Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Live Free
Ride Free, where we talk to people who

have lived self-actualized lives on
their own terms, and find out how they

got there, what they do, how we can
get there, what we can learn from them.

How to live our best lives, find
our own definition of success,

and most importantly, find joy.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.

New York Times bestselling
author of the Horse Boy.

Founder of New Trails Learning
Systems and long ride home.com.

You can find details of all our programs
and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.

Welcome back to live free ride free.

Today we are going to Look behind the
scenes of the hollywood movies that

you've been watching over the decades
where Animals show up and do incredible

things and you take it for granted when
you're watching because you're just

into the story But of course, there's a
person often teams of people making sure

that that You Process with the animals.

works and that's not easy
because you don't just give

them a script and they follow.

Terry Keebler has spent a life
in this industry in Hollywood.

However she came to a realization partway
through her career that made her take

it in a radically different direction.

And I think if we want to define
self actualization you'll see

with Terry's story how that is.

A prime illustration.

So, and it sort of starts
a little bit with a lion.

But Terry, before we go and meet this
lion, can you just tell us a little bit

who you are and welcome to the show?

Terry Kuebler: Thank you.

Thank you.

I'm glad to be here.

Yes.

And, and, and I'm glad the way that
you're approaching that because most

people want to, you know, hear like,
well, what actors did you work with?

And what, what was, you know,
what got you into that field?

And my, my background, what got me
into that field was my love of animals.

I, I was always drawn to animals,
had horses my entire life.

I was, had moved down to the
Los Angeles area and feared, you

know, that I was going to hate it.

I moved down there when I met my husband
and was involved in the horse racing

industry, cause he was a harness driver.

So I thought, ah, I don't know
what I'm going to do in Los Angeles

and working through a wildlife.

Rescue.

I was introduced to the industry of,
of the Hollywood animal training.

And that was a fantastic fit for being
able to work with not only domestic

animals, but I ended up working with
a company who was a full zoo compound.

It had exotics and, and
I was able to work with.

Wolves and, and bears and the big cats and
so this was a fantastic fit for me because

it became about developing really strong
relationships with the animals because the

work required the ability to communicate
non verbally and from a distance.

So I had to learn how to project
safety to the animal, regardless

of what was going on around them.

And that just, that required a
deep connection, which really

spoke to who I am as a person and
my desire to be around animals.

In the

process of this, in the middle of my
career, so I was, I was pretty much

the normal mindset of, yes, I was
learning how to train from the animals.

And yet I was the trainer, I was the head
of the hierarchy, I was, you know, it was.

You do what I want and, and, and that
was my mindset and I tell the story

sometimes of, of working with the eagle
and, and I was training the eagle to fly.

Like, how, how, how ridiculous is that?

You know, what an eagle.

And, and, and but that was the mindset.

And so in the middle of all
of this, I had a near death

experience when I had my daughter.

I I had a number of aneurysms
and had a near death experience

that shifted my whole perception.

Of when I came back, really being a seeker
of of spiritual connection and having

a teacher show up, you know, I always
went with the when the students ready,

the teacher will appear and so I was.

Walking out in the woods one day and I was
begging for, you know, where's my teacher?

Well, I'm ready.

I'm ready.

I need a teacher.

I need, you know, someone to help me
connect these dots of why am I here?

Why did I come back?

All of it.

And in the middle of
that, I heard a voice.

Be quiet.

And I was like, well, you
know, my mind just went crazy.

What?

I need answers.

I need answers.

It was like, be quiet.

And as I got quiet, I realized I'm
walking with a 500 pound male lion.

I'm walking out in the
woods with him at my side.

And I looked down and he kind of
rolls his eyes up to me like, finally,

it was just this huge aha moment of
in the voice in my head said, I'm

sending you the best that I have.

So this revelation of, oh, my teacher
is standing right next to me, how,

you know, it was just this horrible
and like, oh my gosh, I'm so slow.

How could it be more obvious?

It's been a lion standing
right next to me.

And so, yeah, yeah, it was, it was,
you know, it's like, talk about a

board across the top of the head,
you know, like how dense are you?

So it the journey from there was of
course, the animals that I'm blessed

to be around are my spiritual gurus.

My spiritual teachers.

And then, you know, being able to
shift that perspective of being in awe

of who they were as sentient beings
and what they had to teach humanity.

So, shifting my entire perspective from
being the teacher to being the student.

And that changed everything
in my work as well.

It, you know, it, it just up
leveled my ability to Well, that was

Rupert Isaacson: going to be my question.

Was it then possible to get the
job done of showing up on set with

an animal and delivering a result
with this sudden new mindset?

Or did it make that, like,
suddenly not possible?

Terry Kuebler: No, no, it, it, it made
it extremely possible in the way that

now there was a bond of trust because
of the respect, because of the, you

know, I'm here for you and I, I'm
just, because, Even with the horses,

a question that always bothered me
was if you have a choice to do your

own thing or do what I want you to do,
how does that, you know, how is that a

choice that you're ever going to pick?

And the answer came back of, I'm an animal
who is kind of captured in your world.

And so if you have the ability
to set safe space for me.

I want to be with you all day long,
you know, because yeah, because I,

I, I'm in a cage or I'm bored or, or
I'm a horse in a stall or whatever.

I, I want to get out and experience the
world, but I want to feel safe doing it.

So, a bond of mutual respect.

Was formed and so anytime they got
worried or in a new environment They

were very dependent on me of okay.

You're my safety unit, you know,
you're who I feel safe around So

I'll do anything that you want
and enjoy it because I feel safe,

Rupert Isaacson: right?

I think that this is there's a lot of
questions I want to ask you about your

near death experience and how you How
anyone possibly walks around the woods

with a 500 pound lion and you just sort of
say these things off the car We're going

to have to return to them in a minute.

So don't worry listeners.

I'm gonna make a talk in
more detail about this.

But The, this is, I think, touching on
something which I thought we'd perhaps

get into later in this interview, which
is that well, this conversation, which

is that because I work with animals too,
I have noticed that animals like people

rather have a sense of purpose and are
usually actually very happy to marry

that sense of purpose with your sense
of purpose, provided you're listening

to their likes, dislikes, sensory needs,

going with the things
that they enjoy, right?

Just like you would with people.

And because this idea of consent,
you know, with animal, working

with animals comes up so much now.

And of course with domesticated
animals that are not wild.

They could go feral in some cases,
but actually they've been hardwired

to live with and deal with humans
for thousands of years, the species

that we tend to interact with.

A lion might be rather different actually,
but certainly horses, dogs, you know,

that sort of thing, domestic animals.

So I often find that the animals
will seek out adventures with me.

But as you say, I came from a
mindset of you must be the boss.

Because that was just the culture we
grew up in to a mindset of walk with

me, but in order to make you feel
safe, let me play the leader here,

because I do understand this monkey
world and I can make it safe for you.

If we were in horse world, I hope you
would do the same for me, you know, and

then I agree with you just sort of having
that attitude seems to make things go.

So much better, but I want to scale back.

Okay, first question.

How do you walk around the
woods with a 500 pounds.

I was in the woods this morning I
didn't see anyone walking around

with 500 pound lions And you know,
so how does one even do that?

Terry Kuebler: Well, that's, you know,
that was the wonderful part about the

industry is that you had such a rapport.

We would get the, like the
lion cubs when their eyes were

closed and bottle raised them.

And so you had a bond already.

And there was just a, a, a regular routine
of you, you'd put a, you know, like a,

a chain collar leash on them and take
them for walks so that they got exercise.

So it was like working
a horse or whatever.

You, you would take
them out and walk them.

Rupert Isaacson: The horse
isn't naturally your predator.

So would there not be a point in which
the big cat goes, actually, you know what?

I love you, but I am hungry.

Terry Kuebler: Yes, that there was
there was always that they were always

a lion and that dealing with the
public not understanding that was.

It's a very hard part of the job of
the public saying, well, obviously

it's a tame lion and you're with
it so I can walk up and pet it.

And that, that was one of the huge
energetic lessons that I got to

learn from lions was to be able to,
my body began to be able to sense

when their intent would change.

Because they would be walking along, da,
da, da, you know, hi, we're just, we're

just buddies here, and suddenly their
intention would go, you know what, I'm a,

you know, you're, you, you could be food.

And my body would respond
to that and feel it.

And I'd go, ah, don't go there.

And they go, Oh, okay.

She knows.

So it taught me, wow, there is
a physical response to intent.

And I need to know more about
that because I want to take that.

I want to take that back to horses of
what are they reading in my intentions?

that feels either safe
or predatory to them.

And so that, that was, it was
a, it was a wonderful learning

experience for me because I was
lower on the food chain than a lion.

And, and my body needed to, to relearn
how to read when their intention changed.

Rupert Isaacson: They just taught
me through a safety protocol.

When you go walking with a lion in
the woods, what Are you doing that

by yourself or do you always have a
second person or something like that?

Is there are there some sort of chains of?

safety that you sort of need to abide by.

So talk me through like
the nuts and bolts.

How do you go walk?

What do you do to stay safe
walking alone through the

Terry Kuebler: woods?

There always was a buddy system.

You never, you never were alone.

So you always had to have at
least two people with you.

So

Rupert Isaacson: when you had this
revelation and you were asking

mentally, there were a couple of
other humans around, but just not

involved in that conversation.

Terry Kuebler: Right.

That conversation was all in my head,

which happens quite often.

Rupert Isaacson: I know all about that.

I'm sure.

And when, when you had this revelation
with the lion and the lion sort of

became Aslan and looked at you in
that way, were the other two people

in any way aware of this, or was
this purely between you and the cat?

Terry Kuebler: No, the the other two
people You know, we're, we're just

paying attention to the environment
and, and, you know, they're, they're

there as a safety net for it.

Is there anything come any, any people
coming any, you know, anything we

have to watch out for and, and for me.

My entire attention is on
paying attention to the lion.

Rupert Isaacson: Right, because
you can't let your attention wander

if he suddenly decides to go.

So

Terry Kuebler: it's a practice
in being very, very present.

Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.

Terry Kuebler: Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: it must be.

Yeah.

Terry Kuebler: Yeah, you had to be because
the lion is waiting for you not to be

Rupert Isaacson: right.

Terry Kuebler: Even if he

Rupert Isaacson: likes you.

Terry Kuebler: Yes, I

Rupert Isaacson: saw it's not personal.

I'm just, you know, I just am a lion.

Yeah.

But thanks for all the milk bottles
that you gave me five years ago.

Yeah.

You

Terry Kuebler: could be lunch.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

When you had this switch in your.

relationship then with the animals
that you were working with on set?

Did this show outwardly in your
training techniques and then did that

bring questions or challenges from the
colleagues that you were working with?

Or was it sort of invisible to them?

Was it just like a private contract that
was between sort of you and God and you

and the animals in terms of intention,
but outwardly it sort of looked the same?

Terry Kuebler: I, I would
think I don't, I don't like to

disparage anyone or something.

It's just, it, it just, it changes
your level of where suddenly you

start to question techniques.

And, and, and the habitual thinking,
the habitual way of training where you

go, I'm not willing to do that anymore.

Rupert Isaacson: So what did
you, what did you stop doing?

And did that bring resistance?

Terry Kuebler: Well, I stopped being
of the hierarchy mindset of, of

being forceful, of you have no say
in doing what I'm asking you to do.

And so it was, it was, It changed my
training protocol to being more focused

on setting up a situation where the
animal wanted to participate, rather

than setting up a situation where if
you don't do this, you don't get fed.

And so you'll do when
you get hungry enough.

Okay.

You know, that, that type of training
and, and, and it was just, it was so much

more dependable in like onset situation
because if an animal were scared or were

hungry, they weren't going to do anything.

And so if you were dependent on that
for to get a certain set of behaviors.

And, and, and the animal reached.

Well, I'm not hungry anymore,
so I'm not going to do anything.

You were done, you know, and, and in
Hollywood, they, they did train that way

and that's why they depended so much on
so many lookalikes, we would have animals.

Multiple animals to
play one role because I

Rupert Isaacson: see because one animal

Terry Kuebler: said I'm not working today.

I'm not hungry

Rupert Isaacson: Got it

Terry Kuebler: You were screwed.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so you
had to have five lines instead

of one for the same, right?

Just okay,

Terry Kuebler: but if you had a lion
that was like I have a relationship

with you and I will do it to please you,
then you were way ahead of the game.

Rupert Isaacson: Got it.

Terry Kuebler: But for instance, I
had the lion that I had this epiphany

with that I had a relationship with.

There was one event on a set where
he got really upset with another

trainer and he was going to kill him.

He went after him with the intent
to take him out because he was

irritated with this trainer.

And I was able to jump in front of
the lion and get eye contact with

him and say, no, you may not do this.

stop.

And I was, he had two guys on lines
on the two big, huge muscle guys that

he was just dragging along with him.

They couldn't stop him.

He was going to take guy down.

And I jumped in front of him.

And because I had a relationship
with him, I went stop.

Rupert Isaacson: Am I allowed
to ask what movie that was?

I know you don't want
to just get into that.

Terry Kuebler: I, yeah, no.

I don't even, I really don't even
remember and it's funny because I was,

I do remember I was along on that.

I was not even considered a trainer
on that, on that set because.

The hierarchy on the sets was so
much, okay, we are working a big lion.

Therefore we, we must have
big, huge men trainers.

And so I, I volunteered to
go along to help out because.

because I had a rapport with
this lion, but I was the

Rupert Isaacson: lion being
required to do in that scene.

Terry Kuebler: Well, this was, he was
just walking from one scene to another.

He, they were just out walking him at that
point, but he became so irritated with

this trainer who kept teasing him, which,
you know, Why would you tease a lot?

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

So that was my next question.

What was going on with the teasing?

How, so describe to me
what the trainer was doing.

Terry Kuebler: Well, the trainer,
the trainer was actually going

up and, and harassing him.

And, and in what way

Rupert Isaacson: though, like
poking him with a needle, like

Terry Kuebler: grabbing, grabbing his
tail and, and, and coming up and, and

like pretend biting him in the butt,
you know, with his hand, you know,

like just going, and it was, Who knows?

It was very much, what
the heck are you doing?

Rupert Isaacson: Was he showing
off for somebody else or something?

Terry Kuebler: I guess he just
had an ego of, I have no idea.

Rupert Isaacson: Because presumably
this was a bloke who'd worked with

lions before and knew that doing
something like that might be unwise.

What do you think went through his head?

That he thought, well, this would
be a good idea to do this right now.

Terry Kuebler: No idea, because
it was so, like, unethical,

un Like, what are you doing?

Okay.

And can you not read that you
are pissing this lion off?

Why would you want to do that?

You know, so Yeah, it was just there were
some trainers in in the business who were

so Disconnected from reading the animal
that it was like, what are you thinking?

Did

Rupert Isaacson: trainers get taken
out from time to time because of this?

Terry Kuebler: Oh, yes, you hear about
it all the time Trainer being attacked,

you know, and and what happened?

Well, this was one of those this guy was
gonna get eaten, you know, so so it was

and it would have been the lion's fault

Rupert Isaacson: you know, it's it's
interesting you say that because of course

you and I share the horse world and i've
Owned and worked with a lot of stallions,

which as you know can be aggressive and so
on so I can't imagine ever doing anything

to sort of provoke that aggression because
right, you know You might have to deal

with it anyway at some point So I mean
the last thing you want to do is you know

Terry Kuebler: It's got to be an ego
thing because you have seen, I mean,

in your probably probably work in on
sets and stuff, how sometimes on a

horse, an actor will want to jack up
the horse so that he's rearing and mouth

open and they think that looks cool.

You know, like, look at this
animal that I'm working with.

mastering when you know but I can't
imagine like wanting to have a stallion

get aggressive unless it just looked cool

Rupert Isaacson: to them.

And I could see someone's ego who was
not uninformed doing that as an actor

sitting on the horse not knowing what
he's dealing with or an actor with

a lion not knowing what he's doing.

It's just interesting to me that a
trainer professional would do that.

And Go ahead.

Maybe

Terry Kuebler: even look, look how
dangerous my job, you know, to the

film crew and stuff, look, you know,
this is a dangerous animal I'm working

with and, and, you know, look at him
roar and, and, you know, this is a

really dominant position that I'm in.

So that's the only thing I think of.

Rupert Isaacson: What, you know,
we would on a full disclosure, the

listeners We Terry and I were together
recently on a, on a retreat in Italy.

And Terry, there's two stories you
shared with me that I want to share

with the listeners, if you would.

One speaks to this
business of when the cats.

intent turns.

And the other is when there was a
second encounter with a lion that was

perhaps even more let's say extreme.

So the first one, you were
walking with a leopard, I believe.

And you said that thing
about where you have to be.

Fully fully tuned in.

Can you tell us what
happened with that leopard?

It has to do with your arm.

Terry Kuebler: Oh Gosh Rupert,
you're making me tell all these

stories Recipes about strawberry

Rupert Isaacson: flan I suppose but yes

Terry Kuebler: Diving boards that get you
to change something But yes, this was, it

was, it was what you were talking about
is, what is the process of, of, you know,

going in and taking a leopard for a walk?

Well, leopards are known
for being amazingly fast.

They can, they can bounce off a wall
and go over your head and in the process

of going over, bite you five times.

You know, I mean, they're,
they're amazingly fast.

And this leopard, he, he was
Keisha was his name and I was

hooking the chain around his neck
and to take him out for a walk.

But I didn't have backup right there.

They hadn't come in the cage with me.

I didn't normally you would carry
like a bop or stick or something to

Wrap them on the nose if they did bite
down on you because when they're when

they're cubs and and you're training
them not to bite down too hard, you

take your fingers and across their nose.

Like, don't do that.

Don't bite down on me.

So, I had stuck that stick in my
mouth and was doing the chain up.

And he caught, I contact me to
be like, you're defenseless.

And just in that moment, he bit
down and he bit down seriously.

And I was lucky enough to
have multiple layers on.

I had you know, two jackets on and,
and a long sleeve shirt under that.

So he, I have a scar from it.

That's, that's, you know, that's,
it's not something that I'm proud of.

It's not something that I show off.

It's not a badge of honor.

It's a badge of dishonor of I
was not present and aware enough.

And he was.

And in that moment, he
took full advantage of it.

He's like, you screwed up.

Rupert Isaacson: How did that
not end up with an escalation

with you dead or severely mauled?

Terry Kuebler: I think again, because of
the rapport, he wasn't, His, his intent

was just in that moment of you screwed
up and, and now it's going to cost you.

And then the backup came in, you know,
because there was another person there.

They came in.

He, he released my arm.

So yeah, it could have, it
could have been much worse, but

there was another person there.

So it just, like I said,
it, it happens so fast.

Yeah.

It just an instant.

But in, in that instant for me,
time stops, you know, it's like, Oh,

and you see everything happening in
slow motion of, Oh, I screwed up.

Rupert Isaacson: If you have a particular
rapport with leopards, or with lions,

was there a particular animal that
you had a particular rapport with?

Terry Kuebler: I, well, with that
one lion I did, but I love tigers.

Tigers seemed the most social to me.

Now I, I know in the wild, it's it,
they say that they are solitary.

I don't believe it because they are
so even more social than lions are.

As far as wanting to play, wanting
to bond, wanting to you know, be

with someone, be in relationship
leopards are very, very solitary.

They would prefer to be left alone.

You know, they, they prefer a
solitary lifestyle, but then I guess

that's kind of like house cats.

Some of them are very social.

Some of them are not, you know, but,
but the leopards tended to be solitary.

The tigers were very,
very social, love to play.

And, and the lions were social,
but lazier than a tiger.

They, they love to just lay around
and, you know, sunbathe and hang

out, especially a big male lion.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, that brings me
to the other thing, the story that I,

I wanted to get you to talk about which
is, so you're at this point of trust.

You, you, you've got, you.

started to establish much
more rapport with the animals.

And there you are lying around,
indeed lying, actually lying around

with a lion and something happens.

And this story, when you told it
to me, made a big impression on me.

Can you take us through that?

What happened that day?

And again, what did you learn from that?

And, and, and the follow up process
of your colleagues, et cetera.

Terry Kuebler: Yeah, well, that was,
that was a transitional point for me of

it's time to get out of this business.

Because, and I don't like to go down the
negative side of it because You know,

the lessons in my life has progressed.

as it should.

But at that point, I was laying
out with the lion and I, I was,

he was laying across my lap.

Rupert Isaacson: Was this the
same lion that you talked about?

Terry Kuebler: Yeah, the same lion.

And, and he was socially grooming me.

You know, I, how a dog sometimes
will groom you as if you have

fleece, you know, with their teeth.

This lion was doing that on my leg.

He was socially grooming me.

And the head trainer came from over
the top of me with, with the wood

dowel and smacked that lion across
the nose for having his mouth on me.

And so the lion thought that
I had done it because we were

both kind of, you know, just.

relaxed and, and, and
hanging out together.

He jumped up and I'm still
laying in the prone position

on the ground underneath him.

He jumped up and was furious with me
for reprimanding him for being social.

And and, and that was kind of the
tipping point for me of the lack

of awareness in the humans around
me is going to get me killed.

So it's time to move on.

And that, it was, it was such a hard
choice in that you know, leaving, leaving

the industry, leaving the animals that I
had relationships with, you know, it was

like, well, who's, who's ever going to
have a rapport with these animals again?

Who's going to work with them?

Who's, so it was, it was hard to leave.

I would, in the horse world, it
would be like leaving a stable.

With horses that you worked with
and knew well because you didn't

get along with management in

Rupert Isaacson: so what did what did
what happened to persuade that line

that as furious as he was, he just
got whacked across the nose with a

wooden, heavy wooden thing when he
was just trying to show you love.

Why did he not kill you?

What happened to prevent
him from doing that?

Terry Kuebler: Well, the, the,
the head trainer was there.

To, to, you know, back him off he, but the
lion never, it destroyed our relationship.

He never,

Rupert Isaacson: what I was going to
say, the lion couldn't get over that.

He couldn't say, okay, that wasn't you.

Terry Kuebler: He never trusted me again.

He never, and that broke my heart.

It was part of the, it's time
to go, you know, because.

Now, I don't have this
relationship anymore.

It's just been destroyed and so it
goes back to being dangerous, right?

For me, because I didn't have
the respect of the head trainers.

because they didn't realize
the value of a relationship.

You know, they were still in
the old mindset of training.

And what year

Rupert Isaacson: was

Terry Kuebler: that?

I would say it was probably
Early 2000s, like 2000.

Rupert Isaacson: Relatively recently.

Would you say that training
methods and approaches have

changed radically since then?

Would you say it's still more
or less as it was when you left?

Terry Kuebler: I would venture
to say since I'm not involved

in it, it's hard to tell.

I would hope that there are
different levels of people

just like in the horse world.

I would I would say it's probably still

a trainer mindset.

Because, because the, the horse
world is just evolving the dog

world, I would think is still pretty
much, you know, a trainer mindset.

So I would assume that Hollywood was
also because it was so ego based.

It was so, a director even want
to talk to a female trainer.

They would

Rupert Isaacson: ask

Terry Kuebler: the actor
how to get the animal to do

something rather than asking me,

Rupert Isaacson: you know, it's
a really interesting point that

because I, as you know, spent
some years working on movie sets.

When I was in college, I was
mostly riding horses on them.

And I remember being really.

I don't know, shocked is not the word
because I was at a military school so

I was used to military hierarchies,
but I found it curious, I think, that

there was this desire for hierarchy
on movie sets that people seem to

actively want to ape the military.

While not being military, and I've worked
in other creative environments like in

the theater and in the opera, actually,
that little bit as a boy, and although

you do have to have a chain of command and
things have to happen, and sure, you've

got a lot of teams need to be organized
and things must go right for the show.

Yes, yes, yes.

But there was much more of a sense of
team play, I felt, in theatre and opera.

And when I got on movie sets, it was
like, everyone was just an arsehole.

And, but like, but like, really
kind of enthusiastically putting

effort into this arseholdom.

So that, you know, the, the, the,
and everyone was sort of busy.

Dissing everybody else.

So, you know, we were effectively
extras, even though we were special

action extras, because we were riding
the horses in complex situations.

And so we fell into this.

bit where they didn't have to pay us as
much as they'd have to pay a stuntman,

but they'd have to pay us more than,
you know, so special skills, right?

You were

Terry Kuebler: classified as a stuntman,
which had, you know, some, some people

Rupert Isaacson: to it.

They called us.

Yeah.

And, and so, you know,
if you, if you see okay.

For the, for the people listening, who
wants to know about film scenes, okay.

If you've ever seen the film, Willow
this is actually, typifies this mindset

that there's a fantasy film called Willow
from the 80s, which a lot of people

still follow in a bit of a cult way.

When that film opens, there's a
princess being chased through the

woods and she's being chased through
the woods by two baddies in armor

with these two death dogs, which are
actually Rottweilers with latex suits

on them, pursuing her through Epping
Forest, which is just outside Lampin.

And one of those baddies was me.

I'm in every riding scene in that movie.

I was aged about 20.

And exactly as you say, the dogs
had to be called by a trainer to run

across this section of forest with us.

cantering behind them
as if we were hunting.

But of course, because of the latex suits
that the dogs were wearing they got a bit

confused and we had to retake and retake.

And then eventually, for some strange
reason, one of the dogs turned and went

the wrong way and ran under the horse's
hooves of my co guy, my co baddie.

And the dog wasn't actually hurt,
not because he's also wearing

a big piece of latex, but, you
know, it wasn't a good thing.

And then immediately, You had the
dog handler who was like this big,

shaven headed, tattooed sort of
London, way on tall like that, yeah.

Very aggressive.

I've rottweilers, yeah.

And the horse master, who was
this same equivalent Greg Pauk.

Huge dude.

Kept coming out of a sort of, you know,
somewhat criminally associated families,

a lot of them do lot, you know, all that
money, lots of flash, lots of power.

And they kind of went at it in front of
us violently while we're just sitting

on our horses waiting for, and the
directors, cause they love this stuff.

And then the, the, you know, director
to the first assistant director to the

second assistant, they wouldn't talk
to each other and they'd be so yeah.

And there was sort of who
you could sit next to if you

couldn't sit next to when you.

And you had to like demonstrate respect
and you had to kiss ass and it was

really, really interesting to me.

There

Terry Kuebler: was a hierarchy
of who you could talk to, right?

Who you could kiss.

You had to do it in a hierarchy.

Rupert Isaacson: Yes, it's like, oh,
I'm not allowed to kiss your ass.

Because you're actually too
high for my lips, right?

Got it.

Yeah,

Terry Kuebler: you're not
supposed to even talk to me.

But yes, you're God.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, it's bizarre.

So, so I could see how
that would filter down.

I didn't work around exotics.

So all my things were just
basically based around horses.

You might occasionally see someone
over there with an elephant or

something, but generally there
wouldn't be much, you know how it is.

There wouldn't be much
communication on a movie set.

You go, you do your job and you leave.

So, but what's interesting to me is that

this world that we're trying to
create art and wonder, right?

That's the, that's what a movie is.

We're trying to create.

a journey into the imagination
and often a journey through the

heart and something inspirational.

But in fact, they're often being produced.

by people who are being so
actively unpleasant to each other.

So enthusiastically
unpleasant to each other.

That it's interesting that
that doesn't come across more,

you know, in the, in things.

So

Terry Kuebler: what I found really
interesting was that it, it did come

through, like if working a dog, for
instance, If the dog did not like the

actor because they were an asshole
That does come through on camera.

Okay, you know makes our job much harder
in that We were supposed to make it

look like these were best friends And
it was Extremely obvious, you know,

from the body language of the dog.

I don't want to be anywhere
near this person because they're

radiating, you know, ego.

And that, that made it
difficult to work animals with.

Because it did come across through the
camera, I think, as far as the dog's

feelings towards the person or whatever.

Rupert Isaacson: That's funny.

Terry Kuebler: That made
the job a lot harder.

Rupert Isaacson: So they just have
to keep retaking until they got the

things that looked somewhat usable.

Terry Kuebler: Somewhat usable.

Yes.

Yes.

And it did.

It made it much tougher.

Rupert Isaacson: So, so, okay.

Right at the beginning of
this conversation you talked

about near death experience.

So it, it sounds like you were sort of
trucking along in the normal trainer

mindset because after all, that's
the, you know, the, the culture you,

we all, we all start from somewhere.

And then what really changed
for you before these incidents

with two incidents with the lion
and The leopard and so forth.

Was these near death experiences tied
up around aneurysms and your daughter.

Can you please talk a
little bit more about that?

Because again, a lot of listeners I
think will have had similar experiences.

What happened to you?

And what did you experience during that?

During that?

Perhaps more than one near death
experience that seems to have

kicked you into another sphere?

Terry Kuebler: Yeah, I My daughter
was born in 87, and so, I, I

started to have difficulty.

I started going through strokes,
aneurysms prior to, and so there

were, there never really was a A point
where you know, I was in the hospital

and the doctor said, Oh, you know,
you flatlined or anything like that.

But, but I had the experience
of leaving this planet going

to a very, very bright portal.

And standing and almost looking
through this portal, and

there were beings behind me.

So, so my guides and all I remember
hearing was, do you feel complete?

And, and I, I said, no, you
know, I just had a daughter.

I, I've got to go back and,
and be her mom and everything.

And, and it was pretty
much that brief of boom.

I was back in my body.

But the realization of how much choice we
have in our lives of, of directing our own

experience, because that question being
posed of, it's up to you of whether you

want to cross over or go back and it was
like, oh, no, I'm not, I'm not done yet.

I'm not ready to.

And so it was okay.

And, and that was huge to
me of understanding that

we have a lot of choice.

In designing our own life and in you
know, picking the path that we take.

So when I came back, it almost felt
as if I had a foot in both planes.

For quite a while, and for the seeking
part of, of, okay, who, who's going to

teach me how to navigate this and how
to make the right choices and, and, you

know, how to live the rest of my life.

Now, knowing that there is an
afterlife and that we are here

to to accomplish something.

What am I here to accomplish?

Other than the simple answer was you said
you wanted to be your mother's daughter.

I mean, your, your daughter's mother.

So, you know, would it be okay if that was
it, if that was, you know, but learning

how to be a mentor and, and if we go
back to the, the conversation of, of

learning from the lion about intention
and how to feel that, it's, it's, it's

The journey really takes me if, if
you want to go now to the future,

I mean, me now, my quest now in
life, my, my driving force is

a lot of our beliefs are what have shut us
down as far as our spiritual connections.

I think intuition and.

Being connected to different levels
of consciousness is hardwired into us

and if you take the belief that the
scientific premise of our electrons

can operate either as, as waves or as

Rupert Isaacson: particles.

Yeah.

Terry Kuebler: I believe humans senses
operate in the same way where if you

believe that you're separate and, and
when everything changed to separate

state and church and to separate,
we are not part of nature and we're,

we're separate, we're separate, we're
separate that belief system shut down.

Every part of our senses that operates
on the wave length, and I, that's, that's

intuition, that's spirituality, that's,
you know, so if you're operating just on

a physical realm of getting information
from just what is physically measurable,

we've shut down two thirds of our
ability to receive information.

Information.

And when you start going down this rabbit
hole of, of connecting with animals,

it took me to connecting to myself, you
know, being present, being aware of my

internal world, and how my mind affected
my body language, my energy fields.

So, then the fascination with biofields
and communicating with animals, non

verbally, non physically and then that
will take you to the connection of

once you start feeling that connection
with with animals and biofields.

Their awareness of you being
connected is right there.

So it's like, oh, wow, you know, not
only do we have the capacity to be aware

of this, but animals are already there.

When you get there, it's kind of like
the, oh, hello, here you are, finally.

Now you're part of this
environmental sphere of awareness.

And that's a completely different level
of consciousness that we have access

to that kind of information then.

And from there, it goes to
planetary consciousness from

planetary consciousness.

It goes to a universal and cosmos.

And then the, and then the
super, you know, the, the

field, the zero point field.

So there are layers of awareness
and consciousness layers.

that we've just shut down
through our belief system.

Now, that was a huge rant.

I'm sorry, but that's where
this journey has taken me and

it's all because of the animals.

Now,

Rupert Isaacson: okay, I want,
I want to go to where you went

to after leaving Hollywood.

And how that's brought you
to that conscious universe.

I wouldn't say I Idea.

Idea.

'cause I don't think it's an idea.

I think it's a reality.

And I'll go into that a little
bit, but say realization.

But let, I just want to go back
to when you had the aneurysm.

Did you know you were having an aneurysm?

Like when it happened to you,
like, oh my gosh, this is an

aneurysm, and what did it feel like?

Terry Kuebler: Yeah, I, I wouldn't
say at that point I knew it was.

an aneurysm, I knew that it
was a stroke of some kind.

I I actually, and this is what happened.

Rupert Isaacson: What were you doing?

And what did it physically?

Actually, it

Terry Kuebler: happened when I
was 18 years old, it happened.

I was at college one day,
and I lost half of my vision.

And, and my ability to speak and
everything, and I thought, whoa, what,

what is, what, somebody put something in
my coffee or something, what is going on?

And and then it cleared up, and being
18, it was like, whoa, that was weird,

but the intuition Cleared up within

Rupert Isaacson: hours,
cleared up within days.

Terry Kuebler: Within, within hours,
it cleared up and then later that

night, I had a horrific headache.

But then by the next
day, everything was gone.

So nothing ever happened of that
other than a few years later, I

was reading a book and it happened
to be a Sydney Sheldon book.

And it talked about a girl
having an aneurysm in the story.

And I went, wow, that's
what happened to me.

This sounds really familiar and then
in the story, she had difficulty during

childbirth and, and had another aneurysm
because of the hormones and stuff and

I went, wow, I better investigate this.

I may have difficulty during childbirth.

So I started investigating.

hormonal differences and imbalances
and aneurysms and things like that.

And I went in, when I got pregnant,
I went in arguing with my doctors,

I'm going to have some problems.

because I've had this history.

And it was a fight.

They were like, no, no, you're fine.

You're just scared.

You know, you're just,
you're just being silly.

And I fought and I fought because my
intuition was like, no, this is real.

I'm going to have problems and
I need to have a C section.

So I fought for that.

And finally, the doctors went in and did
CAT scans and stuff and they said, by

golly, you do have some scar tissue there.

You did have some kind of
episode, but you'll be fine.

We're not worried about it.

I said, I'm worried.

So I fought again and I ended up,
I did have a scheduled C section,

but I started having aneurysms.

prior to that.

So I had to go in.

My daughter was taken a
month early, but these

Rupert Isaacson:
aneurysms cause blackouts.

They cause you fainted and fell over.

What

Terry Kuebler: happened?

Because of the location was
in the left side of my brain.

So the right side of
my body would go numb.

I would lose feeling in
the right side of my body.

I would lose the ability to speak.

I would lose You know, cognitive
abilities, but mostly speech and the

right side of my body, which I'm and then

Rupert Isaacson: each time it
cleared up sort of within hours.

So did they take gradually
longer and longer to clear up?

Terry Kuebler: Well, at at 1 point,
and this was when I was, eight

months pregnant at one point.

I started having these symptoms
and I'm trying to communicate

to my husband I'm in distress.

I'm having some problems and so he
called the doctors that Obviously I had

been arguing with and and had gotten on
board as far as i'm going to have some

problems And they they said get her in
here right now get her into the hospital.

We we've got to You
Take the baby right now.

She's, she's having a stroke.

The fact now that it is that there was no,
they, they say I should have paralysis.

I should have, I should have
had long term effects from this.

But why do you

Rupert Isaacson: think you didn't

Terry Kuebler: my near
death experience my choice?

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, and have you
had an aneurysm since so interesting

Terry Kuebler: and I but I haven't
had I Decided one child was all I was

Rupert Isaacson: Right, what
are the hormonal imbalances

that bring on the aneurysms?

I didn't I didn't know that there
was a connection between hormones?

Yeah, it

Terry Kuebler: was in back then in,
in whatever that was that the 80s or

whatever, when they would put someone
on, on the pill or on estrogen patches,

they were so they were one size fits all.

And it was, it was way too strong for
me and, and caused hormonal imbalances.

Rupert Isaacson: So estrogen,
too much estrogen can lead to

Terry Kuebler: Valuerisms?

Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: I did not know that.

Terry Kuebler: See, and, and, and
maybe doctors would not agree.

It was amazing to me how much I
had to argue on my own behalf.

And then after I went through it all,
the nurse in the elevator says, I'm so

glad that you stuck to your guns, because
my job is to take care of the infants

when the mother dies on the floor.

table.

And I went, what?

I said, do you mean this happens often?

She goes, you have no idea.

And I said, then why did,
did I have to fight so hard?

And she said, well, it's still a
male dominated field and we don't

know anything about hormones.

Rupert Isaacson: Do you think there's
lots of women out there who've suffered

aneurysms because of going on the pill?

Terry Kuebler: Yes, I do.

I think it's a big thing.

Rupert Isaacson: Wow.

Wow.

Okay.

Yeah.

I had no idea.

I knew about other risks, you
know, cancer risks and so on.

You know, it's so interesting that
something which was in some ways a

great tool for feminism, because it
also was, it did, it did liberate.

Couple of generations of women to go out
into the workplace and get out from under

at least accidental child, you
know Pregnancies and so on.

So it was of course hailed as a liberating
force the bill But I did not and then

of course now we subsequently realized
that there were risks of cancer and so

forth But I didn't realize that there was
a similar risk with is it is it is it?

Is the

overproduction of estrogen linked with
weakening of general vein or blood

vessel walls, or only in the brain?

Terry Kuebler: I don't know if,
you know, the question is, is, Was

there a weakness there to start
with that the hormonal fluctuations

you know, caused an imbalance?

Because I, I struggled, you know,
in puberty, I struggled through

massive cramps and I, so I was
hormonally out of whack anyway.

So was, was the, was there
weakness there to start with?

That's it.

Was I just hormonally imbalanced?

It would be, it would be interesting to
know, you know, what were my readings?

What were my levels back as a teenager?

You know, what are they now?

But the fact that a lot of women going
through childbirth, they with the,

the spikes in estrogen, because when I
started having the seizures or whatever

was because at the end of pregnancy,
your, your, your hormones spike,

you know, so, so, so consequently,
I was like, wow, I'm going to have

difficulty going through menopause.

So, so I went on bioidentical hormones.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

And but that is not created.

I have my

Terry Kuebler: own intuition saying I
need to keep myself at a certain level.

Okay.

Because I obviously have issues,
you know, vein weaknesses or

whatever to large hormonal spikes.

Rupert Isaacson: And what's really
interesting, I didn't realize

that there is a vein weakness.

Hormonal spike connection
and like, what is that?

Is that causing just, I'm,
I'm, I'm, I'm wondering a lot.

Is it causing weaknesses in the
stem cells that then becomes the

cells that of the blood vessel wall.

So they arrive weakened because
of some hormonal imbalances.

Is it that?

So I'm going to go off and
do some research because.

Terry Kuebler: Yeah.

Well, what was interesting is after
the whole childbirth, I had a, a, a.

Neurosurgeon come came in and and and I
just had my daughter and, you know, my

near death experience and everything.

And he came in and he says,
you have a tumor in your brain.

We're going to we have you
scheduled for surgery for tomorrow.

And I went, no, no, it's not a tumor

because I knew.

I mean, I, I had already
been fighting for this.

I'm gonna have, you know, and
that I had this earlier episode

and, and he was so furious with
me for refusing to do the surgery.

You know, he was just beside himself.

Like, you can't say no.

It's like, oh yes, I can , I'm walking
out of this hospital because I know

that if you go in for surgery, I'm
not walking out of this hospital.

And he said, yeah, well, it's very likely.

You probably won't be able to talk.

You probably won't have use of
your right side, but that's okay.

We'll save your life.

And I said, no, no, you're not.

I'm going home.

So, and, and then later the neurologist
said, I could lose my job for telling

you that you're, you're right.

You have the ability to wait
and watch this and monitor it.

If it goes down, it was blood leakage.

If it gets larger, it's a tumor.

So we can wait and see.

And, and it ended up, you
know, dissipating, so.

Rupert Isaacson: Why
would he lose his job?

So my intuition is Or giving you a
life saving professional opinion?

Terry Kuebler: Because he, because of
that hierarchy, he Again, it comes down

Rupert Isaacson: to
hierarchies, doesn't it?

Yeah,

Terry Kuebler: but the surgeon
was above him, and they are not

allowed to to have any other opinion
than the hierarchy's opinion.

Rupert Isaacson: So interesting, you
know, that the hierarchy's on the movie

sets, the hierarchy's in the hospitals.

Yeah.

Terry Kuebler: And Rupert, we can't,
you can't release this podcast

because we're going to get burned.

Rupert Isaacson: Well,
we're not naming names.

We're just recounting, you
know, vague anecdotal any

hospital has been named here.

But all right.

So look, you, you, you,
you, you fight to be heard.

And then you do get a handle on what's
going on with you hormonally, but then

you have the spike with your daughter.

So that brings you to a near death
experience that then brings you into

a much greater relationship with the
animals, which of course makes you a

better professional until there you
are with the lion who's grooming you,

which I must say, if I saw someone
with a lion nuzzling on someone

with their teeth, I, of course,
wouldn't be able to interpret that.

But I suppose you'd watch for
a while and say, well, Is that

lion drawing blood or not?

So, clearly, you were in a relationship
with this lion and then someone comes

along, again, in the hierarchy of
your animal trains and messes that up.

And now you decide to leave Hollywood.

What do you then go off and do?

Terry Kuebler: Well, we ended up
my husband, racing by then was,

suffering in Southern California.

So, so we would transition
from Sacramento, which was

my hometown to Los Angeles.

We would come up here every summer.

Well, the racing ended up
Sacramento ended up having more

dates up here than in Los Angeles.

So we moved to the foothill
area of Sacramento.

So we moved out of LA.

Rupert Isaacson: And what did you do?

Okay.

He's still professionally
in the But what do you

Terry Kuebler: do?

I, I, I tried to, because my
brother David, who you've met, had

the advertising agency, I tried to
do film work in Sacramento area.

It just, It didn't compare to the industry
in Los Angeles, the money wasn't there,

the, the education wasn't there of, of
what was required to train an animal.

So, so I, I went back and forth with
that for a while and, and then in the

process would do private training for,
for horse lessons and, and for people

with problem horses, problem dogs.

So I went, I became a specialist
in, as a problem solver.

And, and what I learned through that
was, wow, you know, I, I, it's, it's

the people who need the education.

It's the people who need to change.

And how do I people don't
necessarily want to hear that is

like, your dog is not a problem.

You are

like, okay, how do you
how do you navigate that?

Because I loved the whole thing
with the Hollywood industry was.

I loved working 1 on 1 with
animals without having to

deal with the general public.

In private training, it was.

Okay, somehow I need
to educate this person.

So I need to become a person trainer
as much as an animal trainer.

And through working with animals
and through communicating to the

people there's this, this, this.

Animal is not a problem.

There's a behavior that you don't like.

So there's a behavior that's a problem,
but the animal is a good animal.

And I thought, wow, I would love
to have that mindset with people.

I want to view people with the same
open heart that I view animals.

How do I do that?

And so I went into a coaching program.

And that it was.

Another spiritual elevation for me of
viewing people in the same way that

I viewed animals of, you know, there
may be behaviors that this person is.

Projecting or whatever that
that are serving it in some way,

but the person is a good person.

They have qualities that
I love and appreciate.

And so after the coaching program,
I just, I learned to love people

as much as I loved animals.

And so again, my work evolved,
because now I could mentor and coach

people along with their animals.

So it evolved into almost like a marriage
counselor or a relationship counselor

between the animal and their person.

And it was what you need to
change in you in order to make

this work for this animal.

Rupert Isaacson: Now, the human
ego makes that a tricky process.

How did you find yourself able
to Get people to open up to this

kind of approach, because it
makes them look at themselves too.

Well, that's

Terry Kuebler: a gift I think that
the animals bring, because people are

willing to change for their animals.

Rupert Isaacson: You know,
you're right, they are.

It's true, they're more willing
to change for their animals

than they are for other people.

It's so true.

And

Terry Kuebler: I, I take that
to myself of the, I would take

Rupert Isaacson: that to myself to change

Terry Kuebler: and, and, and people is
so, you know, working with people or

what they would do whatever it took.

And, and, and I did end
up being a last resort.

You know, you are my last resort because
this horse is going to have to be put down

or this dog is going to, you know, be put
down or whatever you are my last resort.

And so their last resort is
I'm willing to do anything.

What do I need to do?

And then they were in the right
mindset to to change themselves.

Rupert Isaacson: So interesting.

So can you give us a couple of examples
of some really fundamental like sea change

changes that some, that you saw
someone put themselves through in

order to get better with their animal?

Terry Kuebler: Well, I think the
most fundamental change for most

people is, is their focus on, on,
and, and this dives into the self

awareness of what do you want?

What, what is it that you want to happen?

Because I couldn't for a while.

I couldn't figure out where,
why I would do something.

And then the person watching me would
imitate me and the animal would look at

me like, what, what did they just say?

And I thought, what's the difference.

And the difference was my mental
imagery was on what I wanted to happen.

Like, if, say, if a person was struggling
with a horse, and I go, stop, what is

it that you want, and they go, I just
want this horse to stop pulling on me,

I want it to stop throwing its head, I
want it, it's like, no, that's what you

don't want, what is it that you want,
and they go, They would have trouble

coming up with it, you know, the pictures
mentally, what does it look like?

What do you, what are you asking?

And they go, I just want my
hair, my horse to drop his head.

I want him to relax.

I want to, and the horse would
sigh and do it immediately.

Why didn't you tell
me, you know, and, and.

And the person's face would just
go, Oh, my God, did I just do that?

And you go, Well, what do you think?

So, teaching a person to visualize and
focus on what it was that they wanted to

happen was huge to the animal because the
animal would respond to it immediately.

And that was a huge aha moment
for the person to go, Oh,

what am I normally picturing?

What am I normally focused on and
they 90 percent of the time are

focused on the problem and how
to fix it, which is a completely

different mindset and energy than the
solution and what that looks like.

Yeah.

Yeah.

When you go to the solution
and what that looks like, the

animal goes, Oh, very clear.

Done.

Right there with you.

Rupert Isaacson: A lot of people
who are listening to this are dog

owners, not, not just horsey people.

I'm intrigued by what, because horses,
people tend to own and ride and then go

away, but a dog you live with 24 seven.

What would, what can you give
us an example of a fundamental

personality change that you
saw someone allow themselves to

go through on behalf of a dog?

Terry Kuebler: Well, again, for
instance, the timing and the

pictures of focusing on the problem.

For instance, My dog won't come
to me and, and the person is going

so that I can hit you because I'm
so scared and I'm so mad that you,

that you are running away from me.

Don't run across that street.

Don't run away.

Don't is what they're picturing
and their entire energy gets.

aggressive and scared because
of all of the things that

they're picturing happening.

Rather than them picturing, come
over here so that I can hug you

because I love being with you.

That's completely different
energy than, you know, kind of.

Have you seen

Rupert Isaacson: someone
actually able to put that anger

and fear down in that moment?

Or is it more, you coach
them to that moment?

Because when someone is flooded
with cortisol, you know, they

usually can't change what they're
doing in that moment, right?

Terry Kuebler: No, but they can,
they can be coached through it.

Try this instead, you know,
try, what are you picturing?

What are you?

So, so it goes into this self evaluation.

That's why for me that the self
awareness is such a big piece.

And from Candice Carradine and the
HeartMath Institute, now we know all

about the coherency between what the
heart wants and what the brain is doing.

Worrying about right that when the brain
is focused on all the negative things

that could happen and the fear your
entire nervous system changes, your entire

energy changes, your chemistry changes,
the animals are aware of all of that, and

it confuses them because it's chaotic,
you know, it's, it's It's not coherent.

So the messages are, are very
confusing and chaotic because

the animal is receiving the
information in an energetic way.

Rupert Isaacson: That makes sense.

Emotional, i.

e.

energetic.

Yes.

Terry Kuebler: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Alright, so now you're, you're,
you've moved to coaching

human animal partnerships.

Privately there in Sacramento.

Where does it go from there

Terry Kuebler: from there?

It goes.

It just keeps going farther down the
end because I get to learn as much.

So I'm continually a student.

Which I love, I get to learn as
much from every different scenario

and every different aha moment that
people have because the animals

are just so responsive to it.

And it's, it, it takes me
to what, what's that about?

What is it that they're picking up on?

So it went to, I love now doing
self empowerment retreats.

Because, like I said, I've gone
to the place of, wow, animals are

teaching me that intuition and
channeling and information comes

through these fields of awareness.

And we have the capacity to
environmentally be of this

earth rather than on this earth.

So, this new fascination with
people wanting to re engage with

nature is a perfect fit for me.

It fascinates me that people are
starting to realize we've become

so disconnected, so in our heads.

That it's a health hazard to us and to the
planet, that how do we get back in sync?

So the, the whole study of,
of entanglement and, you know,

where science is going is just
absolutely fascinating to me.

And to get to play with that, with
animals as, as, As co teachers in a

retreat setting, what could be better?

Rupert Isaacson: Okay,
so talk me through it.

If I come on one of your retreats,
if one of the listeners comes on your

retreats, and by the way, listeners, I
would encourage you to, because I was

on a retreat with Terry in Italy and
It couldn't have been more delightful.

I'm going to go into some
of the revelations that you

brought through in a moment.

But what would you do when somebody
arrives and says, yes, Terry, I would

like to have this experience with you
where you can now begin to connect

me to more of this meta field beyond
just, you know, An individual animal

to animals to nature itself to, you
know, Oh, I'm looking at the fox going

past my window in the middle of London.

Wow.

Yes, yes, yes.

Okay.

Terry Kuebler: See how that lights you up.

Why does that light you up, Rupert?

It's

Rupert Isaacson: nature right there.

And the two wood pigeons
that were down in the garden.

Oh, and now the fox has
gone up on the roof.

Rupert.

of my mother's studio.

How wonderful.

A quick a quick aside.

I'm in London right now.

I live normally in Germany, but I'm in
London right now because my mother's

She's gone in for a back operation, so
I'm here sort of in back up, and her

studio, I'm watching the fox go up the
roof, her studio has a, in the middle

of London, it's really middle middle,
has a family of foxes living behind it,

who've taken to coming up from the roof,
and I've been waking up every morning,

sleeping in the studio, to the foxes
scrabbling on the skylight, because

I think it's warm up there, and then
playing with each other, there's a whole

family of them, and they're playing
on the skylight, and I've been taking

pictures of them from underneath, they
have no idea that I'm there, and I've

Terry Kuebler: They have
no idea you're there.

How fun is that?

Rupert Isaacson: It's extraordinary.

Terry Kuebler: It's

Rupert Isaacson: extraordinary.

So Terry, when one of us wants to come on
a retreat with you, are you pairing us up

with animals that you've got or are you.

Working with animals on a
sort of more symbolic way.

Well, how, how, how's a retreat work?

And what do you do?

What do you show us?

Terry Kuebler: So, a lot of
times it has been horse women.

And I, I don't relegate it to women.

It just seems like, you know, horse
functions seem to be 90 percent women.

So a lot of times it's women
that come with their horses.

That want to form a deeper connection
with their horse, but we do it through

the horses facilitating play and a
lot of, a lot of that happens because

this is the first initiation that
people have to their mindset, actually

affecting their field of energy.

So we talk about, you
know, the fields of energy.

Well, a retreat situation is really
reconnecting with, with nature.

So there's interaction with animals, be
it horses or just out in nature itself,

I love to go places like Yellowstone,
you know, in, in the United States

where there's a lot of wildlife.

So it can be just while sitting out and
observing and journaling in, in wildlife.

It's drumming, some journey
work, so teaching people how

to journey and get answers from
their own intuition and guidance.

A lot of variety, I, I, I kind of,
design the retreat according to the

group that I'm putting it together for,
you know, whether it be horse people or,

or women's empowerment or leadership.

retreats.

So, so what do you want to do, Rupert?

What if, what are we
doing at Castle Leslie?

That's what I want to know.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, I'm gonna talk
to, okay, yes, and actually Okay.

So listeners, Terry and I are going to be
doing some retreats together and Castle

Lesley is an amazing place in Ireland.

And if you have listened to Sammy
Lesley's podcast here on Live Free,

Write Free, she's the person who owns,
runs and conceived Castle Lesley, which

is extraordinary place in Ireland.

It's like going to, to Narnia.

Please do join us on one of these.

I'm going to talk a little bit
about some things you told me.

when we were on the retreat in Italy
and that I found very intriguing

that I think listeners would as well.

So if you remember Terry, we were sitting
talking and you were saying, you know,

you, you had been doing a lot with
horses and as you were getting further

and further into looking through the
lens of the heart, looking through the

lens of the spirit, trying to be less of
a particle, more of a wave, all of the

things that you've been talking about,
entanglement, that at a certain point

you, you said you were starting to get
messages from horses saying, you know,

we've been holding up the change, the,
a lot of the change in sort of Western

humanity for the last 30, 40 years.

And we're getting to the point
where our work may be done and

now other species are taking over.

And I found that really intriguing because
I thought, well, yes, actually, in the

sort of 40 years I've been involved in the
horse industry, I have seen that shift.

It's not that you don't still have people
who rigidly adhere to the old school,

but more and more and more, even at
the top of the sort of sport industry,

one sees a softening, one sees or at
least more people moving that way.

Even if there's resistance than
than than there ever was and

I think in the horse industry,
things are actually quite positive.

They're going in a positive way.

Let's say so when you said that
to me, it's like, well, yeah, I

sort of have seen that parallel.

And then you said to me, so now I said,
what is anyone else speaking to you?

And you said to me,
yes, Rupert, the whales.

And I registered my own reaction,
and there were two Ruperts there.

There was an older Rupert that, I
mean, I'm quite old Rupert now anyway,

so yeah, but an older, older Rupert I
could recognize from a younger self,

automatically putting on a little knee
jerk there, going, Oh, talking to the

whales, and this is the Rupert who's
gone, you know, he works with shamans

in Kalahari, he's seen people shapeshift
into leopards, and yet even with all

that, there's still like this little
vestige of the old school, which is

basically just the people that raised
me talking, you know, and I observed

that and I went, Ooh, if I'm having that
reaction, that probably means there's

something in what Terry's saying, because
it must be challenging some old paradigm.

And so therefore, I should
know what the new paradigm is.

Then I was intrigued.

So I said well,

do you remember I asked you?

Is that because Because because I thought
let me just put all prejudice aside.

Let me just ask the curious question
here So what what I was curious

was is If whales are deciding now
to come forward and help us, which

would make sense on sort of the more
planetary, the more global level

we are after all a planet of water.

Is it because in the last 40 years we
have stopped hunting them basically?

I mean, there's a couple of countries
that do, but we've basically

made a decision as a species.

to stop hunting that species, you
could say, and have the whales

noticed and have they now, does
that make them think we're ready for

some sort of shift in consciousness?

And where are they in
consciousness and where are they

in relation to our consciousness?

So could you talk to us
a little bit about that?

Terry Kuebler: Yeah, and, and we'll take
it back to because the, the messages

that the horses had completed there.

Soul contract of helping humans evolve
was coming from the whales, not from

the horses, the horses are still
very, that is their part of their

contract with humanity is to help
evolve it help raise its consciousness.

And.

If I take it back to, for me, my
intuition, what I've learned is

that my intuition comes to me in a.

nonlinear way, meaning that a lot of
times I'll start to receive the answer

before I've even asked the question.

And then when I go and I ask a question,
I go, well, I must be just making that

up because I already was thinking about
that, you know, a week ago or whatever.

And now I recognize the pattern of
Answers start to come and then I form the

question and and the dots get connected.

So the reason that I say that is when
I say that the whales were calling

to me what now in my mind, I relate
a calling to it's it's part of the

answer starting to come through of
now the whales want to teach us.

I hadn't connected yet with whales.

I didn't know that I was going to,
but I kept getting this niggling in my

mind of, I need to be around whales.

I need to connect with whales.

They have something important to teach.

So taking it back to that, that,
that, that was the calling that I

was having intuition wise of, of it's
time for other species to step up.

So then when I, when I decided to
start doing some channel writing of

connecting with whale consciousness,
it wasn't an individual whale or

an individual group of whales.

It was.

The collective conscious of whales
saying horses have done their job

in raising people's consciousness.

that now they're asking
the right questions.

And do you remember that I said
earlier, when you start being aware

of these fields of consciousness,
the animals are already there aware.

That's why the whales are ready, because
we've gotten to the place where the whales

are go, Oh, hello, here you are finally.

Rupert Isaacson: Now,
the lion, when you Right.

Now we

Terry Kuebler: can teach you
because you just woke up.

You just entered the room or
this field of consciousness.

You just entered it.

And now we can have a conversation.

That's how it feels to me as far as
other species being ready to teach us.

No, they've always been ready.

We're now entering the room of
that field of consciousness.

Of course.

And it's because our beliefs have gone
there, science is proving, you know,

these different fields of energy and
these different connections are possible.

So we're entering the room, so to speak.

Does that make sense?

Rupert Isaacson: It does.

What, what, what, what messages of
note have come into you from the Wales?

Terry Kuebler: Well, a lot of the
teachings were about vibration and

frequency, how how healing the planet
and ourselves and it, you know, it was

kind of, I, I believe it was Edward
Casey said a long time ago, think of

things in vibration and frequency.

That was Tesla.

Rupert Isaacson: But, but, but Casey
also, what Casey said was that rather like

Jung, he, but Casey called it the Akashic
record, Jung called it the collective

consciousness, that there is this sort of
all human ideas, all ideas, all experience

that has ever existed or ever will exist,
all exist sort of simultaneously in this

quantum field and you can access it.

If you want to intentionally
sort of thing that right.

Yeah.

And of course, just just while
you're saying that you talked

about frequency and vibration.

What are whales, but things that
exist by frequency and vibration.

Yeah,

Terry Kuebler: right.

And they and they the information coming
through was about the Akashic records So

to speak for the planetary consciousness,
that the water contains memories.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

Yes, liquid intelligence.

They

Terry Kuebler: are able to
access that information.

So they were saying humans are concerned
right now with losing their elders

and with losing indigenous people.

cultures.

We're still here.

We have access to the water.

We have access to the, the
records of, of the planet.

And that's how we navigate.

Cause I was like, why do whales sing?

And they were saying, we are
seeing our stories into the water.

We are sharing our, our
navigational routes, our

histories, our stories our culture.

Into the water, and they said,
think of it like the rock

paintings for indigenous cultures.

You know, or the storytelling tools
this week, the water is our tool and

so there was all information like that.

That was like, oh, wow.

Now, and I, when I get information
like that, it's like, okay, go

research that and find out more.

And it takes me down these
rabbit holes of, oh, there it is.

Oh, there it is.

You know, water has memory and that's
we talked about that on the retreat

a little bit of imbuing the water.

With your intentions and
changing the structure of it.

Well, they're saying that we have the
capacity to do that, to, to clean up water

pollution is just do it vibrationally.

And and then there's, yeah,
it's just, it's fascinating.

And then there's the elephants are
coming forward now, and we could

teach how to do that with the earth.

The earth also has the capacity to retain

Rupert Isaacson: memories.

Right, that was going to be my next
question, because for example, when

I'm hanging with the Bushmen, the Sun
Bushmen, and the Kalahari, they'll always

say the earth is us, the earth is our
ancestors, our, our bones, our dust.

Becomes the earth, you know, we
we are so that was going to be my

next questions Okay, so elephants
earth talk to us about that

Terry Kuebler: Well, that's I, I
haven't gone there yet, haven't been

with elephants yet, but, but that's the
message coming through is that there's

something about vibration and frequency
and, and the, how they receive it

through their feet how they know what,
how they, because there was a like a

documentary that was narrated by Morgan
Freeman that talked about a rescue that

would release elephants back into the
wild and they couldn't figure out how

the elephants from prior years would
always show up wherever they were going

to do the release, even though it was a
different time of year, and hundreds of

miles away, the elephants that they had
already released would show up there, and

they were going, how do they know this?

You know, where we're going to be when
we're going to be there, and I always

found that fascinating that there's
some form of knowing or communication

that the elephants have with the
intention of the humans that raised them.

Rupert Isaacson: It's very interesting.

You know, we know that whales sing,
speak, communicate, you know, vast

distances through vibrations of
frequency, some of which we can

hear and some of which we cannot.

And of course elephants do the same.

They often communicate at very low
frequencies that the human ear can't

pick up, but the instruments can.

And I find it fascinating that we're now.

at a point in human culture where we
can accept through instrumentation

that there are many, many planes, even
in our own physical plane, that we

cannot perceive like infrared, like
ultraviolet, like higher frequencies or

lower frequencies that we now can accept.

Whereas perhaps a hundred years ago
or 50 years ago, if we'd have said no

any, if it's, you know, if I don't,
if I can't see it with my eyes and

hear it with my ears, It's not there.

And now we know that
that is just not true.

Even though, of course, we'd had
the telephone, we'd had electricity,

we'd had all these things that we
actually couldn't explain, couldn't

see, but knew, knew were there.

But we say, well, I can sort of see
electricity because I flicked the light

on, but no, that's not electricity.

That's light created by electricity.

We still can't see what electricity is.

Oh, I can see lightning.

Yeah, but that's not electricity.

That's electricity.

That's electrical energy creating
a visual form of something else,

but what is electricity itself?

We, we still don't know.

And

these conversa, conversations like this
with you give, give me a lot of hope

because really what this begins to sound
like is the sort of conversation that

I might have in the Kalahari with one
of my teachers, who was a healer, was a

shaman, deeply involved in walking the
line between physical world and the non

physical world and the animal world and
the human world and having to do that

because your very survival is based on it.

What I'm wondering as you are
telling me these things is, does

it all come down to empathy?

Terry Kuebler: I'm not
sure, say more about that.

I'm not sure I understand the question.

So, so

Rupert Isaacson: empathy, empathy and
sympathy are two different things.

Like, so let's, let's say, I don't
know, you, you stub your toe on the

door and like, Oh, Terry, you're right.

That's sympathy.

But if I have stubbed my toe
pretty recently and you stub

your toe, I'm in your shoes.

I can feel what you need.

And I'm like, Oh, Terry, do you need this?

Because I can feel what you need.

That's a very banal example.

But, so, empathy between humans, say,
is walk a mile in that person's shoes.

Well, you can't, but you can, with your
imagination, project it there, and then

that suddenly opens your heart, and that
suddenly opens your heart to compassion.

You were talking about heart
coherence, and what it will

certainly do is dissolve conflict.

What it will certainly do
is reach a better outcome.

Then if you didn't do that, it will
open up channels of communication.

It will repair relationships.

It will avoid war, for example.

But it's one, we find it hard enough
to do that between our fellow human.

When we go trans species, however, I
think very interesting things happen.

And I guess I'm feeling that if we
are basically a hunter gatherer,

highly intelligent ape, who evolved
at the, margin of land and water,

because that's our history of
about the last 300, 000 years.

Therefore, we're sort of amphibious.

Therefore,

the relationship with the
water is very important for us.

And it can be positive or negative
depending on what we imbue it with,

because that's liquid intelligence,
like our cerebral spinal fluid

and our blood is all part of that.

The liquid in our cells is all part of
that same water that's on the planet.

And then if we begin to bring
that empathy to other species,

a horse, a dog, a lion, a whale,

a rock, a stone, a star,

are we, a fungus, you know, are we
then all of those things at once?

Because we are all those
things at once, right?

We're mammals, we're, we have
fungus in our bodies, we're all

composed of stardust, we're,
we're all composed of liquid.

Once we start behaving that way, thinking
that way, feeling that way, whether

we come in because we want a better
relationship with our horse, or better

relationship with our spouse, or better
relationship with ourselves, or our dog,

is it a question that as soon as we
take that step into this sort of greater

empathy, Then what we're actually
doing is we're dancing with God.

And as soon as we do that,
does, is that the great mystery?

Is that when life becomes?

magical, beautiful, wondrous, all the
things that we know life actually sort

of is behind the veil of all the shit.

And it's just like, we, we,
we, we're trying to touch it

and back to the movie industry.

It's so interesting.

You know, the movie industry almost
exists to kind of try to help us connect

with this world of the imagination and
this world of inspiration and this world

of, but, you know, hierarchies and,
Other things can get in the way of that.

But nonetheless, the aspiration is
there for a sort of altered state out

of body experience of sort of having
the story take you sitting in the

dark with the big screen in front of
you, whoosh, you're into the story,

but it's

Terry Kuebler: a

Rupert Isaacson: bigger story, isn't it?

Terry Kuebler: Yeah, the word, when you
say the word empathy, for me, it still

comes from A mindset of, of division of,
of there's me and there's you, I can, I

can feel you because I can relate to you.

So there's, there's,
there's me and there's you.

So you're, it's still
a, a separation mindset.

And, and, and then we're talking
about the particle of, of when I

can feel it, experience it, touch
it, measure it, then it's real.

And that's a slow and dense
way of receiving information.

If, when our beliefs change
as they are starting to change

now, because science is.

Going there and proving it of, of
that everything is made of energy.

And so when you start thinking in a.

Mindset of my body is an instrument
of receiving energetic information

from fields of information.

That's the levels of consciousness
that you're talking about

of, of being able to know.

What an animal is thinking or being
in an environment and like you talk

about the hunters and gatherers where
they become part of the environment

and they know where everything is, they
know what it's thinking, they become

part of that field of information.

That what stops us from being
able to do that is our beliefs.

It is in any way different cultures
that have been brought up in that

way, have that ability to do that
and they think we're abnormal.

What do you mean you
can't talk to the stars.

What do you mean you don't
hear the tree standing over

there, and what it has to say.

You know, it's just, there isn't, they
don't have to get through that belief

of, well, I'm a human, and therefore I'm
special, and that tree is just a tree.

It doesn't have to be.

It's so interesting,

Rupert Isaacson: yeah, because we
didn't start that way as humans.

No, and we are connected, of
course, whether we want to believe

it or not, I mean, here we are,
we're not anywhere else, you know.

So

Terry Kuebler: for me, there's different
fields of connection, there's your

internal field, your external biofield,

Rupert Isaacson: your,

Terry Kuebler: your field that you
have with, you know, other people

with, with, with those you're connected
to, you know, you have a group field.

So we're just starting to get
interested in working with the

horses and working with the animals.

We're, we're getting interested
in what is this group field thing?

You know, how to, how do birds
fly and not crash into each other?

How do they know, you know, and,
and people are starting to have

those experiences where they go,
wow, this is a real thing, a group.

And I think, I

Rupert Isaacson: think we have
that all the time, you know,

even without noticing it.

For example, I was at a,

conference last year where somebody
was saying, Oh, and animals can do that

thing like birds and murmurations or,
you know, horses all running together

and not bashing into each other.

And it's because they're
more connected and we're not.

And I was thinking, is that, and then
they showed pictures of people in

crowds sort of falling over each other.

But I was like, Hmm, I don't know.

I've seen horses bash into each
other and I've seen, you know, I'm

sure birds do it sometimes too, but.

Actually, humans do it all the time and
we do it under really extreme situations.

So for example, I'm in
London as we do this thing.

And I just came back here on the
subway from visiting my mother and in

the ward where she's had her backup.

And you know, you're dealing with
thousands of thousands of people

in a busy station in London, all
moving through a narrow space.

All a little bit in their stress brain
and really they ought to be bashing into

each other all the time But no, no, no,
they're not they all Dancing elegantly

in and around each other as if by water
half of them with their headphones on.

Not even looking at each other and
absolutely aware and no one's being

pushed off into the you know Train tracks
and no one, you know, it's actually a

miracle and fights aren't breaking out
between people and people aren't tripping

up and there's this old, you know, old
person who's vulnerable and everyone's

just flowing around that person.

And I was looking at it going, you
know, we're still, we are so connected

and it's only when we bring thought.

To our disconnection, weirdly, that we
disconnect and but as soon as we aren't

thinking that we go straight back to
connection, but I think we just aren't

Terry Kuebler: conscious of it.

Especially Western, you know,
Western, it's really been taught.

And that's, that's why it's so fascinating
to work with kids as far as intuition

and stuff before it's been taught.

Hold out of them, you know, we've
been taught we're, we're, you know,

that's not real and we're separate and
take care of yourself and, and, you

know, there's not enough to go around.

So we have to compete for it.

And all of those are learned behaviors.

If, if, if we were able to keep kids
in their intuitive, creative, You

know, mindset from early on what
a different planet it would be.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's interesting
where, where the conversation

evolved to in a little bit
further back was the problems

with being with hierarchies.

And hierarchies are scarcity, scarcity,
mentality, scarcity, mentality comes

directly out of agriculture and all
of the warrior traditions, all of the

breakdown in the equality between the
sexes, all of the separation from the

divine epidemics, organized religion.

It all starts about 10, 000
years ago with agriculture.

Before that, you do not see
war depicted on cave paintings.

You do not see human atrocities depicted.

You do not have.

lone warrior stories.

No, no, no, no, no.

Completely different way of thinking.

And luckily those people are still
here alive and well on the planet.

We've pushed them into very, very,
you know, difficult retreats.

But my philosophy is I do feel, and
I think it's conversations like this,

prove it, that we coming out of that
post agricultural, post modern, post

industrial thing are returning to
the hunter gatherer sets of ethics.

in terms of how we relate to each other,
how we relate to the planet, the idea

of care, the idea of compassion, the
idea of love, religious frequency,

stewardship, while at the same time now
having at our disposal these tools, these

technological tools, which we've earned
through a rather unpleasant process.

Can we turn those technological
tools To the right thing.

Time will tell, but I do feel that
there's a, a will there, a growing will

there that I think someone like you
having witnessed your relationship with

animals and the way people change their
relationship with animals and therefore

to themselves and therefore to the wider.

Environment both on
this planet and beyond.

I think that's to some degree proven.

I think that your life is really
sort of a, an illustration of that.

Would you not agree that I'm
very optimistic, but call

me naive, but I do feel it.

Terry Kuebler: It's very exciting
and fascinating to me of that.

It is.

It's, it's not, it's
not gaining new tools.

we're reawakening to what's already there.

And, and that's the same thing of,
of, of, like you said, that when you,

when you raise your consciousness or
change your beliefs or, or start getting

interested or curious about these
different ways of, Receiving information

or of being the animals are right there.

They're already there going.

Oh, yay Oh, yay Hi, glad you came into
the room, you know, glad you glad you're

here so so the whole message of and the
whales are waiting that that was what I

burst out to To carrie lake when I met
her and the whales are waiting because

that was the message that I was getting
Is they were waiting for us to get to

a certain conscious level To be able
to even exchange information with us.

So it's really encouraging that, that
obviously we have, you know, we're waking

back up to remember a lot of these things.

Indigenous old ways of being or,
or teachings that that are going

there are now proven by science.

And so now we're, we're, oh,
it's okay to believe that now

because now it can be proven.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I think the, I
think the, the advances in quantum quantum

entanglement are changing everything.

And now, yes, okay, yes, we could
exist on multiple planes, yes, you

could be connected with someone at a
vast distance, yes, yes, yes, because

here we've, we're observing electrons
doing just that, being waves until

we observe them and then they become
particles and then we look away and they

become waves again, we're seeing this.

I agree, and if you take it

Terry Kuebler: back to our original
conversations of our original

conversations of what's the biggest
shift that I, that I witness in

people it's a change of focus for for
communication with their animals to

work is it's a change of their focus.

It's.

The same on a planetary level of
just instead of a problem solving

mentality of what's wrong with the
planet, what needs to be fixed, that we

could change to a mindset of, of what
frequency would be most valuable here

and things would change immediately.

That's the message that I'm
getting with the whales of, of, of.

If you think in terms of
vibration and frequency, it

could happen instantaneously.

Rupert Isaacson: That's

Terry Kuebler: encouraging.

Rupert Isaacson: It certainly is.

And by the way, for those listening, this
is happening in the field of medicine.

And I'm hoping to get a couple of people
on the show who are practicing doctors and

researchers who are beginning to look at
how vibration of frequency can be used to

do things very, very quickly that we don't
think the thought hitherto cannot be done.

And of course, what is
that but shamanic healing?

scientifically proven.

It's so interesting, isn't it?

It's just the original stuff.

I guess the original stuff is
always going to be the best stuff.

And yeah, sometimes people
say, why have animals at all?

Well, they connect us, right?

They connect us to this stuff.

Terry Kuebler: Well, it's, and it's,
again, those levels of consciousness

and awareness of they're the same as,
as above, so below, you know, it's

like, so you say medicine is going here
for us to be able to heal ourselves.

Well, and heal our relationships and
heal the planet and heal the, you know,

to, to get to the place that you said of
eventually co creating with the divine.

Rupert Isaacson: So I think we should all
listeners go on a retreat with Terry to

co create this relationship with divine.

Terry, how do we reach you?

How do we find, how do we find you?

How do we find out about you?

Terry Kuebler: It would be
my website is Terry Keebler.

com.

Rupert Isaacson: Can you
spell that out for us, please?

Terry Kuebler: T E R R Y K U E B L E R.

Rupert Isaacson: And that's
why Terry with a y and Keebler

with a UE terry keebler.com.

Terry Kuebler: Yes.

And I'm in the process of
developing like retreats and

stuff now, so, so we'll be talking

.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Okay.

I, I, I can't wait.

And yes.

Just for disclosure listeners, we'll
probably be doing them on the east side of

the Atlantic, hopefully at a place called
Castle Lesley, which is amazing in, in

Ireland, and to be determined stateside.

But watch this space Terry it's It's,
it's been an amazing conversation.

Can we do it?

Can we revisit this and come back
and go a bit deeper next time?

Sure.

Terry Kuebler: Sure.

I'd love to.

Rupert Isaacson: Then I think with that,
we've given everyone something to chew on.

Would you say, go connect with
your animals so that you can

go connect with God, basically?

Terry Kuebler: Basically.

Basically.

Connect with yourself so you can connect
with others so you can connect with

the environment so you can connect
with It's a chain, not a hierarchy.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, that's
the interesting thing, isn't it?

Like the lion doesn't want
to be in charge of you.

The horse doesn't want
to be in charge of you.

They just want to, they just
want to coexist with you.

in the right way sometimes

All right.

All right.

Well, thank you so much for joining us.

Well, we will continue this.

I continue to go deeper.

It's been a real it's been
a real pleasure terry.

Terry Kuebler: Thank you.

for having me

Rupert Isaacson: Thank you for joining us.

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