of like
they're just gonna stop doing stuff

and I've never understood that My
own grandfather worked until he died.

I why would you like my dad?

He's 91 Okay, he's not doing as much as
he used to but he's still doing a lot.

Why would you stop?

Doing stuff.

I can see, you know, it's nice to
have choice about things and it's

not about how you put your time.

Yeah.

Great.

Fantastic.

The the desperate edge
of working, relaxing.

Wonderful.

Bring that on.

But to not work just seems to
me we're born, I feel, to work.

So I weirdly feel that with Spoke, even
though I've been seeing you grow it

for the last 10 years, I feel you're
actually just on the cusp now of

possibly the busiest period of your life.

as you retire.

And I think you've already
actually helped some young people

establish themselves with this.

Have some, you, you actually told
me of one or two who've gone on to

become filmmakers having got a bit
of their early start with Spoke now

on your judges panel, for example.

Tom Parsons: Yeah,
there's, yeah, there's one.

Tell me a

Rupert Isaacson: little bit about her.

Tom Parsons: Amber, Amber
Bardell, and she won one of the

very early competitions with.

A film she made on a work by Banksy.

Okay.

And it, and you know, made,
just beautifully filmed.

Really very, made, and
clearly made at home.

And there's some great
shots of the garden shed.

And so on.

But anyway so, you know, using
using, just using what was available

got actually quite limited sort of
means available in terms of place.

But, but in terms of the, the structuring
of the film and the editing and the

camera shots and so on and so forth, it
was really good, really, really good.

It's, it's up there.

On the spoke website, the only problem
being that you need to email me first

to get the password to watch it because
it's not on none of the films at the

moment are immediately accessible because
I'm slightly worried about copyright.

Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

Tom Parsons: But but anyway,
but it's certainly viewable

for, you know, anyone who Do you

Rupert Isaacson: remember
what year it was that she won?

Tom Parsons: Tw

no, not off the top of my head.

16, 2016 maybe?

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

Because I'm looking her up now.

She's there on IMDB.

Yeah.

And there's a work by her called
Art as Catharsis, you know,

it's the healing part of art.

Yeah, yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Nature of Art on there.

She's obviously well on her way.

Amber Bardell.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it's interesting how all these
experiences and all this pursuit

of fulfillment and joy now you
are helping people who are our age

when we were beginning all this,
get a hand up on top of the wall.

So much of it I feel is about quality
of life and we, we are in a day and age

where it's a good thing that we're having.

The discussions we never used
to have about mental health.

And at the same time, I sometimes feel
that those discussions have become so loud

that they almost drown out the value of.

The pursuit of joy for its own sake, which
of course is part of good mental health.

What has been, I think, the untold
story through your whole thing

has been this thing of service.

So you, you, you get religion because the
messages of the Christ message, as well

as a bit of a desire to rebel against
your secular parents resonate on this deep

ideological level, idealistical level.

This leads you to go out
and almost get burning.

Walk oil thrown all over your face
helping heroin addicts coming out of the

street in Hong Kong and a lot of those
would have been triad gang people and

so on and then you put that down, but
you keep your idealism and You take off

after art and you pursue it and you open
this up school kids in London Privileged

kids in Italy everyone everyone who
comes in front of you gets that side,

it gets, gets their eyes open this way.

And then you take on the pastoral
care of the youth at Hogwarts and

have to do that for 20 years, which
is no mean feat to be a housemaster,

effectively a parent in absentia,
while making the world of aesthetics

and awe available for those beautiful
neurological effects we explored earlier.

And now here you are with The
Spoke offering young people a way,

basically, to pursue their careers.

My friend, that's a self actualised
laugh if I ever heard one.

So, we're right at the sort of
two hour, probably gone over mark.

So I think we should leave it there,
but I want people to know how to

Contact you get in touch with spoke.

There'll be people listening.

You've got kids who want to enter these
competitions so If you will could,

could you read out the various websites
whereby people can find you and your

work and your lectures in London, which
are happening on a regular basis and

are brilliant and entertaining and funny
and wonderful, and just let people know

where they can come and get a bit of Tom.

Tom Parsons: Okay.

Thank you Ray.

So spoke is.

Www.

spokecompetition.

com.

Rupert Isaacson: Spokecompetition.

com.

Tom Parsons: And it's kind of bright.

Once you're in, it's kind
of bright and yellow.

And, and, and, and then, you know,
have a navigate around there,

but there's a, there's an I think
on the homepage, there's an, my,

my kind of spoke email is there.

So if you want to be in touch,
please do, please, please do.

Rupert Isaacson: You want to enter
a film, if you want to enter a

poem, if you want to enter some art.

Yeah.

Tom Parsons: So, and

then, yeah, yes, there are
lectures too that I'm giving.

Tell us

Rupert Isaacson: about the lectures.

How do we come to see
a Tom Parsons lecture?

Tom Parsons: Lectures are
in London once a month.

And they are, and I have a
different website for that

because it's slightly different.

Rupert Isaacson: What is that website?

Tom Parsons: That's just tomparsons.

org.

Rupert Isaacson: Very good.

Tom Parsons: And they, and they are,
I'll basically, I'll give a lecture on

an artist or artists.

Re relate directly linked to, to
an exhibition that's on in London

at, at that moment, at that time.

And you come along, we have, we,
we have a glass of wine, something

to some nice things to eat.

And, and then I give

,
Rupert Isaacson: where do they take place?

These lectures.

Tom Parsons: And they take place
just around the back of tape, modern

in in an architectural, rather
beautiful architectural office.

Belonging to my friend, Tom, and,
and then actually, and then the,

the, the, the money that those raise
goes partly towards Spoke and partly

to a therapeutic project, which Tim
McHour, who's, who's officers we use.

Which he's, he's involved in,
in creating for for young people

with, with mental health problems.

Yeah.

So there's a sort of, there's a you
know, a sort of charitable aspect to,

to, to, to those lectures as well.

Rupert Isaacson: So if you have
never attended a Tom Parsons

lecture, you'll laugh a lot.

And you'll be informed
and it will be joyful.

Ooh, a lot of Renaissance stuff there.

Someone I've never heard of you're
talking about on Wednesday, the

14th of May, Ithel or Ithel Cahoon.

Tom Parsons: Cahoon, yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Who's
that when they're at home?

Tom Parsons: English surrealist artist.

Oh, she's, she's great.

She's really fun.

Rupert Isaacson: Still around?

Tom Parsons: Oh,

Rupert Isaacson: that's

Tom Parsons: it.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, that's Ithel.

I T H E L L.

No, no, no.

Ithel.

Ithel Cahoon.

Cahoon is also spelt weird.

It's Colquhoun.

For those

Rupert Isaacson: people who know
English spellings are impossible.

Well, that's a Scottish name, actually.

Ithel Cahoon.

I'm going to look her up.

And then on, Tuesday, the 17th of
June, you've got Jenny Saville.

Tom Parsons: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Tell
us about Jenny Saville.

Tom Parsons: She's
contemporary British painter.

Very, very sort of interesting.

Almost Dali esque.

Personal presentation of the,
of the, of the female body.

Rupert Isaacson: I'm looking at a
picture by her of her knees, presumably

hers, or somebody's, in the bath.

Like their little islands, and one of
them has got a beautiful stone circle

on it, like the one you see at Calanish
in the Hebrides, going down into the

bath water, and then there's other
megaliths sticking up out of the bath.

Well, it's great!

Tom Parsons: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

How'd you come across her?

That painting, the one you're
looking at, is It's in the

tape, it's in the tape machine.

Rupert Isaacson: Ah, super.

Alright, well I've learned something,
as I always do when I'm with you.

And if you are listening to
this not in 2025 you're coming

across this, don't worry.

All you need to do to get to a
Tom lecture, there'll be more

is just go to Tom Parsons Right?

T O M P A R S O N S dot O R G.

And Tom Parsons, art historian.

Thank you so much for coming
on Live Free, Ride Free.

Tom Parsons: My pleasure.

Really.

Thank you very much indeed.

Rupert Isaacson: I've
enjoyed myself immensely.

Tom Parsons: Great.

Okay.

Thanks.

Until the next time.

Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed
today's conversation as much as I did.

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