Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Live Free
Ride Free, where we talk to people who

have lived self-actualized lives on
their own terms, and find out how they

got there, what they do, how we can
get there, what we can learn from them.

How to live our best lives, find
our own definition of success,

and most importantly, find joy.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.

New York Times bestselling
author of the Horse Boy.

Founder of New Trails Learning
Systems and long ride home.com.

You can find details of all our programs
and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.

Hey, I'm back with Craig Foster.

Those of you who listened to the
previous podcast with him know that

we went fairly deep into the idea
of how human beings are trackers.

And how important this kind of is for
our well being and our happiness in the

fact that it connects us with the world
and the universe, our habitat as an

organism, we are organisms around us,
but those of you who haven't listened

to that, please go and listen to it,
those of you who know Craig Foster's

work, Then he needs no introduction.

But those of you who don't, your
homework immediately is to go and

watch the film My Octopus Teacher.

And if you can also watch a film called
the great dance and his book amphibious

soul But now I want to dive in because
I want to pick the conversation up

from where we left it before welcome
back craig Thank you for coming on.

Can you Tell us what you've been thinking
of since the last time around this

idea Of tracking and the human soul.

Craig Foster: Thanks, Rupert.

Good to be chatting to you again.

I guess there's such
a deep desire in me to

feel that wildness and I have
been traveling a lot this year.

Unusually.

So, so, it, it's When I'm not
practicing that tracking every

day, I can feel the difference.

I can feel the, you know, my mind
wanting to hold onto those connections.

And the only way of doing that is
by being in the wild and doing that.

So I've, I've missed that.

That old way, I've missed those, that
reciprocity with the wild, I've missed

practicing that oldest language on earth.

I mean, I do it in the cities, I do
it inside, I'm always looking for

little marks that people have left, or
little scuff marks, or dust particles.

I'm looking for Sign, I'm looking for
patterns everywhere because it satisfies

my psyche, but I've kind of thought, well,
this year I really want to get back into

some serious communication with these
wild creatures and it's an amazing way

of doing it because, I mean, I had a on
Friday, I had this, you know, full day

in the wild with my tracking friends and
we were just picking up the subtlest of

things, but the amount of information
that I got, you know, took me three or

four days just to process and figure out
and I'm going to give you an example,

I found this piece of an ant's nest.

I found a tiny bit of a baboon scat and
a couple of very faded baboon prints.

And from that came this This incredible,
interesting, possible story of these

baboons raiding this cocktail ant's nest.

And the, they have these amazing
commensals these little larvae of

animals that they protect in the nest.

And then they feed.

nectar to the ants.

And I think that maybe the baboons
were after these, these larvae.

And that they opened the nest.

But of course, through the baboons,
through this, these little signs, I

learned all about these cocktail ants
and their incredible lives and how they

have these battles against other ant
colonies and how they protect their

Species that they harbor in the nest
and then allied to that was how these

lizards get attracted to the Baboon
feces because it's attracts flies and

they're catching the flies around it
And it's just the story just gets bigger

and bigger and more complex Suddenly
in the world of baboons in the world of

ants and you part of this wild system
And, but you wouldn't even imagine that

if you weren't tracking, if you weren't
open to these little tiny signs that 99.

9 percent of people are passing.

So there's, there are these
incredible stories and these

teachings just right there.

So I want to, my main thought is now
is to get back to that because I've

never felt better When I'm tracking
as often as possible and it's probably

Rupert Isaacson: listening to you
just recount that first question is

what's a cocktail and so I'm going
to ask you to tell us what a cocktail

and is, but I felt, as you were
describing that, an intrinsic sense

of satisfaction simply hearing the
report of your tracking discovery.

And it occurs to me more and more as
I age that quality of life, quality

of mental health seems to be quite
dependent on us behaving as our species

wants us to, which is as trackers.

And I, I, I make the distinction
between tracking and hunting there.

Because I think when we use the
word hunting, people mistakenly

assume one's always talking
about trying to kill something.

Whereas tracking can involve hunting,
but tracking is reading, as you, No,

the ecosystem in a much broader way,
and as you say, our interaction with it.

And you also said something at the
very beginning there, that tracking

is the oldest language in the world.

So, can you, first tell us what a
cocktail ant is, because I'm curious,

and then be, elaborate on this oldest
language in the world thing, please.

Craig Foster: So the, the cocktail
ant, which I've only kind of, you

know, recently understood through
thanks to the baboons, are these

fascinating ants that build, that chew
plant material and they build these

amazing nests where their, their saliva
and the material glue together in

these incredible nests inside bushes.

And they're called cocktail ants because
the back of the ant, when they get

aggressive, turns upwards like that.

So the little tail is cocked, and
they, you know, they, they, they

protect and feed these other about
five different forms of lava.

And then they on harvest nectar
from the lava and the lava

get the amazing protection.

Lava of

Rupert Isaacson: other species, not lava.

Of totally, totally different species.

So it's like they're farming.

The lava of other insects.

Craig Foster: Yes, yes.

But they kind of, that lava, those
lava know that they're protected there.

The Ansel protect them and in
exchange they hand out the nectar.

Yeah.

And yeah.

So, in terms of the
oldest language, you know,

it is a whole language.

So you, you're looking for patterns,
you're looking for sign, you're looking

for spu, you're looking for hundreds of
these little patterns that then link up.

and make sense and allow you to
survive if you were living fully wild.

But from, I don't hunt in any way, but
it allows me to psychologically survive

because I need to understand and know and
feel I belong in the ecosystem I'm in.

And I mean, just to give you an
idea, that's just, I mean, there

are like, 10 stories like that from
Friday but they're very subtle.

You just get a flash of something
and then this, because you know the

ecosystem, then you're putting together
all these possibilities that then suddenly

click into place and you, ah, the puff
adder's hunting right next to the sea.

in the kelp, the dried kelp, because
the little rodents live in there

and eat the amphipods, and then
you just feel this whole language.

Nature's speaking to you, and you're
speaking back, and there's an incredible

dialogue that you're having with
the wild, and you can feel that old

language moving your body, moving
your mind, and you just feel alive.

Invigorated and in touch with
that old way, that design

that you're talking about.

And that makes you feel that
you're doing something worthwhile.

Rupert Isaacson: I'm going to just
describe for listeners a little bit

what I know of your life in Cape Town.

So although although Craig lives near,
close to a large city those of you

who know Cape Town know that it's.

Bordered by large protected areas
of that are very, very wild.

A large proportion of which
is coastline and okay.

Craig is lucky enough to live on that
coastline and to go down to the beach

and into the sea every day and track.

And he's also part of protecting that
ecosystem through his organization,

Sea Change which is protecting
the kelp forest, which is a

vitally important ecosystem there.

You mentioned basically that tracking
for you is psychological survival.

I think most people obviously don't
live your life and they don't live

my life either with the horses.

And I think most people are
suffering, including those of us who

live with the horses and those of
us who, like you, can go down and

track at least some of the time.

Why is this oldest language
in the world tracking?

integral to psychological survival?

Craig Foster: Yeah, I think there
are many ways of answering that.

And ironically, the closer you get
to nature, the closer you get to

animals, and the more you understand
the massive environmental threats.

potentially more your mental health
could be affected negatively.

So that's an interesting thing to talk
about, how to get close to the wild,

fall in love with biodiversity and our,
our big mother, and then realize, Oh

my goodness, she's, you know, we, we
are killing her at a terrifying rate.

How do you, how do you deal
with that and not lose hope?

That's another interesting
thing to look at.

But no, sorry, I've just forgotten
the, the, yeah, why, why is this

Rupert Isaacson: why, so we're
talking about you, you, you, you,

you had this phrase, psychological
survival, and I think this is,

we've, we've hit the knob here.

In fact, that's why I'm going
to title this podcast tracking a

psychological survival, mental health.

It's a pandemic.

It probably always has been,
but I think we're just putting

our attention on it now.

But as you say, things have become very
acute because we, we feel many of us

that we're in a state of slight despair
with the way we're treating the planet.

As you say, No sooner does one
fall in love with nature than one

begins to see that become, you know,

alarmed understatement by
the damage we're doing to it.

But you said tracking as
psychological survival.

And I just want you to elaborate on
that because I think that's useful for

people when they're If we're going to
then start talking about well, what

strategies or mechanisms could we use,
particularly if we're not going down to

the beach in Cape Town every day, or not
going out to the horses or living on a

farm every day, and we're just living
the normal suburban or urban life.

So, can you just, yeah, elaborate around
why it is psychological survival tracking,

and then we can go into some solutions.

Craig Foster: I think, I mean, one of
the reasons would be that There's this

tremendous sense of not belonging.

We get this, it's, a lot of people feel
they're kind of alone, they don't belong.

And what happens when you start tracking
and observing, details of animals.

It forces you to really start to
understand the world that you're in and to

know these little incredible secret lives
and all these thousands of signs that

are around you that are speaking to you
and have been, you know, spoken to people

at a very deep level for a long time.

So while people are absolutely
fluent in this language, they

don't even have to think.

So What that eventually does, it forces
you to feel part of the wild, integrated

into it, woven into it, so you feel
part of nature, part of this world,

you totally belong, you're another one
of these wild animals that are moving

on the landscape or in the water.

And if you then learn enough from
the animals and move accordingly,

they allow you into their space.

occasionally even come and physically
interact with you on their terms.

And then that makes you feel
integrated into the wild.

And that is a feeling that, You know,
every child would have had since

the beginning of time up till, you
know, the beginning of the industrial

revolution or whenever it started
to all change, even the agricultural

revolution changed us fundamentally.

So, you, you just feel part of this
incredible kinship of all these

species and that's very affirming.

Is tracking the cure for loneliness?

I think you can't you know, just
expect to be a kind of lone ranger,

solitary person, and then get
all your sustenance from nature.

You will get a lot from her,
but we are social beings.

So the ideal thing, and I found the
most Powerful and invigorating is to

have a close group of friends, which
I do have, and we go out tracking

together and then, you know, the,
the five minds is so powerful because

you're getting all these inputs and
you're thinking, ah, okay, that's it.

This is what's happening here.

And the, the feeling of moving
in that group on that landscape.

and being taught by these wild creatures.

It's unbelievable how it bonds you.

So you, you, you have kinds of
friendships that are for me,

impossible to get in other ways.

It's, it's so ancient and old and
primal that it just completely like

connects your minds in that wild.

And it's, what's interesting is
some of the young people who've,

you know, come with us, they 20,
30 years younger than me, I would.

battle to be friends with them,
but because of this shared awe and

wonder of tracking it in the wild,
you actually have so much in common.

So it's, it's cross generational.

And then of course, it's a lovely
feeling to be passing that on to a

younger person and their mind is often
working really well, better than mine.

So they learn very fast and they can add
a lot to the, you know, the thinking part.

Rupert Isaacson: So tracking is the cure
for loneliness if we behave as our still

living ancestors, because there's lots
of hunter gatherers still on the planet.

If we behave as they do, i.

e.

going out into nature to track
in cooperative groups, right?

Because that's the nature of our species.

Craig Foster: It doesn't
get more connected in a way.

And yeah, and it does, there's
something about those relationships

that are very, very powerful.

Rupert Isaacson: When you, when you
described what was going on with the

baboons and the cocktail ants, and then
the lizards, and then being attracted to

the insects on the baboon feces, and that

despite the fact that there was.

Faeces involved, or perhaps because
of it, because obviously I'm a toilet

humor guy, but there was obviously
something very poetic about that.

Is poetry,

is true poetry, tracking the
environment in which we live?

And interacting with it in this way.

Is that why it's so deeply
satisfying because it's

effectively living inside poetry?

Is that the nature of poetry?

Craig Foster: When you
say that, I think of

like the elegance of the natural
system itself feels deeply poetic.

You know, when we, when we, When we
just what pops into my mind, when we

started to decimate the great whale
populations, you know, you would think

that the krill that they feed on would,
you know, expand in numbers dramatically,

but their numbers drop dramatically.

And it's quite funny because they rely
on the whale poop and the whale poop

makes all the phytoplankton bloom.

And that's what feeds the krill.

So, I mean, there's this,
this, this extraordinary.

Poetry in that, that system that is, I
mean, it's mind blowing that you could

have so much biodiversity, so many
animals and plants kind of, and there's

a lot of predation yet there's this
unbelievable life that springs from that.

It's, it, you know, it's
pure poetry in many ways.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So if the soul of poetry Is
rooted in our interaction with the

natural world, which it has to be
right because we're an organism.

What else can we interact with?

Even when we're interacting with each
other, even when we're intellectualizing

things, we're still operating
within the frame of an organism.

Just, we're limiting the
number of organisms, i.

e.

human to human.

But there it is, it's still
there, that natural thing.

This brings up the question which, before
we hit record, You were posing, which I

think would be very good for listeners
to think on too, which is what happens

to the mind when we become literate?

So, to frame that question, 300,

000 years, more or less, of species,
as far as we know, sapiens sapiens,

and certainly about 290 something,
four years of it not literate.

And then about 6, 000 years ago, we seem
to have the first cuneiform scripts.

The archaeological thing is
being rewritten all the time.

Maybe, who knows, maybe we've been
literate in previous iterations

before, but not for as long
as We've not been literate.

And we use that word
illiteracy as a pejorative.

We definitely, if, oh,
illiterate, that's a bad thing.

But you made the point that the master
trackers, and listeners, what we mean

by master trackers is if you go into
places like the Kalahari in southern

Africa, where there are Sun Bushman
Hunters trackers, who can read the

land in a way that makes Craig's
previous description sound illiterate.

incredibly simplistic, because they're
just on a meta level with this.

That the vast majority
of them are not literate.

And that the trackers that are
within their communities that are

literate don't seem to be able
to reach that same deep level.

So what happens to the mind
when we become literate?

And then, The question that you
posed, Craig, was does literacy

compromise deep cognition?

Can you give us your thoughts on that?

Craig Foster: So I'm certainly
no expert on this, but it is

something that's fascinating me.

Very young children seem to
be just incredibly bright.

They can learn a language
without even trying.

As soon as they start this whole
education system I think it's quite

well known that their brains get
sort of fairly heavily compromised

and the cognition drops radically.

And it is interesting that quite a large
percentage of master trackers, and it's,

it's, it's, it's, it's an incredible
thing to witness don't seem to have

the literacy and the people in those
communities who are literate cannot do

this incredible master tracking techniques
and ideas and, and, but, you know,

Admittedly, it takes 20 years to learn.

So,

and as you say, you know, for
95 percent of our time on this

planet, we have not been literate.

So suddenly introducing this
enormous amount of energy that's

required for our reading and writing.

What does that do?

to our deeper thinking?

What does it do to radical
pattern recognition, etc?

I don't know the answers, but
I'd be very interested to try

and find out more about that.

And some indigenous writing that I've
recently read, an amazing book called

Sand Talk, hints at a similar thing that

Intrinsically, we know so much,
and no one's saying that people

shouldn't learn to read and write.

It's absolutely critical for
survival in our culture today.

But it is very interesting to think
about what is actually doing to

this incredible, wild human being.

brain that has been forged in this
crucible of nature for so long.

What is it doing?

All these really strange inputs.

I mean, we know what
the technology is doing.

It's messing us up properly.

But what is all the other
stuff doing as well?

And it's certainly, as I go,
Deeper into these spaces.

I get a very strong sense that
we have to be very, very careful,

especially in the education system.

How we bring all this so called
knowledge to young people.

Rupert Isaacson: I think we need to
bring some neuroscientists into this

conversation because as you were talking,
I just grabbed my phone and I started

I just typed the question into Google,
you know, does education compromise.

And of course everything pops up saying,
no education, you know, is vital for

cognition, you know, across the entire
adult range individuals with more

education show higher levels of cognitive
function than individuals with less.

Education and this, you know, coming
from, of course, the government website

in the UK, but I think we need to define
here what we mean by cognition, because

I think this is a really interesting
point, as you say, we can't get by in our

culture now without interaction with the
cash economy, without literacy digital

literacy, we have to have it, even the son
that I know who I still interact with a

lot in the Kalahari, they, they use cell
phones, they, you know, I mean, they're,

they, they have to, or they get overrun by
people that have that kind of technology.

So, when you say cognition, given that
Any sort of educational psychologist

probably would say no, you've got
to have literacy for cognition.

Why are you posing something that's
a little, what do you mean by

cognition that might be different
to what they mean by cognition?

Craig Foster: No, as you say, how they're
measuring that, you know, the level of

thinking and understanding it
takes to be able to look at.

You know, very, very faint marks
in the earth and put together this

unbelievably complex story and then
follow animals that are unseen is

one of the hardest things it takes.

I mean, it's.

a thousand times easier to fly a jumbo jet
or be an astronaut or anything like that.

Anybody can eventually learn to do that.

This is not something that's,
this is something that's very,

very difficult and the variables
are massive and it's so subtle.

So it's one of the most remarkable
things I've ever seen in my whole life.

This ability to figure out these
incredibly complex secrets of nature.

It is absolutely remarkable.

I mean, you have witnessed it.

It's, it's mind blowing.

And I've tried, I mean, I've tried for,
you know, decades and I can get by now.

I can do some fairly good tracking.

I've taught myself to track underwater,
but I'm nowhere near as good after

15 years of doing it every day and my
entire childhood doing it, I'm nowhere

near as good as a master tracker.

It's, it's something that is.

Requires the brain to be working
at a extremely high level.

So whatever that is, or whatever
the terms are, I, I'm, as I said,

I'm absolutely no expert on any of
this neuroscience or how it works,

but I have a, a, a strong hunch that

the Our brains are being rewired
when we learn to read and write.

And when we learn to track other neural
pathways are opening up and you can,

I mean, after this now intensive 15
years of tracking I've done now, I

noticed my My thinking is way better and
especially in things like storytelling

And writing funnily enough but in the
story structure side of things, so, and

I've noticed people like my friend John
Young have taken young people out who say

struggling in school with math or science.

And after three months of tracking,
without doing any extra math or science,

those kids are suddenly fine with that.

Who is John Young?

Tell us about John Young.

John Young is an incredible tracker,
storyteller you know, written

many books on bird language.

Where's he from?

He is from he's from America.

He now lives in California, but
he was from the Pine Barrens.

I can't remember exactly where that
is, but on the East coast, New Jersey.

That's right.

So, and he spent his whole life
tracking from nine years old.

Okay.

In very interesting childhood.

And so there are these hints
everywhere that there is something,

there's something extraordinary here.

You know, so much of, I think the way
forward, the future of our relationship

with the planet our way of telling
the story of who we are and how we

should interact with the planet.

I think so much knowledge is bound up in
the indigenous peoples of this planet.

Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: where else can it be?

Yeah,

Craig Foster: exactly.

So, and this tracking is this fundamental
base for our whole relationship.

with ourselves, with our minds,
with our environment, with

animals, with all the kinship.

It is the, the binding language
that takes us back to the

beginning and pre human as well.

I mean, definitely Homo erectus and
these early hominids we're tracking.

So it's part of our deep Way of
thinking and interacting, right?

And it must

Rupert Isaacson: be true
of every organism, right?

Because every organism
has to track, right?

Every organism either predates or
is prey has to read the environment

around them all the time.

Otherwise, they don't survive

Craig Foster: exactly.

And they've got these
incredible sensory systems.

But we've developed this incredible
system because our senses are

not normally often that good.

But we've got this unbelievable system
of tracking that has kind of, you know,

made us as good as animals in many ways.

And we've used our big brain to do that.

Well,

Rupert Isaacson: some neuroscience comes
into my mind actually with this, which is

that this we're still in 2024 as we make
this podcast just a university study from,

I think University of Shanghai came out
that seems to prove a theory, an older one

from the eighties and early nineties by a
guy called Roger Penrose, that the brain

is a quantum, human is a quantum computer
and that we're capable of storing.

Thought as energy in different
parts, like throughout the brain.

I'm paraphrasing, I'm trying
to make sure I get this right.

And I'll, I'll, I'll get on Google in
a moment and give a link for the study.

And that where, so we store
as potential or this potential

thought on any particular thought.

And it's only when we bring our attention
onto a particular thought that it

becomes, if you like, a photon rather
than a wave no longer in potential,

but then it can go back to potential.

And that we store this
energy in our myelin.

The wrapping that goes around the neural
pathways that connect the fatty tissue

that ends up making them into a secure
insulated cable similar to a plastic cable

around an electrical wire, that's myelin.

Myelination is when we produce that
and we have to take pauses, downtime,

naps, daydreaming for our brain to
have the chance to have this myelin.

And apparently within this myelin,
there are these microtubules.

And it's being posited that within these
microtubules in the myelin, which is

insulating every neural pathway we
have in our brain, that it's here, that

we store this quantum potentiality.

And it seems that they've
kind of proved this now.

And I'm wondering if that's
what you're talking about.

I'm wondering if when you are in
a, if you like a pure state, as

you say, early childhood, before
you learn to read and write.

Your

access to that potentiality
and thought is unhindered.

And then, of course, as we learn
to read and write, we learn to

follow and track, because it is
still tracking, I think, reading

and writing, one particular animal.

It's like saying we're only now going
to track kudu, or horse, or something.

Or maybe we do it in several
languages, so we can do seven species.

But what we then lose the capa and then
we think, oh, everything is in the written

word, and I'm guilty of this because
I'm a writer, and you're a writer too,

so the written word is, is, is to some
degree everything to us, and a lot of my

greatest joy is in reading and writing.

However, listening to you, I can now
begin to see how limiting that can be.

Because If I could read and write in
every language in the world, well,

okay, but I can't, I can really do
it well in one language, middling

in another one and at kindergarten
level and a third and that's it.

Is a master tracker in the
indigenous sense of a human being, i.

e.

an original sense, an authentic sense
of a human being, is a master tracker

effectively somebody who can read and
write in every language in the world

because There you are interacting.

How many species are you interacting with?

If you're a master tracker,
I mean take a guess.

What do you think?

Craig Foster: Over a thousand and sure
so that's what you I think you need.

I think John worked it out I think you
need at least a working knowledge of sort

of 400 species To be able to obviously
depends on the environment but if you you

have to have a sense of all the phylum to
be able to you Put together these stories.

So you, you, you need
to know insect language.

You need to know antelope language.

You need to know bird language.

You need to know you know, bone language.

You know, you find one
little piece of bone.

You have to have a sense
of what animal it's from.

Or you need to know scat language.

You need to know all of these things to be
able to put together the complex pictures.

And the smallest thing can
give you the whole, you know,

a whole lot of information.

So it's a nice way of looking at it.

You need to No, a lot about
a lot of your wild kin.

And the more, you know, the more
interesting the dialogue becomes with

the wild but it's hard to emphasize
how satisfying and powerful it is.

And there's nothing better for
me than a day out doing that.

There's just, it's, it's, it's impossible
to beat with, with anything that I.

And of

Rupert Isaacson: course, you're not
just talking about animal species.

We're talking about plant species,
fungal species, and then the interact,

the interactions from one plant species
to another or through a fungal network

or through an animal to another plant.

Craig Foster: And wind, I mean, we
see wind tracks everywhere here.

You know, the wind is cutting
the plants in an amazing way.

It's cutting the rocks.

So you get a, you know, a million, five
million year old wind track on a rock.

You get a A wind track on plants that's
maybe, you know, 20, 30 years old.

This everywhere, it's just speaking
to you in this beautiful way.

Rupert Isaacson: So, if, if back to your
point about John Young taking kids who are

struggling, say, with math and science out
into, tracking and then Them coming back

and without having had to take any extra
tutorials in math and science suddenly

They're better at math and science.

What you're really saying is that
one type of if you go to deep

cognition It's going to help all
the slightly less deep cognitions

that we call our education system.

And that's in line with
what they do in Finland.

So Finland, as you know, has the
highest math and science scores

of any school system in the world.

And they achieve this by cutting
two thirds of their classroom time

and upping two thirds of their

Craig Foster: nature.

That's great.

Isn't it?

I didn't know.

I didn't know that.

Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: they're the world
leaders and nobody follows them.

Because everyone's terrified that anything
but the devil they know you know, we're

afraid of what's unfamiliar, but for
some odd reason, the Finns were able

to take that leap because they, it's a
culture that's relatively close to nature.

If that type of tracking can
affect our learning cognition so

well, what about mental health?

Craig Foster: That's probably
where it could be, you know, in,

in my thinking, the most profound
it gives you this strange sense.

of purpose.

You know, if you really think about
it, life feels pretty purposeless.

But for some reason, doing such a
primal activity it just feels right.

I mean, and, and what I like to do, I say,
go out to a day of tracking and then, then

there's all these questions that come up.

The animals start to teach you, you
start asking hundreds of questions

and then you can do some research.

So, and then you can, you
know, somehow quantify that.

These stories that come out and it's,
it's so satisfying and then reshare them

and dialogue with your fellow trackers.

Oh, I wonder about that.

What did you think of, you know, we saw
this the same Friday we saw the tracks

of some of the first tracks I've ever
seen of isopods solidified in salt.

So these are small creatures that
live in their billions in the

intertidal, they're fascinating.

What is an isopod

Rupert Isaacson: for those
of us that don't know?

It's

Craig Foster: a, it's a crustacean,
a small flat looking crustacean

with ten legs and little antennae.

That lives in the intertidal, feeds on
kelp, and they migrate in their millions.

And we were walking along the coast,
and we just looked up, and there was

this river of creatures coming from
the water, or near the water, across

the rocks as the tide was rising.

I'm talking about, you
know, 500, 000 animals.

And it was just incredible.

The whole rock.

felt like it was moving.

And I actually lay underneath
one of the rocks and started

photographing them and the river
started running over my whole body.

I had a thousand animals on my
body and they were just moving.

And but what was so fascinating
is these, they had obviously moved

across this little area on their
journey down to the shore through

a saturated solution of salt water.

Because these animals are so
light, they weigh a few grams,

they don't really leave tracks.

But they had altered the structure
of the salt, and then when it

had solidified and crystallized,
there was a perfect solution.

Tracks of these animals, but they were
different and You could see they were

both made by isopods But they were two
of them coming next to each other were

very different and that made us think
about how these animals Moving some of

them almost dragging themselves some are
walking and that was like a three day

Discussion with our tracking group and
but it forces you to think about these

and the next time we're going to go back
We're going to watch exactly how they're

moving you And try and figure out how that
once in a, in a million track occurred.

I've never seen it before.

So it's these, it's like these
crazy details that force you

into the lives of these animals.

And you become intimate with them.

You, you.

And of course you fall in love with them.

It might be a strange thing to, to
think, but I really love these isopods.

I mean, most people would probably
find them, you know, disgusting.

They kind of feel like tiny
cockroaches, but they, these animals,

without them, we'd basically die.

I mean, this, these small
creatures are keeping us alive.

This is a reason.

Rupert Isaacson: Why, why
would we die without them?

Craig Foster: So biodiversity, which is
the complexity of all animals and plants.

Is the, the basically makes the oxygen
that we breathe and makes all the, the

food and water purifies everything.

So it's our, it's our living
biological life support system.

So if you start taking out a fundamental
animal like this, that provides food

for all the other creatures, birds
eat them, fish eat these animals,

otters eat them, everything eats them.

You will have a, a, a, a trophic
cascade, you'll have a large

amount of animals dying, and fairly
quickly we will not be able to live.

There will be no life support
system left on this planet.

So, it's a fundamental thing we've
forgotten, that biodiversity, this

mother, of, of, of all the creatures
and plants together is literally

keeping us alive from second to second.

And when you feel that, and you
look at this river of creatures,

I mean, in large parts of the
world, there, there are none left.

You just think, Oh my God, I can actually,
During this apocalypse, I'm lying and

this river of these animals, thousands
of legs are moving across my body.

Isn't that a privilege?

Isn't that a something to celebrate?

And you know, as I get up, I'm so careful
not to squash one or whatever, you know,

and just gently knock them off my shirt
and try and, you know, get them out of

the socks and everything so that none are
injured, even though they're millions.

They're just so precious.

Each one is this.

is a part of our life support system.

So it forces you to, to feel deep empathy.

This is what tracking does.

It forces you into these other,
Into the other's lives and makes

you appreciate them at such a
deep level that you feel uplifted.

You feel that this is a good
thing to be doing you know, for no

particular end, you know, just in
doing it for itself and nothing else.

And everybody in the group
feels it, you know, it's like,

Rupert Isaacson: was it Confucius
who said to for happiness, practice

the arts, basically not with the.

intention of being a master
artist or selling your work, just

the sheer joy of the practice.

Is, is, is that what we're talking
about here with the mental health?

It's the sheer joy of the
practice, the empathy.

Craig Foster: Yeah, so you don't,
you, what it does, it forces you into

the present because if you've got a
goal, you're always thinking, Ooh,

I'm now going to be, I don't know,
making an artwork from these tracks

or writing a book or something.

Then you're going to be living
in that future space, but you,

what it does, it's incredible how
it forces you into the present.

There's no cell phones, there's nothing.

We're just out in the wild.

We're trying to figure out what.

The land what the animals are
saying and you absolutely present

and that makes you feel and you
get a very distorted sense of time.

We go in and you're in that world of say
the isopods and you pop out and it's three

hours later and it feels like 15 minutes.

If so it forces you to be so present
and that is deeply healing and of

course you you know All the sounds of
the wild are there everything's making

you feel lowering your nervous system.

Put it that way.

Your whole nervous system feels,
just seems to come down and feel,

Rupert Isaacson: you know, you
talked about the sense of belonging.

Which of course we all long for because
we're social animals and you know, it's

it's a well known but true cliche that
you can be surrounded by Thousands or

millions of people but feel very lonely
because you're not connected and we

are supposed to live in these hunter
gatherer groups Where we're very connected

so is is tracking like this so good for
the mental health because It's actually

good for our physical bodies, right?

So our mental health is still
an extension of our physicality.

But also is it linked with survival
in some way in that if I can read the

environment to that degree, then I
know that I have a kind of security.

Because I just, I don't
need to worry, right?

Craig Foster: Yeah,
you're absolutely right.

And what's so interesting, I've
noticed, if I'm in a place of very

high biodiversity, I feel really good.

And I think it's the case, because my
primal being, who doesn't know I can

go to the shop and buy food and that,
knows that, ooh, this is an easy place

to survive, I don't need to worry.

I can actually, you know, I can, I
can survive and I've been to places

had the privilege of working in
near pristine islands where almost

all the biodiversity is intact.

And I have been absolutely shocked at
how that affected my mental health.

I've never felt better in my life.

And so many of the other people
around me had the same feeling.

It's like, deeply, deeply healing
to be in a place where the

biodiversity is fully intact.

And I think that's because this
wild creature inside us, the primal

mind absolutely knows that it knows.

I've even had the feeling here in the
kelp forest swimming and across a reef

where there's much more biodiversity
for a whole lot of reasons and you just

suddenly feel this amazing feeling and you
don't quite know where it's coming from.

But I think our whole mental health,
our whole levels of anxiety, our

nervous system is all woven into
the biodiversity of our planet.

It, it just makes total
sense that it would be.

And we would gravitate in, in, in
most of our time on this planet

towards places of higher biodiversity.

And we'd, we, we, I mean, as you
know, we're very nomadic by nature.

We'd be moving continually towards
places and staying in places of higher

biodiversity and then moving to another
place as that diminished, we follow the

rains, we follow the herds, we follow
the rains, we follow the biodiversity.

That's, that's our whole way
our psyche is structured.

So it's tied in, in the most magnificent
way, our life support system, our mother,

our big mother, and our wellbeing, our
mental health, it's all inseparable.

Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting
that our brains, you know, they're so

efficient and they're so inefficient.

So, you know, they we've we've come up
with these Shortcuts now, you know, so

we invented writing then we invented
money and we invented agriculture

and we invented all these things to

take out variables To make survival
efficient and then it seems that we've

done this at the cost of our mental
health I'm just thinking that you

know, we follow the rains we follow
the herds now we follow the money We

have to we have to follow the money.

Craig Foster: Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: I have to I have to and
at the same time it's One thing to follow.

Interestingly, you know, I have,
like you, parallel careers.

I've got a career in horses, a career
in mental health, a career in writing

and creative stuff, da da da, education.

You have a career in, you
know, filmmaking, storytelling.

Conservation, biodiversity,
tracking, and other things too.

I am never at my happiest and when I've
got several parallel projects going on

that seem to me to be working towards

fruition, not as in the goal,
but just as in developing nicely.

Because that, I suppose, from
what you're saying, that kind

of reflects biodiversity.

That sort of reflects me as a wild
person saying, Oh, look, you know,

the wild plums are coming out and
I see that the red deer are coming

down from the hills into the valley.

That's going to make life easier.

And oh gosh, that look
at the medicinal herbs.

They're coming up well over
there and blah, blah, blah, blah.

And.

So in a weird way, it's exactly
the same process, isn't it?

But we've made it abstract.

We've intellectualized it and that by
doing that, we then get into this big,

amazing brain that you talked about.

That's allowed us to develop
this amazing tracking thing.

What's gone wrong?

Where did we diverge from our brain
working in our favor to make us almost as

good as these animals that are stronger
and more resilient than we are in many

ways through this tracking ability.

And Where did it go wrong that, that it
began to work against us and that mental

health now is even a, a discussion?

What's your theory on that?

Craig Foster: I just want to come back
to that thing before I answer that, that,

it's so powerful what you said, you know,
we followed the reins for so long, and

now we follow the money, and then, but
how much have we sacrificed for that?

And that's, I think the
fundamental question.

You know, we actually thrive on
certain levels of hardship as well.

I mean, you know, the cold, the
exposure to the wild, the, the intense

exercise of resilience of resilience of
following we, we, we, we actually derive

tremendous pleasure from that through
delayed dopamine release and so on.

Rupert Isaacson: Oh yeah.

Craig Foster: So, so that's.

When you make things so easy and
everything's just, just one example

would be, you know, temperature control.

We love as a species being cold
and then making a little fire

and feeling warm and so on.

But.

If you've got a temperature controlled
house and you never feel that, your whole

hormonal system starts to be compromised.

Your dopamine release
is far less, etc, etc.

So the, this, in my book, what I've
talked about, this whole tame existence

it's wonderful in some ways, and a
beautiful cup of coffee and an amazing

book and whatever can be great, but it
takes so much away from that wild spirit.

That if it's become so imbalanced like
we have now and that you just have

this, all this technology everywhere,
it is so frightening for that wild

psyche, that wild psyche is desperate
to get back to these primal activities.

But at some.

It's going so far down this
sort of tame road that it's very

difficult in many cases to do that.

I don't know if that's answered much
of your question, but it certainly I

mean, where did that all start changing?

I mean, I think we know very well that as
soon as we move to agriculture, there's

a massive change in the whole psyche.

And you start to lose this connection
with the wild, you stop being nomadic.

The whole.

You know, 300, 000 years of, of living
takes a huge knock and that, that is

pretty traumatic for the wild psyche.

Then we kind of get used to that and
then all this other stuff thrown at us.

And now we've, you know, can't
think straight because our lives

are ruled by you know, a little cell
phone hand grenade in our hands.

So it's it's a very
strange world that way.

And so we've become the aliens.

In our own world, and the tracking
and these primal activities basically

reconnects us with who we are and
we stop feeling like aliens and we

start feeling like we actually belong.

And that makes you, it's, it's, it's
mentally very challenging to feel

like an alien on your own planet.

And that's what's happened.

It's not a good feeling.

Rupert Isaacson: Before we go
there, because obviously that

brings up.

For me, the question of people on the
spectrum like my oldest son, Rowan,

who would say can feel like being an
alien, being in the neurotypical world.

But even we neurotypicals feel alienated.

Something that came up in what
you just said, And again, on the

subject of mental health and why is
tracking so good for mental health?

It strikes me, from what you're saying,
that tracking is intrinsically playful.

In that, when you said, well, there's
no specific purpose, if you look at

the way kids play, before they get told
that they've got to play win or lose a

game, But when they're playing like tag
or trying to hit that rock out there

in the pond with this other rock Which
is of course, these are all hunting and

tracking preparatory games that kids play

Tracking seems to be like that
and that therefore the hunter

gatherer life And I've noticed
this with the hunter gatherers.

I've been privileged to spend
time with there's an intrinsic

light heartedness That's

Craig Foster: very, very observant.

And that's exactly the whole,
as we start to go tracking.

I don't know what it is, but the,
the whole, we become childlike in a

way, there's this jokes, there's this
teasing, there's this, this, it just

has such a, so much laughter, you know,
sometimes rolling on the floor laughter.

And strangely enough, during the tracking,
we always take some time to play frisbee.

And it's, it's something about
the throwing, you know, you're

throwing a, like throwing a
boomerang, throwing a spear.

It's like that.

Yeah.

And it's, there's no, there's no
just chucking it back and forth.

There's no purpose, but it's playful
and it goes into that fun laughter.

I mean, it's so much laughter.

On each one of those days, and often,
especially if we have rain or we

get all wet or we, it's a bit, you
know, tough for the water's freezing

and everyone's cold, we always make
a little fire at the end of the day

and huddle around it and make a meal.

It's, you know, just these basic
primal activities are just priceless.

And it's often a, you know, it's
a privilege in a way, you know, so

many people, it's such a sad thing.

It's very, very hard for
them to get to a place.

With enough biodiversity to do this.

And certainly most people on
the planet will never see a

near pristine environment.

It's deeply saddening for me.

Yet every person before a few thousand
years ago would have seen a fully

intact world with all that, you know,
that immensity, a boiling ocean, a

sky darkened by the bird life, you
know, literally blocking out the sun.

the whole earth shaking
with antelope hooves.

This is the, this was the norm.

So it's a, it's quite a, a change,
but I'd almost like to touch on that.

Well, how do you now?

With what we are facing, how do
you keep that hope and playfulness

and that, you know, yeah.

Now that mental toll in place.

So I've thought about it a bit and
instead of, there is a desire when you

start to fall in love with the wild,
there's a big desire to say, okay,

now I'm gonna try and save this planet

And it's, it's a giant impossible task,
especially with everything going on to, to

even consider, but you can certainly, if
there are enough islands of biodiversity,

enough islands of hope, enough islands
of people, and there are many incredible

people and groups of people around this
world, and especially indigenous people

who, as you know, are protecting, I
think, 80 percent of the biodiversity

on this planet, even though they only
make up 5 percent of human beings.

There's enough of those
islands and this growing.

Understanding of how crucial this is that
whole communal psyche can shift, but we

have to change the story, the story of,
of great extraction and capitalism and

increased growth is that has to change
to a story of reciprocity and, and living

with the wild and regenerating the wild,
but for the mental health side of it, I

think what's very powerful is to celebrate
the Each interaction with each creature

or plant you come in contact with, instead
of focusing on, Oh my goodness, you know,

90 percent of the big fish are gone.

And every time you go in the water,
you feel downtrodden, but every time

you see a fish, or at least when I
do, it feels like a miracle to me

that I'm swimming with a big fish or
a big shark in during the apocalypse.

It's like, oh my god, this is a miracle.

Like when I had those isopods
moving over my body, it's a miracle.

that this is still ongoing and this place
is so resist, you know, resilient that we

have these islands of biodiversity still,
despite this unrelenting extraction.

It's a miracle.

And that of course it will all come back.

We are knocking it down at a rate
that's never been seen on this planet.

None of our ancestors will
ever, ever had to go through the

kind of climate change we will.

It's more volatile now in the
near future than it's ever been

in our 300, 000 year old history.

And it's never changed as far.

So we are up against serious stuff.

But we have to remain and keep
that hope and keep that love

there because that's what we have.

That's the, the only.

thing we have.

And it is, it is a miracle
that we're living in.

It is literally a miracle and to
see that, but you cannot allow

oneself to be taken down that, you
know, the loss of so many things.

It's not easy.

That's the, the thing.

So it's a, it's a strange balance
that one has to find, but it does

help a lot, of course, to be seeing
these, It's magnificent things.

Some parts of the world, unfortunately,
you know, it's so compromised,

especially in the Northern
Hemisphere, the insects are gone.

It is tough.

That is a tough scenario.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's interesting.

I mean, so obviously, yeah, you're,
you're able to go and do these things

because you live, despite the fact that
you live near a large city, there's

a, you, you live on the edge of a.

Very large protected area.

You are in one of those
islands of biodiversity.

I'm just thinking, as you were
talking, I'm sitting here in the

northern hemisphere in Germany.

It's very, very cold and I'm looking out
at what we call a hoarfrost, which is,

you know, the entire, everything is white.

All the trees are white,
everything is white.

And as we've been talking, I
think I've counted 20 species

of birds outside the window.

And while you were talking about,
you know, swimming with a giant fish,

you know, I was watching a large
blue heron fly across the window.

My window, but down below my
garden here, there's a main road.

And if I were to go another, Oh,
kilometer in that direction, I would

hit a highway, like a proper one that
goes, you know, but in between are

all these islands of biodiversity.

So the reason why there's this 20 species
of birds outside my window is because

Despite the fact that there's houses
here, there's also some water meadows

between the main road and the motorway.

And then there's forest as well.

And

I could look outside at that and say,
oh, that's a peri urban landscape.

Or I could look out at that and say,
how wonderful that in this peri urban

landscape, there's all this biodiversity.

It's up to how I see it.

And I do feel that back to this idea of
playfulness and belonging and the feeling

of security that the wild mind has.

One of the difficulties with agriculture,
which of course has come over into the

industrial world and capitalism, and
so on, is it's not just capitalism.

It's anything post agriculture is
that it's, it's all about toil.

It's all about repetitive.

Unpleasant work that one does for money
that makes people, makes the soul angry.

We know that warfare, for
example, begins with agriculture

and then it creates scarcity.

So that creates warfare, creates
overpopulation, which creates warfare.

Okay, we understand these things.

But it means that I could then be in this
landscape, which actually is very nice.

large village, small town that I
live on the edge of in Germany.

It's very beautiful.

But I could be looking at it
as, oh, the nature's gone.

Or I could be looking at it as,
wow, there's so much nature here.

Depending on what my outlook is,
I would posit that I was taught, I

have a certain inherent optimism.

It's part of my nature.

But I would posit that I got really
taught it by the years that I

was lucky enough to spend in and
around the Kalahari with the sun.

Bushman, who really showed me how
important this light heartedness and

looking for the glass half full type
Optimism of the tracker the hunter

Assuming a good outcome because
if you go out pessimistic, you're

probably gonna miss opportunities

But if one's mind is trained to not be
wild then it seems that perhaps we're

training ourselves into pessimism and
pessimism Can go to despair and despair.

Well, we know that leads to So,
okay, you are there in Cape Town.

I'm up here in the Northern
Hemisphere, but I'm still looking

at a pretty nice place outside.

If we are living in a place like, and you
can be in the, in the Southern hemisphere.

If I'm in the middle of urban Johannesburg
or if I'm in the middle of urban

Queens or London, what am I gonna do?

How can I rewild?

How can I track?

How can I begin to have these experiences?

And I know you wrote about this
in your book, Amphibious Soul.

So I'd like you to take us through some
of those specifics that you noticed when

you found you were out there having to
walk around in New York and London and

find a way to do this, but maybe we
could then with that take it further.

What are the strategies?

that we can use to rewild the
brain in the non wild settings.

Craig Foster: Yeah, that's a, that's
a, obviously a large percentage of the

human population lives in these cities.

Yeah.

So it's quite critical.

And I was pretty worried because I'd
spent, years outside the city, years

in, I spent 10 years every single
day in the, in the great African

sea forest, in the kelp forest.

And I was pretty skeptical to see
if it was even possible to access

or any of this in a, in a city.

And I was very pleasantly
surprised in the middle of London.

To be able to actually do some pretty
amazing tracking and there's something

weirdly more satisfying About being
able to find things in the middle

of a city because you expect Yeah,
yeah, of course, you're going to find

it, down here in the kalahari and it
tracks everywhere It's pretty obvious,

but in the city you're thinking.

Oh my goodness.

This is just going to be a disaster And
I was amazed at how much information I

could get about animals, about humans.

And I was able to, I don't do well in
cities normally feel very, very tired,

but when I went into this tracking
mode, I was given a lot of energy.

And I think we spoke about this before,
but if we found, I found these amazing

tracks of slugs in London, the teeth marks
all over the algae, absolutely beautiful.

Markings,

Rupert Isaacson: where did you find them?

How did you find them?

How did you know they were teeth marks
and how did you know slugs had teeth?

Craig Foster: Okay.

That's a cool, cool question.

So, you know, I don't know
too much about slugs and I'm

certainly not tracking them here.

But.

They're in the mollusk family and
so slugs are very similar to our sea

snails and I'm very very familiar
with all the little teeth marks that

the different sea snails leave on
the kelp and the algae and whatever.

So as I was in the middle of London in
I think it was Bloomsbury or wherever

it was the heart of London they told me
and on this kind of edge of the sidewalk

there'd been some water running and
it was covered in this very fine mossy

algae, and there, Clara's Day, were
these tracks of the teeth of a mollusk.

I mean, I knew it immediately,
because I know them like, I know that

language so well in the kelp forest.

So, it had to be some kind of mollusk.

I knew the size as well
because I know the, the teeth.

The size of the teeth.

They're called a radula.

It's a tooth.

I'm just looking it

Rupert Isaacson: up right now on Google.

Craig Foster: So every snail,
every snail has a radula.

Every sea snail has a radula tooth.

Flexible

Rupert Isaacson: band of thousands
of microscopic teeth called a radula.

Yeah,

Craig Foster: exactly.

So, and you know, even
even an octopus has it.

Because it's a mollusk.

So it had to be some kind of mollusk.

Then I saw the little silvery slime
trails, and I saw the tiny little

holes that they were going in.

There couldn't be a shell fitting in
that hole, so it had to be Basically,

it had to be a slug but I can't tell
you how beautiful these tracks are.

I mean, they're like absolute artworks.

They're like these incredible ancient
braille that have been laid down by the

teeth, and it's in this beautiful bright
green algae, so they'd look magnificent.

And there were thousands of them,
and I could see the, the youngsters

feeding next to the adults, and you
know, all happening at night, but

I was seeing it during the day, and
then they retreat, and it's awesome.

And literally, I mean, nobody
except the old slug scientists

would be noticing that.

But there were thousands
of other tracks as well.

Even dog and fox tracks left in the
concrete permanently or semi permanently.

Amazing.

ancient signs carved on the old
sidewalks that apparently represented

the old churches and places.

Beautiful crosses and other
symbols, many different symbols.

So ancient human tracks, almost like
rock art, on the actual pavements.

When it was wet and there were puddles,
there were incredible tracks of rats

and squirrels moving and leaving
temporary And I followed some of them

and found their little holes and layers.

Strange tracks of like that looked but
weren't obviously big snakes moving

and they were turned out to be baby
strollers because when those things turn

a corner they leave the weirdest tracks.

Took me about an hour to figure that out.

You could tell I was fascinated by the
chewing gum that had been thrown down

on the sidewalks because you could
tell where people had stopped to eat.

Or places that they would the
gum would accumulate before they

entered a building or whatever.

You could tell a lot about, and certain
areas had been cleaned where that

was like, the gum wasn't accepted.

So there was sort of
more highfalutin areas.

So, I mean, it was, it was so much.

And this was only a day.

two days of tracking.

So in an unfamiliar environment,
I would be able to accumulate an

enormous amount of information
if I spent a few months there.

So, you know, a small bird
living in a city like that can

teach you an enormous amount.

That animal is a master of
survival, especially in a

cold environment like yours.

How the hell is it keeping alive?

You know, just to know how that works
would teach you an enormous amount

about birds, but also about yourself.

And you'd appreciate that
animal at a deep level.

I mean, every, you know, bird you see is
a kind of master of survival and with all

the predators and everything going on.

So I think it could even be more
satisfying because You just looking

at this fragments of life in these,
you know, deeply urban areas.

Right.

And it,

Rupert Isaacson: go ahead.

Sorry, please finish.

Craig Foster: And, and I mean, people
don't like rats, but and they cause,

can cause a lot of havoc, but I mean,
those guys are masters of survival.

You could learn so much from them all
living in the underground salaries.

Bats.

I don't

know.

I mean, you could just.

It would be fast.

The lichens growing on buildings.

It's just endless what you could do,

Rupert Isaacson: right?

It's like somebody has
to open one's eyes to it.

When I was a kid, I was my parents
lived and still live in central London.

But that area, Islington, which is
not far from where you were, there's

a lot of green, a lot of nature
that snakes in to those areas.

There's the areas along the railway.

There's the areas along the canal.

I would be drawn to those.

The squares with the large trees, and the
thousands of starlings that would come

and roost at night, that sort of thing.

But even those environments, you could
argue, those older city environments

are relatively natural in certain ways.

Let's go one stage deeper.

So you, you've been traveling a
lot lately, which means you've been

spending a lot of time in airports.

I spend a lot of time in airports.

Let's take that environment.

Okay.

You are in the airport in Dubai.

You're in the, in
Frankfurt airport, right?

Now, how are you going to track?

Now, how are you going to
satisfy this part of your brain?

And let's say your office building
with its cubicle or your, most

kids have no choice in the
environments that they're put into.

Let's take a shitty school.

Concrete for my microplastic,
okay, so airport office school,

not walking around Bloomsbury, not
walking the canals in Islington.

Now how are we tracking?

Craig Foster: So now we almost have
to, I mean, I was last in the this

airport, I don't know where it was, and
I was fascinated, I was looking around

me and I could not see a single thing
that a wild person would recognize.

Not one.

But the sounds were, were
pretty interesting and the

smells were pretty interesting.

So they would, they would recognize
the, obviously the sounds of children.

They didn't recognize the sounds of feet.

So, What you'd be looking, you'd
be mostly be tracking animals.

I mean, I mean, human animals.

So, I mean, there's almost no, you get
the odd dog that someone's carrying in

a crate or whatever, but it's amazing
almost to appreciate the tremendous

lack of biodiversity and wildness.

I mean, it is startling and scary and.

Kind of horrific, but
it's also fascinating.

And I mean, there really are.

And you just think about that as
an environment that you've created.

It's kind of madness.

It really is.

Why would you want to do that?

But you of course can track There's a
lot of wear marks in the these airports.

There's a lot of places where
people drop money, like tracks,

money tracks, in certain places.

There's stains.

You can, there are you can see
a lot of little things where

people are touching doors, where,
what places they're touching.

Why?

The various smells that different types
of shoes people are wearing will tell them

a lot, tell you a lot about who they are.

Just look and then observe and trying
to see, you know, types of luggage

will tell you about a person's
personality or what they're doing

or, you know, so much about cultures.

I mean, there's endless things to be,

to be looking at.

But it is basically

Rupert Isaacson: down to one species that
you're, you're, you're down to the human.

Craig Foster: Yes, I mean some airports
have got birds, but it's pretty limited

you basically down to you know, basically

There's still a lot of creatures,
of course, they're just microscopic.

Yeah on our bodies inside our bodies I
mean with thousands of Different creatures

that are actually keeping us alive as well
in our biome and on our skins everywhere.

And I guess you could try and tap into it.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's interesting.

You bring that one up.

So Smells.

The smells of other humans.

When we are pressed together in
close proximity, airplane is one

of them, and busy airport, the
full bathroom, smells of shit.

And people sometimes smell good
and sometimes don't smell good.

I'm not talking about the
scents, the artificial scents

they put on, I'm just talking.

And then I became fascinated,
well, why am I reacting well

to the scent of that person and
not to the scent of that person?

Why do I find that
person's breath or sweat?

Repugnant, why don't I
get curious about that?

Why?

Or if I'm waiting in the bathroom and I
go, Oh God, it smells of shit in here.

It's like, well, yes, of course,
because that's where we're all shitting,

but each shit smells different.

Why does it smell different?

And what's it telling me?

And I became fascinated with this.

And then of course I wrote,
it's all about gut flora.

And then I realized that there's, that
gut flora not only produce, of course,

all these different sulfury, nitrogeny
chemicals, which stink like poo, but.

They send out more subtle signs so
that, for example, they can tell you if

you think someone is ill or not, which
can have an effect on one's emotional

reaction to them, and this is happening
on a subconscious level, or that they're

very healthy, or that perhaps their
gut biome is is complementary to your

gut biome and therefore it smells good
to you and therefore you're attracted.

And it, the last six months or so of
my travel, I've been kind of trying

to look through that olfactory lens a
little bit in these step, quote unquote,

sterile environments, partly as a way
to just find them more interesting.

And I found that my curiosity was
indeed satiated because it led me

into an area of science that I knew
a bit about, because I work with

autism, so gut brain is important.

Dietary, but I was looking at that much
more from a, how, how good is this type

of diet for your neurons or not, you know.

This went sort of deeper, but I
would, I was forced to do that,

because I was forced to look
for things to be interested in.

I, however, like you, have been taught
how, I've been mentored in curiosity.

I've been mentored in how
to find curiosity in places

where it's not obvious.

How do we help people who are suffering
with the sense of alienation that

you talked about, the sense of non
belonging that you talked about who

have not been mentored in this rewilding
process, this curiosity process.

What's your, if you were to write a basic
one, two, three, Curiosity, tracking

for dummies, curiosity for dummies,
rewilding for dummies to like hand out

as a user manual to people in this.

What would be like the three to
five things that you would say?

Here's the, this leads to this, this
leads to this, this leads to this,

and this leads to that, and therefore
you will find happiness and belonging.

What do you reckon?

What would you do just as
a mental exercise here?

Craig Foster: I would maybe challenge
him a little bit to say, you know,

can they name even 10 species of
wild animals in their backyard?

And then most people almost can't do that.

Maybe they're not, not
necessarily interested.

Well that's the question.

I

Rupert Isaacson: don't care
about animals in my backyard.

Craig Foster: They suck.

How do we get past that?

So we get past that I think by saying,
well, you know, if you're perfectly happy

and you feel content you know, spending
enormous amounts of time on your cell

phone and, you know, watching TV, that's
great, but it's, you, you'd be in the 0.

001 percentile.

So we know that this this technology
and this lifestyle most of the time

produces a human being that is going
to be struggling with mental health.

It's just, I mean, it's
hard to argue against that.

Would you agree?

Rupert Isaacson: No, a hundred percent.

I think that one of the things about being
in depression, I've been in depression.

I know you've been in depression is
one isn't always aware of it, right?

And then you also want to stick
with the devil, you know, and your

fear of change gets even greater.

So yes, you could point out to me Yeah,
well Rupert look you're not happy.

I might react.

Well, yes, I am actually or I might
say well fuck off That's none of your

business or some sort of defensive
reaction where I justify staying here

So yes, you've drawn my attention
to these species in the backyard or

in the park or outside the window.

I've then reacted
predictably with resistance.

Now what?

And then you've responded with logic.

Yes, but look, mental health is suffering.

Bum, bum, bum.

I then give you some more resistance.

What's the next phase
to help me through that?

Do you think out into the wild?

Craig Foster: I mean, you're pushing
me beyond my, but I would say that

one could gently, quite an interesting
thing would be to You know, cause

you got to sort of just change
the brain chemistry a little bit.

Okay.

And what I found is very useful is,
okay, we're going to just challenge

ourselves a little bit and we're
going to go and get a little bit cold.

Ah, and we're going to do
something strange and you might

be out of your comfort zone.

But why don't you just try it?

Because Guarantee you 100 percent you
will feel markedly better afterwards

and that gets their curiosity.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Craig Foster: Because to go straight into
like trying to track or do animal behavior

is quite difficult for some people.

So just say, okay, let's just find
a body of water, easier in a colder

climate and let's just get water.

Pretty cold for a short while, you don't
want to push their immune system too much.

And what happens when you get into that
discomfort and you get in the cold and

you, you kind of guide people through it.

And the first two, two or
three minutes is pretty tough.

And then finally you
feel okay for a while.

They get out the water and then there's
a 250 percent increase in dopamine.

Suddenly they feel.

Rupert Isaacson: Give us that stat again.

You said that very fast.

Craig Foster: percent
increase in dopamine.

Rupert Isaacson: From going
from very cold to warming up?

Craig Foster: No, from going
from nice and warm to the cold.

To the cold

Rupert Isaacson: gives you the dopamine?

Craig Foster: Yeah, so when you
get into the cold, it releases

not only dopamine, but masses
of noradrenaline and adrenaline.

You just suddenly feel far more alive.

So then you've changed
the whole brain chemistry.

It's in an incredibly powerful, quick way.

And then when they're
in that altered state.

You'd say, oh, look at that little bird.

Amazing, that guy's surviving without
any clothes out in the cold all night.

I wonder what that animal could teach us.

And they're in that heightened state,
so there might be some interest.

And that's how you, it's
a whole body scenario.

It's not just about
just tracking an animal.

And you suddenly, you start
to paint a picture of what

it was like, how we designed.

And if we do these little primal
activities, Just how much better we feel

and how we'll get to know ourselves.

And then you start maybe a little bit
of tracking in after that experience

and the brain chemistry shifted, and
you'd have to slowly repeat that.

And then you'd see a few marks and you'd
ask that person what you think that could

be, and then they would normally have no
idea, and then you could interpret the

tracks and slowly build up a repertoire.

And an interest.

And if someone will suddenly, they will
suddenly get it like, Oh my goodness,

this feels really good, but to do it
in a playful way, like you were talking

about a fun, playful, non serious, almost
joking way where you just get uplifted.

And it's like this purposeless
endeavor, but it's actually.

You know, deeply serious in
many ways, because you can

find your way back to yourself.

You know, we, we, we
have got totally lost.

We've forgotten who we are and we
need this oldest language on earth

to bring us back to ourselves.

Rupert Isaacson: What you've
hit on, of course, is the

altered state of consciousness.

which is an authentically human thing.

The wild human seeks out altered
states of consciousness, right?

So there's the shaman or the healer in
the middle of the community who might

use as in the Kalahari strenuous dance to
enter an altered state of consciousness

for healing, or in the Amazon, they
might use a plant with the same effect.

Dimethyltryptamine in it to affect
the brain in that way, but either

way this pursuit of the altered
state of consciousness is as old as

humanity, hence alcohol, hence drugs.

If I'm in that environment
where I'm feeling depressed, I

will turn to alcohol and drugs.

I mean, alcohol is drugs, right?

So I will turn to drugs.

You could argue that so did my
ancestors, but perhaps in a way to

celebrate life rather than in a way to

deal with despair.

So I would say that a lot of people
in those non ideal environments

do actually turn to that quest for
an altered state of consciousness.

But what I hadn't put two and two
together was, is that you saying, yes,

look, if you can change the state of
consciousness through the sensory World

ie let's go get cold or let's go get
sweaty or let's go run up something So

we pant a little bit and so whatever
happens we're going to put our bodies

through a type of a stress that releases
dopamine Then we're going to alter in

that particular way Then we're going to
begin that altered state of consciousness

and adrenaline and things as well that
give us a chance to change our perception

And then you can begin to introduce.

So you said that I was pushing
you outside your comfort zone.

I think you answered that absolutely
brilliantly, practically, which.

leads me to the next question, which is
therefore should tracking, I think should

tracking be part of school curriculum?

I think we could answer that one,
but should it be part also of like,

let's say I'm running a company.

What if I had tracking days?

For my employees, would they be better
employees and would they be more

productive employees because they
would they be more holistic thinkers

and would they be happier in their
bodies and minds and would they be

there for better able to also track
solutions in the business world?

What do you think?

Craig Foster: I think it would radically.

Change their way of thinking.

It does seem to rewire neural
networks in a very positive way.

And it does, to me, seem to
improve thinking radically.

So if, if you could introduce that
into schools or businesses I think

it would make a massive difference,
but of course one would have to put

that to the test and one would have
to do it in quite a creative way

that it was fun for people as well.

Cause that makes such a difference.

So, you know, it's just like the story
we're told in Sweden or whatever,

I think wherever people have been
exposed to nature In a deep way, we

see massive increases in well being.

We see increases in energy.

We see, we see massive positivity.

I mean, it's not surprising when we
are designed to be wild creatures and

we're given a bit of our primal food.

Of course, we're going to react well.

So why aren't we doing more of that?

I mean, that is what we've given up
for what we've gained is, is a joke.

I mean, let's face it, you think we've
got all this, you know, all these

trinkets, but what we've given up is
this absolute awe and magnificence

and wonder and all this diversity.

I mean, it's just, it's ridiculous
to think what we've done.

You know, you go into the middle of a you
know, I was recently in, at Climate Week

in, New York, busiest time of year, in the
middle of the busiest part of the city.

I'd just come in from, you know,
diving in the great African sea

forest, and I looked around, and
it was like, I could not actually

believe what I was seeing and hearing.

It was so shocking, I cannot tell you.

And we've given up, you know, this,
and the, if you plonked yourself in

the middle of that city, and then
you plonked yourself in a place

of near pristine biodiversity,
and just notice the difference.

It is.

I mean, it's like, it's
not even night and day.

It's more than that.

Rupert Isaacson: It's
happiness to unhappiness.

Yeah.

Craig Foster: It's, it's, it's, it's,
it's like torture to the primal joy.

Yes.

Now I would agree.

It's absurd.

It's absurd.

What we've given up.

What's

Rupert Isaacson: interesting too
is our tolerance, you know, because

as you say, you know, we're able
to tolerate extremes, right?

So.

Tolerating extreme cold can be quite
good for us, or tolerating extreme

heat can be quite good for us.

If it goes beyond a certain level,
obviously it's not good for us.

But, we do crave it to some degree, but
it seems like we've almost taken this.

To an extreme of living inside the
amygdala, living inside stress, living

inside cortisol to a degree where
I'm astonished by our resilience.

I mean, as you say, you could look around
there in New York and go, wow, it's awful.

Or you could look around and go,
wow, it's kind of amazing that

our species can tolerate this.

But what are we tolerating?

Noise pollution.

Craig Foster: Yeah.

That's the, that's the.

The thing, the, the, the reward
doesn't in any way match the sacrifice.

Rupert Isaacson: So people listening
might be thinking, all right, I'm sold.

But I'm living not close to an area
of great biodiversity, but I do

hear about learning how to change my
nervous system a bit, put my nervous

system in slightly unfamiliar.

And things that will change my brain
a bit, which will help my curiosity.

And I will start looking for species
and tracking the wind or tracking

people or tracking people's stink or
what, you know, all of these things.

Okay.

Like it or not, Craig, you are
becoming a guru in this field.

You are a mentor, so mentor us.

I'm now listening to this
podcast, I'm driving my car,

perhaps I'm sitting in traffic.

I might think, what is the basic
minimum that you as Craig Foster

know that you need on a given day to
tip the balance towards happiness?

Because you're a sensitive dude, you can
be tipped into unhappiness pretty quickly.

So, you're quite a good measure of this.

How, what's the ba, the basic minimum
of tracking type activity that you

would say for you in the course of a
day tips the balance to the positive?

Craig Foster: Well, for me, I do need
a lot and I crave a lot, so I want

to put as many hours of the day into
that, but other people might not need

as much, but what I would say is that
if you could just, it feels very.

Difficult at first and vast and open just
take one creature I mean this morning

before the podcast I was watching some
dragonflies eco pool I have and the female

was laying eggs on the surface and the
male was doing this guarding behavior and

they basically fly and hover to make sure
that other males don't come in while this

activity is going on and protect the area.

And I shot a bit of it in slow motion
on my little cell phone and just watched

it and the amount of joy that brought.

And then of course.

Say you've got a dragonfly in your
backyard, the amount of fascination

that that animal can bring to you.

Observe it, photograph it,
draw it, read up on it.

Just become obsessed with
dragonflies for three months.

Find out, I mean, they, they, you
know, this triphobus animal that

can both fly, swim, and walk.

It's a pretty incredible creature
and you will be amazed if you start

to read up on them and know them
and observe them, you, you will

start to see insane animal behavior.

Aerial fights, you'll see unbelievable
predations they make on other insects.

You will be blown away.

You'll suddenly think, Oh my God,
I'm inside National Geographic

in my backyard and a dragonfly.

It's a small insect, will blow your
mind completely, and will change

the way you're looking at nature.

So just start with one creature
that's easy for you to access.

Even a fly is mind blowing, that that
thing can, can operate, I mean, on

that amount of, small amount of energy
and do the kind of aerial acrobatics

and how wind and gravity affect it.

I mean, it's just totally mind blowing.

So just focus on one thing.

And also then what will force you to
do is you'll, say you took dragonflies,

you'll understand their prey, you'll
understand their predators, you'll

understand the ecosystem they need,
you'll understand Be forced to understand

a lot of other things, but just focus
on the one thing that helps a lot And

then you might want to I don't know
move on to frogs or whatever it is It's

interacting in the same environment

Rupert Isaacson: as you were talking.

I was getting curious about dragonflies
So it occurred to me that dragonflies

fly vertically and can make the kinds
of turns at speed And That normally most

things in flight can't do without breaking
up, like, that's, you know, when you get

to sort of UFOs and unidentified aerial
phenomenon and all that stuff, and they

describe things moving in ways that defy
the laws of physics as we know them.

Because they shouldn't be able to stop
or move or turn that fast given how

fast they're going blah and apparently
dragonflies do this And apparently they

do this By creating vibration inside
the body inside these tubules back to

tubules again inside the wing That create
lift in a way that the people who think

that perhaps the pyramids were built
by creating sound vibration things that

lifted objects which you can actually
levitate, you can look it up on YouTube,

there's people levitating stuff with
sound waves right there in front of you.

But apparently this is how
dragonflies actually fly.

And so one could go into a hundred
different mythological or scientific

places from how does a dragonfly fly?

Craig Foster: Exactly.

But you see, you've been trained
in curiosity and that's what you

need to have with the training.

You need to be having that
curiosity and just starting to

ask yourself questions like that.

And you can take yourself
down these fantastic roads

and it's deeply satisfying.

And then of course, and of
course connect with people who.

You know, do it a lot.

But there's something about doing it
yourself for a while and then doing that.

You could join a group of people who like
to do this or whatever, and then you would

learn fast, but it is very satisfying to
know about animals in your environment.

It will change you fundamentally.

There's no question, but you
have to have the deep curiosity.

It can't just be, okay.

You know, I know one or two simple facts.

You've got to step into
that animal's world.

Right.

And then feel your own psyche
changing in that process.

Feel your own psyche

Rupert Isaacson: changing, I love that.

Craig Foster: So we have done
this from the beginning of time.

We have had these incredible
relationships with wild creatures and

plants from the beginning of time.

We're expecting that, every
wild child is expecting that.

Now you take that away, there's
some weird level of trauma.

When you start to make those connections
again and re establish that kinship

with these creatures, with these
plants, something happens in the

psyche that makes you feel much better.

Some of that's mysterious,
some of it's kind of obvious.

And it's just a fundamental.

So it's a, it's a, it's
a powerful thing to do.

Rupert Isaacson: As you say, curiosity
is something which requires training.

I think of it like a muscle.

That one has to, it's just like
one's body, one, one has to train it.

One of the nice things about,
you know, we, we've talked

about the ills of technology.

Okay.

But you and I are able to use
this technology of the zoom.

You're sitting down there in Cape town.

I'm sitting up here in Germany.

We couldn't do that.

We couldn't produce this
podcast without that technology.

And of course, as you were
talking about the dragon

flight, I got out my cell phone.

For the about the fourth time in this
conversation and started looking up

stuff around what you were talking
about that cell phone Has basically

all of human knowledge at my fingertips
if I want it I could also use it for

really inane things and that's also
alright sometimes But I think we often

forget now we have access to so much
more curiosity fodder than we ever

had, if we can use it in the right way.

But we still have to
ally it to the organism.

So I love what you were saying
about get curious about one

thing that you can observe.

outside of your window or in your
immediate environment that will change.

Craig Foster: And the critical thing is,
sorry to just, we mustn't forget this, is

it's the regular observing of the animal
that's so critical, because that gives you

access to, you know, It's secret world.

So, so for instance, if you had a million
dollars and you went on the best safari

in the world and saw the big five and
everything for two weeks, that would

have a way less effect than observing a
dragon fly for six months, way, way less.

All those millions of
dollars spent doing that.

It's the intimacy.

And I made that mistake a bit.

Intimacy.

Good word.

So I made that mistake when I was
younger, I went off and wanted these wild

adventures, went diving with crocodiles,
great white sharks, the whole thing.

But I, you can't do that.

every day.

It's very difficult.

Ironically, my relationship with
limpets, which are little creatures,

molluscs that live in the intertidal,
I can visit them every day.

They're always there and
watch them every day.

They seem to not be moving, but their
lives are absolutely fascinating.

And they changed my whole
understanding of the intertidal zone.

They've changed my whole mind.

So it's that kind of
thing that you need to do.

It's the regular connection With these
wild creatures and going deep and

you will think, Oh, there's nothing,
there's nothing, there's nothing.

And if you just keep, you've
got to get bored as well.

Got to sit there.

Don't go to the cell phone for the
entertainment, get bored, watch, watch.

And then suddenly, boom, I'm
into deeper world, deeper,

deeper into their secret lives.

Oh, there's nothing going
on for a couple of weeks.

And suddenly you drop in and
you're just completely blown away.

By what they're teaching you and
that is Incredibly satisfying

Rupert Isaacson: you you hit on something
very good there that you have to be

prepared Yes to be bored and to go a
couple of weeks without it seeming, you

know in our netflix, Cell phone worlds.

We're used to immediate Constant dopamine
stimulation and this is a tricky thing

to get around we have a relationship
at where I keep my horses with a with

the local crows You So they started
interacting with us in an interesting way

because they were looking for obviously
little bits of grain in the horse poo.

And as we move the horse poo into the
pick it up off the field and put it

on the muck heap, they begin to follow
because they know we'll break it up.

And they can find things in
there, this become became fun.

So we started playing with them and
leaving little peanuts out for them

to see what they do with those.

Now we're getting to the point
where we're wondering, will they

start to bring stuff back to us?

But we've also observed that they now
interesting hierarchies within their

own group about who gets to show up
to be with us where and when, and

then how they are territorial with
other birds in the area, ba ba bum.

But we are out there looking
for this kind of thing.

I I I love Your idea of looking
for a slug or a dragonfly keeping

it to the insect world at first

Craig Foster: What's cool
about sorry the corvids?

I mean, is they are so intelligent
so intelligent I I recently met

amazing guy George Buman who
actually speaks Raven language.

Tell us the name again George Buman
How do I spell his his I think

it's B U M A N N B B U M A N N Yes.

And he's written a fantastic book on a
lot of what we're talking about, but he

has taken the time to actually understand
these calls of the ravens in his area.

And they tell him about the deer,
they tell him about the coyotes,

they tell him about the bears.

And he can actually mimic.

These sounds and communicate with them.

It's absolutely
fascinating, very inspiring.

So you can take it, but it's taken
many years and that's the thing.

This is a complexity that's
hard to imagine, and that's

what makes it so exciting.

You're not going to.

You know, if you're learning a lot of
things in our society today, after a

few years, it's like, okay, that's it.

But this is a deep complexity that will
keep you entertained for your whole life.

And you can go further and further.

I mean, as you know, the crows are, they
make tools they fish for lava with hooks.

They make, I mean, it's just
incredible what they can do.

So.

Yeah, I think that there's this whole
world out there that most people aren't

accessing that is deeply enriching.

Rupert Isaacson: I think we have
taken this conversation to where

I was hoping to take it, which is

why does tracking enrich?

You just use that word enrich our lives.

How do we achieve?

I like the fact that you
use this word intimacy.

That it's this intimate contact with
nature that's so deeply satisfying.

More so than, okay, the initial
excitement of going on safari and seeing

Big Five, yes, of course, of course.

But, as you say, it's, even when you're
on those big safaris, it's often the

small things that people point out to
you that are the real takeaway memories.

Something about the spiders,
something about the bats,

something about the beetles.

I want to just recap for the, for
the listener, that what Craig took us

through on that process, even though
he said he couldn't do it, he actually

did do it was this idea of challenging
oneself when one's in a non active state.

ideal natural environment
for one's mental health.

To change one's sensory
environment, right?

So you were saying get a little cold,
get a little hot, get a little tired.

Go through that type of stress
that creates that bigger dopamine

release that will cause a
change in your brain chemistry.

And if at the same time you can look for
some very small insect life, would you say

that and then as you're beginning to track
that over, say, three months, that make

that partly a solo process, but then also
begin to look for a small group of people.

I could also be online where
you get together to discuss

what could be going on and that.

First step of the sensory change, plus
the observation tracking change, with

the third stage of the social group.

Getting together around that tracking.

I think, Craig, you might have cracked
the secret of human happiness right now.

I think you might have.

Craig Foster: And what's critical
is to have a tracking journal.

A tracking journal.

Okay.

So to have a tracking journal
where you Writing down these

observations and growing them
and looking back and collecting

photographs, sketching, and you, you
build, you're building a language.

You're basically, you, you're
relearning the oldest language on earth.

And I guarantee you, when you
start to speak that language,

it's going to take a few years.

It will fundamentally change your life.

There's no question, but
you need to work at it.

Like any language, you need to work at it.

Like any relationship.

Exactly.

Exactly.

You need to work at it and you will,
that little tracking journal that

becomes thicker and thicker will
be your, you know, your, your deep

inspiration and you keep growing it.

And, and, you know, might
eventually have many of them.

Did somebody

Rupert Isaacson: tell you to create
a tracking journal or was that

something that you evolved yourself?

Craig Foster: Pretty much.

Yeah, I was doing it intuitively.

And I was using the camera and
the photographs and the notes and

everything to, to teach myself that
that's how the animals taught me.

But you know, your memory is not
good enough to hold it all in.

So you need the journal to keep
the kind of the master trackers.

That's what's so amazing.

They've got these unbelievable
photographic memories.

They can help, but it's also
practicing every day, every day.

And then at night you're talking about
the stories and that's, what's so cool

is you, you You know, to talk about the
tracking mysteries, that's the oldest

storytelling on earth, you know, the, the,
the, the stories of the track of the hunt.

It's it's so satisfying.

Rupert Isaacson: I would be very
interested to know what's the

rate of dementia in this, these
populations of master trackers.

Is this type of intimate.

tracking constantly and then the
interpretation of it with your peer group.

Is this what the brain needs to stay
young in the same way that it needs

the physical tracking in order to,
for the body to stay sort of young?

Is this what we need as,
as we age more and more?

Craig Foster: Yeah, I mean, I would,
I would be, I would so love to have

that, that data, that science, but
I don't know if anyone's done that.

Rupert Isaacson: I'm, well, I happen to
know some people that are studying it, so

I'm going to, Go off and talk to them and
see if we could, because now I'm thinking,

well, what if you had this kind of, okay,
we talked about schools and offices.

What about old people's homes?

You know, we put people, old
people in old people parking now.

Crazy, right?

Those are our tribal elders.

They're the people with all the knowledge,
they've lived through everything before.

And what do we do?

Do we consult with them?

No, we isolate them.

And then it seems that they don't move.

They're sitting.

So the brain dies.

And then we lose out, right?

Because we don't have the
tribal elder to guide us.

Should that be?

built into like, you know, some people
have started, there's a couple of

projects which have worked really
well about putting kindergartens into

old people's homes, which causes all
this movement and problem solving

and keeps, keeps the brain young.

But yeah, yeah.

I'm wondering those of us who are
listening, who are 50 and up and

approaching 60 and all that, you
know, is it even more acute for us to

start thinking along these lines to
keep our brains fluid and flexible?

And I'd posit it.

How could it not be?

Craig Foster: I mean, I think the,
the, the few real elders I work with

who are biologists or naturalists.

I mean, it's incredible how agile
they are, how full of energy they

are and how much knowledge they have.

We actually, you know.

We go to them for all the, the deep
questions, you know, so, they, they

absolutely invaluable because it takes
a lifetime to know a lot of these

things, actually multiple lifetimes
of information passed down as it

happened in, you know, wild people
and that's what you actually need.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So now I think we have an idea
about how to rewild the brain.

First, we've got to start
with the nervous system.

We have to change the environment a bit.

We have to change our nervous
system's way of being.

A little stress is not
a bad thing, physically.

And then we need to observe something.

Insects are good.

Then we need to, together with groups of
people, who are also observing, but as

you say, we need to create the journal.

I have not done this.

You know, I've written books,
but I haven't journaled.

I'm going to now.

I'm going to do a controlled experiment.

What it does seem to me is that
you've given us an actual step by

step formula for happiness here.

We now need to put it to the test.

I think we know what the results
will be, but I think it'd be very

interesting to put it to the test.

And there's a challenge for listeners.

I want a few of you to do this.

Do exactly what Craig said.

I'll do it with you.

I'm going to do it.

So maybe we'll get a little group,
maybe, which of us listening,

who's listening now, who wants to
join with me to create that group?

We can do it virtually.

We'll have to because let's, let's
use the technology to our benefit.

That doesn't mean we can't get together
sometimes physically but let's do this

stuff in journaling and see what happens.

Craig Foster: Such a great idea, Rupert,
and thank you so much for kind of guiding

this through in such an interesting way.

Well, thank you for guiding us, you
know, this is it strikes me the last

chapter in my book amphibious soul
does try and lay out What to do?

Mm hmm in a more detailed way and
obviously got to think about it a bit and

there is a Example of the tracking journal
a few pages in the middle of the book.

That is true.

And then I Also created a 27 part
short film series that goes with

the book and my, my, my way of, and
this is a very interesting thing.

And I think you might like this.

So what I try and do, if I've got enough
energy after every tracking session with.

My friends and team.

I create a little tracking report, so
if I've got a lot of energy I quickly

edit the still pictures and then I put
a voice on that and I put the stories

down and as you do that what happens
is curiosity questions everything

come up from the subconscious and
then you think oh what about that what

about that and the whole thing grows.

And then after a few years of doing
it with them, I challenged them to

start doing the tracking reports.

And the two or three guys who did it,
their tracking improved radically.

Because as soon as you do the report,
you're, you have to think about it

in a much more sort of profound way.

And that is such a fun thing.

And then you've always got that tracking
report to refer back to 10 years later

when you've forgotten a lot of that.

So you can do it in any way you like.

The sort of lazy way is just a string
of still pictures and then a voice.

Or you can write it out in a journal.

You can do it, you can
put the two together.

Some of them are even putting music
on them and making fancy graphics.

And we had a lot of fun with that.

But the ma They immediately got
it, like it was this language

that could be translated.

And it was, yeah, it's a pretty
satisfying thing to actually do.

But it's amazing how much you learn
when you actually do the tracking report

and try to also make a story of it.

You know, there's often this story
that is coming from the wild, so the

story of the day might be, you know,
One about reciprocity, or survival,

or mutualism, or whatever it is.

Rupert Isaacson: I'm
making notes as we go.

I'm going to do it.

And I'm going to do it for,

I want to do it for say, I think the
minimum period would be like three

months, because that's the season.

So we're heading into about
midwinter, so I could do midwinter

into spring, going to do that.

And the snow

Craig Foster: is awfully great for
the tracks, if you have frost or snow.

Rupert Isaacson: And as you say, how the
hell do those birds that I was looking

at outside my window stay alive in this
supposedly, so now I know a little bit

about what they're eating, but there'll
be a lot more that I don't know.

And how do

Craig Foster: they thermoregulate at
night, you know, all that kind of stuff.

It's really interesting.

Rupert Isaacson: And it's funny, even as
you ask these questions, I'm taken out

of myself, I'm taken out of my own head.

One feels immediately better.

Craig Foster: Interesting.

Yeah, exactly.

Empathy is tremendous when one
builds up with these creatures.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, and that's
sort of true empathy, really.

I think we often think about empathy
as being something that's specifically

human to human, and although that is
a great thing, it's left out, I think,

of that psychological conversation,
the empathy with the world around us.

Craig Foster: Sorry to interrupt, I
can't remember if we spoke about this

before, but this act of tracking, of
throwing the mind into the tracks is

tremendously empathic because you're
throwing your mind into the mind of that

animal and what it might be thinking.

Eventually, I think that's what
started the first, you know,

trance or out-of-body experience.

You keep doing that enough times
and suddenly you are inside that.

So it's this, this activity of tracking is
the fundamentals of so many of the major

cultural activities that we undergo today.

It's a, it's a really, it's a origin
of so much of our, our being, our

thinking and our our deep activities.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

And what's in it for us?

Happiness, mental health.

Craig Foster: Yeah.

Tremendous belonging to
just, that's the key.

It's like, okay, I belong in this place.

I feel like I'm part of this.

Exactly.

Tremendous sense of belonging,
security, and oneness.

Rupert Isaacson: Brilliant.

All right.

As always, I'm going to ask you in about
three months, will you come back on?

Because I want to go through this
journal, which I'm going to do, and I

want to track the mental health, but
also I want to pick up this conversation

about empathy and take it further.

Craig Foster: Thanks so much, Rupert.

Such a joy talking to you.

Rupert Isaacson: Always.

Always.

Always.

Here's a question to leave it with.

We empathize.

If we can learn to empathize
with, through tracking with.

The world around us

for this mental health benefit,
which is in our modern age.

So necessary.

I think we can assume that
our empathetic skills with our

fellow humans will be better.

But, and perhaps our care
for our environment, maybe.

But we empathize out

if we do that and we don't
have to answer this question.

I want to pose this question for.

The next conversation.

But listeners, I want
you to think about this.

If we throw our psyche into the
tracks, as Craig said, to the

tracks, does the natural world
throw its psyche back into us?

Are we being observed by the landscape?

And by the animals?

Obviously, the animals observe
us, but is even the landscape

is the wind of the trees?

Are we being observed as we
walk through the landscape and

track through the landscape?

Are we being tracked at the same time?

If that's true, how might the Our act of
empathy create an act of empathy back.

And what does that do?

Beautiful.

Beautiful.

Craig.

An honor.

Always.

Craig Foster: It was a
fascinating conversation.

Rupert Isaacson: I'm so lucky
to have you as a friend.

Really.

Seriously.

Who gets to have these conversations?

It's incredible.

It's such a delight.

Craig Foster: Yeah.

And I love the way
you're thinking about it.

And it would be really great if
some of the people take it up.

You know, I think this is what we need
to actually do, actually start something

like this and see what stories come back.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, I've got to do
it myself to lead from the front, right?

But, but as you know, we have all these
places around the world that are doing

what's called movement method, which is to
do with movement in the brain and nature.

And I'm always looking for
what, how do we make it better?

How can we, you know,
what more can we learn?

I think you've just given me.

An amazing thing to
bring into the program.

And I would love to be able to begin to
develop this a little bit down in South

Africa with you down in the kelp forest.

You know, we did not talk, Oh, this
is what we need to get back to you.

You talked about before
we switched on record.

It seems that certain
people on the spectrum.

The autism spectrum can hack
past these barriers with

literacy and the tamed brain.

And we got sidetracked
and we didn't go there.

And, of course, that's the exact
population I'm mostly working with.

And, as you know, when you're in,
say, the Kalahari and you're with

Healers, almost always they're
exhibiting these neuro psychiatric

symptoms of, say, autism and so on.

So can we pick that up a
little bit next time as well?

Brilliant.

Brilliant.

Okay.

Look forward to that.

Me too.

All right.

Thank you for joining us.

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