Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.

Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New
York Times bestselling author of

The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.

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So now let's jump in.

Welcome back to Live Free, ride Free.

Jason Barrett has put his life in
service to people with special needs.

Obviously, that's dear to my heart
because I've done a rather similar thing.

But I kind of had to do it because I,
obviously, I'm an autism dad, Jason

and his wife Sise, who by the way, you
will want to go across to our equine

assisted world podcast and listen to her
incredible interview and story there.

But even though she's the sort of
horse person behind that, Jason

has built an extraordinary family
business around theater performance,

special needs, neuroplasticity.

And living life sort of on
his own terms along the way.

And when I first met Jason, which I think
was in 2018 he struck me as somebody who

would see no obstacles in life because
you really can't, you shouldn't be able to

make a living through this sort of weird
mix of equestrian theater autism living

life on the road as a sort of performance
gypsy, let alone like raise a family and

the whole thing and, and make a go of it.

And yet he has.

And I think we all kind of wanna run
away with the circus, so as the man that

we might be running to if we do that.

I wanna welcome Jason to the show.

And so Jason, thanks
so much for coming on.

You're one of my heroes.

Tell us.

Super.

I'm excited to be here.

Thanks for having me.

It's always fun to, to talk.

Are you talk with, you hang out
with like-minded people, what

possessed you to do something?

So on the face of it, impossible to
make a living at when you could have

just gone to law school or something?

Jason Barrett: Well, I,
I, I could have done that.

That would've been an option.

I think first of all, you, you've gotta
look all the way back and I have to

give credit to a, a fortunate life.

I was born under great conditions.

I was born in the United States with a
family who loved and cared for me under

conditions that that allowed for growth.

You know, there's a lot of
people that don't start that way.

So that would be the first thing.

You know, obviously you gotta have a
decent start, otherwise you may have

some obstacles to go to overcome.

And as far as my life was gone, has gone
there's been no real obstacles like that.

Rupert Isaacson: You know, that's a very
honest thing to say because a lot of

people want to sort of virtue signal by
saying, well, you know, I bootstrapped

it and I came outta poverty and so on.

I do know that you did bootstrap it.

I know that you're being very modest
there, but it's interesting that you start

with gratitude for the life circumstances.

I think so many of us just completely,
who grew up in the West completely

take for granted and have a bit
of a sense of entitlement to just

the fact that we are born here and
not in Wartorn Sudan or something.

And it is a very valid point.

Okay, so you're born in, in
the us Where are you born?

Jason Barrett: Born in
Jacksonville, Florida, down on the

beautiful east coast of Florida.

Moved shortly thereafter
to Mobile, Alabama.

Were home.

WW became home from three
years old, o old on.

And and I guess as far as attention with
the with the special needs world and that,

and that type of, how, that became such a
huge part of my life, which it absolutely

did was, I was introduced and we're in
the Southern Baptist Bible Belt down here.

So we were, we were good baptists.

Amen.

Coming to school to play basketball
or up to the church to play

basketball and and hear the word.

And so I was part of the youth
group at that time, and there was

a really great youth pastor, you
know, a lot of a lot of preachers

get condemnation from some folks.

This was one of those honest, true to true
to life people, you know, a heartfelt guy.

Okay.

He recognized in me just from our
interactions with the youth group

and, and things and went to my
mother and said, Hey, you know what?

I've had this camp call and
they need hands on deck.

It's for mentally retarded
children and adults, which

was the term used at the time.

Mm-hmm.

And and we think, I think that Jason
has a good heart for this kind of work.

He could probably help, but I was 12
years old at the time, so 12 years old.

Wow.

That's, that's what he,
that's what they thought.

So he said, yeah, let's,
let's give it a try.

I was willing, I, I wanted to do that.

I, I did it already.

Enjoy.

Helping others and, and found
the joy and, and satisfaction

and, and serving other people.

And, and so anyway, I went, gave it a
shot, had no idea what I was walking into.

I walked into a line of full grown man.

There was a six foot three black dude
that was twice as wide as I was, who

was getting pretty irate in the line.

And then they introduced me to my
40-year-old camper, 49-year-old camper.

This old man who could, who can't
speak, and he is drooling on himself.

And this was my introduction to the
special needs community at 12 years old.

So, wow.

It was perfect.

Absolutely perfect.

What was your reaction?

My reaction was just
shock and awe at first.

Oh boy, what did I get myself into here?

You know, but I was willing.

I showed up.

I'm not one to, you know, turn
away when I, when I tried.

There must

Rupert Isaacson: have been a
little bit of fear, though.

I mean big autistic adults, it's not easy.

Jason Barrett: Yeah.

Shocking.

It was a little bit of fear
but it calmed down very soon.

The, the air in the place
at that time, you know, this

was, this was before internet.

This was before you, you had to show
up in person to sign your documents.

You had to meet everyone
who passed through the line.

You know this.

Yeah.

That was going on.

So it's a different era.

It's hard to talk about things now in
that, in the light of that, but the

air from that moment was just this
big cooperative scene of happy people

waiting to get in the lunch line.

And everybody's kind of herding cats,
you know, they're, they're doing

their part to help whoever they're
working with do the best job they can.

And, and I jumped right in feet first, and
stayed there from 12 to about 20 each year

for about five weeks out of the summer.

I and a bunch of others showed up
there to be volunteers and, and

help was, this was Camp Smile,

Rupert Isaacson: right?

Opportunities

Jason Barrett: Camp Smile.

This was Camp Smile, also called Camp.

Why did it grab

Rupert Isaacson: you so much?

I can tell you I, at 12 or
my teens, I would've run.

I just, I would've run a mile.

Yeah.

And most people do.

Jason Barrett: I, I don't know, it
just, it was just innate, a part of

me, even when I tried to transfer out
into the regular workforce, the idea

of not helping someone directly just,
it just didn't make me feel like I was

in sync with what I should be doing.

So help, direct help is something
I could, can you just tell us a

Rupert Isaacson: little bit though about
what, what was the internal process?

I mean, what do you think made
you go, yes, this is for me.

Jason Barrett: I would've probably,
I, it would, it was be after

the fact that I got started.

So maybe a week into that first
week, I knew where I was after that

first week of working with that man.

His name was David De Rocher and
he was, he was very mild behavior,

like I said, 49-year-old man.

And during the time that I worked with him
that week, it opened my eyes to the fact

that most of us don't have any problems.

You can, you can pretend you do, but
until you've worked in this, in this

world and you see what families go through
and you see the lack of hope that just

wells up and how the tiniest effort can
change everything in those situations,

you really learn to be grateful.

You learn.

So I really attribute.

My basic character to my understanding
at that camp with those, and I give a

lot of credit to everything we've done
to the special needs humans who raised me

while I was a young teenager helping them.

How do you think they raised you?

How did the special
needs people raise you?

There's this you know, the, it, it
depends 'cause everyone is an individual.

So you, you're talking about a
group of people that are indeed

incredibly individualistic and some
of those you learn lessons, you learn

lessons from some of these folks.

You know, when one, just the lifestyle
of them and their family, the, the

need to get up and put your next foot
forward regardless, sometimes shaking

off the problem is exactly what you do.

In this population.

Some people don't even see the problem.

There is no problem.

So you, there's these tiny, tiny
lessons you can learn from a

population that doesn't think and
breathe and live the same way you do.

And you've learned that for, obviously
from your travels around the world.

We are so different.

And yet there's all
these tiny connections.

If you're paying enough attention,
that can build something new in you.

So for me, it was that, it was
seeing that these folks are willing

to smile, have a great time.

The forgiveness and the kindness that
you see, the, the, the connection that

you can make because of the lack of
layers of humanity that's grown on top

of our faces as we go through life.

You know, those, those layers are peeled
back much like working with the horses.

It's just you get an easy answer
from a horse, yes or no, I

like this, I don't like this.

And it builds room for
communication the same thing.

This communication between
us was so simple at the time.

Sometimes it's just to sit and a stare
and a look, and you're waiting for that.

For something, a light
in the eye that changes.

And when you notice it and then
you notice it again, then you

realize, hey, there's a person in
there, there's a personality there.

And that just, just grabbed me.

I wanted to help that, I wanted
to be a part of helping that.

Rupert Isaacson: You used the
word forgiveness just now.

That's an interesting choice of words.

What did you learn about
forgiveness as a, as a teen

growing up with these, these folks?

Jason Barrett: It just seemed like, you
know, intention really means something.

Intention means something.

And a lot of people can get caught
in the action or the word and

ignore the intention that was meant.

And maybe that was a
mistake, a wrong word.

Maybe you did the wrong
thing at the wrong time.

But the forgiveness aspect, learning,
learning from them is that whatever

mistakes there were to happen if
you were late, if, if you lost their

shirt or they, they didn't come back
with their favorite cup the next day.

If you were still investing in
them in their time that was gone.

There was, there was an opportunity to
rebuild almost immediately in most cases

of the people that I've worked with, it
seems like that that's able, now I could

imagine through nature, nurture nurture
that you could be developed in a different

way and somebody could be very skittish.

And there have been people that I've met
that I've seen that may have been abused

along the way or, or were hurt people
that, that don't respond the same way.

But in general, that's it.

You get a, you get a second chance
without a slap in the face or,

you know, without the grief.

Rupert Isaacson: So you're saying
you are really talking about people

forgiving you, your mistakes.

Jason Barrett: Yeah.

People forgiving.

Yeah.

Just learning to forgive.

Right.

Basically.

Learning to forgive because either
it's a non-issue and you shouldn't

have made that big of a deal of it
in the first place, Uhhuh, or it's

something that can be passed over
for the value of your relationship.

Or it's something you
have to handle directly.

Maybe they're doing something
wrong that day and you really have

to, to make sure they understand
this is not a safe behavior.

You cannot do this.

Mm-hmm.

That may be different, but, and they may
hate you in the moment, but it just seems

like there's always that opportunity
to start over in that population.

You have a chance to help.

Rupert Isaacson: Can you talk about how
did you work with these people at camps?

Smile, like how did
you organize their day?

What was the, yeah, what
was the structure of it?

And then through that and those
activities, how did you, what did

you learn about human development?

Neuroplasticity, how the brain works.

Jason Barrett: We had a structure,
like a typical camp program.

You'd wake up and have a day full
of activities and, and scattered in

between breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

But it was a little different in
that the, the, the intimacy of

the closeness to each other was.

Was necessary because you
had to take care of these.

They had, they couldn't shower
themselves, bathe themselves,

use the restroom by themselves.

A lot of times we had
wheelchairs that worked total

paraplegics that, and diapers.

So you've got a range of at that time, 12
to 20 year olds who are leading this under

a couple of incredible mentors in my life.

CSY Lowell and Martha White.

They were two of the directors that
were at the time, and, and they had

a, a real heart for it, you know,
and, and the social ability, I really

learned a lot from both of them about
being open, leading a group, you know,

trying, keeping engagement involved.

So anyway, that's, that's the
days we're set up like that.

We get up, have bre, get everybody ready,
have breakfast, and start some events.

And that event would depend on what your.

Camper was capable of doing.

Not everybody could do the same thing.

So you might be playing baseball
that day and your camper can't hold

a bat, or maybe it doesn't have arms.

There's, there's no talent.

So you're gonna find some creative way
to play that game with them and you'll

follow, we'd follow them through the game.

So nothing was necessarily required
outside of the organization of

having people in the right places.

But you'd be introduced to an activity, to
a dance just like any other normal camp.

So the point was to give them a
opportunity at a life that felt like what

us normies get the opportunities that we
may have at a camp situation like that.

How do you

Rupert Isaacson: help someone
with no arms play baseball?

Jason Barrett: Well, you
could do a lot of things.

You can hold the bat between your knees.

If they're sitting in a wheelchair,
they could hold the bat between their

knees, drop the T down low, and you turn
the wheelchair and let 'em smack it.

And it's a small hit.

And these tiny victories, you
know, sometimes that's a, that's

a problem with some of these young
kids that look at these games and

look at what these people can do.

And it's, it's so limited.

It's, you know, they may laugh
at it or they may think it's you

know, what is the point of it.

But when you spend the time with the
person who's engaged in it, and they've

never had the opportunity to do that
before, it becomes a whole new thing.

So you can find a joy and excitement
in that if you're willing to look.

So, yeah, there's, there's
ways you could do that.

You may, it may be a situation where you
slide your arms around him and hold the

bat for them or her and hit the ball.

Mm-hmm.

Whatever you have to do to make
them a part of the thing so that

they're not sitting on the sidelines.

That was my introduction to the special
needs world and, and that population.

And, and it was always, as you
mentioned before, nothing stops.

You.

You're gonna get to the next event.

You're gonna go to the next thing.

Everybody's gonna get a
chance to participate.

We're gonna make it happen in whatever
that, whatever that obstacle is.

And man, those are some great foundations.

Those great foundations that are I

Rupert Isaacson: how, but it
still blows my mind that you as a.

American Teen Boy or whatever nationality,

Jason Barrett: right.

Rupert Isaacson: Dealing
with, you know, adult diapers.

What, what do you think was your
special superpower that you could

do that and be required to do that?

And at that age, not with some
later maturity, but at that age.

'cause 'cause the teenage years, we
are hardwired as you know, the human

brain is hardwired to be self-absorbed.

The, you know, brain is not
growing you know, all, at all

the same pieces at the same time.

And we know that nature designs us
at sort of toddlerdom and adolescence

to go through these periods of
self-absorption where you sort of

formulate first the personality of
childhood and then the personality.

That will lead you into adulthood,
but they come with this.

Yeah.

Almost a kind of a built in narcissism

that doesn't really usually
go with like adult diapers.

That blows my mind.

It makes sense.

Why?

What, what was different about your brain?

Jason Barrett: There was no, now there's
no, there are no saints in the room here.

So there's plenty of looking back and,
and thinking, man, that was a stupid

decision or Wow, I could have been a
little more considerate about that.

So there's, first of all,
let's right the ship.

There was no perfect role going there.

But we had a great community at the time.

So coming into the, the camp,
it was already established.

So I think that would be the, that
would be, there had to be mentorship.

There had to be somebody that directed
that path, because that wasn't

intrinsic to me yet at the time.

Yeah.

You know, I took these things
from those opportunities.

So that would be the thing.

Mentorship.

And it's something we learned, especially
when we started developing Alisa School

of Equestrian Arts for therapeutic
horseback riding, was that it just,

it really dawned on me later in life
as I got involved in other states and

places in special with the special needs
community, that there is just a timeframe

that just like everything else, and I
believe fully between eight, 10 years

old, 14, 15 years old, that is a special
time in development and that is a time

you can take a child and inspire them.

That inspiration stick and become
something I feel like, and I'm not,

obviously things can happen at any time,
but man, that is a sweet spot and I've

learned that over and over again as we've
sent generations of teenagers through

our volunteer program that you know, if
you catch 'em at 16 or, you know, they

might be a little too late when they're
driving around and have their own interest

in their own life and they can be fully
self-absorbed, you know, they can be.

But I was doing this, like I said, at 12.

I wasn't going anywhere on my own.

Camp was the place where
I made my friends as well.

So it was definitely a
community involvement.

And when I walked in, the leadership
at the time maintained enthusiasm.

I mean, that's a, it's a big deal in all
of these programs that we see around the

country and, and what we've done ourself.

If there's no enthusiasm
in it, it's short.

It's going to be short-lived.

And so that enthusiasm is infectious.

So I, I believe that with it being that
it was a, it was a perfect storm for me.

It's not the normal story.

For sure as you're alluding to, it's not
the normal story, but there were hundreds

of other kids that helped out in the
same way I did that were all teenagers.

So, it's not a lone story.

So I think it was the community, the
factor that we came in there that I was

interested in doing in the first place.

I had a heart and mind for that,
just, that's just how I grew up.

And then coming in there and meeting
like-minded people with some leadership

that were really heartfelt, involved
all the way through every aspect of it.

To be there walking with
you through the steps.

That was an infectious time.

We had an incredible
time at that time period.

I've watched it change through the
years and there's been pros and

cons that have come and developed,
but there was a magic time there.

I'm sure you remember some of those
times before there were cell phones and

recordings and everybody had to second
guess everything with a thousand choices.

Yeah, it was just something
special in that time.

So that was probably
what instilled it in me.

Like I said, it didn't just
start there, but it grew.

That's, that's the place that grew my
character and, and the direction that I

hope to take my life and future family.

Rupert Isaacson: I've got a question.

It's a bit of a provocative question.

You say that this happened through
the Southern Baptist Church?

Yeah.

Yep.

Well, you know, Southern Baptist Church
I lived, I've lived in the South.

Mm-hmm.

A lot.

And I've observed some not good things.

Through that church.

Yeah.

And one of the issues of it is it
was one of only two churches that

I know of that sort of wrote a
theology designed to justify slavery.

The other one is the, is the church of
some of my ancestors, which is the Dutch

Reform Church in South Africa, which
sort of rewrote its rules to allow for

apartheid in South Africa, you know,
the separation of whites and blacks.

And there's a, you know, an age
old joke where, you know, the white

priest, the PE as they call them,
is coming to church and there's a

black person down on their knees.

Mm-hmm.

And they said, what are you doing in here?

Was like, you know, I'm,
I'm cleaning the floor boss.

And he goes, well, all right, but
don't let me catch you praying.

And yeah, but you know, we know
that the Southern Baptist Church

was related to the Ku Klux Klan.

We know that it, it was, and even
pre that, you know, came out very,

very much in favor of a theology.

And, you know, you don't actually
have to try very hard because the Old

Testament is actually full of slavery
because the old Hebrews kept slaves.

As did actually the early
Christians in the Roman Empire

Jason Barrett: been around for a long

Rupert Isaacson: time.

Slaves, sometimes they kept slaves.

But point being, you
understand what I'm saying?

There has been a really toxic relationship
with compassion, anti compassion, really

through the Southern Baptist Church.

But you clearly have had a,
an, an experience with it that

was completely the opposite.

I find that intriguing.

Why do you think that was

Jason Barrett: one?

I was 12.

So these thoughts and these
contemplations, but they

were clearly these thoughts
would've been there at the time.

Two, obviously like everything, it's made
up of individuals with different character

and different principles, and you can't
throw out the baby with the bath water.

Hmm.

So, that's, I guess that's it For me,
it was just, that's just who I was.

I was about, my family was full of love.

There was no abuse.

And my immediate family where there were
and degenerations before where there

was trauma and stuff, and my immediate
household, my parents protected us.

We were loved.

We had family and friends.

So, to be.

There, the church, that was it.

I went, it was a comforting place
and all that as I grew and learned

more and more about things.

And actually one of the biggest things
that, that kind of, well, there was,

there's plenty, there's plenty of
things to shake your mind on the

formulation of human's idea of, of
religion but in all its aspects.

But the actual camp that we're
talking about, camp Smile was

based out of a campgrounds that
was known as the Baptist Assembly.

It was owned and operated by them,
and so it was a charitable venture.

So growing up I'm just
like, oh, this is great.

They're helping these people and
we're doing this thing and this camp,

you know, as I grew up, later on I
realized that that, well, that cost a.

Shit ton of money.

They're, they're making bank down
here in this tiny little town

where there is no other option.

And it's, and all, all the efforts
to keep these programs alive.

At that time, it wasn't
backed by any larger groups.

Now it's backed by United Cerebral
Palsy and they run and they're well

funded and, and all that stuff.

So back then it was grassroots still.

And so every dime was going to pay
this place off, and none of the

investment that went back into the
property helped the camp at all.

For instance, a building was built
without wheelchair regulations, so you

couldn't fit all the campers in and out
of air and the shower houses and stuff.

Ridiculous.

So anyway, long story short.

There's plenty of bad in each of
the religions I've, I've visited.

So, so yeah.

So for me, that was it.

There was I didn't have any other
situations I knew of in that church.

There was a problem with a pastor who
had messed, who had defiled a child or

there was a, there was an issue late.

I mean, it's just disgusting.

You hear it all the time and
it's, it's, it's disheartening.

But at the same time, in that building,
there are mothers and families who

are loving and accepting and trying
to help their kids grow and don't

think an ill thought about anyone.

So I find that to be true.

Most places I go, unfortunately, the
ugly stuff sticks out and you have to

pay attention to it because it may be
a part of the whole program, you know?

But

Rupert Isaacson: you, you say
a particular youth pastor that

you had was not like that.

He was actually a particularly good.

Person,

Jason Barrett: particularly Good person.

Yeah.

A sweet spirit.

You know, when you meet somebody that
has a sweet spirit, that has a kind

spirit, a kind disposition and he was,
that, he was, he was young at the time.

I think he was probably only in his
early twenties recently married.

He was married.

While it was just a, a sweet guy.

I actually met him years later.

I, I found him.

We had, I took him to lunch to tell
him how much I appreciated him making

that moment or seeing whatever he
did and said that to me and how much

it's developed and how it's helped
me build and grow my family and, and

the network of acquaintances we have
that are as close as family, so.

Mm-hmm.

So yeah, he was, he was a genuine guy.

He in that, he was one of the guys
who brought out that situation

against one of the pastors
that had happened in the place.

So it was tough.

It was a tough thing then.

I was a child.

I knew nothing about it.

Heard things later on.

But it seems to be
pretty normal everywhere.

Yeah.

So I.

I gave up the organized
religion thing a while ago.

I, I believe there's something amazing
and bigger out there, but I'm not

smart enough to tell you or anybody
else what it is, so we keep looking.

Well, at

Rupert Isaacson: what point did you,
you know, I, I want to go in obviously

to the career that you've had and how
you've built this, this incredible world

that you, you have with this thing called
equestrian chaos, which is of course,

actually anything but chaotic, because
yeah, it requires ridiculous amounts of

structure, but it's a spectacular, a lot
of organizations thing that you guys do.

But just before we start going to
how you and Sise put that together

and made a go of it at what point
did you move away from religion?

Because, you know, it, it can
be very difficult when you

grow up with those supports.

To not become really attached
to them just culturally.

Mm-hmm.

And also from a point of view
of, you know, safety or perceived

safety, you know, security, perceived
security and that sort of thing.

It, it, it's, it's difficult to leave.

What was the process?

I

Jason Barrett: think first I'd
have to say our relationship

with the church was casual.

In, in the beginning it
was, I mean, we were there.

I was, I was young and, and filled
with the Holy Spirit and everything

that was going on in the room.

But my family's relationship was
fairly casual with the church.

So we weren't every Sunday
goers and all that stuff.

Me,

Rupert Isaacson: so you, you,
you are very much in this

church-based thing from 12 to 20.

But yet at a certain point,
you away from it, right?

The church thing

Jason Barrett: faded.

Yeah.

Okay.

I'm back, back with you.

The church thing sort of faded during
those years as a teenager would grow and,

and do things that a teenager would enjoy
to do that go against the, the Holy Bible.

But but so that, there was
a little decline there.

And, but still that was
in my heart, you know?

It was, it was a desire, you know, I
wanted people to have the best thing

in the world and the best thing in the
world was going to heaven, you know?

Yeah.

That's what I, that's what I learned.

Why would you not wanna do that?

That's the best thing you could have,
is to end your life in paradise.

So that was that was it.

But like I said, it, it faded away.

Really wasn't much of a
consequence on becoming a graduate.

Parents divorced.

I'm kind of doing my own thing
back and forth out of college.

And then I I had a instance
where a guy knocked on my door.

One of Jehovah's Witnesses knocked
on the door, he said to me.

So just, we're just walking through the
neighborhood and talking today about,

you know, where do you see the state
of the world and it, where it's going.

And I said, well, I, I think it's
it's good, but it's kind of rough now.

It's probably gonna get worse
and it'll get a lot better.

And that was my, it's get him out the
door finish this conversation quickly.

And he was like, oh man,
that's a very insightful thing.

Anyway, that conversation led to two years
of studying the scriptures with this guy.

Couple days a week.

How old?

I was 18.

Okay.

18, 19 or so.

Then

Rupert Isaacson: the Jehovah's
Witnesses got you for a while?

Jason Barrett: Oh yeah, they
got me for a little bit.

Sure did.

So we studied the Bible a little
bit and that's when the pictures

of religion started to crumble.

What I liked about.

That is that they were doing the work
that I had heard all these churches were

supposed to be doing the whole time I
was in church where they were actually

walking around and really talking to
people at telling 'em about Jesus and

how great life was, stuff like that.

So that was appealing that they
were actually doing the work.

I was sort of in turmoil 'cause I wasn't
sure where I was gonna go from there.

University was a drag, you know?

I did not enjoy the things
I was learning at the time.

Didn't seem to have a place to go with it.

I wanted to be an occupational therapist.

And then I did some work in the
field and realized that turned

into very specific work that you
do over and over again forever.

So that appeal was gone.

So anyway, so then I decided I'd help
people find their way to forever.

So then I started with the Jehovah's
Witness preaching and teaching.

I did that for about two years.

Moved to Georgia.

Where I did this, walking through
the streets, held Bible studies with

folks and, and and as much as I look
back at that and go, yeah, that's just

another religion created by men after
the fact, the lessons I learned at

that time, I would've hate to give up.

I learned to speak to people under.

The worst circumstances.

You know, you're going door to
door speaking interpersonally with

folks, giving lectures in big halls.

All the things that came to be something
that would be a valuable contribution

to my family and my life in the future.

Were nailed in strong in two years.

You know, you, you walk up to
somebody's who door who doesn't

wanna talk about the Bible.

That's, that's a tough conversation.

And you walk up to somebody's door
who wants to talk about the Bible?

That's a tough conversation.

You gotta, there's a lot that
could happen in between there.

So, so yeah, what a, what a learning
opportunity that was for me.

But in the big picture of religion and
all that stuff, it just boiled down to

these are, these are, you know, men's,
they're taking a stab at things older

than everything they know, and decisions
and words passed down through generations

by mouth before they ever hit the pen.

It, it just all kind of flows the same.

So from then on, I, I, I vowed
to, engage my surroundings.

Everything in my world that
I could touch or influence.

There's, there's, there's my
religion, there's my spirituality.

I want to give much.

But How did you, how did you go?

Rupert Isaacson: The Jehovah's
Witnesses don't like to let people go.

How did you, how did
you get away from that?

Jason Barrett: You know,

Rupert Isaacson: there's a lot of,

Jason Barrett: there's a lot of stories
in both directions about how things work.

It was very simple.

I just didn't go anymore.

It was no, there was no lockdown
procedures or things like that.

What

Rupert Isaacson: was the deciding factor?

For me, the

Jason Barrett: deciding factor was
well, the contemplations that I

was having about, okay, where does,
where do the roots of this go?

What drew me in was the tight-knit
community, the appreciation for

learning and for understanding,
for actually doing the work.

That's what, that's what drew me in.

I even traveled to London with a
family, stayed there for a while,

and learned same thing regardless
of what continent we were on.

They had a similar thing.

There was lots of dark things in
there too that I've learned over the

years afterwards or have heard about.

But anyway, that was what
drew me in the beginning.

That's what it was.

It was a good community and they were
teaching and doing, doing the stuff

they said they were gonna be doing.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

But what then made you
think you wanted to leave?

Jason Barrett: That was when I was
realizing that all of these things are

just, are just the contemplations of men.

You know, these things.

It doesn't matter how you get there.

It doesn't matter if they're
right or they're wrong.

They could be.

And they came from the thoughts of
men trying to organize ideas that

were too big for them to grasp.

And that's, that began it.

And then I saw in that particular
situation, there was a friend of mine

that was working for a guy who was, I
didn't like those situations so well.

I thought he was kind of
being taken advantage of.

And I said, you know what?

I think we're just right
back at square one again.

So, we're out.

Okay.

And that was it.

That was, that was the end of it.

Rupert Isaacson: And then, then
you're twenties, so you went,

did you go off to college?

Jason Barrett: I did.

I went to college for a little while
at University of South Alabama.

And then after I left the witnesses,
I started in the corporate world

went to like I mentioned, I
wanted to do occupational therapy.

Found out that wasn't it.

I got a job right after working with
the witnesses with Kohl's department

stores, traveling the country and setting
up new stores and new areas and stuff.

So that was great.

I got a taste of travel, but then that
became the same thing as everything else.

Retail, you're filling shelves
with shit so that people can

pick it up and throw it away.

So I just can't see where that
could be satisfying life for me.

Anyway, so that had to go.

And then of course, I, I
decided to it's a wildlife.

I've changed a lot of things.

So from there I decided that I
needed to be interacting with people.

I wanted to help people
individually again, so I decided

to be a massage therapist.

However actually a, a, a
note that I am proud of.

During that time with Kohls, I
was able to, when it was getting

depressing to be in that type of work
lifestyle, I was able to integrate a

special needs program at the store.

Okay.

So we were able to bring in
employees with special needs.

Had a guy with Down syndrome
and a guy with traumatic brain

injury and a guy with autism.

They, they were able to come in
the store and they were working

with a local organization there.

But that ended up working out and
even 15 years later, one of those

guys still had his job at that store.

So it was pretty cool.

We did a couple of foundation walks,
met some really beautiful people.

And, and more importantly than that,
I got people in the store accustomed

to being around those people with
special needs and finding something

cool about 'em, you know, where they
could slap PI five and, and be in a

store with people that worked there
for 15 years and have a relationship.

So that was really fun.

So that was a little touch back into
the special needs department while

I was trying to find myself again.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so

tell us now.

What you do now, and then we're gonna
backtrack to how you got that going.

In a nutshell, tell us what you do.

So now, if we scratch

Jason Barrett: everything I've just
told you, we are a traveling, performing

family through equestrian chaos.

I am the mc from my family.

We perform on stage doing
horseback, archery, and

acrobatics around the country.

We're in our fourth year of
coast to coast national travels.

All that spawned from the
heart of everything we do.

Alisa's School of the Equestrian Arts
our therapeutic horseback riding program.

And equestrian Chaos was just
the backyard fundraiser for

that ended up saving the day.

So right now we both run both
equestrian chaos and incredible

trick riding troop and archery
troop that travels the country.

And we run Ali School Equestrian
Arts and innovative therapeutic

horseback riding program that
marries trick riding and performance

arts with therapeutic horseman.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

And you, the mc and of course
the person that you know,

organizes it and keeps going.

In that story you told us about childhood,
adolescence and early adulthood.

I didn't hear anything about horses.

Jason Barrett: Not a drop.

There were two stories.

There were two stories.

We were at a party, a barn party,
and one of my buddies says, Hey, you

think we could ride those horses?

So we hopped on the horses
and came off very quickly.

And then one other time I was trying
to date a girl and she had horses,

so I went for a ride with her.

Same result truck flew by
on the road, horse jumped.

I came off and walked my way back to
the bar to find the horse and the girl.

But that was it.

So yeah, horses were a new concept
to me when I met my beautiful bride.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Okay.

So

Jason Barrett: talk to us about that.

So that would take us back to
leaving a job that was, not for

me, for something I wanted to do.

I wanted to help people.

So I decided to become
a massage therapist.

Another, another line which again
helped me incredibly later on.

So I, I took a job went to a school
in Florida near Orlando, who was

owned by the parent company that owns
all the spas on the cruise ships.

So I had an idea to travel internationally
to find the next step while I was

doing something I could enjoy doing.

That was the whole plan.

Everything was set and done.

That was where it was going to
go, and it started that direction,

but it didn't finish there.

So I flew down to Orlando, started
training found a job at the Dolly Parton,

Dixie Stampede no longer called such.

'cause those words are bad, but,

and what was

Rupert Isaacson: the Dolly?

Partons Dixie Stampede.

And why'd you get a job?

So it's a's.

It was a dinner show.

Jason Barrett: It was a, it
was a theater Dinner show

was Stampede.

Definitely.

So Massage Therapy school during the
day, working at the Stampede at night.

I was a waiter there.

They were a huge theater.

Oh.

So it was like a dinner show?

It was a dinner theater.

Massive dinner theater.

And it was an equestrian show.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,

Jason Barrett: it was an equestrian show.

Yeah.

They did a north, north versus the
south type of trick riding and flags

and dance and all kinds of stuff.

That's, that's the way it ran.

And, and Sise was a performer in there,
and I, I noticed her very quickly from

the stands above as she was riding around.

And so we made our acquaintance
and turned that into a hot and

heavy eight month romance with,
with our own plans and intentions.

She had painted the backdrop for an a
seventh generation Italian circus family,

and was planning to go on the road
with their youngest troops heading out.

And I had made arrangements in
London to train and travel the world.

So we took off willing to separate
and leave our lives behind for the new

lives we had in different directions.

Different directions, completely.

So I make it to London.

And on a payphone I found out
there's a bun in the oven.

She, we've got a little baby
cooking down there in mama's belly.

So we had no intention of getting back
together and at the time, you know,

finding that, that news very striking
and quite uncomfortable considering I'd

sold my car and moved to, we were gone.

Total separation.

So, anyway, it was a tough time.

Finding that beautiful bit of
information out can sometimes be

tough and it was tough for us.

So we didn't want to commit to
each other just because of that.

We wanted to commit to each other
for the reasons of love and a desire

to live together and strive for it.

So we didn't make that
commitment right away.

But I did return, got
my contract cut short.

We met each other in Tampa, Florida,
where she was living at the time.

And that's about it.

That's pretty much the transition
where we brought it to mobile and

began building everything we have.

So we were in Tampa, big
city, not the place for us.

I knew the connections I had here
in mobile with some incredible

people and opportunities.

So I took us, we, we, we sold
everything we had at a yard sale.

This is fun.

We made 1300 bucks.

We had a Honda element that she had
bought on the a earlier before I

come back from the cruise ship, we
bought a $900 two horse trailer.

We piled everything we had into the back
of the Honda Element, hooked up a trailer

and two horses, and drove to mobile
to see what we could do on 1300 bucks.

So that was the start of our adult life.

And you with

Rupert Isaacson: no horse experience,

Jason Barrett: zero horse
experience whatsoever, but

Rupert Isaacson: you found yourself
hooked to a very driven and

organizationally minded, horse person.

Jason Barrett: Oh yeah, sure, sure.

I did.

You know so well.

Yeah.

We had a, we had a plan.

She had everything organized.

We had, we had no, yeah, not none of that.

There was no plan.

We had, as you could tell, the life
just keeps changing from one Yeah.

Interesting dimension to the next.

So this was the next,
so I brought her home.

Rupert Isaacson: Go ahead.

Also as a, she's, she's
at this stage a performer.

Equestrian performer.

Well, that's not gonna happen when
you're pregnant, and it might not happen

for a while after the baby arrives.

So what was the plan
economically at that point?

Jason Barrett: Economically was
come back and I'd work as a massage

therapist, she'd, we'd get side jobs.

We had a connection through camp that
was happy to have us come and, and have

our horses on their property for a while.

The camp mom came through,
get self established camp,

came through again, connect.

Yeah.

Camp Staple, the horses.

These,

yes.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

There was a, one of the old camp moms
that was a mother of one of the guys

that was same age I was at the time.

She had a husband that was a horseman.

They had a property and a farm with plenty
of room and two horses wasn't too much.

So we came back and knowing nothing, we
pull into the yard at two o'clock in the

morning way late, you know, about four
or five hours late the first time we met

'em, you know, in, in 10 years or so.

That's kind of the way we rolled.

We had no idea what we were doing.

We just kept pushing and, and made
it happen and, and found incredible

people to help us along the way.

Rupert Isaacson: As you know, if
you followed any of my work, I'm

an autism dad and we have a whole
career before this podcast in helping

people with neurodivergence, either
who are professionals in the field.

Are you a therapist?

Are you a caregiver?

Are you a parent?

Or are you somebody with neurodivergence?

When my son, Rowan, was
diagnosed with autism in 2004,

I really didn't know what to do.

So I reached out for mentorship, and
I found it through an amazing adult

autistic woman who's very famous, Dr.

Temple Grandin.

And she told me what to do.

And it's been working so
amazingly for the last 20 years.

That not only is my son basically
independent, but we've helped

countless, countless thousands
of others reach the same goal.

Working in schools, working at
home, working in therapy settings.

If you would like to learn this
cutting edge, neuroscience backed

approach, it's called Movement Method.

You can learn it online, you
can learn it very, very simply.

It's almost laughably simple.

The important thing is to begin.

Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr.

Grandin and see what results can follow.

Go to this website, newtrailslearning.

com Sign up as a gold member.

Take the online movement method course.

It's in 40 countries.

Let us know how it goes for you.

We really want to know.

We really want to help people like
me, people like you, out there

live their best life, to live
free, ride free, see what happens.

Okay.

Now I know your daughter Marley.

And I think we can all agree
that it's a very good thing

that she came into the world.

Damns an incredible performer.

On horseback.

She's also an incredibly
talented musician.

And just a general all round, you
know, radically amazing person.

And of course is a, a big part
of, of your family business.

How did equestrian chaos begin and how did
you get something that really shouldn't

be economically viable unless your Dolly
Parton can put a couple of million into

it and then probably still just walk away
with 1 million of the two that you put in?

How did this come about and
how did you make it work?

Jason Barrett: Nothing
happened just from our efforts.

We've had a great.

Community of people involved in what
we've done so that there is credit

to be given and, and making great
relationships, you know, and taking the

time to care about people enough that
they in turn care about you and that

it's you, you see purpose together.

So yeah, between family and
the people have helped grow it.

That's, that's, that's where that was.

But equestrian chaos became what
it was actually as a saving.

I mean, it became the saving
grace of everything we were doing.

We, we began as Ali's School of Equestrian
Arts before we were a nonprofit.

And, it started first taking
Kristen to Camp Smile again.

So when we first moved back to Mobile,
as mentioned, I took her to Camp Smile.

We had her do some tricks
on her, on her horse.

Oh, like a performance for
the kids, for the campers.

Yeah.

We did a little performance across
the field for the campers, maybe

three or four runs, doing some
tricks while they were out there.

They loved it and everything.

It was, it was a great opportunity.

It gave me the chance to, to
show her and have my daughter

in the place that built me.

Okay.

So that was a very important moment.

And then the next year it.

They were able to leave that
Baptist assembly facility by the

grace of another family in town.

The Davis and Debbie Pilot family,
they offered this remarkable campground

to them and four other camps.

They're very affluent family here in town.

And, and they made this new campground
available, 200 acres well built, put

together everything that you could
need accessible bathhouses, just,

they sunk a ton of money into making
this beautiful place for these camps.

And, and that's where we did a lot
of our work for nearly 14 years.

So, those, those those places were built.

And then, as, as the camp died off there.

The the horseback rider, which
this is something we could get into

too, is horseback camp programs.

Man, they're tough to run.

Yeah, they're so the camp was
changing changing properties and

the, the director of the horseback
program couldn't make it happen.

So we got the calls Sessie, the mentor
I mentioned before, called me and said,

Hey, do you think you guys could do this?

You know, I was like, I'm sure she can.

I was working somewhere else that time.

She's capable, she could
do it, you know, I'll help.

So, and she had had some
relationship and, and interaction

with the special need population.

She had a cousin that she grew up with
in the po and so she, she knew, but she

hadn't had that day to day lifestyle.

Whatever happens, everything goes,
there's a way to work around it that,

that I had developed in that area.

So that worked out really well.

So we got into, we got
into the program there.

That's how we started.

And had no idea about business or the cost
of horsemanship or anything at that point?

Absolutely no idea.

No idea which would turn
around to bite us in the ass.

Big time, a couple years down the road.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

You know,

how did it turn?

How did it bite you in the ass?

Jason Barrett: Well, you
don't know what to expect.

You don't know what to ask for
any, any new venture without market

research and knowing what it is.

And when you're in such an niche, niche
area, there's not a lot of market research

for what we would do and how we would
grow that and how it works seasonally.

What do you do in the off
times and these things?

So, for an entire week of.

Programming at a camp where we
would use 15 to 20 horses, we would

see a hundred special needs or
disabled children or adults per week.

And we'd go on a mile and a
quarter trail ride around a lake.

We, we went big.

I mean, we went really big.

We gave everything that we had at the
time and that, and that with about

12 volunteers trained a couple months
beforehand and kept up with throughout

the year so they know what they're do.

That was a $3,000 week,

and it's embarrassing to say that
we thought that could actually work.

You know, years later we found out we were
actually spending money from our rest of

our budget just to keep the camps going.

Yeah.

I'm sure when we finally learned to,
to count it and ask and count the

cost and, and look forward we were
like, wow, this is not sustainable.

That was about the time when we
we're we, but it's also a passion.

We needed it to happen.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

And a learning curve and apprenticeship,

Jason Barrett: learning
curve, all that stuff.

But it was, it had to happen.

It was, it was so good, so good at
the place, you know, we're gonna

keep working and make it happen.

And we, we negotiated to change things,
but you know, when you come in, you come

in and it's all for nonprofits and they're
supposed to be nonprofit organizations

and nobody makes money, right?

You just falls out of the air
and works in the programs.

So that's the impression
that a lot of people get.

But that wasn't the case.

We were we were running dry.

We had big programs through the
year where we'd have 50, we'd do a

spring, winter, and fall session at
home where we had our own therapeutic

riding program that was running.

And even with 50 regular students at, at
times, three instructors half of those at

times were in special needs population.

We could not make ends meet.

We were just, the only reason that
we made it work was because of the

generosity of the family that I mentioned
that gave us a property after seeing

the work we did at those campgrounds.

Mm.

With those populations.

And seeing, actually seeing equestrian
chaos show our first shows out

there, he was a horse minded person
and he thought it was incredible.

He said one of his comments were,
you know, when you're looking to

invest in something, you want to find
something that you've never seen before.

You know, that was one
of the things he said.

And this was something he
definitely never seen before.

So with the things we had and the
fit, it was absolutely perfect.

Him and his family offered us this
beautiful property to start our program.

Eight Stall Barn, beautiful little house.

And we lived on that
property raising our family.

For 12, 12 years we were on that property.

Amazing opportunity.

Rupert Isaacson: However, I remember
I visited you on that property.

Yeah, it was, it was, it was
lovely with the big oaks.

Jason Barrett: Absolutely.

Okay.

Rupert Isaacson: You knew
nothing about horses.

I know.

You suddenly go into the specialist end
of professional horsemanship serving

special needs, which is a specialist thing
that takes lots of training by itself.

And usually people get into that after
they've already got a couple of days,

decades of horsemanship under their belt.

Because as we know, the dangers are huge.

How did you accelerate that learning curve

Jason Barrett: experience?

Well, we went right at the
need was there, and there was

no one else to fill the need.

So on the one hand, I guess least

Rupert Isaacson: your wife could,
could mentor you to a large degree.

Jason Barrett: She filled the need
for the, she's an incredible horseman.

I mean, she's, yeah, she

Rupert Isaacson: is.

Jason Barrett: She's, she's
been at it for a long time.

She's passionate, she's
connected to the animals.

She, she just knows things that
I don't pick up or see 'cause

of her lifetime of experience.

Mm-hmm.

Although I've learned, I learned a lot.

You know, there's a lot more to learn.

But yeah, so she, she was all of that,
everything that we needed for horses.

She could be that we
needed to calm horses.

We needed rhythmic horses.

We didn't know at the time, but
the rhythmic horses that we were

used to training for the, for the
performances and the work we did

she did was were just right and I
knew how to communicate and to work.

Very closely with the
community and the family.

I've had years of over a decade of
experience already in that realm.

Mm-hmm.

So the two coming
together was, was perfect.

And under the, the, like I said, under
the mentorship of CEESI, the director

of Camp Smile at the time, she brought
Kristen in, and after that first.

We did a first trial year
just to kind of work with it.

We'd already been working with
some kids and it went great.

We had a great summer season with them.

And then so then she worked it out
with, as the camp had been purchased,

our, our owned now by United Cerebral
Palsy, she worked out a grant for

her to go to Equest and trained
in the Path International Program.

Right.

That was then it was named something
else, but it's become Path International.

It's called

Rupert Isaacson: NARA back then.

Yeah,

Jason Barrett: yeah.

Nara, yeah, that's exactly what it was.

So that's where she trained other, she
became the first PATH certified instructor

in Mobile, Alabama when we came back.

Okay.

So that's where we started.

Then she got her credentials there.

My knowledge was all experiential.

I, I'd been there, lived there, done that.

So I was key in training our
people on how to treat the

population as one of their own.

You know, there's, you can only go
so far with gloves on, you know?

Yes.

You have to be in the mix.

You know, it only gets so
personable when you're still

wearing the blue rubber gloves.

So, you need to know how to talk
and feel and, and help others be

comfortable around these loud noises or
erratic actions and things like that.

It's very uncomfortable for people.

I didn't know that because I
grew up as a child engulfing, you

know, there's drool falling on me.

We gotta clean up a diaper, somebody
laugh because, I mean, it didn't matter

to me, which was, which was something
I had to learn that it really didn't

matter to a lot of other people.

Those things kind of set
'em back a little bit.

Rupert Isaacson: I, with all my
experience with autism and so on, I

still shy away, you know, if I never
see another diaper in my life, I'm,

Jason Barrett: I'm good.

I'm good.

Hey, look, I'm fine with that too.

Don't get me wrong.

I'm not signing up for diaper change, but
if it's gotta be done, we'll get it done.

Yeah.

So, yeah, that was it.

So we came back, we
started the program there.

Running our program at home.

We were not making ends meet though
we were making enough to survive.

Hmm.

It's kind of like the, you
know, it's the, the blessing

and the curse, the golden egg.

You know, if it's always there,
do you have the drive to strive

further than, than what's set?

So we had that beautiful place
to, to be provided for us.

It made all of our budgeting make
believe, you know, in the real world.

So we had to adjust for that.

And then when we started to try and adjust
costs and pricing from that to try to be,

there was no chance to bridge that gap.

So we were pretty close.

And then then the COVID, the COVID
came, ah, that was our big switch up.

That really switched things for us.

Rupert Isaacson: So what happened?

What did you do?

Because the whole business
must have collapsed.

Yeah.

Jason Barrett: Yeah, it was huge.

I mean, all, most of our programming
was large group oriented programming.

You know, we couldn't be in large
groups anymore, so we lost all of our

spring and fall camps all of our summer
camp programming and all in all, and

over three years, we, we, we ended up
operating at a third of our budget,

which if we were not in that home,
there would've been, it was done deal.

And it was close to the
point of being a done deal.

As nothing was coming online fast enough.

The horses gotta stay, keep eating.

We've got 10 horses at the
time, 10, 12 horses at the time.

So that was tough.

We were still doing, so 2019, we did our
last as I mentioned, e equestrian chaos

was the fundraiser, backyard fundraiser
for our therapeutic riding school.

We'd make, you know, a thousand dollars.

What did you

Rupert Isaacson: do in this
backyard fundraiser, because this

has gone on to become a huge show.

So

Jason Barrett: yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: tell us about this.

Backyard fundraiser, sequestering chaos,

Jason Barrett: Paper mache masks
and kids hopping around over

each other's back at, at a camp.

That's just the silliest
little playful thing.

Introducing horses for those
who could start to ride.

And, and eventually we, we have a
team of, you know, at our biggest

show, 15, 15 to 16 members on the
stage, and half of those are part of

our rr Therapeutic writing students.

So we, it began very slow.

It was like a, it was the it was the, the
fun and excitement of the do good work

that kept, kept people coming back, you
know, for more so our, our volunteers.

Would you putting

Rupert Isaacson: special needs kids into
an equestrian circus performance many

people would say this can't be done.

Others would say it's too dangerous.

How did you do it and
how did you do it safely?

Jason Barrett: My wife
is incredible for one.

So she, she, she did a
lot working together.

You just take your time.

It's little steps, baby steps.

So, for instance, we have one of our
students was autistic and he was he

is, he is a hitter or runner, you
know, he likes to, likes to smack

and get out of the way at times.

Lash out and then un split.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's quick shot and then gone.

And the man, he talk about a
runner, man, you gotta, you

gotta work, catch that dude.

But that we would work at time, you'd
find something he liked, you'd find

he happened to like hot Cheetos.

So we'd sit him on a horse and hold out a
bag of hot Cheetos and he'd reach down low

and start to work on the, the abdominal
side muscles to worry about actually

being able to stand up on a moving
horse and move his leg off the saddle.

Lots of little baby steps starting at

Rupert Isaacson: And what
did you eventually get him?

What did you eventually get him doing?

Jason Barrett: He did,
he performed in the show.

He was in our last performance
he was standing on the horse in

what they call the Hippodrome.

So he is standing on the, on the
shoulders of the horse, is feeding some

straps tall above the sky in a full
extension with lights and sound and

everything jamming around the arena.

The horse going in a

Rupert Isaacson: run

Jason Barrett: in a run
in a circle around you.

Be

Rupert Isaacson: incredible.

Jason Barrett: And this is
someone who's barely verbal.

He's nonverbal.

Yeah, absolutely nonverbal.

It's certainly incredible.

Even I is

Rupert Isaacson: a special needs
dad who runs equestrian programs.

Jason Barrett: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Looking on
in impressed, flabbergasted.

Yeah.

You guys could do.

I remember when I brought Rowan,
my son out to you guys in 2019.

And Ali and the team Brooke,
you know, is also part of

your team who's so incredible.

Shout out to Brooke.

I had my son standing up.

On the back of a horse.

And this is a, despite the fact
that, you know, he's grown up

with horses around me, he has the
normal sort of autistic anxiety.

Jason Barrett: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: And but the little
micro structured micro steps that

Sise and Brooke took him through, and
then the absolute rock solid training

that was in that horse, that there
was just no question in anyone's mind

that one could trust this animal.

Was like something I, you know,
I, I, I travel in 40 countries

doing trainings all the time.

You just don't see this, you know.

Jason Barrett: We're aware now, you
know, it's, it's always that adage, you,

you, you don't, you can't see yourself,
you don't see your children grow up.

They're right there with you.

All of a sudden they're grown up.

It's the same thing
with this type of work.

It's, for us, it is so
normal and so possible.

It's hard to imagine someone
thinking it's not possible.

Yeah.

Which, which is, you know, a different,
it's hard to see both sides of that

coin, you know, when you've already
been to this side of it's just a

matter of slow steps and, and taking
your time and following their lead.

Much like you've learned
in all of your work.

It's all about following them.

Rupert Isaacson: It is and

Jason Barrett: following, finding who
they are and what they're attracted to

Rupert Isaacson: following
their and for us, their passion.

Yeah.

Jason Barrett: Yeah.

You gotta have their passion and, and,
and it's got to it's got to engage them.

It has to engage them.

And what we found a lot of times in
our ther therapeutic writing program

is that, yeah, we'd be good for a
few weeks, maybe a few months, maybe

even a whole year, but eventually it
wasn't enough to keep them engaged.

Some, some could do the same
thing over and over forever.

Yeah.

But many would lose interest, or
especially if they were on the autism

spectrum or, or a DHD really high, high
functioning, high energy, you know,

those people needed something more.

I some agree.

Rupert Isaacson: I mean, one, one
of the difficulties that I so often

encounter with the whole therapeutic
writing thing is that it's, it's boring.

You know, it's, it's dumbed down.

I mean, who wants to be led
around in circles slowly,

Jason Barrett: right.

Rupert Isaacson: For
more than a few times.

Jason Barrett: Right.

Rupert Isaacson: And then if it's not
gonna develop into anything, well,

yeah, you're probably gonna let it go.

And then, you know, the work we do with.

Veterans and so on.

And you know, you get someone back
from ex special forces guy back

from a hot zone and you tell him
to put a helmet on for safety.

Yeah, yeah.

And lead him or her around in
a slow circle and they're just

laughing at you, you know?

It only goes so

Jason Barrett: far like no wife.

Yeah.

That's, that's, that's
that's the way it is.

I think that people intend well but
there's another horrible consequence of it

being boring is that the horses get bored.

Rupert Isaacson: As you may know,
if you've been following my work,

we are also horsey folk here.

And we have been training horses for
many, many years in the manner of

the old classical dressage masters.

This is something which is
often very confusing for people.

We shine a light on that murky, difficult
stuff and make it crystal clear.

If you'd like to learn to train your
horse in the manner of the old masters and

really have fun and joy for you and your
equine, go to our website, heliosharmony.

com Sign up as a premium member.

and begin to take the Helios Harmony
course, which will take you from zero

to the Piaf, where the horse is dancing
on the spot in hand on the ground.

And then from there, you can
develop out to anywhere you want to.

Heliosharmony.

com to unlock the secrets
of the old masters.

Jason Barrett: They do.

I mean, the horses lose
enthusiasm as well.

These are living creatures just like us.

They gotta have a purpose
and a reason as well.

And, and if you live with them enough,
you actually know that firsthand.

Yeah.

So for us.

I mean, without our herd.

I mean, fortunately Kristen is an
incredible horse person, and she had that

training for the type of circus riding
the rhythmic movement of the horse that is

required to accomplish all the other feats
that you would see them do on a stage.

Was just the basic, you know, we came
here and put a, put a hay ground, hay

hay ringing on the ground and we're free
lunging horses in a hay ringing out there.

And everyone in town
is like, what the hell?

How do you do that?

Why is your horse not jumping
out of the hay ringing or

stepping over the hay ringing?

And it, and for me not being
a horsepower, I didn't know

what they were talking about.

I didn't know you had to have a
round pin with walls and panels.

I was like, our horses
do that in this circle.

It is perfectly fine.

So there is a measure of
training that matters.

You know, we, we, yeah, we
have, they were just incredible.

She did a wonderful job with our legacy
herd, that first one that started us.

It's so sad watching them.

It's sad and fulfilling watching
them move into the retirement life.

'cause we're at that point where we're
transitioning to the next herd and Yeah.

And the work that they've
done was just incredible.

Without the horses, there's nothing.

There was

Rupert Isaacson: nothing.

No.

A hundred, I wholeheartedly agree.

But yet the skill levels are insane.

So just for, to paint a picture
for listeners and viewers.

When you go and see an equestrian
chaos show, and I think you might

wanna Google equestrian chaos, what
you're gonna see is badass shit.

You're gonna see this team of expert
girl riders doing mounted archery,

but really difficult mounted archery
while in the craziest positions

on running horses accurately.

And then you're gonna see them pull
all kinds of stunts that are incredibly

dangerous in life threatening.

And yet you're gonna see them Roman
riding, standing on the back of two

horses doing extraordinary things.

And then you're gonna see them bringing
special needs people into the show.

It's a mindblower.

And one of the things which has
been so rewarding for me, kind of

cheering you guys from the sidelines.

I'm sort of feel like a bit of a little
cheerleader with my pompoms is you've

now achieved this level of success where
you travel nationally with this show as

well as maintaining this program at home.

How did it, how did it transform
from this backyard of, I know

COVID happened, you had to rethink.

Jason Barrett: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: But that was it.

But you suddenly achieved a kind
of level of success, which many

aspire to, I think, but few achieve.

Well, how did you, how did you do it?

Jason Barrett: I, I, you have
to venture outside of your

comfort zone and where you start.

For sure.

Well, indeed, but give

Rupert Isaacson: us, give

Jason Barrett: us, that's
a big part actually.

How, so?

The reason where that matters is
that we didn't know what we had here.

We didn't know how spectacular what
we were doing was, we really didn't.

We knew it was great, but we grew it
around our family and friends who just

saw, oh, that's what you do, you know,
that's what you're doing out there.

You know, so there's a girl hanging
upside down from one foot, shooting

a bow and hitting the target.

Well, you know, they do that all the time.

So this was our back, this was our
everyday life and everyone that we knew

in this small town of 200,000 that that
would be around to see it, there was

no real growth or excitement there.

The minute COVID hit and we
had to shut down our programs

with the therapeutic writing.

We took our act to a circus as an act.

We put it in the show, and then from.

A real performance audience.

An audience who came for paid
professional performances, they went nuts.

You know, they thought it
was absolutely incredible.

The performers we were working with,
they thought it was incredible.

They, you know, it was like
we pulled things off that they

didn't think would happen.

If something looked like it was
going to go wrong, it was fixed.

You know, we're very, we run a tight
ship, aside from the chaos in the name

we expect our show to be like clockwork.

We're gonna, yeah.

The chaos

Rupert Isaacson: comes from the, the
audience sitting on the edge of their

seat, you know, expecting a wreck.

Jason Barrett: They don't know
what they're about to see it.

No one knows it.

We've found on the road that even if
you go, so we're online everywhere.

Equestrian, chaos equestrian chaos.com

is our website.

We've got a video, talks about our
family and some really cool vi There's

lots of stuff out there, but traveling
around the country, we've come to find

that at any location we go to, it's
a two to three year lull before they

actually figure out what the hell they're

on

the stage.

So we'll have, it's been really exciting.

This in our third year in some of
our locations, people are showing up.

So we'll do a series of two to
four shows a day depending on what

we're, what we're engaged with.

And that first show is
generally lagging a little bit.

But not anymore.

Now people know who we are and we're
showing up at the very first show.

They're just packed out with people
and, and they, they've come to see it.

So it's really neat.

So in that vein, while we were home,
you got, there was none of that.

Yeah.

The minute we went out to
the circus, we heard that.

We're like, wow, that's something.

Then we got a job for
the, somebody called us.

We got a job for another fair.

We went and tried that blew their minds.

That's when we had I think
that was the first one.

We had a lady walk up to the
side of the arena after the show.

And she was in her seventies
and she was, she was a stout

woman, an intimidating woman.

Like she could probably whoop my ass.

And and she had a grimace on her
face and she came to the rail and,

and she was already tearing up,
like trying to hold her grimace

for some reason, but still crying.

And she said she said you guys.

Have just put on display
for me, a 70 year dream.

I was the first woman to ever compete in
the United States and mounted horseback

archery when they didn't want us to ride.

And what you just did, as she's
crying the whole time and I'm

like, damn, I had no idea.

You know, that's the connection
I'm used to because of our life

with the work and the population.

We'll win.

You, you get to feel heart very often.

Mm-hmm.

In that population, when
you give, you get it.

And so this was that under
this new circumstance.

So for me that was a big
moment big moment to credibly.

I don't know, just to impress on me how.

This can affect people, how people
can take this art so deeply and

now since then, hundreds of other
conversations similar to that children

just in awe and inspired to see you
little girls looking at my daughter

out there absolutely killing it.

Thinking that, Hey, I
could do that serious.

Yeah.

She's a role model for, you know,
it's like, it's, it's just what a

life, you know, what a life, yeah.

In,

Rupert Isaacson: in terms of female
empowerment, you know, because I

don't think you guys ever really
started it with that in mind.

I think it's just, if can correct
me if I'm wrong, but it was just

that those, that was the team you
decided get, there's more horse.

It could have just as easily
been some boys in the team.

It just happened not to be, but I
think you guys have become a bit

of an icon of female empowerment.

Jason Barrett: Yeah.

It's, it's it's exciting.

I mean, it's my, my.

My wife and my daughter out there.

And Brooke, as you mentioned Brooke Barre.

She leads our therapeutic
writing programming.

Now.

She's a, a graduate of the
University of South Alabama.

She's going into this
therapeutic sports recreation.

Mm-hmm.

So she could continue this
work from a preteen years.

I need question,

Rupert Isaacson: Equine Assisted
World podcast, actually.

I think yeah.

Yeah.

She's,

Jason Barrett: she's
just a beautiful person.

But to see her out there my wife and
my daughter feeling that, and then

having the background of working with
her and seeing the need in the world

from people and being willing to share
that, it's a different, it's just

we've got a different thing going.

You know, there's, there's
something, it's not just performance.

There's a whole lot of heart behind it
that's been built for decades, you know?

Well, naturally,

Rupert Isaacson: because,

Jason Barrett: I mean,

Rupert Isaacson: you've
got, it's really neat.

You've got, you know, you talked
about this one autistic boy,

getting him to be standing up on the
running horse and pulling stunts.

I remember seeing at your show, which
you were actually still running as

a backyard fundraiser at that point.

Tim, the the, the, the African
American young man who had

the traumatic brain injury.

And I, I watched you guys able to get him
up in a Viking costume able to handle and

act with the staff and the, and the spear.

Jason Barrett: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

He's an

Jason Barrett: incredible
character, incredible guy.

We we love him and, and hopefully
with the soundtrack of a rap

Rupert Isaacson: song that he had written,

Jason Barrett: he

Rupert Isaacson: had written Right.

You know, people just don't
do this kind of thing.

You talk about heart.

Yeah, absolutely.

Alright, so just backtrack a little bit.

So you said COVID hit the it
for a while, the therapeutic.

Program collapsed.

You've since rebuilt it.

Clearly.

Jason Barrett: We never,
it never collapsed.

Okay.

It just shrunk to much smaller measures.

We have.

I mean, we've got kids that have been with
us since they were in preschool, you know?

Oh yeah.

One of our girls is a professor
now at the University of Florida.

Wow.

Know who started in our, in our program.

So we, we don't wanna lose anybody.

So a few of those people
that, so here's question,

Rupert Isaacson: but, but you
said you, you had to rethink.

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

And you say you, you went to a circus.

Mm-hmm.

That sounds like there were a bunch of
small steps that you've sort of left

out because it's hard thing to take.

One's act out there.

You didn't have a sort of existing track
record of, I know, I know that Sise had

been riding in that equestrian show some
years before and so on and so on, but it's

another thing to then go to a professional
outfit and say, we need a job.

We're amazing.

Give us a job.

How, how did you do that?

Jason Barrett: Well, the, the connection
with the family made that possible, and he

knew the quality of what we could produce.

And so that was an, that was an easy one.

We got lucky on the next one, the
West Virginia Renaissance Festival.

We had a friend that suggested us to 'em.

They were a small fair and they wanted
something new, so we went up and did it.

And they had no idea
what they were getting.

They were very well pleased.

So, so yeah, so that, that was pretty
much, it happened just that quickly.

Honestly, there was not a lot.

We were in a, we were in a very
tough situation at the time.

The property that we were well, one, we
were bottoming out in every direction.

We had spent every dime of our
savings just to keep things going.

So it was, it was serious conversations
about, Hey, did we get rid of some horses?

We try this again later.

That kind of thing.

Equestrian chaos saved Ali's
school, equestrian arts.

We would have closed, we did not have to.

But once EC got on the
road, we hit that next job.

Every job we've done,
somebody saw us and wants us.

It's just that unique and that
different, so that's, that's how fast.

What's your show

Rupert Isaacson: circuit currently?

Jason Barrett: Right now we do Florida
to Oregon, Washington, Ohio, Texas.

I mean, it's a big loop.

I think we did 2,800 miles out to
Oregon, Washington, 2,400 miles back

to Ohio, another thousand back here.

You know, a thousand down to Florida.

We're heading to Texas in a week and
a half for three weekends out there.

Very soon.

That'll be another 900 miles or so.

So we are cooking.

The goal is to right now, it's just, it's
just been amazing to be able to breathe.

Yeah, we've always, we've had some, we've
had some help along the way for sure.

Some, some great help, but no.

Change your life.

Okay, you can do this now, help.

You know, we've got the funding and
the budgeting to have employees.

We gotta, you know, that's never happened.

So we've always been earning it.

So then we turned around and to see
equestrian chaos all of a sudden earn it.

And again, we're starting
in a field we don't know.

You know, we've, there's all that.

I mean, people have been performing
for 20 years to the point where we are

jumping in at, you know, at that level.

So we don't know what the rates are.

We don't know, you know, so we've
so we've done very well in the last

three years finding out our value
and our worth and pushing and, and

so in all, and in the long run.

The funding from Equestrian Chaos.

We take donations from every show
that we do that goes directly to the

school, as well as our contract prices.

Everything funnels right back
into the nonprofit organization to

try and keep it alive and going.

And we are making progress.

Finally, we're finally able to
do some work on the new property.

We have a beautiful 20 acre property
that we'll be able to develop now to put

the things we need in place to, to do
the kind of work we were doing before.

But yeah, we still keep it going.

We have about 14 special needs
students that come to our program.

When we're home, we want
to cut our road time down.

Right now we're on the road better
than eight months, which is too long.

We wanna do six and six and be able
to keep it going and then eventually

have the staff we need to run both for
the, at the same time so we can keep

the word going out, keep expanding
the awareness, showing it off in a

big way, and then bringing it home and
growing it deeper and bigger and better.

So it's exciting, it's fun.

It

Rupert Isaacson: is exciting.

So people listening and watching, I'm
talking to you, listeners and watchers.

You can donate to equestrian chaos.

You can help them with their
nonprofit special needs work

because what I've seen is

you set people free.

The mind blowing

with that, you know, that's
not a flippant use of the word

I, radical life change that I've seen you
guys bring into the lives of people who

had been written off, liked him after his.

Life shattering traumatic brain injury
where he was, I know he was being

scouted, you know, as a pro football
player or not from a wealthy family,

African American southern boy made
good through football, getting scouted

on that track and then wham and, and

in a wheelchair for life and barely able
to talk and unable to be independent.

And rocky, the impossible,
nonverbal, autistic boy that you

got being a star in the show.

And numerous, numerous
others that I've seen.

There just aren't many people out there

giving opportunities like this where
it's not just like, you know, be the

best you can be and all those cliches.

It's, it's doing stuff that if you were
able-bodied and neurotypical, you might

very, very well never be able to do.

That's a, that's a big
bragging point for them.

Like that.

It's a massive bragging point.

And you should brag
that, be Jesus out of it.

Because, you know, I, I, I see
some good programs out there.

I've never seen anything like you guys.

Jason Barrett: Wow.

Rupert Isaacson: And you, not me,
you know, in Texas they say I shack,

I shacked twice and fell down in it.

Jason Barrett: That's,

that's

very Texas.

Yeah.

Well, it, we feel that way.

We know, we've come to know that
through it, we know the value of it.

We are excited to watch it grow.

Okay.

I mean, we're looking
generationally, generationally now.

You know, my daughter's growing
up, she's 18, Brooke is on her way.

You know, there is no reason we can't
drive this thing to influence thousands

more lives in the same way that Tim felt
like a superstar on top of that horse.

He's finally, he's on the stage,
he's in the limelight again.

Yeah.

Even if it's just for a moment,
anyone who's ever been there knows

that's a moment you hold onto.

It's one of the ones you talk
about at the end of your days.

You know?

So we want those moments for as
many people as we can get 'em.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Validation, self-belief.

You, so the obvious question now
is, you know, where's it going?

This is one of the hottest
shows, equestrian shows that's,

that's out there in the world.

Where's it?

What are you gonna do with it?

What's next?

Jason Barrett: We are
continuing to, to book shows.

We are working to build enough shows
in a shorter period where we can spend

more time at home growing the program.

While we are on the road though, we
have programs where we do trainings.

We do we can do trainings for clinics.

If you're out there and you're
therapeutic horseback riding program

may be dragging a little bit or it's not
working the way you want, or you just

wanna try something spicy new, something
different find us, keep in touch with us.

Once we settle into a place, a lot of
the gigs that we do performing keep us in

an area for a month or two or or longer.

So that gives us opportunities.

And most of the time we
perform are on the weekends.

So our hope is to get out there and
to find other organizations that

need this kind of training and help.

We can bring programming in.

For you that's established that we've
done show you ways to change things up, to

give new people an opportunity, maybe make
you feel comfortable doing things that

you weren't before, helping train horses.

So we're looking to do a lot of that
work on the road and even in the circuit,

I mean, we're traveling with other
performers and vendors who travel the

same circuits and they have special
needs population in those circuits.

So we have kids at each of the
fairs that we work with in the time,

so they're getting an opportunity
for something that they don't have

because of their transient lifestyle.

And horses are kind of a in one place
thing, you know, for most people.

So, it's an opportunity
for them to taste it.

Then we, they, we can bring
'em up through the ranks.

They can help with, we
can introduce other.

People to helping people.

We, we bring the program to the
stage, introduce that community.

There's more people now that
see how well this works, this

communication between horse and humans.

So that's where we're at.

We're out there just, just
pushing everything we do.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, I'm hoping that
you guys will go international and I,

I was talking to your wife about this.

So, you know, we spoke a couple of
years ago about getting equestrian chaos

to do a show of the horse boy story.

Which I still would like instantly.

Last year there's a special needs
theater in London called Chicken Shed.

'cause it actually started
in a chicken shed Nice.

And has now become this huge, huge thing.

And they now also are affiliated
with a university there where they

have the first degree program for.

Performing arts for the special needs.

And I feel that's a way, that's a
direction you guys would, could also

logically go because you, you could
really show, train people, I think, how

to work in the circus arts, not just with
horses, you know, in, in, in so many ways.

Also with special needs.

And I want them to do the show
of the horse boy because as well,

because their cast is about half
autistic and wow, I really wanna

see what they do with that story.

But what they lack is.

Understanding of the horse and
understanding of how to you would

bring that experience that would
look a little bit like equestrian

chaos into like a London theater.

And I was chatting with, with
Ali about this, and she said, oh,

well, you know, she immediately
goes, oh, well here's the solution.

Yeah.

And she goes, well, you know, you,
you put them on vaulting barrels,

which you then have, you know, to look
like horses, and you can move those.

And then those are, you know,
your Mongolian riders or your

spirits or your, you know, and, you
know, I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You guys need to be consultants on this.

Okay.

That's clear.

That's the,

Jason Barrett: yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: so I'm hoping
lightning, lightning thoughts

on that, you guys to London?

Jason Barrett: Yeah, that sounds great.

Yeah, we'd, we'd love to.

We we've had a couple stabs.

We had somebody from Ride on
Festival interest one time we had

something out of Brazil interest.

So there's, there's, there's something
gonna hit out there, but we'd love to

do anything with you Ru It'd be great.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Yeah.

It's so, you know, viewers.

Listeners, equestrian chaos.com.

They're a nonprofit.

There is a donate button, I believe.

Donate to them because
this is, this is work.

You know, for example, if you've got
a birthday coming up or something, get

your friends to donate to them as a
birthday gift to you, because I frankly

have not seen in all the 20 years that
I've been doing this work, I haven't

seen anything as badass as equestrian
chaos, including my own work, by the

way, I thought that was pretty badass

Jason Barrett: until Yes, sir.

Indeed you are.

Indeed you are.

But like-minded birds man.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

This idea of of, of expanding what is
possible so far outside, people talk about

outside the box and that kind of cliche.

It is like you created your own
boxes, threw them away, created new

ones, threw those ones away, and they
created a parallel universe, in fact.

Jason Barrett: Yeah, yeah.

You know,

Rupert Isaacson: stood on the opposite

Jason Barrett: of a box, A quantum
box stood outside running around it.

It's, have you guys thought

Rupert Isaacson: about
doing life coaching as well?

Because I, I, I feel that the way you've
also done it sort of on a wish and

a prayer financially, where you, you
never had the silver spoon, you never

had the big organization backing you.

You never had any of that.

And yet you did this show that
was just so incredibly polished

on little resources and so on.

I, I, I feel that people could
consult with you guys about

how to get their lives unstuck.

Jason Barrett: It's, I love people.

I, I love them.

We're so deep and so different
and and yet so the same.

And it seems to be, it just kind of
follows in the course of what we're doing.

We've had a lot of influence on, on
people's lives from, from the experiences

they've had with our family Yeah.

That are tangible and leave a mark.

So, so yeah, I, I don't know where that
goes, but we're always happy to help.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Now as we sort of draw to, to a close
here, you started your whole life

with this within a spiritual context.

Although you, yourself.

W by, if I get this right, we're
not so personally religious.

I mean, to some degree, but it was
more that, that was the structure that,

of that church that was around you
at the time that created that camp.

But of course, later the Jehovah's
Witnesses got their teeth into

your jugular, but then you managed
to extract yourself and but came

away with some great life skills.

Where are you at now spiritually?

What's your spirituality and,
and what tips have you got for

people who are feeling stuck,
who are feeling that they can't?

Jason Barrett: You can,
you absolutely can.

However we can beat that thought into you.

You can, you're not stuck.

There is opportunity and if you
look around in the world, you

will see people with far less
opportunity than you have making it.

You're, they're out there.

You can absolutely do it.

You have to be patient, kind to yourself.

You gotta forgive yourself and
your ignorances, you, you, you

have to, you have to have a, a
purpose, find a purpose without it.

You'll be forever lost.

You've gotta find some kind of purpose.

And that can be any number of
things, but you'll know it.

Find a purpose and ask people
who have found a purpose.

Talk to folks like yourself and
me who have found a talk to folks

Rupert Isaacson: who found a purpose.

Yeah.

Jason Barrett: Yeah.

Talk to folks who found a purpose,
because you may not know how to get there.

You may not even know what
strikes you until you've had a

conversation with somebody who
knows the right questions to ask.

You know, you can't see yourself
as well as you think you do.

So it's always good to
talk to somebody, you know?

Rupert Isaacson: I think, you know, and
it's interesting 'cause you are the mc

and your job is to communicate the show.

And I've watched you do it.

I've also watched you structure it.

I've watched you create the
music for, I've watched you

create the backdrops for it.

I've watched you create the aesthetic.

I've watched you run the
thing, develop the thing.

You are a very good organizer.

But yeah.

Back to the spirituality,
what's your relationship with

the big GOD at this point?

Jason Barrett: I'm, I'm grateful
for this incredible life I have.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, I think if you live in
gratitude, you're, you're already

on your way to spirituality.

I think that gratitude gives
you the opportunity to see.

The beauty in each person,
regardless of their shortcomings.

I take the principles that I learned
from the life of Jesus, the idea of

total peace and, and zen whatever.

All those religions have thoughts
that have spawned from men or from

some higher power with ideas that are,
that are great and some that aren't.

You have to, you have to source it out.

You have to try it.

But there's nothing will ever go wrong
with finding a purpose, lending a

helping hand sharing your heart with
someone or making the opportunity

for someone to feel comfortable
enough to share their heart with you.

If you do those things, it's going to
lead to something, something better.

Even if it's uncomfortable, even if
it stings, it hurts so spiritually.

I'm just looking forward to the future.

I don't know what the big guy
has in store, but I'm grateful

for what I have so far.

If he is had a part in that,
I'm, I'm really thankful.

I'm looking forward to
being exciting ride.

Rupert Isaacson: It seems that what
you're saying is, a formula of cultivate

gratitude and seek active mentorship,
talk to people who have a life purpose.

It seems that you've almost coming
up with that as an equation.

Jason Barrett: Mm-hmm.

That's, that's, that's the, that's
the, if there's a third part,

it's don't quit ruminating the,
the negative things in your life

or the bad problems in your head.

That would be the third part.

You've gotta shut that shit down somehow.

And how did you shut that shit down?

Trying over and over again, you know?

Yeah.

You know, you, you, you
made the wrong decision.

Something, something you did bitch
you in your ass and your wife told

you you shouldn't have done that.

You know, you're going to have
to let it go at some point.

You can't be upset about it forever.

You, you gotta roll past it.

You, you know, same thing if anything
can happen in your life, but there

is tomorrow, there is today, there
are the people standing around you

that are attached to you and by you
and you've got to let, I hear so

many times people just say the same
thing over and over and it's the bad

thing that they have in their life.

Mm-hmm.

You've gotta cut that cycle.

So yeah, those three things.

Find a purpose, talk to
someone with a purpose.

Don't regurgitate your
troubles over and over again.

Tell your confidant and then let it be.

And then

Rupert Isaacson: I feel that, yeah, that
gratitude certainly helps me with that.

Mm-hmm.

You know, you, you're probably
familiar with this phrase from the

Bible 'cause you spent so much time.

In the Bible.

But from New Testament one, you
know, the idea of turning the

other cheek if someone slaps you.

Yeah.

Right.

And that's always been
interpreted, you know, I, I always

had a problem with that one.

It's like, no man.

Mm-hmm.

Punch 'em in the face.

Yeah.

No way.

Yeah.

And it's bat kick him in the nut.

And then I was listening to the
work of, I dunno if you've ever

come across Neville Godard.

He was a really interesting sort
of early law of attraction dude who

was active in the sort of, in the
forties and fifties and sixties.

If you go on YouTube, you
can find recordings by him.

And what's really interesting
about him is he interprets the

whole thing through a New Testament
lens, but not in any dogmatic way.

In fact, what he's saying is the
entire Bible is just an allegory for.

Effectively the law of attraction.

And he, he explains turning the other
cheek as when you are looking in a

direction that slaps you in the face,
turn your face and look in a direction

of where you actually want to go.

And because where your attention
is is where you're gonna go.

You're gonna move towards
the thing you're looking at.

You know, that's a good way

Jason Barrett: of looking at it.

Rupert Isaacson: Energy goes
where attention flows, where

attention goes or whatever.

So you literally must, it's telling you,
no, not here, like touching the hot stove.

Jason Barrett: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: Turn your gaze.

Really?

It would be better if they said gaze.

Jason Barrett: Yeah.

Yeah.

I could take that.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Jason Barrett: Yeah, that works.

That works well.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

Turn the other cheek.

Look the other way.

Go where you wanted.

And that's a huge thing that we've
learned, you know, the way you want.

If you're forcing it, if you're forcing
it to happen, you have to recognize

whether you are or you're not.

You have to have the
insight to be able to tell.

But man, if you're forcing something,
you're probably not in the right place.

Because when it fits you,
you know when it comes Right.

And somebody's after
you and they want you.

Yes.

That, that this, that's where you go.

Make sure you move when
that happens, you know?

But,

Rupert Isaacson: well,
it's been a pleasure.

I'm gonna nag my listeners to donate.

Jason Barrett: I appreciate that.

We could certainly make good use of it.

Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

And more than that, I really,
really strongly urge anyone who's

listening or watching this go and
check out an equestrian chaos show.

Absolutely.

You might think, oh yeah,
I've seen circus acts.

You haven't seen one like this.

We'll be in

Jason Barrett: Glad Water Texas here.

The next three weekends starting
November 5th or December 5th, we'll

have three weekends of shows out
there at the, is that Tyler Viking

Festival?

Tyler?

It's near Tyler.

Near Tyler.

Okay.

It's in a town called Glad Water.

It's, it's the Yue Viking Festival.

We've got three weekends
of shows out there.

We're gonna kill it out there.

They've been incredible to us.

That's one of the ones
where you like, wow.

They built their stage for us.

They call it the equestrian Arena.

I mean, the Chaos Arena.

They put some beautiful
stalls up for our horses.

I mean, they set up our, our area
for our camp and our rigs, and it

just, and that's running through

Rupert Isaacson: December, 2025

Jason Barrett: through December?

Yep.

December, 2025.

That'll be our last
performances this year.

And then we'll kick off.

We'll have some announcements about next
year's performances coming up real soon,

but we'll be all over the country again.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

I'll get on my Texas people.

Yeah.

Yeah.

To go up.

Sounds good.

All right.

Jason Barrett: Yeah, man.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, listen, my
friend, it's been a real pleasure.

I can't wait to reconnect again.

In person soon.

Jason Barrett: Absolutely.

I was thinking the same thing.

It'll be good to hang.

Rupert Isaacson: Like I say, you, you
and Sise are massive heroes of mine.

I'm always, I'm in awe.

Goes both ways brother.

Project going,

Jason Barrett: goes both ways.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

All right.

Well, until the next time.

Equestrian chaos.com.

That's right.

You can find them there.

If you're listening now in December
2nd, 2025, you're in the South.

Head on over to Glade Water.

Is It?

Jason Barrett: Glad Water,
Texas Biking Festival,

Rupert Isaacson: And near Tyler.

Get your mind blown.

Jason Barrett: Yeah, come on.

We'll do it.

Appreciate you Rupert, man.

It was awesome.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Till the next time.

Jason Barrett: Alright, later.

Bye.

Bye.

Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed
today's conversation as much as I did.

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