Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.

Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New
York Times bestselling author of

The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.

Before I jump in with today's guest, I
want to say a huge thank you to you, our

audience, for helping to make this happen.

I have a request.

If you like what we do here,
please give it a thumbs up,

like, subscribe, tell a friend.

It really, really helps
us to make the pro.

To find out about our certification
courses, online video libraries,

books, and other courses,
please go to rupertisakson.

com.

So now let's jump in.

Welcome back to Live Free, ride Free.

Today I've got Nick Viney
from the southwest of England.

Who, what is she?

Is she a regenerative agriculture person?

Is she an artist?

Is she a re wilder and
introducer of endangered species?

Is she a glamping host?

Is she a wildlife ranger?

Is she, well, I, it appears that
she might be all of these things.

And in terms of living a self-actualized
life down there on Dartmore, I'd say

she's having a pretty good crack at it.

So, Nick, thanks for coming on.

Who, who are you, which of
those things are you and, and,

and how and why and stuff?

Nick Viney: Well, thanks for
the introduction, Rupert.

Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm definitely trying
to be all those things and in my,

certainly in my bio and, and I've had a
fairly intense last few years helping an

organization that I work for and, and I'd
lost my, lost my artistic thing a little

bit, my own thing because I was putting it
all, all that creativity into their place.

And so I decided I would definitely put my
artist side first and foremost, because.

If you ask me the question, what do you
want to what do you want to do today?

You can do absolutely anything.

I would say I would like to
paint the world a better place.

So I, I have this show that I'm
working on, which is a large

scale live painting event.

Where we show the transition from
where we are now in land use through

to a regenerative abundance state.

And so there's lots of there's
lots of questions and answers,

lots of audience participation.

And, and you layer up the you
layer up a painting in the same

way as you have to restore land.

You can't just immediately
bung in a golden eagle.

'cause you know, three days
later it's just gonna die.

You have to do the groundwork,
you have to build it up.

So, so primarily an artist.

And, and in terms of.

What, what I then bring to the nature
recovery space is is imagination.

And for me it's, it's really one
of the massive missing tools in

our toolbox in landscape recovery.

And in, in, in agriculture then
we have been conditioned to, to

see to see agriculture, to see
the landscape a as it is now.

So the uk, what is it,
75% minimum agriculture.

And we have been con conditioned to see
it in that way at, you know, if we're

lucky, we get a crisscross of hedges.

This is all a construct and
this has, and we have, you know,

farmed nature outta this picture.

And so for me, I like to, I really
like to, when I look at a landscape,

I like to imagine it, how it wants
to be, how it was before we started

putting up our boundaries and,
you know, saying, get off my land.

And, and understand really
how does water move?

How does it wanna move on that landscape?

How should it move on that landscape
to to allow for regeneration?

Where would trees like to be what animals
should be passing through this landscape?

Yeah, so imagination.

So I'm,

Rupert Isaacson: I'm looking at the those,
those people who are listening on, on

apple as opposed to those of you who are
watching on YouTube will not see that.

Nick is sitting in her studio
and I'm looking behind your back.

I see a, a raven or a crow.

Yeah.

Talking to somebody
perhaps Odin, I don't know.

And then on the other side, I see
what looks like a, a rough of a lady

riding side saddle to the hunt, but the
hounds of foxes perhaps or something.

Nick Viney: I like that.

I like that interpretation.

Rupert Isaacson: That's
what it looks like.

And I, I certainly like that idea.

Nick Viney: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

But you come, you're a farmer.

Yeah.

And one of the things I like about
your bio is that, 'cause I I also

come from a park farming background
and there's this absolute division

that people make in their minds often
about, well, if you're a farmer,

you couldn't possibly be an artist.

Which of course isn't true.

But also a lot of farmers might make that.

I know a lot of pharmacy would
also, you know, and the sort of

anti-intellectualism or the anti artism
among the farming community is as bad

as it is in other parts of society.

And one of the things which I did
grow up with, because my family

farmed in Africa, but they also
farmed a little bit in the uk and.

In the work that we do with
you know, autism in the brain.

Actually a lot of the people we work
with are farmers many of whom are

special needs parents themselves and
have learned how to bring their land

into play in this way for sort of human
wellbeing as well as well for the,

the, the mental and emotional wellbeing
as well as the nutritional wellbeing.

'cause farmers, of course, are
involved in human wellbeing.

It's easy to forget that 'cause they
feed us at the same time they're

grumpy, bunch of grumpy grumps.

And I know this because I grew up among
them and they're their own worst enemies.

So that this idea that, well you've got
to respect the farmers and, but often

they're just so horrible to deal with.

That unfortunately it creates this
alienation between town and co.

Or it promotes the alienation within
TA between town and country, which

I always sort of think, yeah, but
dudes, there's more people in the

cities than there are of you or us.

So how about a charm offensive?

Because they resent the fact that you
own this land, even if, even though

you're producing food for them, and no
amount of telling them they shouldn't,

doesn't, and certainly being grumpy to
them is not gonna help that you sit.

It seems it's all really interesting
to me squarely in the liminal space

between those two populations.

And so you to some degree have an
ambassadorial role there for the land.

And it, it seems to me that maybe
you're pissing off both sides that,

you know, you're, you're, you're
going into the traditional farmers

and saying, well, maybe we should
do regenerative agriculture and some

rewilding and that sort of thing.

And then perhaps the urban
environmentalists are saying,

ah, but it's not enough.

You know, this has got to be completely
rewild and therefore are you, are

you in that position where you are
annoying everybody and you therefore

kind of can't get, can't get it right.

Nick Viney: Quite possibly.

You might, you might have just
described the last 20 years of my life.

But

' Rupert Isaacson: cause the people who
do that are the people I trust the most.

Nick Viney: But I, I,
I believe other people

Rupert Isaacson: trying
to do the right thing.

Right.

Nick Viney: I fully intend to stay
in that position because I, so, so

we had a small farm here growing up,
and I'm lucky, lucky to, to be here,

back here where, where I grew up.

And our family business was
the vets, the local vets.

So we were You were vets.

We were vets.

Okay.

So, so we were, so my, my stepfather.

Was a vet.

And eventually as a little, I had a little
detour into business studies, couldn't

hack that and became a veterinary nurse.

And, and we were a small mixed
practice, so think James Harriet.

Yeah.

And so we did everything from, you know,
pets to you know, an hour later doing a

cesarean on a cow to going and shooting a
pony that's been hit on the mos, or, you

know, so this incredibly varied existence
and a very trusted part of the community.

And so I was able to to be in that, in,
in that space, in the, in the farming

space, grew up going to young farmers.

All yeah, so, so a very a very
enjoyable and, and, you know,

hugely rewarding time of my life.

And then.

But, but, but I was, you know, it's
interesting you, as you talk about

that, that painting I can remember a
day that on the Thursday I was called

or we were called to a fox in a snare.

Okay.

So I drove across the mall.

I was, I was 17 years old.

I've not, not long past my driving
test, I drove across the mall.

I found where the, where
the fox was in a snare.

Okay.

So I climb up the hedge and I
can, and I see the fox in a snare.

You know, I have to approach this
fox, you know, it's, it's struggling.

It's it, and I had to make a decision
to, to get it to asphyxiate itself,

to the point where I can get close
enough to get the new soft around

its neck and, and see what happens.

I didn't have any choices there.

So, so I do that and it, and I
take the, I take the snare from

around its neck and, you know,
eventually it gets up and it's gone.

On the Saturday I go hunting on my
horse and we go out and kill foxes.

So,

Rupert Isaacson: which hunt, by
the way, which dartmore hunt,

Nick Viney: am I allowed to say that?

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Nick Viney: Yeah.

Spoons.

Spoons and westmores.

I've hunted with the spoons.

Have you?

Ah yeah.

So they're, you know,
right on my doorstep here.

Mm-hmm.

And never thought a thing about it.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,

Nick Viney: never
thought a think about it.

It really, and we never did.

We, we never, we never
questioned those things.

We did, we did all the
work for the hunt for free.

Yet we would be patching up wildlife
and, and, and animals all week.

So, so completely unbeknown to me
there are these, these odd cognitive

dissonance then maybe setting,
setting themselves up in, in myself.

And it really wasn't until
I had, I had my own kids.

I actually had three
kids under a year old.

And that was pretty incapacitating in
terms of what, what else you can do

with your life at that time and, and
our land here, we destocked everything

and our land here was able to have a
rest for the first time in my lifetime.

And for the first probably, you
know, it'd been conventionally

found for however long.

And we saw orchids for the first time
and then I started to think about how.

You know, how what I was doing was
impacting and how is that possible that

spending my entire life on this place,
how, how I never seen that plant before.

And I just, you know, and
then I got into permaculture

design and holistic management.

So really looking at energy systems
and the flow of energy through,

you know, through your land and
holistic management obviously.

And, and that really, that
got me into planned grazing.

So, and planned grazing was
the key for me to understand.

I didn't have to be, I didn't
have to have no animals.

And.

Rewilding wasn't a thing then.

I could actually understand how
these animals worked in nature and

then play those animals to their
strengths and then actually restore

the land using those animals.

And so that's what I've
been doing ever since.

And they're absolutely fanatic grazer.

I, I mean, I, I just love, how

Rupert Isaacson: do you digest the grass?

Sorry, I'm just kidding.

Nick Viney: Exactly.

And I just, yeah, I just, there
is an absolute joy, not just

for me, but for those animals.

When you move animals daily you know,
when you see those pictures of those

films of those dairy cows when they've
been let out for, you know, for the

first time since last autumn, and,
you know, they're bucking and kicking

and everyone's really happy, that's
every single day for these animals

because it's completely clean grass.

No one has shot over it.

It's all, you know,
it's, it's just pristine.

And it's pristine every single day.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, if, if they're
living on it every single day,

how are they not shitting on it?

Nick Viney: Because you
move them every day.

They move to fresh pasture every day.

So, so what you, what you do is
you replicate natural systems.

So in our case, we don't have,
you know, we've killed everything.

We don't have wolves left in this country,
which would keep all these herba wars

bunched up and moving in this slight fear
state, which is, you know, why horses

are so good at bolting because, you
know, they have that flight instinct.

We don't have the, the, the carnivals now.

So, so we have to replicate that, and
we do that with a bit of electricity

either side, and so we keep 'em bunched.

So, which, which affects not, it's
not just about it's not just about

the fear state and there, and there is
no fear state, particularly they, you

know, they learn within three days.

I don't go near that fence.

I don't go near that fence.

And, and I'm, I've lost my thread here.

Rupert Isaacson: I talked about shit.

Sorry.

It's, it's because Yeah, no, you're,
you're, you're, you're saying you're

replicating the way that the animals
would move through the land naturally

as opposed to in an unnatural way.

And this of course regenerates the
land and this I completely get and

so, you know, when I flippantly
said, well, how are they not, why

are they on pristine grass every day?

That's not being shot on, that wasn't
quite as flippant as it sounded.

Okay.

Because I think you, you
need to understand that most

listeners wouldn't know that.

From what you described, you were
necessarily moving the stock every

day to make sure that the land gets
grazed as evenly as it would if the

livestock were ranging across it
in a natural way with the pressure

of predators and or just moving.

Because when you eat down one
area, you move to the next and you

eat down other, you know, and we
are used to seeing animals either

static in fields or in sheds.

And if, if they're in sheds,
actually we don't see them.

We're unaware of it.

You drive past those sheds, you
never know that those pigs are there.

You never know that
those chickens are there.

You see the, you see the corn fields
on either side, but you wouldn't

know the factory farm that was
going in because there's a big sign

saying 10,000 cows in cow fits here.

That exactly.

Obviously people don't wanna,
don't wanna advertise that fact.

So the reason I asked that was because
it's, it's not necessarily known.

And what's interesting with grazing
is that people assume, I think quite

rationally that that is how farmers
would graze their fields, right?

You would graze down a field,
you'd move your animals to another

one, they'd graze that field,
you'd move them to another one.

So why isn't that the norm?

I.

Nick Viney: I, as far as I'm
concerned, it's, it's shepherding.

We, we are no longer good shepherds.

Mm.

And I, and I mean that in the, in
the biblical sense is it because it's

Rupert Isaacson: too labor intensive
now, you know that people don't actually

have the money and they don't have the
extended families living on the land.

So you've either gotta employ people or
you've gotta have them in your own family.

People have neither anymore.

So the animals are more like to sort
of sit where they are because you

haven't got the time to move them, or

Nick Viney: possibly.

But I think, you know, what have we done?

We've, we, we've, we've, we've removed
shepherds, you know, because all our

huts now go for glamping, don't they?

I mean, you know, shepherd,

Rupert Isaacson: but also who
can afford to pay a shepherd,

Nick Viney: who can
afford to pay a shepherd.

But, but if, I mean, can you think
of a better job than being a shepherd

than, than than herding all day?

I just, for me, and I guess this is why
I'm, you know, managed 20 years on the

range, was, was because, well, I, I'm
very I'm very calmed by the sound of

grazing animals for me, when I, you know,
if I go anywhere, if I, if I leave home

for a long time, I will seek out, you
know, the sound of animals cutting or, or

it's, it is a very restful thing for me.

But, but, but actually I, I think.

As a shepherd.

And I feel there's a,

if you imagine the land as the garden,
I mean land with a capital LI don't, I

don't like to call it the land because
I feel like land is, is a thing.

It's an, it's an alive thing.

It's a bio, it's a, it's
like a bigger version of us.

You know, that goes all around
the outside of the, the world.

For us, in order for us to have a place
in that, I, I feel like shepherding

is a, is a very important role.

A very important role.

When you say shepherding, you don't

Rupert Isaacson: just mean sheep, right?

You mean

Nick Viney: No.

Okay.

In general.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

I

Nick Viney: mean, I mean, herding, herding
and that could be, you know, that could be

pigs, that could be, you know, my perfect
little, my dream scenario is going around

helping people restore their land with my
little you know, precision grazing ponies.

A couple of, couple of
mini cows, a co and a pig.

And the odd chicken coming up
behind, or Turkey just scraping the,

you know, the shit around because
we don't have any birds left.

So, but, but coming back to
the, to the human place in it.

But we, especially in the UK where we
don't have predators, we have to keep the

stock off the trees or else, guess what?

We won't have any trees.

And, and this is where we're at.

We have coming back to that aesthetic.

We think that you have trees in
woods, up to this fence here,

and then you have pasture.

This is a dead end.

If this is the way you,
you think land behaves.

This is a dead end because
how do trees reproduce?

They have to roll out into the landscape.

They have to move in this dynamic
way because they, there's a tree here

and, and, and it drops its babies
here just into the, just into off the

skirts, off of the canopy where there
should be brambles to receive these

baby trees to then let them grow up.

Then this tree dies down
here, falls down, whatever.

And this tree tree comes up
here without the predators.

And because we have an aversion to
scrub, scrub is not a dirty word,

but we cannot tolerate anything
that stings us or prickles us.

Then there is no way
these trees can get away.

So, you know, in, in, in a landscape where
most of a land completely shaped by sheep

and sheep farming, 85% of which we export

85% of timber, we import.

We can't grow our own trees, you
know, when the floods come, what

are we building our life raft with?

Rupert Isaacson: I'm gonna ask you a
couple of devil's advocate questions

because I think they bear explanation,
but they need to be posed in a way that

allows for context, if that makes sense.

So the part of England that I partly
grew up in Leicestershire, big

horse area, big hunting area very
much livestock, large livestock,

so beef, cattle, sheep, big hedges.

So I love hedges.

I would argue that England is a forested
landscape that the miles and miles and

miles of hedge rows, which now die.

For example, I live in Germany where
you don't see them, but we have big

blocks of forest here in Germany.

Different type of land management.

But those snaking hedge systems
through the uk, assuming they haven't

been rubbed up, are in fact forests.

It's just that instead of covering
a blanket canopy or a Savannah,

which as you might find in say
a park they are yes, contained.

But there's so many thousands of miles
of them that as you know, along the

side of each one, you get what's called
woodland edge, where the thorn and

the larger trees that are in the edge
meet the grassland or the cropland.

And in there, of course you get
a big insect wildflower, narrow

corridor, but nonetheless, an
intense corridor which supports a

lot of wildlife and so on and so on.

So are we not actually still a forest
landscape in the uk, but just now one

that has been shaped by humans in a
slightly loving sort of a way that

still is biodiverse, or am I wrong?

Nick Viney: Well, you're
wrong about the biodiverse.

I mean, the UK is, is the most
nature depleted country in

Europe, not in Europe anymore.

So, so as much as I absolutely love
our hedgerows, and I completely

agree that they are they are the
last remaining corridors, but we

stock fence right up to those walls.

If we're lucky enough to have hedges, you
know, we, we stock fence right up to them.

And, and so nothing, I mean that's,
I was on a site yesterday and yeah,

you could see, you could see beautiful
emergence of meadow suite and dog violets

yesterday and, you know, and inch this
side of the wire and it's just nothing.

It's just, just rye grass, you know.

So yeah, they are, they are fantastic,
but the, the bar is very, very low.

And so, and of course one of the things,
and one, one area where farmers are

judged harshly, and this is amongst
their peers, is is through tidiness.

Mm-hmm.

And, you know, you are considered to be
a poor farmer and that would be poor in

both senses of the word, poor as in your
crap, and poor as in you don't have enough

fuel to be cutting those, you know, to,
to be trimming those hedges, you know,

within an inch of the top of that bank.

Yeah.

Now you, you know, these
hedges are offering.

A massive amount.

They are desperately trying
to deliver fruit nuts.

Yeah.

Shelter, you know, they year on year, they
push back and they'll grow another meter.

And, you know, and, and every November
will come along and we'll smack 'em down.

And, and this for me is just,
you know, it, it really is

nuts, you know, because northern
hemisphere, massively high rainfall.

One thing we are really
good at growing is trees.

So, so when I reimagine a, a farm
or, or a landscape for someone, it's,

it's always going to incorporate
fruit and nut trees and livestock,

you know, silver pasture type thing.

So, so, you know, yes, it's a,
it's, it can be slightly contrived

looking to see all these, say,
say we wanna put trees on contour.

But I'm prepared to go with that
aesthetic if it means we get more

trees into the landscape and we can
still you know, fairly reasonably

push a mob of cattle through.

What I'm trying to avoid is, is, is
driving on the landscape as well.

Rupert Isaacson: Is your, is your farm,
how, how, how many acres is your farm?

Nick Viney: It's only 40 acres.

Okay.

Actually, we should talk about, we
should talk about, 'cause we, you

know, you asked me, was I a farmer?

I said yes.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Nick Viney: Now in this area.

You know, without doubt there
would be people here that say, oh

yeah, but she's not a real farmer.

Rupert Isaacson: Sure.

Nick Viney: So I wanna know
what, what's a real farmer?

Rupert Isaacson: Well,

Nick Viney: is it
somebody who you know, do

Rupert Isaacson: you produce food off
your land for sale to other people?

Nick Viney: Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

I think for me, that would define it.

Nick Viney: And, and fiber.

So we try and use all, all the animal.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

And so describe to me now, okay.

Presumably when you inherited the farm
or when you came into custody of the

farm, you inherited what I would know
from the English landscape of a patchwork

of semi rectangular fields intersected
by either hedges or banks or walls.

And 'cause you're there on dartmoor, for
those listeners who dunno what Dartmoor

is, Dartmoor is one of the wilder areas
of Southern England where it gives way

to open moorland, upland, low mountain
ranges that are somewhat wild by English

standards, including we have herds of
wild ponies up there and things like that.

And a bit of a sort of hostile
landscape above a certain altitude.

So it protects its integrity to some
degree, although probably it ought to all

be covered in forest and isn't, but pay.

But you would've inherited that
patchwork that we all love to see.

So how's it look differently now
that you, so you like trees, what?

Have you done with trees on your place?

And how can we picture
that and imagine that?

And how does that look different
to what was there before?

And why isn't that attacking the
integrity of the English landscape madam?

You know, talk to us about that.

Nick Viney: Yeah.

Well, it would be classed as
bloody untidy if you ask my mother.

Yeah, she's, you know,
she's, she's, she's good now.

She gets it.

She gets it now.

But

Rupert Isaacson: have you fenced
off areas for trees to grow?

Have you actively planted trees?

Are you letting trees rewild themselves?

What, what's the, what's the philosophy?

Nick Viney: So my, yes, we've planted
some trees fruit trees mainly and walnuts.

But my holy grail in terms of what
I want to be as a land manager

is someone who allows trees
to, to reproduce on their own.

'cause no shit.

They've done that for years.

And how you gonna do that intensively

Rupert Isaacson: grazing your
land enough to be commercial

Nick Viney: years?

You have to mob graze your cows and you
have to be, you, you have to be creative.

In how you, in how you do that.

So, so if, if the only thing you can
stomach is going in straight lines

with, with your electric fences, then
sure you're gonna run into problems.

I mean, you can come, you know, why not
for a start just bring them two meters off

that hedge and give those, you know, give
that hedge the opportunity to reproduce.

Well,

Rupert Isaacson: because again, delve
as a advocate, someone would say,

well, if I do that, then I'm losing
X amount of hectares and therefore

that's losing X amount of money.

So what's your answer to that?

If somebody says, well, I can't afford to,

Nick Viney: because most people
are grazing extensively, and, and

your carrying capacity will go up
at least three times when you start

putting your animals in a mob.

And that back, why, why back fencing?

Why

Rupert Isaacson: is that more?

Nick Viney: Is that because the,
everything about the way the animal

behaves is com is then complimentary
to the landscape from what goes in the

front end to what comes in the back
end to how their feet move on the soil

to how then when you move them on, you
don't come back there for a long time.

So rest is a massive part of this.

So you have to, you have to understand
and appreciate, appreciate rest.

It's just like, it's just like us.

You know, you can, you can train and
train and train and train, but part

of that training you have to have a
recovery time and or else you don't

mill, build muscle in the right way.

Or you, or you or you succumb to injury.

The, exactly the same thing is happening
in land and at landscape scale.

It is wearing out,

Rupert Isaacson: indeed.

You've got 40 acres,
you've got cows on it.

If you want to rest those bits of
land so that they regenerate in that

way, how long must you rest them for?

And how many cows can you
have on that 40 acres?

Nick Viney: So like a lot
of these things, it depends.

So I want to, I'm mainly floodplain
here, so I don't want to be in a

position A where I've got too much
stock over winter and b I don't

wanna be putting stuff in sheds.

'cause if I've got anything in
a shed, I've got a massive pile

of shit at the end of the winter
and what am I gonna do with that?

I've got a mile stretch of river.

Anything that goes onto this land is
going to be straight into the river.

So, you know, so when I say it depends,
what I mean is it is really complex stuff.

So anyone who thinks that
managing that, but what

Rupert Isaacson: do you do?

Nick Viney: Simple.

Okay.

So we, we tend not to over winter.

So I will run stock on, I will, I
will fatten stuff because we can

grow a phenomenal amount of grass
in the summer and then kill it off.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

And how much, how many stock will
you have there in the summer?

Nick Viney: It depends.

Maybe only four bullocks
and, and 20 sheep.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Or,

Nick Viney: or we, or we go a whole year
because if, if, if I, if I can, I would

like to give this ground a year off.

It's only my, my sort of, you
know, addiction to keeping animals.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, that was
gonna be my question, given that, so

you, you couldn't possibly with that
number of sheep and that number of

bullocks make a quote unquote living
in the modern sense of the word.

So, you are, you're obviously,
we haven't gone in yet to.

The other ways you're making a living.

We haven't gone into how you
make a living as an artist.

We haven't gone into how you make a living
as a regenerative, you know, land person.

And rewilding, which I'm gonna go into
and I'm gonna ask you about in a minute.

Rewilding is obviously a hot topic
right now, and it should be, A lot

of people want to know about it, but
it's a misunderstood topic, I feel.

But you, you are diverse.

You're also farming people.

You, you, you're glamping.

And I'm not saying, and this is exactly
of course, what one ought to do, but

my question is, well then as a Rew
Wilder and so on, given that in the

paleolithic landscape where you are,
it probably would've been somewhat open

canopy, Beachwood, Beachwood, I should
imagine, with some grazing planes from

large ungulates, you know, interspersing
that why not go back to that?

Why, why farm at all?

Nick Viney: I, I, yeah.

I ask myself that a lot and I

Rupert Isaacson: surely that's what
the land wants at the end of the day.

I mean, if you left it alone completely,
that's more or less what it would do.

No,

Nick Viney: I've got, I've got one
paddock, call it a paddock which

we haven't grazed for 40 years.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Nick Viney: And I'm just,
and I'm just, it's like.

It's like what the rewers would pray
for, but I'm doing it in reverse, so now

I've got a completely scrubbed over area.

And

Rupert Isaacson: with what?

With Hawthorne?

Blackthorn?

Nick Viney: With mainly with Bramble.

Uhhuh, yeah.

But with, with a certain amount
of blackthorn, willow ash trees.

I mean, you know, massive s
and this is all self colonized.

Rupert Isaacson: You haven't
gone in there and planted it.

Nick Viney: We haven't done anything.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Nick Viney: So, so then I thought, right.

I, I wanna actually just reclaim this a
little bit and just start sculpting it.

And so I'm gonna start put
putting these ponies in.

So I,

but I, but I want to main is it
is a massive songbird breeding

area, as you can imagine.

Mm-hmm.

You know, it's really, there is a direct
correlation between the amount of bramble

you've got, the amount of scrub you've
got, and how many songbirds you have.

Yeah.

If, you know, if we were
ha if we had a, just

Rupert Isaacson: explain why that is, for
people who might not know the correlation.

Nick Viney: Because if we had a,
a full ecosystem, say we would

have, we would have wildcats.

So what we think of in the UK
as, as, as a Scottish Wildcat

it, it, it's not Scottish.

We just drove it to
Scotland and not in a car.

We, we just killed everything.

It had a price put on, its on its head.

So the brambles

Rupert Isaacson: will give you
safe cover from small predators?

Nick Viney: Exactly.

So cats will not pounce through,
through, through bramble.

So really, really safe nursery.

You know, not just for young
trees, but for young, young birds.

So that's why s

Rupert Isaacson: eat.

Nick Viney: Exactly.

Yeah.

Okay.

And, and also under brambles the soil
is, is the best soil you'll find.

So

Rupert Isaacson: is that because,
are they nitrogen fixers?

Blackberry bushes,

Nick Viney: it's not, I don't know
whether it's nitrogen and I, and I don't

I never it's much more complex than that.

What I would say is the
microrisal connections under

brambles are really phenomenal.

And so the soil health you
know, is always just fantastic.

So, so in times of carbon
sequestration you know, fabulous.

So, so how do you, you're gonna drive

Rupert Isaacson: some large ungulates
into it in the way that, that's exactly

Nick Viney: what I'm doing.

Rupert Isaacson: Paleolithic.

Why not some cows as well, because
they would've been a rocks.

They would've been wild captaining.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Nick Viney: Exactly.

So, so at the moment we're just coming
out of, we're just coming out of winter.

And so there is only hairy little
ponies here, and particularly hairy

ponies with, with, with long feathers
are fantastic for, for this job.

So I go in and if I think, okay, I
wanna make a a very, and for those

Rupert Isaacson: listeners,
feathers are not bird feathers.

They are the hairs that grow on
the lower part of the horse's leg.

If they are shaggy horses, which are
designed to go through rough areas.

Okay.

Yeah.

Nick Viney: So they're like armor plated.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Nick Viney: And, and so they
will, you know, happily and the,

and kind of small ponies with big
feet and feathery, feathery legs

are really, really good for this.

In, in the rewilding sort of, field
ex mos have become very popular.

It's, it tends to be a bit,
a bit fashionable for me.

I'm.

It's, it's in the same
way as in other things.

It's not the cow, it's the how.

And this is, you know, we don't have
to be specific on the pony type.

Wait, talk about

Rupert Isaacson: my mother.

Sorry.

Nick Viney: It's a, it's a, it's a
pony and it's gonna behave like a

pony, you know, if you let it near
trees, it's gonna strip the bark.

It will eat very close to
the ground if you leave.

Right.

Rupert Isaacson: It will create wallows,
it will dig up the ground a bit.

Yeah.

Nick Viney: And it'll also,
and these things with, with

hair will plow through ramble.

So all I have to do is I, I don't want
dead, I don't want any straight lines.

There are no, you know, nature
doesn't really do straight lines.

I'm about creating edge.

So at the moment I've got this big
you know, field of, of brambles.

And now I wanted to turn
those into islands of life.

So we still have lots of, we
still have lots of loads for the

birds to, to nest and to feed.

But I want to be able to sort
of per ambulate through this.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

And presumably those brambles would serve
as nurseries for hardwood trees too.

Yeah.

Nick Viney: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: So eventually in
your perfect world, it would end up

looking like a paleolithic savanna.

Nick Viney: Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: More or less, right?

Nick Viney: Yes.

And then, but, but, but also, so
as those big trees, you've gotta

have the succession, you've gotta
have big trees and medium trees

and little trees and tiny trees.

And you, so you have to, so the
landscape is doing this all the time

and, and this is why land ownership.

You are always gonna be struggling because
you've only got this amount of land.

And so, you know, you've, you wanna do
this there and you, and you, you can't

get your head around how, how on earth
are you going to have these islands?

And then they're not only islands,
they're moving islands, you know,

because they've gotta creep around
and grow big trees and little trees.

So I, it's complex and it's brilliant.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's interesting,
it's interesting because I was 20 years in

Texas and the, the part of Texas is huge.

There's many ecosystems.

So the particular part of Texas that
we have written, it's Central Texas,

which is around the Austin area.

And that's what you
call post Oak Savannah.

And interestingly it's a landscape
that looks almost identical to

say the Southern Spanish, Southern
Portuguese Post Oak Savannahs.

Yeah.

But it looked like that before the
whitey showed up with their cows

because bison were grazing it and
basically doing the same effect.

And so what you've got, what you
get is these very big oak trees

that put their branches quite low
and then that creates a shade camp.

'cause it gets very, very hot there.

Creates a shade canopy where animals
do come and shelter from the shade.

But there's seasons where
they don't go because it's.

More temperate.

And then under those things you
get a lot of thorn coming up.

And in that thorn you get the young trees.

And that's how when one tree collapses
and dies, the other ones can come up.

But the look of the thing,
generation to generation tends

to look like an English park.

Large stately trees.

Yeah.

Because you can't, you're not really
aware of those younger ones coming

up because they're coming up sort of
slightly camouflaged by that canopy

with some areas of thicket as well.

And particularly in the, in the
swampy areas or, you know, things.

What's interesting about that landscape
is it's basically pre-Columbian landscape.

It looks basically the same as it did
before the colonists showed up there.

And it's, that would've
been 500 years ago.

'cause it's Spanish, early
Spanish conquest close to Mexico.

And it's made that shift to a European

Nick Viney: aesthetic

Rupert Isaacson: livestock thing.

It's not really farming, it's livestock.

It, it's more herding really, it's
cattle ranching without losing much of

its biological integrity unless they
decide to put a shopping mall and a

McDonald's on it, and then they can like
do an entire county in like a weekend.

And that's awful.

But as long as they don't
do that, it's as it was.

What's what's interesting to me about.

England is that we're better at preserving
the land than they are in the us.

Like one, one of the heartbreaking
things about living in the US is

that you can fall in love with the
landscape 'cause it's so beautiful.

And one year later, you know, some
that your neighbor can just flog that

for housing development and it's gone.

Boom.

There's no, there's no
conservation laws, nothing.

And they'll just go and bulldoze,
you know, a thousand year old trees.

It's, it's, it's, it's
really heartbreaking.

In the UK we are much, much better
at preserving the aesthetic of the

countryside, which I'm a great believer.

We need spiritually, we need
to be able to see that green.

We need to be able to get out of
a city quickly and see it, and if

possible, walk on it and touch it.

Which in Texas you can't
'cause they'll shoot you.

So people don't feel any kind of you know,
attachment to the land because they don't,

they didn't grow up playing under that
tree or whatever because it's so weirdly,

I think there's some things we get really
right in the uk with land ownership

give, we, we have large landowners, but
quite a lot of ac public access to the

land, even though the ramblers would say
that they don't just go live in Texas.

And you'll be like, actually we
have a lot of, you know, and the

worst that will happen is if you
stray from the footpath in the uk.

Someone might yell at you, but
they're not gonna shoot you, you know?

But they probably won't even
yell at you, you know, and

there are plenty of footpaths.

I.

Now we're talking about
Rewilding in the uk.

And so you look at a landscape and you
say, well, how does the water want to go?

Or how do the trees want to go?

You've now helped farmers in the
UK to sort of go towards this.

Are we going to lose this whimsical
landscape that we know and love

of the patchwork field system and
the the hedgerows and all of that?

Whether people argue that it's not
bi biodiverse enough or not, it's

beautiful and, and it's there and
at least we have a countryside to

argue about, which is a good thing.

Or are we gonna, is it gonna be
replaced by something else, or are we

gonna have kind of a mishmash of both?

What, what are we gonna see
in the next 20 to 50 years?

Nick Viney: I think we're gonna see a more
beautiful, an even more beautiful version.

So, you mentioned the word green and
how, how people it's important for

people to get out into the green.

What we've gotta remember is.

Yeah.

And, and we, and we are, we are wired
to recognize green as this, you know,

calming influence on us, aren't we?

And also

Rupert Isaacson: biodiverse, we, we see it
as, I think when, when we know that, when

I say biodiverse, I mean food producing.

It mean we feel calm inside when
we know, oh, we're in a place

that can support life basically.

Nick Viney: Yeah.

Unfortunately, ryegrass, which is that
holy kind of shade of green if, you know,

if you, there are certain colors that that
land should be at certain times of year.

Right.

And, and that kind of blue, th green
in spring is, is really a reflection

of the, the awful, awful amount of
nitrates that are on there and really

burning through the soil health and
really having detrimental effects on,

on not only the cows that eat them,
eat that, which, you know, obviously

they're burning out within three years.

You know, that's a very, very
short life expectancy for a cow.

You know, it would naturally live
well, well into its teens and beyond.

So, so it's nuanced is what I'm saying.

Green does not necessarily mean healthy.

What actually is a much
healthier landscape is, is lots

of different shades of green.

And, and to, to not.

Not expect to see the land in
this very linear sort of you know,

flat feel to a 90 degree hedge
if you're lucky to have a hedge.

And then, you know, that's, you
know, we've talked about clipping

those hedges off very, very tight.

What, what you could imagine in
a more abundant landscape and,

and with abundance comes beauty,
real beauty that we recognize and

it literally resonates within us.

So when you go into, I've got a nice
bit of floodplain Maya down there,

and when that is just humming within
insects and, and you, you just dunno

where to walk because you can feel
under your feet that every footstep you

are treading and squishing something.

There is something that
resonates inside you.

And really I hope I would like everyone
to get an opportunity to experience

that because when you experience that
and, and I'm someone who is sort of not

religious and and not sort of, I wouldn't
have classed myself as spiritual, but

there is something unmistakably moving.

When you experience those
kind of those kind of.

Ecosystems.

And, and as to what that would
look like now in our, in our green

and pleasant land, I think our
hedges are a great place to start.

So they, you know, they're
still old trees in the hedges.

So, so what, what I'm planning on doing
here is, is where I've got these lovely

hedges, I just wanna knock a hole
at one end and a hole at the other,

and then that, that whole line then
actually becomes a big circle in itself.

I see.

So the

Rupert Isaacson: cows
could just rotate through.

Nick Viney: So, so, yeah.

So we'll just You keep the

Rupert Isaacson: hydro

Nick Viney: Yeah, exactly.

Rupert Isaacson: As you know, if
you followed any of my work, I'm

an autism dad and we have a whole
career before this podcast in helping

people with neurodivergence, either
who are professionals in the field.

Are you a therapist?

Are you a caregiver?

Are you a parent?

Or are you somebody with neurodivergence?

When my son, Rowan, was
diagnosed with autism in 2004,

I really didn't know what to do.

So I reached out for mentorship, and
I found it through an amazing adult

autistic woman who's very famous, Dr.

Temple Grandin.

And she told me what to do.

And it's been working so
amazingly for the last 20 years.

That not only is my son basically
independent, but we've helped

countless, countless thousands
of others reach the same goal.

Working in schools, working at
home, working in therapy settings.

If you would like to learn this
cutting edge, neuroscience backed

approach, it's called Movement Method.

You can learn it online, you
can learn it very, very simply.

It's almost laughably simple.

The important thing is to begin.

Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr.

Grandin and see what results can follow.

Go to this website, newtrailslearning.

com Sign up as a gold member.

Take the online movement method course.

It's in 40 countries.

Let us know how it goes for you.

We really want to know.

We really want to help people like
me, people like you, out there

live their best life, to live
free, ride free, see what happens.

Nick Viney: Because the, the, you
know, why would we set ourselves back?

There's, you know, there's very
old trees and especially stuff like

asht trees, you know, which are
dropping like flies, you know, a

middle-aged asht tree now, dead gone.

The only ones left standing for now are
the you know, are the really old ones.

So, you know, a lot of these tree
diseases, you know, we experienced

this in the seventies with the elms
and going, which dramatically changed

the, the way our landscape looked.

Mm-hmm.

You know, we have to appreciate
that with the ash trees, you know,

with no baby asht trees coming up.

This is a, this is a major problem.

We don't, we don't really see that yet.

And, and I do worry about, you
know, what's ne what's coming

down the road for the trees.

Next.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, I presume that
your efforts with Rewilding, which

I want to talk about now, might hold
some of the keys to this, right?

So you've been involved, I know, in the
reintroduction of the beaver to the uk.

And at the risk of making
27 do entendre jokes.

I just want to lit tip my hat to the,
all the do undre beaver jokes, so I don't

have to make one every time we say beaver.

However, the European beaver was as we
know, wiped out largely in western Europe,

almost completely in western Europe.

And that led and then they went east, you
know, into the Baltic and into Russia,

and then they depleted them there,
and then they went to the Americas.

And the fur trade in the Americas
was what opened up the northern

end of, of, of the Americas.

But now for the first time in
four or 500 years, people like

you are bringing beavers back into
the landscape of Western Europe.

Let's talk about that.

You talked about how water would flow.

We know beavers and water are synonymous.

Why bring back beavers?

What do they do for the landscape?

Why did they get rid of
them in the first place?

And then let's talk from that
species towards other lost species.

Okay, so why beavers?

Why, why, why did you get involved
in, in the reintroduction of them?

Nick Viney: So f first off I just
wanna say that really there's, there's

three people responsible for bringing
back the beaver to the UK and who

we all need to be grateful for.

Derek Gao rashe Campbell
Palmer, and Ghar Schwab.

So, do those names

Rupert Isaacson: again slowly so that
people can write 'em down if they want to.

Nick Viney: Derek Gao.

Rupert Isaacson: Derek Gao.

GGOW.

Nick Viney: Yeah.

Hin Campbell.

Palmer

Rupert Isaacson: Hin.

Campbell Palmer.

I dunno how to spell hin, but
Campbell Palmer, I think people can,

Nick Viney: R-R-O-I-S-I-N.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Rashe Campbell Palmer.

And,

Nick Viney: and Gerhard Schwab.

Rupert Isaacson: Gerhard,
that sounds German.

Nick Viney: It is, yeah.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Gerhard Schwab.

S-C-H-W-A-B.

Nick Viney: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah.

In the uk or in, in No,

Nick Viney: he's in Bavaria.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Right.

Nick Viney: Yeah.

And the, these guys are, sorry.

These, these guys are they've, you
know, they have, we need to be great.

Very.

Why, why do we need to be grateful

Rupert Isaacson: to them?

What, what's the value of the beavers?

Nick Viney: So beavers, beavers are
known as a keystone species, and

that this means that the presence of
beavers in a, in an ecosystem has a

profound effect on every other species.

What, what the Beaver
offers is water security.

So without water security, we are nothing.

Rupert Isaacson: You
mean water conservation?

They keep water in a landscape.

Nick Viney: They keep
water in a landscape.

They purify water.

They slow water down.

So, so, beavers, beavers, willow and
water are, are this incredible sort

of you know, just that, that they
work together in this very nuanced

and, and beautiful, beautiful way.

If you've, if you get a
chance, watch beavers on Go.

Go on Beaver watch.

Come to Rewilding Cobes head.

Watch beavers at night.

Watch them working the incredible
way these, these creatures can hold

back water with only sticks and clay.

Now if you've, you know,
try and do it yourself.

Try and hold back water.

Try and create something, you know, and
these, and these dams can be 10 foot

high and holding back water and just
letting it come through very, very gently.

So what that does, and, and especially as
we shift into much more erratic weather

patterns, is it, is these storm surges.

These, these, so we have if you think
about what the UK looks like, we have

these uplands that are completely
naked, completely devoid of trees,

highest rainfalls in the country.

So it's like a bald head drops
all this water on it, what's

gonna happen to that water?

It just rushes off completely unimpeded,
getting faster and faster and faster.

And then just smashes everything out
the way as it goes down and out to sea.

Not only does it smash up all our
urban areas, but it takes thousands

of years worth of soil with it.

And in that soil, nothing can,
nothing can live in those waters.

Our salmon can't, you
know, they can't breed.

So, so the, the knock on effects
of having water, leaving the

land too quickly is huge.

Absolutely huge.

So we are in Devon, we've got maybe 2.4

meters of rain a year.

What's that?

I don't know.

Is that eight, nine feet?

I dunno.

This is a high rainfall area,
and we have to slow that water

down and in slowing it down.

And the beavers do this
all night for free.

Absolutely.

For free.

All as they ask is, can I have some trees?

And I, and I'll do the rest.

So we have to, we have to, it's not to put
it this way, it's not too many beavers.

It's too few trees per start.

Where did they go in the first place?

So, so we had, you know, we
had beavers throughout the uk.

But we hunted them all, every single one.

We killed them all.

And we did that because A, they have
this incredible fur, this incredible

double you know, double kind of very soft
under fur and beautiful, beautiful fur.

So, so like you said worldwide,
they've, they've been hunted.

But also they have this very interesting
relationship with willow and the tree

willow which contains salicylic acid.

Salicylic acid.

Rupert Isaacson: Aspirin

Nick Viney: is aspirin.

Exactly right.

And so we hunted the beaver for
its scent glands because of the

massive amounts of salicylic acid
in those, in that, in those glands.

And we use that medicinally
for hundreds of years.

So we just like, like all good
humans, you know, we just, castor

Rupert Isaacson: oil, cast oil

Nick Viney: castor.

Okay.

Yeah.

Not castor oil different.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Castor.

Yeah.

'cause castor is beaver in Latin, right?

Nick Viney: Yeah.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: And actually
in French still castor.

Yeah.

Nick Viney: Yeah.

So, so as we, you know, as we go
into these erratic climate you know,

climate change events, we're gonna
have massive rainfall events, but

we're also gonna have droughts.

So, so a way of steadying our water
cycle is very, very important.

And, and whereas, you know, we
certainly around where, where I am on

dartmore, you know, there, there would
be a ne very negative pushback on,

on free beaver release, for example.

I would predict.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Thanks.

I would predict that it give
it three years, five years max.

There will be, people will be fighting
to get beavers onto their land.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, this is,
this is actually a question.

So do you have beavers on your land now?

Nick Viney: No.

No, I don't.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Why not?

Nick Viney: They are a few
miles down, down river.

But

Rupert Isaacson: why, why not?

Why not?

Nick Viney: Why not re introduce them?

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Nick Viney: Basically because I don't, I
would've had to up until, up until very

recently, the last few weeks I would've
had to have put them in an enclosure.

And most people can't
afford a beaver enclosure.

It's very, very expensive to
put up that kind of fencing.

The

Rupert Isaacson: legislation has
changed You now no longer need I.

Nick Viney: The legislation has changed
and you can apply or have an expression

of interest for, for a free release.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And this is literally
like the last few weeks.

Nick Viney: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So this is historic now, but let's say
then you do that, are your neighbors

not gonna say, well, hold on, you know,
they're not gonna stay on your land.

They're gonna come on my land.

Nick Viney: Exactly.

So

Rupert Isaacson: what about that?

Nick Viney: So at the moment, and
this is the downfall of this new

legislation, there is mass celebrations,
but actually what it means is if

you, if you are the license holder
for this free release, then you are

liable for whatever happens either way.

So it, it's crazy.

This is an, an animal,
it is a native animal.

It is, you know, it is
supposed to be here.

Yes, we are going to
have to work around it.

We cannot farm right to the water's edge.

If you plant carrots within three meters
of, of the the water's edge, it's, you

know, either the beavers that they're
gonna come out and eat them or as,

as beavers makes dams, and they don't
tend to make dams across big rivers.

It's not, they're, they're not into that.

It's these little tributaries.

And then the water starts moving.

You know, once they put in a dam, then the
water starts moving laterally, both sides.

And and that's when they can come
into conflict with landowners.

It's, it's a beautiful, beautiful thing.

I mean, you put a drone up, it's
the most stunning environment

and the, the, the life that is.

Brought back by beavers.

You, you know, we have never ex,
there's nobody alive that has

experienced this other than people
that are living close to beavers now,

you know, we don't know on baseline.

Yeah, no, I, I,

Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

You are preaching to the converted here.

I know that though.

Okay.

You might be liable.

But I think, you know, and I both
know that there's quite a lot of

Gorilla Rewilding going on and people
taking it into their own hands to

just release things into the wild now.

And you know, quite recently
they found all those links as

in Scotland and rounded them up.

But I know people are
doing it with Beaver.

I know people are doing it with other
things, and I don't think that's

something that's gonna go away.

So, and honestly, I have to say I'm
on the sidelines with pom poms because

sooner or later it's gonna happen.

So one can get grumpy about
it and say, oh, it's terrible.

Or you can say, well, this is part
of historical process, which is

inevitable, and I'd rather see that
than ripping out hedges, frankly.

But talk to me about that.

So I, I presume that's going
to make that change, right?

Because let's say for example,
you did want to do a free release

of Beaver, but you think, oh, but
I'm, I can't afford the liability.

But then some beavers
show up on your land.

Because somebody, either they got out of
somebody else's place or there and you

decide, well, I didn't put them there,
therefore I can just leave them alone.

Are you still liable if one of these
self rewild or gorilla rewild beavers

shows up in your land and makes a
damn, are you supposed to therefore

go and kill it to protect you?

Nick Viney: You can't kill them.

You can't kill them.

But what I mean is are you wouldn't matter
who you're supposed to, they're protected.

Are

Rupert Isaacson: you
still liable, basically?

Or can you say, look, it's got nothing
to do with me and it's outta my control.

Nick Viney: Yeah.

As far as I'm aware, you can, you
know, if, if you haven't put them

there, it's, you know, they are just
part of the fabric of the ecosystem.

They are protected.

They cannot, if you, if you know, you
are in big trouble, if you kill 'em now,

I'm not saying it's not gonna happen.

Right.

You know, look at, look at all the
birds of prey that are still persecuted.

You know, sure.

There's, there's gonna be, you know, as
Brits, we love killing stuff, don't we?

I mean, we have export.

Oh,

Rupert Isaacson: everybody.

We, that's not just the Brits, everybody.

Nick Viney: I just feel like, you
know, at, at a colonial level, we've,

we've got some pretty, you know,
some pretty strong history in this.

And this is very,

it's very much part of the, the,
you know, the fabric of the,

of living in the countryside.

What has, and that, that sort of.

That mindset has, has continued.

But the, the things that have been
available, you know, to, to, to be

killed are are less and less and
less that really there's only foxes.

The only reason we have Red Fox in the
UK is because we kept them to hunt them.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

We, we, we created Super foxes.

Yeah, yeah.

Basically we, we, we promoted their habit.

Well, but again, devils have
got, we have actually a lot of

quote unquote game animals in
the UK for the very same reason.

So, you know, our partridges are
better in the UK than they are in

Europe because we like to shoot them,
obviously have a lot of pheasant.

I know that people raise them, you
know, in pens, but there's also a lot

of wild pheasant 'cause they go feral.

There are graphs on the mos.

There are, you know, and as you say this
is because people like to kill 'em hairs

in the fields and so on, but they don't
want to kill them to eradicate them.

They want to kill them to
have a relationship with them.

And this is, you know, having lived with
hunter-gatherers, I grew up fox hunting.

I don't do it anymore.

And I can tell you an interesting
story about how and why I gave

up, but I would say that it, I.

Is responsible for my environmentalism
because it was something that brought

me into relationship with having to
look after habitat as a young boy.

We hedged, we looked after the
hedgerows, we looked after the

spinnings because we wanted foxes.

Yeah.

And there was knock on effects
for a lot of other wildlife.

And we wouldn't use chemicals and that
sort of thing for the same reason.

But there's, so, to my mind, there's
nothing wrong with having a relationship

with hunting because, or let's say
if you think it's wrong, it's gonna

happen anyway because it's in humans,
because we are hunter-gatherers.

So I do respect someone's philosophy
that they don't want to, or they feel

it's wrong, but it's gonna happen because
that is how we've always related to that.

So if we're going to have this, surely
then these new rewild species that are

gonna come in are also going to be hunted
or surely must be hunted, or we won't be

in any kind of relationship with them.

That's authentic.

And then how do we dance around that?

'cause I think there's a, a difference,
again, between hunting and extermination.

Extermination is a whole
other thing, right?

But how are we gonna
dance through all of this?

Nick Viney: Well, how, how
do we know what, which is

the last beaver for a start?

I mean, how do you know?

It's like who chopped down
the last tree on Dartmore?

We just, you know, we don't
really pay attention to, to

those, to those sorts of things.

And, and I think in terms of
ecosystem restoration, then you have

to build up a massive population,

Rupert Isaacson: right?

Nick Viney: A healthy population right
before you then put yourself in a position

where then you can start thinking about
culling out young males unhealthy.

So, so we're a long way from that.

And, you know, just, and look at
the deer population so, so equal

to our sheep population in the uk.

You know, the, the trees have a
double whammy and double nemesis.

You know, the deer, the outta
control deer population in the uk.

So, you know, a little Scots
Pine, for example, Scotland,

you know, Scott's Pine this big.

Is it a year old?

You look at it closely,
it could be 15 years old.

And it's still this big because it's just
had its head taken off year after year

after year, and yet it's still trying.

So until we get those, you know,
the, these, these massive sort of

oversteer problems under top, but
we do hunt a lot of deer, right?

Rupert Isaacson: We, we do
shoot a lot of deer in the uk,

Nick Viney: not nearly enough.

Rupert Isaacson: But how would
we, how would you possibly shoot

more deer than we do already?

You'd have to have like everyone
walking around with a gun.

Nick Viney: I think, I think, well,
I dunno about that, but I would

certainly like to see us shift away
from industrial pig and poultry

and into wild venison and, and, and
these things aren't set in right, but

Rupert Isaacson: how, like really you
must have thought it through a bit bit.

I'm quite intrigued.

Well,

Nick Viney: I, I, I know someone who
has a who has a butchery business and

they have so much deer coming into them
from, from, you know, guys out stalking.

You are kind of, you're getting
into, you're talking about more

Rupert Isaacson: stalkers, you're
talking about more hunters, basically.

You would need more hunters
than we have currently.

Nick Viney: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Nick Viney: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: What's
the likelihood of that?

Nick Viney: I think it,
it's, the reason I'm

Rupert Isaacson: asking you is
this question is going somewhere.

Nick Viney: I think it's the only okay.

So, so whatever I'm saying here and now
I think is relevant to here and now.

I'm not saying it's a forever solution.

What I'm saying is we have an, we
have an explosion of deer population,

so some native, a lot not and.

But those are, that's a relatively
clean, a very, I would say, a

very clean source of protein.

So if, if we were, then I'm with you.

If we were then harvesting those and
that could positively impact our tree

you know, our tree, lack of trees.

Then for me, for now, that's a
good, that's a good solution.

Rupert Isaacson: Should we
have fewer deer or fewer sheep?

Nick Viney: Both.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

If sheep, and we were looking at a
healthy UK ecosystem, I presume that

you would go to any part of the UK
and see a relative profusion of road

deer, some big-ish herds of red deer
moving through the landscape and, okay.

We have people say fallow or not,
we're introduced by the Romans.

But given that that's
2000 years ago, okay.

I think we could sort of say that
they're naturalized and then we

got the ones that are from Asia.

We got the M Jackson, the Chinese water
deer, but they're not gonna go away.

But you and I both know when you drive
through the English countryside, you

do not see a plethora of rho air you do
in Germany, where I'm from, I was out

this morning, so I would expect to see
X number of rodia every time I go out.

I'm sorry.

In some areas of the UK you
do, but most of the UK you

actually don't and not like here.

And the Red Deer, yes, there are some
contained populations of Red Deer

below Scotland, but you don't see that.

Like you'd see migrating elk,
for example, in parts of the

American West or that sort thing.

So how is it that we have too many deer?

It seems to me that no, do we actually
have too many deer or do we actually have

too many people in conflict with deer?

Nick Viney: Well, yeah, okay.

We're an island, aren't we?

It isn't getting any, it
isn't getting any bigger.

Rupert Isaacson: But it's not like
you're seeing deer every time you go out.

You know, you're not,

Nick Viney: you are not.

So I would say, well, I am, I am.

Rupert Isaacson: You live in a, the se
the second really wild corner of the uk,

Nick Viney: the second you make
habitat, it's a, it's a magnet.

So anything that needs somewhere to hide
it needs to, you know, it's the second you

start growing trees and, and giving cover.

Yeah.

You, you are a magnet.

It is,

Rupert Isaacson: are gonna show up.

Yeah,

Nick Viney: yeah, yeah.

The, the, one of the biggest problems
in the UK and, and why you have these

concentrations of, of, say deer for
example, is, is the lack of connectivity.

So this, this herb Oh, okay.

Has to stay, you know, it's
only you're talking about

Rupert Isaacson: corridors,
wildlife corridor.

Nick Viney: Yes, exactly.

So it can't, you know, so, so I.

I've been on the range and I've seen I've
seen stags cross from, so three Dartmore,

365 square miles of missed opportunity.

I would say.

But you know, you'll see stags coming
right across the top in the open, open

moland, you know, they're not comfortable
in that scenario, but they know, you

know, they can smell over the hill.

There's, there's somebody good over the
other side of the hill and they will,

you know, try and use Dartmore as this
sort of you know, they'll bolt for it.

And, and Dartmore still has just a few
you know, few of these wooded valleys

where they can, you know, get down into
those and, you know, and they're steep

enough and, and uninhabited enough
that they can have a quietish life.

Rupert Isaacson: And we haven't gone
into your 20 years as a wildlife

ranger on Dartmore, which, not,

Nick Viney: not a wildlife ranger.

Rupert Isaacson: Sorry,

Nick Viney: not a wildlife ranger.

No.

What were you No, I'm a, I'm
what's called a range clearer.

So Uhhuh, I actually so I would
be on horseback with the dogs.

So that's the, that's the,
the, that painting there.

And and I would move livestock.

So Dartmore parts of dartmore
are used by the military.

And and so you have live firing
ranges, so people and livestock

have to be kept out of those areas.

And so, range clearers are employed
to move the livestock off those areas

and then hold them back in, you know,
until, until the live firings finished.

What

Rupert Isaacson: Brilliant job.

How long do you do that for?

Nick Viney: 20, 20 years.

Rupert Isaacson: Why'd you stop?

Nick Viney: Complicated
reasons, but you still

Rupert Isaacson: do it a bit like,
is that still part of what I still

Nick Viney: I still got my ticket.

Yeah.

Still a ticket.

Yeah.

Is that something

Rupert Isaacson: you can actually
make a, a full living off?

Like you could be like a, a fully bring
up your kids and pay mortgage on that?

Yeah,

Nick Viney: yeah, yeah.

I did that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Brilliant.

Nick Viney: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: That's a good,
so that's actually, yeah, well,

Nick Viney: you know, because it's
actually a, it's an un and the job is

unchanged for over a hundred years.

Okay.

You know, Dartmoor is, dartmore is full
of unexploded or ordinance, you know,

it's, you know, we've been, we don't
have tanks down here anymore, but you

know, these, these open wilder areas were
considered in a sense waste ground yeah.

That you could, you could
just lob things into.

Sure.

Actually what the ranges are, and this
is true on Dartmore, but also up and

down the country, is they are some of
the best, recovering landscapes, I'm

sure in the UK because we, we keep
people off and we create rest by, by

keeping the stock on certain areas.

Well, this

Rupert Isaacson: leads me to the,
so the reason I, I, I was asking

all those devil's advocate questions
about deer is the obvious one, right?

You yourself have said
We lack large predators.

You are a rew wilder.

Okay.

So we all know what the top
predator in the UK ought to be.

Now it's the wolf.

So in Germany where I live
it's very interesting.

I live in Hessen but
not far from Frankfurt.

Like you could be in downtown Frankfurt
from where I'm sitting right now, and

40 minutes, you could be in downtown
v Spartan in about less than 20.

But the forest and the, the
farmland around here is the

farmland is either crops or orchard.

Not all of the orchard is managed,
so a lot of it is semi rewild.

And big areas of forest, which are
working forests, they're all owned, like,

like in France, they're owned by the
local community and they're logged, but

they're logged some semis sustainably.

So there's a lot of wildlife in them.

In the last five years or six
years, wolves have shown up again.

And I lived in Canada for
a while and lots of Ws.

You never saw 'em, like, you know,
so you, I think I saw one once.

I was, however, as a journalist involved
in covering the early stages of the Wolf

Free introductions in Yellowstone National
Park in, and I watched how the landscape

regenerated itself once they came in
and all of the ranches going up in arms.

I said, and I realized actually you
guys aren't, it's not the wolves.

You just hate government and, and you
are just resentful of the fact that

government has put these things here.

But you and I both know you're not
gonna go outta business 'cause of

a wolf because economically that's
just not gonna happen anymore.

So you are, it's an inherited hatred
of it's an inherited farmer or herder

to the com com competition with another
predator that's come down the generations.

And it's also resentment
of government interference.

But ecologically, there's no question.

It's a good thing.

Anyway, as on horseback here I don't
know, about four years ago and I'd

been reading, oh yeah, they're back.

And they sort of pinpointed where
they'd seen a breeding panel.

Yeah, but we won't see 'em.

I totally, totally saw one and it was a
small female and she popped out on the

woodland ride in front of me and then
she ran up the ride for a good a hundred

yards before she popped off into us.

Wow.

I got to see her.

Well, I haven't seen her since because
there's been a shoot shovel and shut up.

Policy.

But no matter how much the locals here
will do that, I suspect the wolves will

find their foothold because times have
changed economically that people are

not living off the land in the same
way that they were a hundred years ago.

So, and people are more and more tolerant,
not less and less tolerant, but equally,

the, the story of why the wolves got
here in the first place is so weirdly

human, because it's because of Bel.

When Chernobyl happened, you
know, they basically created

a massive wildlife reserve.

All Yeah.

As you say, you give once, soon as the
cover comes, all the, all the stuff comes

back, then it comes, then it goes out.

And the wolves just began to expand
westward first through Poland

and then, you know, into here.

Now they're, they're in Belgium.

So, but what's interesting to me
is I then was in Poland a couple of

years ago, and there were wolf kills.

There's a big red deer wolf kill, like
right outside where we were staying.

And, but they were farming
cattle and other livestock.

And I said to them, aren't you
in conflict with the wolves?

And they said, oh, Rupert, the W See,
the thing is the wolves never left

here, so we know how to live with them.

And I said, so you, you let your
calves cow carve out your cows,

carve outside, not, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And yeah, sure, we lose one or two,
but honestly no more than we would

lose to other th you know, winter
crap or this thing or that thing.

Rupert, it's not a big deal.

But the Germans, they're all panicking
because they were without the wolf for

over a hundred years, and now they kind
of dunno how to live with it anymore.

And so sure, you've
gotta hunt some of them.

If you got a problem, one, you're
gonna, you're gonna go shoot it.

But in general, they, they, they,
they're not interested in you.

They keep away.

And as long as you've got enough deer,
that's really what they want to eat.

Yeah.

Now the uk so I don't believe
we really have too many deer.

I'm sorry.

I just don't, I grew up in
the countryside in the uk.

It's not like I was tripping
over a deer every five seconds.

I do know that there are issues
with growing trees, but one

can also fence trees off.

And they do, otherwise we wouldn't
be able to grow the industrial

plantations of trees that we do.

And that's another environmental thing.

But yet they do grow those trees.

So clearly th there are ways
to manage the deer, but we ha

we do have a plethora of sheep.

We do have a plethora of humans.

Bringing back the wolf is obviously a
conversation that's been going on for

30, 50, a hundred years or whatever.

Is it gonna happen, do you think, in
the uk because surely that would be

the authentic landscape, would it not?

The top predator back in
play and us living with it.

Nick Viney: Well, if you are
looking for the cheapest, quickest

solution to landscape recovery, then
yeah, it's an absolute no brainer.

For

Rupert Isaacson: sure.

Nick Viney: Nothing.

It's just not that simple, is it?

Rupert Isaacson: No,
I'm not saying it was,

Nick Viney: you talk
about us being tolerant.

I'm really not sure how tolerant we are.

Especially in the, especially
in the countryside.

Yeah.

I mean this is a massive, you know, we
have the rise of reform, Nigel Farage,

you know, you'll see those, those boards
all over the place in the countryside,

you know, and that's not, they

Rupert Isaacson: what No wolves.

Nick Viney: Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, you know, I

Rupert Isaacson: think he is the w

Nick Viney: it's, it's the sensible thing
to do, but, you know, but will it happen?

When do we go for that?

Yeah.

Do

Rupert Isaacson: you think
it'll happen at some point?

Eventually?

Nick Viney: Yeah, I think it will happen.

Rupert Isaacson: If you made it
this far into the podcast, then I'm

guessing you're somebody that, like
me, loves to read books about not

just how people have achieved self
actualization, but particularly

about the relationship with nature.

Spirituality, life, the
universe, and everything.

And I'd like to draw your
attention to my books.

If you would like to read the story
of how we even arrived here, perhaps

you'd like to check out the two New
York Times bestsellers, The Horseboy

and The Long Ride Home, and come on an
adventure with us and see what engendered,

what started Live Free Ride Free.

And before we go back to the
podcast, also check out The Healing

Land, which tells the story of.

My years spent in the Kalahari with the
Sun, Bushmen, hunter gatherer people

there, and all that they taught me, and
mentored me in, and all that I learned.

Come on that adventure with me.

Yeah.

And, and how will it happen?

'cause I'm interested in this, you know.

Well,

Nick Viney: they, you know, they're
not gonna cross the channel, so they,

we will be humans bringing them back.

It may not be, I, I don't
know how long that's gonna

be, but something will happen.

And what

Rupert Isaacson: do you think will happen?

Nick Viney: I think
we'll wise up, I think.

Rupert Isaacson: But specifically
like where would they do it

and how would they do it?

And

Nick Viney: I think they, I think
probably they'd do something in Scotland.

Mm-hmm.

And I think it will be the best thing
they ever did economically, because I

mean, that is seriously progressive.

You know, there's, there's a,
there's a incredible, you know,

even just from ecotourism, forget,
forget the timber perspective.

No

Rupert Isaacson: doubt.

Nick Viney: You know,
it's just, or t-shirts.

Rupert Isaacson: No, for sure.

Nick Viney: Yeah.

Yeah.

So yeah, I mean, that it
would just be extraordinary.

Yes.

Extraordinary.

But

Rupert Isaacson: do you think,
do you think it's 10 years away,

20 years away, 50 years away?

Nick Viney: No.

No.

What do you reckon?

I, I think it, I'd, I'd say 25 years
and some biblical shit climate wise.

'cause I think, I think it's not until
we really start feeling it, it's like,

you know, you know, look at what,
look at what happened to us in COVID.

Okay.

You know, within two weeks of
COVID, the shelves are empty.

You know, we, we are all faced with
the reality that we have bugger

all resilience in our food system.

Okay?

So we all turn to our local farmers,
blah, blah, blah, and everything's,

you know, and the weather's fabulous.

And and we all you know, things
look like there's a, there's

a moment for change here.

Well, the second we, that people
started to to look sideways for food,

then suddenly we're all back to work.

Back to work, get the gravy train
going again, because, you know.

Food resilience, food sovereignty,
the ability to feed yourself is

the most subversive act there is.

You know, if you can self sustain what
you see you to, to, you know, whoever

wants you to be their bitch, it's just
not you know, I guess they can tax

Rupert Isaacson: your
something, but Yeah, they can

Nick Viney: tax something.

Yeah.

So, so I, I guess what I'm
saying is that took a pandemic.

So, and, and I, and I think
c climate wise, we haven't so

climate wise we're looking at 30
to 40% higher rainfall events.

You, you know, as, as we get through this
century, you know, I, I live, you know,

I've grown up next, next to a river.

It is an awesome, awesome power.

I, I, I love to, to this feeling of kind
of insignificance that, you know, if I was

to go near that water, I just wouldn't,
you know, you just wouldn't last a minute.

And I, and I like that because
I like to be reminded that, that

Rupert Isaacson: you're talking
about flash floods, nature

Nick Viney: is powerful.

It's not really flash floods.

I mean, the, the, the problem is
there's nothing keeping it down there.

It's like, you know, there's no
beavers up there slowing it down

'cause there's no trees up there
for the beavers to eat, you know?

So, so, so these rivers get,
literally get overwhelmed.

And, and I mean that in a,

in they are like, we get overwhelmed.

Literally sense.

Rupert Isaacson: Whelm is the
old English for wave over.

Waved over.

Nick Viney: Nice.

Rupert Isaacson: Blowing over.

Nick Viney: Okay.

Well, so, so I didn't know that, but
this is how I sense this river is.

And it's not just, it's not the, the
river's not the thing is that the

river's, the, I have this idea that
water, one water is all water, okay?

And water is all as water is
trying to get to do, is to get

back to the main body of water.

And

Rupert Isaacson: nicely put,

Nick Viney: And it doesn't, you know,
so it's out at sea and then, and then

something happens and it's, and it's,
and it's drawn up into the clouds, you

know, and then these, these droplets
are all, are all there and they're,

and in these things called clouds,
and then they're getting heavier

and heavier and heavier, and then
something pulls them to the ground.

And they are smashed into the ground.

Now if what, what water really
wants is a soft landing.

And a soft landing is, is lots of
soil is, is lots of cover on the soil.

Is is a, is a nice lot of vegetation.

So it's, so it's cushioned as
it gradually meets the ground.

And ideally then it starts to.

Percolate into the ground and then
work its way down through the soil

profile where it can have a rest in
the aquifer to it gently coming out

into a nice, steady river, which
then allows it to go back to sea.

What happens is, like we talked about
earlier, smashing of, you know, everything

overwhelmed and and it's a, it's a crisis.

So, so it,

Rupert Isaacson: so as this relates to
wolves is the scenario as follows, we

get more of these extreme weather events.

There's more flooding in the urban
areas that are downstream of, and the

farming areas, but mostly the urban areas
that are downstream of these uplands.

Therefore, we need, we realize we need
more trees on those uplands to contain

the rain and beavers and things like that.

And because of that we need fewer things
up there that would eat the trees.

And so therefore, rather, like in
Yellowstone where they found that,

where they've been overpopulation of
elk when they brought the wolves back

in, not a vast amount of them even, but
they brought some back in immediately.

You've got regeneration of
forests on the upper slopes.

That was the first thing
that everybody saw.

Is that what we're talking about?

Is that, that the sort of biblical type
event that you think would bring back the

wolf in 25 years where people suddenly
say, okay, we need this sort of working

thing to contain the water, basically?

Nick Viney: Yeah, that, and I think
it's the cheapest, you know, we're

all driven by the economics of it, and
it's just the cheapest thing there is.

And, and I'm not saying you wouldn't
get 10 years into it as a, as

a thing, and then you'd have to
start, you know, culling, who knows.

Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: sure.

Well, hopefully, hopefully they would
get a healthy enough population.

Yeah.

That that would be a thing.

Yeah.

But you and I both know then that,
of course, the other thing the Wol

would do is they'd migrate and they'd
migrate down the uplands of Southern

Scotland, and then the Pennines

then they would begin to
show up in areas like yours.

You are the manager of
Dartmouth at this point.

Okay.

Let's posit that you are.

And now the first wolves are showing up
and we say, Hey Nick what's the strategy?

What would be your strategy?

Nick Viney: Oh, let
'em come, let 'em come.

And, you know, and like I
said at the beginning, it's

all about good shepherding.

Mm-hmm.

So, you know, wolves are
turned up in the Netherlands.

This is a Yeah.

This is an equally
densely populated country.

It's, it's very, if not more so.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Very similar to us.

Yeah.

And they, you know, one way or another,
they're kind of making it work.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Nick Viney: So it is doable.

And, and I'm always, always gonna
go for the nature-based solution.

Always.

Rupert Isaacson: So you are
the manager of Dartmoor.

It's 25 years on from now.

And Nick is the, you know,
generalism of, of Dartmore.

Am I seeing

the recovery of the upland Beachwood?

Am I seeing bison?

Am I seeing moose?

Am I seeing wolf?

Am I seeing links?

Am I seeing what else has gone?

Obviously wild cats.

Nick Viney: Eagles,

Rupert Isaacson: Eagles.

Am I seeing all of that?

Is it, is it suddenly
starting to look paleolithic?

Nick Viney: It is for me.

It is always in my head.

Yeah.

That's exactly how I, that's
exactly how I live, you know?

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Nick Viney: years.

It is, that's, that's the
thing I see all the time.

You know, when I, you know, you can
be riding across dartmore, so 5,000

more than 5,000 pre-historic remains.

You know, hu hut circles the
longest stone rose in Europe,

you know, phenomenal archeology.

Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.

Nick Viney: Those, those people would not
have been there in this naked landscape.

You know, what, what
would they have lived on?

What would they have hunted?

What would they have burnt?

You know, what, what would've
sheltered them from the wind?

You know, it was, there were
trees, there were open areas.

It was, you know, to to coin the
phrase, it was a mosaic of habitats.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Yeah.

It's interesting, you
know, about an hour from.

Bit more hour and a half
from where I'm sitting now.

There are now wild bison again,
European bison in the, in the woods

of a low mountain area called the
Z Land, which is a bit north of us.

And I know that in Kent, in the uk So
interesting that it happened in Kent,

which is for those listeners who dunno
what Kent is, it's like that little bit

that sticks out east of London into the
cheekily, sort of into the north Sea.

But it's like really populated.

It's sort of where the channel tunnel
comes out and like you'd expect they were

gonna reintroduce the European bison.

It would've been in Scotland or
Wales or Dartmore or something.

No, it's Kent crazy.

But yeah, they did it.

Have you been following that and are you
like among the Rewilding community in

the uk Do you all know each other and
it, are you all talking with each other

about expanding that and creating those
corridors for those types of species?

And

Nick Viney: so, so yeah, we certainly
work closely together and, and big shout

out to Paul Whitfield and the Wilder

Rupert Isaacson: bleed, isn't it?

Wilder Bleed.

Yeah.

Nick Viney: So the Wildwood Trust
for, for getting that project.

So, so.

What you have to start off with is
you have to have a suitable habitat.

Yeah.

You know, and so they had a suitable
woodland that needed those, you

know, those you know, needed some
of that brash taking out of it.

But they could have,
they could have put like

Rupert Isaacson: old English
longhorn cattle in there or

something, but they didn't, they
went for the bison, which I applaud.

But why,

Nick Viney: Charismatic species?

Slightly different behavior.

Very, you know, just, just those tiny
little details that, you know, in a, in

a, in a conversation between a, an animal
and a tree are very, very significant.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Nick Viney: So yeah, and, and I think
obvi experimentation, you know, we have

to be, we have to have this imagination
and bravery to, to experiment.

You know, gay Brown says, you
know, if you're not making one

massive mistake every year, you
are not trying enough things.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

Nick Viney: You're not, you
know, we are just stuck in this.

This is the way it's, we've
always done it, and this is

the way it's always gonna be.

Well, it isn't gonna be bloody like
this because it can't be, because we

have proved it is not sustainable.

So now we have to think about,
we're not talking about sustaining,

we're not talking about keeping
the same 'cause the same is shit.

We have to regenerate.

We have to create abundance.

Abundance is not only good for
us, it nourishes us, but it's

absolutely beautiful to look at.

It's the Garden of Eden.

And, and we have such a forgiving
climate in the UK that we can

create the Garden of Eden.

Rupert Isaacson: I love it.

That's a rather artistic, imaginative

worldview.

And we started by looking at some
of the art that's behind you.

You are also a living and working
artist as well as a farmer and

land regenerator and re wilder.

What are you doing with your art?

How does your art come
into this conversation?

And also crucially, how do you make that
part of the economics of your whole thing?

'cause really, while a lot of people
are listening to this podcast is

this idea of self-actualization.

And I think we, what we find when we talk
to everybody on here is people come on,

you know, usually wearing a certain hat,
you know, I'm a musician or I'm a horse

trainer, or I'm a educator, or whatever,
and I've made this big thing outta it.

But when you actually talk
to them, you actually realize

that they do about 50 things.

And th those 50 things all like an
ecosystem sustain both economically and

spiritually, emotionally, and so on.

So your art, talk to us about how you got
going with that, because it's very good.

I'm looking at.

The stuff on your one.

I, I want that one of the, the
size saddle lady with the foxes.

And I, I know you don't think that's
what it's, but I think that's what

Nick Viney: it's, no, as soon as
I as far as I'm concerned with

the painting it's, well what
happens with most paintings anyway?

No, and I'll tell you
what, I'm not, if you

Rupert Isaacson: actually
paint it that way, I'll buy it.

Nick Viney: I,

Rupert Isaacson: as
long as I can afford it.

Nick Viney: What I was gonna say was
the, what happens when you paint is

this glorious thing called creativity
or whatever this weird thing is

that happens that, that, you know,
each of us explain differently,

connection to source, whatever it is.

But there's this, this out of body state.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

So you set flow, you set out flow.

We, we set out with a certain
intention for a painting.

This is how it works for me.

I'm sure it's different for everybody.

I set out with a certain intention and at
some point something else has taken over.

Now I don't know when that point is
and I, I can't be conscious of that

point because else I'm out of flow.

So, so the important part for
me is just to get it done.

It's to get it outta me.

And there it is.

It's, it's ma it's now manifested.

That was the thing for me.

If for you it's a side
saddle lady with two foxes.

Going hunting for whoever,
people, I don't know.

It's exactly what you want it to
be because it's moving on, it's

moving into a different life.

So, so that's my thing about paintings.

I don't get possessive over the meaning.

This, you know, this is bird,
this is birds bring ideas.

So this is a, a Jungian a Jungian
philosophy about birds bringing ideas.

And I had this, I had this time where
I, you know, I'd be doing something.

Rupert Isaacson: What is, hold
on, hold on, hold on, hold on.

What is the Jungian philosophy
of what, what did Carl Jung

say about birds bringing ideas?

Because not everyone knows.

Nick Viney: I don't know anything
more than birds bring ideas.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Nick Viney: It's been a long
time since you're not, you're

Rupert Isaacson: not like
a, a a a, a deep Jungian.

Nick Viney: No, no, I'm not.

I'm, no.

I was lucky enough to grow up, grow
up with some very, starts, some deep

youngian people, and, and I said, I said,
this weird thing keeps happening to me.

I, I'm like, you know,
I'm doing something.

I dunno, I'll make the bed or
bend over to share my ch list.

And I get this sensation of this,
of this bird swooping down over

me, just like over the top of me.

And, and, you know, and he just turned
around and he said, well, you know

what Carl said, birds bring ideas.

And, and maybe it was the fact
that, the birds were bringing me

ideas, but I wasn't seeing them.

And you, you know, if you're a
creative person, and I think actually,

I think everybody's creative.

Sure.

I do not believe that there is
this thing, oh, I don't have

a creative bone in my body.

Right.

But some people do

Rupert Isaacson: and others don't.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Nick Viney: And, and not only
that, it's not, some people have

really had it knocked outta them.

Indeed.

And it's, it's a profound sense of
inadequacy that, that, you know, and it

could just be a flippant comment as a
child, and, and that has knocked, you

know, completely knocked that out of you.

And, and so in enter stage left
only Art and Beaver will save us.

Which is, which is a, a program
of of creative workshops where

where I use the, the native
species at Rewilding COO's head to.

To, to really understand what should
be in our landscape, what we have

a right to, what we really have a
right to see what has a right to

be in our landscape here in the uk.

And then really understand what
role they play in i i in the

ecosystem and trying to connect us
to nature through our creativity.

So it doesn't, you know, I don't
believe you don't have to have a, you

know, an arts practice or anything.

You just want to be driven to to
ha to have a nature connection.

And so talking about your, your various,
you know, people coming on with lots of

different hats on you know, a I'm 55 years
old now, so, you've gotta have acquired a

few, like, you know, whatever experiences.

Yeah.

And, and then trying, you know, and
then weaving those different experiences

through to then create something that
hopefully then does some good, is.

It is something that's
very interesting to me.

And and I, you know, some people
think maybe they say I'm an idealist

and I, I wanna be an idealist.

Okay.

Because if I'm not an idealist,
what am I, I'm like, oh, this is

okays, or this is absolutely shitty.

I

Rupert Isaacson: think I know
what we offer an idealist.

Bored.

Nick Viney: Yeah.

So I want to see this.

Yes, I wanna see this better world
because it, we are so, it is so within

our grasp, and this is why, you know,
this is why I'm not actually a rewild,

or, yes, sometimes I'm a rewild.

Part of my land, you could say was
rewild, but actually I'm blurring the

lines all the time because land is a,
the whole thing is a very dynamic thing.

And we have to, we have
to allow it to move.

We have to allow our rivers to
move across the floodplains.

The trees have to be able to, you know,
be in a procession across the landscape.

So, so yeah, weaving all that through
to find some sort of to make some

sort of living is is, is, yeah,
what I spend all my days doing.

And, and

Rupert Isaacson: that's brilliant.

It, it sounds, what it sounds
to me like is there's a couple

of images sprang to mind.

The, you know, we talked at the beginning
of this conversation a little bit,

or at least I did, about, the sort of
anti artistic, anti-intellectual side

of both, say the farming population
and also the urban population that

doesn't like the farming population.

The two sets of grumps grumping
at each other from either side of

a, of a perceived divide, which of
course is completely illusory anyway.

And but what they're essentially arguing
about is even if they don't know they're

arguing about it, is, is, is the nature
of happiness and nature and access to it.

When I was working with the initial group
of Sun Bushman hunter gatherers in South

Africa, which got me drawn into my human
rights thing, and I got drawn into that

'cause I turned out to be related to them
and I could go into that whole story.

I wrote a book about it
called The Healing Land.

He said, plugging his book, the Healing
Land, available in all good books.

We turned out to be cousins
in-law through a weird thing.

So I got involved in their land rights
struggle and one of the interesting

things was that there, they had
been kicked out of what is now South

Africa's second biggest national park
in the 1970s amid a sort of fake news.

Thing that there were
no real bushmen left.

These guys were just, what
they then we call actually

still wood colored mixed race.

They're not really like that anymore.

They might have had some ancestry, but
no, they're just like rural slum dwellers.

Yeah, no, they were
totally living in there.

And they, they got kicked out
and they were living by the side

of the road for about 25 years.

And after Mandela came to power, they
popped up and said, we are still here

and we'd like our land back please.

And long and the short of it, they got it.

And so I've been involved in three
big land rights struggles in my life.

One in with the Cree in
against Hydro Quebec.

So I've eaten a lot of
beaver, I have to say that.

And it jolly good at taste too.

With the Ani Bushman in South
Africa with the qua and boom

Bushman in Central Kalahari Game
Reserve, which came after that.

In each case they won and
they won against all odds.

Hydro Quebec, one of the biggest
power companies in the world, they

won de Beers diamonds, which is
basically what they were up against,

you know, in box one at day one.

And up against the, the, the post
apartheid National Park system, they won.

Now those guys were all artists.

They were living off the land fully, a
hundred percent, including the cr, the

Cree, they were still living under canvas
up there in like minus 30, minus 50.

All of them creating art all the time.

Was it Confucius said, for
happiness, practice, the arts.

So some of them, it was music,
some of them it was visual arts.

Some of it was, it was sculpting.

Some of it was philosophy
and storytelling.

And it was completely, completely,
completely tied up with livelihood,

nature, and the real practicality
of just like surviving in these

incredibly harsh environments.

They still were so good at it that
they had the time for culture.

And to my mind, the, the image of
sort of human authenticity, it's

the, it's the, it's the caved dweller
painting on the, the rock wall, right?

You what's that cave?

Well dweller done, he's not just come from
a Starbucks, you know, he's been out there

carving the intestines
out of a wild sheep.

But now he's painting with paints
that he's made actually from the

blood of that wild sheep and the fat.

And that the, and he is fully involved in
the spirit of these bushmen these son had,

were, had been kicked off some areas of
land, particularly up in Botswana, where

they had traditionally done rock painting.

Yeah, because the rock painting, this
is an area called the Soo Hills had

been designated a national monument,
so no one was allowed to deface it.

So Bush kicked out to live,
you know, five kilometers that

they were allowed to be guides.

That was nice of the government
to, to let them show you around.

But no, they weren't allowed to paint
anymore, even though their painting

tradition had never, they still had
a living rock painting tradition.

So, of course, what did they do?

They would sneak in and they would
just continue their rock painting,

and then they would show people
the, these ancient paintings.

And then to me, they'd sometimes
giggle and say, Rupert, that

one's actually from last week.

But they knew how to make it look old.

Yeah.

And they said, and they, and,
and, and then you read all these

anthropological things saying, oh,
we don't know, really know what they

mean and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

We, we speculate that this one is about,
you know, some rain thing and this, and

they said it, dude, we know exactly what
they mean and they would tell me, but

they said, but no one listens to us.

No one asks us.

And if we tell them they don't believe us
because we're just little brown people.

And what would we know just about that?

The fact that our mom and dad
actually painted those things.

So this disconnect is in incred, you
know, but flow seems to me therefore

the that meeting of culture and nature.

And it seems to me that
that's what you do, Nick.

And if you have something to impart to the
world, whichever hat that you are wearing,

I could encounter you as a regenerative
farming person and you could be showing

me how to you know, have my livestock
better so that my land can be healthier.

Or you could be helping me rewild.

'cause I know that you guys were
involved in a beaver reintroduction

on some land that actually a friend
of mine has down in Cornwall.

And or you could be involved in,
you know, water stuff, or you, I

could encounter you as an artist
and in eat, or as a horse woman.

And in each of those things, you'd
be authentically, you could say,

yeah, I'm wearing that hat today.

But in each of those things,
what would I be encountering?

I'd be encountering a person
who's self-actualized through this

melding of culture and nature.

And that you, by doing it,
would be showing me, Hey Ru,

it's possible to do this.

It's possible to be in this flow state.

Would you like to do it too?

Because it makes humans happy to do this.

And that seems to me a great
contribution to the world.

You may not see yourself that way, but I
could say that through this conversation.

What I would take away is

also the happiness of applying my
imagination to the landscape and

entering into an interaction with the
landscape that involves the imagination.

And then seeing where that leads.

And that seems to be quality of life.

What, I mean, what do you think to that?

And if you agree with that, how do we
make that more possible for more folk?

Nick Viney: You, you're absolutely
right about quality of life.

So for me, it's I always, I,
I value time more than money.

I don't have a particularly
good, I would, I'm not very

driven to make money in, in that.

I, if I've got enough money to do the
things I wanna do and, and look after this

place in the way I wanna look after it,
then, then I'm kind of, I'm, I'm happy.

What I value more than anything is
being able to go, I'll, I'll say, I'll

say to my partner here, I'm just, I'm
going out to stare at things 'cause

I'm not, you know, maybe I've been
hours on my computer or whatever.

And actually.

Being, being out there, there is no
time wasted with your feet on the,

on the ground is what I would say.

Rupert Isaacson: Moving in the
landscape as a human being part of it.

Yeah.

Nick Viney: Yeah.

Just moving, literally staring at stuff.

You see stuff that you just, I, like
yesterday one thing I I I, I locked

onto this when I was going into little
corners of the, the, this place to hitch

up fences where you wouldn't normally go.

'cause it was a pain to get in
there to hook up fences for,

you know, to move livestock.

And I, and I noticed that we had this
particular beetle that I'd never seen,

you know, I hadn't clocked before.

And turns out this beetle is like,
yeah, it's quite rare, but it, it's got

the most amazing lifecycle where it's,
its babies crawl up onto the, onto the

flowers and wait for a particular type
of miner bee, and then these, these

scrubs climb onto that miner bee and
then ride it back to the hole and then

go down the hole and then feed off.

Paint no dragon.

Yeah, exactly.

So, so these things are happening out
there and, and I suppose what, what is,

what is the ultimate feeling for me?

Is it's to, it is to like,
feel connected to it.

It is all connected.

Everything, you know.

The, the, the work is, is connected.

The, the going out and staring
at things is connecting.

And you know, like our glamping thing,
you know, we could have, we could have

like expanded and made six of them.

Most people would put six in
the field that we've got one in.

Because that would certainly
be the economic thing to do.

But actually when people, you know, we,
we say with the glamping thing, we're

changing the world to, to campers at
a time because it is profound the, the

level of rest that people get here.

Yeah.

And the, the quality of of rest.

Leeward glamping.

By the way rewilding futures.co

Don't worry, we're gonna give you
all your websites in a minute.

Yeah.

And I mean, people that stay here
for a week, they're like, they go

to Ton, you know, the village two
miles up the hill, and they think

it's like fast paced because things
have slowed so profoundly for them.

Mm-hmm.

That, you know, it really is a,
you know, we're, there's lots of

things driving us in this, in this
construct that we have created.

Mm-hmm.

And,

and it's extremely hard
to get away from that.

Whether it's your, you know, the wifi
or, or the, or the anxiety because

you've left your phone plugged in
because it's off grid and you've had

to go like 400 meters away from it.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, he
said, looking for his phone.

Yeah.

Nick Viney: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: To plug my phone.

Nick Viney: Exactly.

But, but

last year, no, not last year, A
couple years ago, I, I I, there was

a lot going on and I was spending
way too much time at the computer,

so I thought, right, that's it.

I'm, I'm picking up my tent
and I'm going down the valley.

So I went down the valley, I hung out
with some animals and I'm walking around

in the moonlight and I thought, oh shit.

I've, I've dropped my phone over
there and I, but then I kind of look

at my hand, my phone's in my hand.

It's like, so what the hell's that?

Interesting?

And I went up to it, and it's a glow worm.

I hadn't seen a glow worm for 50 years.

Okay.

Here.

You know, and this, this, this
incredible bioluminescent beetle,

you won't believe how bright it is.

And, and literally I can remember the
last time I saw one at the bridge.

So have they come

Rupert Isaacson: back because of
the rewilding work that you've done?

Nick Viney: They have not been,
they've obviously hung on here.

And then, you know, maybe, hopefully I've,
I corrected, you know, how I was treating

the land in time that hopefully they're
gonna be able to you know, proliferate

and actually, you know, this is, it's
such a charismatic, it's such a beautiful

thing for kids, especially, you know,
to have this bele that glows in it.

I mean, how many, how many?

Well, I think, yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: it's more than that.

I mean, if, if you want the
personification of magic, if you

want the personification of what
it feels like to dance with God,

you know, in the landscape Yeah.

Is to walk among fireflies.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's, it's

Nick Viney: just, just phenomenal.

So I, I, I just want,

you know, everybody, we are all connected
and we are all connected to nature.

Whether we, whether we
like it or not, we all eat.

And how we eat profoundly affects
what is going on in the countryside.

Mm-hmm.

And, and so, so what we have is this
opportunity for farmers to de deliver

food, but also have, have the solutions
which help mitigate climate change.

So, so farmers, you know, they can
get a bad rep for various things and

there are some bad things going on.

Actually what we have here
is an amazing opportunity.

And don't give me the guff about
who's gonna feed the world, because

you know, that's not, we are, we
have 40% waste in our food system.

Rupert Isaacson: Sure.

And we're gonna go to vertical
farming in cities and all of that.

We, we can,

Nick Viney: there's so many, you know,
if, if you, if you, if you come off

this call and wanna do anything, I
would say get yourself on a course, a

permaculture design certificate course,
because it will change your life.

It will expand your brain like
you never thought possible.

And I don't care how old or young
you are this is not a farming thing.

This is a life thing.

This is, it's really hard to bring, bring
artistry into everything you do, into the

design of your life and just, just the
most beautiful you know, the, the earth,

the earth care manual Bill Linson's.

You know, it's a phenomenal
piece of work, man.

Doesn't matter what, you know,
what you're interested in, there's

something for you in there.

It's just fabulous.

So yeah, permaculture, permanent
agriculture systems, you know, it's

about sustainable civilizations.

I dunno if you can hear
me 'cause I'm in a tin.

She, and it's starting to rain.

Rupert Isaacson: Permaculture.

A design system for creating sustainable
and self-sufficient ecosystems

by mimicking natural patterns.

It aims to integrate human activity
with the natural environment to

minimize waste, prevent pollution,
and maximize biodiversity, resiliency

and sustainability in practice.

Permaculture applies principles of design,
engineering, and land management to create

productive and resilient landscapes.

Thank you, ai.

I just looked it up.

Thank

Nick Viney: you.

Thank you.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Well, but it's, it's one of

Rupert Isaacson: those things with
one, here's the word a lot and I think

when people hear that word, unless
they have been exposed to it, it's

almost like an eyes glaze over thing.

Yeah, absolutely.

And it's, and it's a boring word.

Permaculture is a boring word.

Word.

It doesn't, it doesn't really, if
we called it magic making so you can

eat while supping with
the gods or something.

But that is basically sort
of, kind of what it is.

Yeah.

And it's interesting in Botswana,
you know, where I spent a lot of time

actually banned from Botswana 'cause
of the human rights work I did there.

But when I was spending a lot of time
in Botswana they have a, they have a

whole department of permaculture Alright.

At government level.

Yeah.

It's very interesting because
dry land, agroforestry.

Is, is a big thing.

Yeah.

And so interestingly, while persecuting
the sun and the bushmen, they've

actually learned a lot from them and
apply a lot of, a lot of you know,

those, those principles to the land.

And it, it gives me great joy that
people like you who are coming from that

sense of stasis that we had in the
farming community in the uk growing up,

you're my generation, are now looking
at it in this way because it depresses

me, I have to say, when I see the
wind farms go up and it depresses me

when I see the solar panels covering
fields because the reason is, is it's

not beautiful and humans need nature.

Nature is beautiful.

So when we see industrial shit on the
landscape, even if it's providing us with

clean energy is profoundly depressing.

And I hope to, I, I and I actually have
faith that our technology's gonna move

us beyond that relatively quickly and we
won't need to put concrete on green things

in order to not pollute the environment.

It's people like you out there
doing what you're doing that

are moving us towards that.

And I'm grateful, grateful for
the work that you're doing.

So.

With that in mind, people need to know
how to get to the work that you're doing.

So you have your regenerative agriculture
practice, you also have your glamping

sites, which sound brilliant and I think
I would like to come and stay in that.

You also have your art, so these
things have different websites.

How do people reach you, Nick?

Nick Viney: So I can pretty much
always be reached on www.nickfiy.co.uk,

N-I-C-K-V-I-N-E y.co.uk.

I will be sort of trying to
split up everything so it's

less confusing for people.

I operate if you wanna come and stay here,
you can come to www.rewildingfutures.co

uk.

I, I made up that name just
because I'd lost my other

name to a computer era thing.

I had no idea at the time what a
buzzword Rewilding was gonna be.

Interesting.

And yeah, so it's.

And I'm only part re wilder anyway,
so, but yeah, so Rewilding Futures,

and it's really about giving people
the opportunity to, to have a different

aesthetic, you know, try and then try
and scratch their head and wonder why

is she laying so many brambles grow?

And you know, and then hopefully
see those trees coming up.

And yeah.

What else do we do?

So Rewilding coombs head, ww
dot rewilding coombs head.co

uk is, is where I work.

And

Rupert Isaacson: s there's
many ways to spell co.

So how we spelling Coom in this

Nick Viney: so Rewilding Coombs
head, C double O-M-V-E-S-H-E-A d.co

do uk and there you can do Beaver
Watches and we run yes, short.

We do, you can stay in the
Shepherds Huts, obviously.

No shepherds left.

We've got Shepherd Huts.

You can come and.

Come to our conferences.

So for example, we've got a
conference a kind of a rolling

theme called, if Not Now, when.

And this year is, if not
now, when Sea Beyond.

And we're actually, we're, we're
taking the, we're we're following

the water from the uplands, so from
the peat bogs, and we're following

that water down and out to sea.

And we're talking to experts
about all the critters.

When is this conference?

And this conference is July
the 25th, 26th and 27th.

In Devon.

And if you, at yours at, in Devon?

At at Derek Go Rewild and CO's head.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Yeah,

Nick Viney: I, I've, I've
sort of converted his barns

into a conference center.

We call it the, the straw auditorium.

Gosh, I'd like to get

Rupert Isaacson: to that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Nick Viney: And, and you know, the, the
most phenomenal speakers come every year.

We have the most, you know, we've
got this year we actually have, so we

have John Lister, k Charlie Burrow,
and these guys have been so generous.

They've come every year to, to, to supply.

Listeners

Rupert Isaacson: might not know this
goes across the English speaking world.

Who are these people?

Nick Viney: Okay, so, so, so John Lister.

K so formed AGA Field Center, one
of the first field centers up in the

Highlands of Scotland, up in Inness.

And is absolutely one of the
original nature conservation guys.

And it's like having this.

Comedian in the place.

He is the most fantastic standup comedian.

He just brilliant.

And, but all in nature recovery,

Rupert Isaacson: John Lister.

K,

Nick Viney: so John Lister.

K, yeah.

KAY, K-A-Y-E-E.

And then Sir Charlie Bur so of
the great NEP estate so we've got

Rupert Isaacson: net per
state in Su in Sussex.

Nick Viney: Yes.

And so that's with A-K-K-N-E, double P.

And

Rupert Isaacson: just again, for
listeners who dunno what that is

we talked about where they've got
the, the bison, the European bison

coming back in Kent of all places.

But Sussex, which is another place
that's actually very close to London,

but also oddly wild there's a massive
estate down there where they turned

it back to the wild and the net.

K-N-E-P-P, it's sort of a thing in the uk,
but outside the uk it may not be known.

Yeah,

Nick Viney: yeah.

So it's so it was a, it was
a big farm, a big estate.

It's through 3000, 500 acres.

And it was a very uneconomic
farmer anyway, so they've

turned it back to nature.

And, and really, so this is, so
Charlie Bur and his, his wife

Isabella Tree and that Isabelle
Tree wrote a book called Wilding.

Mm-hmm.

Which I would recommend everybody reads.

It has touched so many
people and it will help.

It will.

She's so eloquently, describes the
struggle of, of a, a lot of really what

we've been talking about here, that
that's, that's that conflict between

rewilding and conventional agriculture
and really how we're going to, you know,

segue through that and, and they've,
you know, they've lived that experience.

Really recommend that book.

Rupert Isaacson: Where
can people find your art?

Nick Viney: Well, my art.

My art.

So through the website.

Which website?

Nick viney.co.uk.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Nick Viney: And I'm really rubbish
at getting new stuff up there.

So what I tend to do is, well,
apparently nothing for two years until

I've got a big enough body of work.

And then maybe we do open studios,
or maybe I spend a week trying to

get everything onto the website.

But it's much better off contacting
me direct and then I'll just walk

around the studio with a webcam
and say, do you like any of this?

Or, I'll come and stay.

Come and stay.

Rupert Isaacson: I presume you
also do commissions too, if

somebody wanted something painted.

Nick Viney: I do commissions.

I, I did used to do a lot of commissions.

I'm a little bit what would I say?

I you know, I don't like to, to
compromise when it comes to my

creativity and I, yeah, I like
to put my own stamp on stuff, but

Rupert Isaacson: if somebody comes to
you with an idea that tickles you, you.

Do it.

Nick Viney: Absolutely.

And, and really the, the, you know, the
paint the world a better place is, is, is

all commission in a sense, what I describe
is, so say I go to a conference and they

have a particular problem and they're
trying to describe a transition between

where we are now and where we wanna be.

As soon as I understand that problem then,
you know, I can paint that transition.

That's cool.

And, and, and that can be, you know,
you can have a, this is where we are

now, and this is where we end up on the
same painting, or we can go together

through, this is where we are now,
and then layer it up into something.

Well, people

Rupert Isaacson: bring you as an,
as a sort of consultant to do that.

Nick Viney: Yeah.

So we call it an artist in residence
and you know, for, for however many

days or hours or whatever it is.

And once I get my head around a
problem, I can, you know, I, I, I

think in images, so interesting.

Rupert Isaacson: So

Nick Viney: I feel like my job as
an artist is to distill complex

problems into very clear imagery,
which, which allows people to have

their own penny dropping moments
because we don't know what that is.

And that's, that's, that's
difficult with the written word.

Not all of us absorb the
written word very comfortably.

Right.

But with art we can, we can, yeah.

We can fill in the gaps
as we are, as, as we were.

So somebody

Rupert Isaacson: could, could
contact you to come in and do that.

Nick Viney: Yeah, absolutely.

That's really what I'm leaning into
now is, is I feel like it's, it's

a sort of a science communicator.

But, but yeah, I really wanna
bring the bring the art and

the sh and the show into it.

Yeah.

Okay.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, fantastic.

Right.

I'm gonna read the websites back.

So if you want to check out Nick's art
and it's good 'cause I'm looking at it.

And if you would like to hire her
as an artist in residence, come in

and paint your problem and solution
for you, which sounds brilliant.

Nick Viney,
N-I-C-K-V-I-N-E-Y-N-I-C-K-V-I-N-E y.co.uk.

Don't worry, we're gonna
put this in the show notes.

If you are wanting to go
glamping on her land and who

wouldn't rewilding futures.co.uk.

If you want to check out the Rewilding
work that she's also doing with Derek

Gao, who's a bit of a legend in the
UK and go Beaver watching Hoho and

stay in the wild and such like, and
do this amazing conference that she's

talking about down there in Devon.

Rewilding, Coombs head, C-O-O-M-B-E-S
Co, of being a narrow, shallow.

Upland Valley bowl thing in old
English rewilding coombs head.co.uk.

And the theme is, if not now, when?

July

Nick Viney: 25th to 27th.

Rupert Isaacson: 25th to 27th, yeah.

Got it.

Of this year, 2025.

And if you come across this podcast, not
in 2025, well, I presume there's gonna

be one next year and the year after.

And you can contact Nick.

Nick, it's been brilliant.

Nick Viney: Rob.

Really enjoyed this Ruper.

Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: thank you
for taking us on this, on this

self-actualization journey.

It's, it's, I've learned a lot.

Inspiring course.

Yeah.

Nick Viney: Great.

Yeah.

And hopefully see you in the southwest.

Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed
today's conversation as much as I did.

If you did, please help us to make more.

Please like, subscribe, tell
a friend, give us a thumbs up.

If you'd like to support us on Patreon,
please go to my website, rupertisakson.

com.

And if you'd like to find out about
our certification courses with.

autism, education, horsemanship,
everyday shamanism.

There's a whole range of cool stuff.

Putting a show together like
this is not an easy task.

If you'd like to support us, please
consider going to our Patreon page

and showing us some love there.

Even the smallest donation, it really
helps us to keep the good content coming.

So go to rupertisakson.

com and click on the Patreon link.

Not to mention our excellent merch.

Please go to our shop and check
out some of our really cool

rock and roll themed merch.

T shirts, hoodies, all that sort of thing.

rupertisatson.

com, it's all there.

I can't wait for our next guest
and also to meet you there.

In the meantime, remember, live free.

Ride free.