Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

, people, this is an interesting,
, and rather exceptional

podcast we have coming up.

I just want to give a disclaimer.

There will be some
potential triggers in here.

We'll be talking about, , suicide,
suicidal ideation, and also some

aspects of the supernatural.

So if any of these three
things are trigger points for

you, please switch off now.

Thanks for joining us.

Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New
York Times bestselling author of

The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.

Before I jump in with today's guest, I
want to say a huge thank you to you, our

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So now let's jump in.

Welcome back to Live Free, ride
Free, where we talk to people

who have lived and are living
self-actualized lives of all kinds.

And what can we learn from them?

Today, Emily K's daughter
you're gonna think I'm nuts.

Emily doesn't just talk to animals.

She talks to the stones, the
mountains, the trees, the lot.

And those of you who know me will know
that I'm actually quite skeptical of

this because in the work that I do with
horses and with autism, I get a lot of

people coming and saying, oh, I'm an
animal communicator and blah, blah, blah.

And usually my bullshit meter
goes, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep.

And the reason it does that is because
frequently the reports of what the animals

are saying or whatever is often somehow
negative towards the humans or something.

And I, in my time with the Bushman
the sun in the Kalahari where

there's a lot of direct animal
communication going on, those kinds

of things are never the message.

They're always much more within
the animals sphere of reference

of which we are peripheral, not.

Central.

And so this idea that, well, you know,
my rider doesn't ride me well enough, or

something like that, just always struck
me as sort of one human to another human,

sort of using the horse as a, you know,
way to criticize another human basically.

But the fact is that communication with
nature is a real thing and has been a real

thing ever since humanity has been here.

Because guess what?

We're part of nature.

And if you've spent any time with
hunting and gathering people, some of

you listening have, you will know that
the way in which they communicate with

the environment around them, anima
and inanimate is appears supernatural.

However they would posit and I
think I would posit having spent

a lot of time with them, that it's
not supernatural, it's natural,

it's just that it's happening on a
level that we have forgotten, lost

the need for, become deaf to, et
cetera in post agricultural society.

So anyway, that was a long preamble
to say that Emily is one of the

few people I've met who seems
to have an unbroken connection.

Despite being within our society.

And I find this fascinating and I
want her to talk to us about it.

So, and, and how really this
has defined her life and, and

her livelihood and everything.

So, Emily, welcome.

I hope I did you justice.

Tell us who you are, what you do.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Thank
you for having me here.

And as you and I know but maybe the
listeners do not, is that you helped me

a great deal by, by saying that, this
way of relating to your surroundings

which I have recently just given the
concept name empathic inter being that

that is a natural state for human being.

So maybe I'm not the weirdo after all.

And that was both very devastating
for my ego and helpful for myself.

Rupert Isaacson: Oh, sorry.

I'll try to stroke your ego.

No, no.

We inate of course.

No,

Emelie Cajsdotter: once we got it crashed,
please don't put it together again.

Yes, it's, it's hard
to know where to begin.

An answer to that question.

Start,

Rupert Isaacson: start at the beginning.

Okay.

You, I forgot to say
that you're in Sweden.

You are in a very natural
place in, in Western Sweden.

But take us back to your beginning
because I know that you were not always

raised in nature that no, not at all.

How did this evolve for you
to start as a small girl?

And just take us on the journey, please.

Emelie Cajsdotter: I think when
people see the work I do today, which

is living in nature, working with
biodiversity, communicating with all

sorts of living entities it's easy to
think that I grew up in the countryside

in very sort of loving and caring
environment, but it was the opposite.

I don't mean to blame anyone by saying
that it wasn't loving and caring.

It, it was a, a great
destructive mess as I think why,

Rupert Isaacson: why

Emelie Cajsdotter: or
civilization in many places are.

My father I grew up in a highrise building
in the outskirts of Gothenburg in Sweden.

One of these high rise building with
sort of 10 floors and several doors in.

And I had a key around my
neck because, there weren't

really very many adults around.

And it was this sort of concrete
jungle type environment.

And my father, who most likely today
would have been given some sort of

diagnosis within the autistic spectrum,
was a researcher in abstract mathematics.

And that he could do, he
was apparently very, very

intelligent in that narrow field.

And he lived his life
on that very fine line.

That fine line.

Didn't include any social skills
any capacity to at all interact

with his surroundings including me.

And he died when I was five in
what was most likely suicide.

He had asthma and he mixed his asthma
medicines so that he suffocated and died.

And I was five at the time, and I
was with him when that happened.

So I would say that that had a
huge impact on me and still do.

It's like there are things that you sort
of get over and that there are things

that you learn to integrate in your being.

And I would say that that
would be one of those.

Rupert Isaacson: Does that mean
you actually watched him die?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes, I watched him die.

Rupert Isaacson: Can please, if it's
all right, take us through that, because

Emelie Cajsdotter: yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: that
could mean so many things.

Can you, can you be as
clear as you can be?

What, what happened?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

Well, I was five and people think,
tend to think that children are

very unaware of what happens around
them, especially in a younger age.

And I have very clear memories from
a very young age, and maybe because

those are my links to my ancestral
memories and maybe I, my being would

be more alert to really collect them
somehow knowing that he would pass.

This was not the only complication.

My mother was not really equipped
for the role of having children.

And she knew that she knew that that was,
this was really not at all doable for

her for various reasons, but she grew
up in a, in a generation where having

a husband and children is what you do.

So.

It, it was what it was.

She couldn't really at all
deal with having children.

So, and since my father was also
incapable of any kind of care it was

my mother's mother, that grandmother
that would basically raise me.

And she was a psychic healer.

So thi this is the,
this is the little pool.

Rupert Isaacson: Just quickly,
you were an only child?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

I think maybe, I mean, as much inspiration
I got from this upbringing, I, it

might also be a good thing that there
weren't a lot of kids in this situation.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

And then the second
thing, this grandmother.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Your mother's mother.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: Also in
the tower block there in

Emelie Cajsdotter: yeah, in
another highrise building.

Actually, not in the beginning, but
after my father died and she realized

that this is all gonna go to pot she
moved to another highrise building.

Where, where was she

Rupert Isaacson: before that?

Was she more in the country or, or No,

Emelie Cajsdotter: she was in
the middle of the city as well.

Her interesting dream was always
to become a mathematician.

She was also highly intelligent
in that measurable way that

makes sense for mathematics, if

Rupert Isaacson: well, all
these people working for Saab.

I know that Gotham, no,

Emelie Cajsdotter: none
of none of them were

Rupert Isaacson: center for the Saab.

Emelie Cajsdotter: My father was
working in the university and my

mother was working in the university
too, because she has this whatever

unusual skill with languages.

So she speaks seven languages.

And your mother?

Yes.

They all have like racing heads.

Rupert Isaacson: Is your
mother still around?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Okay.

And so, so did my grandmother,
but my grandmother being born

sort of, well more than a hundred
years ago she was never allowed to

pursue in any studies of that kind.

Rupert Isaacson: And when you say
she was a psychic healer, sorry,

I'm, there's a journalist in me.

I've gotta piece all puzzle
pieces together first before we.

Psychic Keila.

How did you know?

How did she know?

And in that urban context, that's million

Emelie Cajsdotter: dollar question.

She was very good at looking into
people's future, and I didn't

really like that because she

Rupert Isaacson: would
do that as a party trick.

She'd do that for a living.

No, no, no.

People came

Emelie Cajsdotter: to ask her for
help and she never charged money.

She had some other daily,

Rupert Isaacson: but how did that evolve?

How did it evolve that, did she go
around saying, oh, and by the way,

you, oh no, people just, you're gonna
blow your nose next Tuesday week.

Or like, how did people
find out and how did, I

Emelie Cajsdotter: don't know because I
was so young, but they just, they just

knew and they just, and people would were

Rupert Isaacson: around coming to her.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

They would come to her.

And I, they never

Rupert Isaacson: asked.

She never told how it evolved.

Emelie Cajsdotter: No, actually
I never really thought of it

until you ask now, to be honest.

Anyway.

She would very good at, at
that's, that's brilliant.

No, she would see people's future.

And I found that a bit uncomfortable
because it, it raised the question

in me whether there actually
is a, a set destiny or not.

And I didn't really like that.

Mm.

So I didn't want her to
see anything about me.

Some, she said a few things anyway,
because she just couldn't stop herself.

And, and so far she's been correct.

But she also believed in all
sorts of guardian, angels,

reincarnation all of these things.

Rupert Isaacson: Do you know
how she evolved these beliefs?

Emelie Cajsdotter: No.

Okay.

Rupert Isaacson: Because it doesn't
sound like it was in the family culture.

The family culture was very
cerebral and very intellectual.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

I have no idea where that comes from.

Was she religious?

Interesting thing is that on my
father's side his sister has almost

the same qualities and nobody
knows where that comes from either.

Okay.

So

Rupert Isaacson: strange northern people.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

Yes.

And she was such a good healer that if
I was at home and she was at home and I

had a headache because I had migraines
for as long as I can remember, and

I would have a migraine coming on, I
would call her and she would just do

something that I wouldn't know over
the phone and the headache would go.

And, and to me that was always normal and.

And when I started to have experiences
myself and, and, and being confused and

scared and overwhelmed, I would tell her
logically she would be the one to tell.

And she would always
tell me that it's normal.

She never made a big deal out of it.

She never made me feel special,
and she never made me feel wrong.

So, thinking about it afterwards,
I think that approach of this

is fine, this is normal was very
helpful in whatever happened later.

Rupert Isaacson: And she never, she
never asked, told you, or you never

asked, where does this come from, granny?

You know how No.

Okay.

Okay.

There.

No, it just felt

Emelie Cajsdotter: natural and normal.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Emelie Cajsdotter: And before my
father died he went to her and asked

her if she could look after me.

And she saw him dying.

She told me that years later she saw
him dying and didn't want to believe it.

Mm-hmm.

So, but she didn't want to upset him,
so she said, yes, of course I will.

And then he died.

So, she would be my sort of human
contact, but she, I think she taught

me so many things, and maybe one
of the most important things she

taught me, because she later ended up
committing suicide as well, but then

I was 17 years old is that there is
nothing black and white in this life.

Mm-hmm.

It's not that.

How could she teach me all the things
that has proven to be so helpful

throughout my life and still not
being able to live with herself?

How, how is that possible?

And, and how can my father who I felt
some strange bond to, although he

could never show emotions in the usual
way, he could definitely radiate love.

How could he kill himself?

And I come to this soothing
free conclusion after

dealing with this for years.

Is that because all of it is
possible at the same time?

It's, yes.

My grandmother could teach me
all these things and she still

couldn't live with herself.

And both are true.

And although they are completely
contradictory they can definitely

coexist within the same human being.

And it doesn't affect my love
for her or for any other of my

highly destructive family members.

Rupert Isaacson: Let's just go back
to, I, I want to delve into, in, in

a moment what we think the motives.

'cause I suspect the motives for
each of them to take their own lives

were probably a little different.

And I think this is a, a worthwhile topic
to explore for the reasons that you just

mentioned, and that many things can exist
simultaneously, including timelines.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

You

Rupert Isaacson: know, having,
again, spent a lot of time

with indigenous people.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

And I think for, sorry, for a modern,
civilized human being you could say

that this was a harsh learning curve.

Rupert Isaacson: Yes,

Emelie Cajsdotter: for sure.

But maybe a small chart

Rupert Isaacson: because, you know,
you also rely on your parents to

Emelie Cajsdotter: but maybe that's what
it takes to break down this linear mind.

Rupert Isaacson: Right, right.

And linear, I think is the word there,
because if one thinks of time as, as

vertical, which indigenous people tend
to that, as far as I've been aware,

then as you say, things are happening
simultaneously, past, present, and future.

We think of it obviously
very much as linear.

And are brought up to think that way.

And of course it's comforting.

I feel more to, and I'm all about comfort.

I think comfort is good to
think of it as vertical.

But let's just go back to, I just want
to now dial us back to your father.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

Yes, please.

Rupert Isaacson: You are you, you
said, you say you, were you in

the room with him when he died?

Like, did you see him die?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Well, I saw him
almost die which also is a storyline.

He had taken those medications, he
mixed his medications, and later I

was told that he'd mixed them several
times before and ended up in hospital.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Emelie Cajsdotter: So I
understand that he, to some

extent, knew what he was doing.

And this was between
Christmas and New Year's.

And I remember that Christmas, I was
clinging onto him in a way that I would

never do because, because he wasn't
physically accessible as a father.

You couldn't sit on his lap.

You couldn't hug him.

He didn't, that, that's not
how you interacted with him.

But and, and for me, that was fine.

But on that Christmas, I remember like
really grasping him, like holding on.

Legs and arms and clothes and whatever.

So, so somehow I knew and, and,
and he knew that, that there,

there is a parting coming.

And when it actually happened, he
was sitting on the bed in the bedroom

looking out through the window.

And outside of these windows in
this flat, we were on the third

floor, were this amazing old tool.

Although we were in the city beach
trees, like huge, very dark stamps.

And, and it took me many years to
fully understand how present they were.

It's like, yeah, you think
you're alone and, and you're

vulnerable and very exposed.

You are when you're a kid and
everything is falling apart.

But those trees, they were there
and they helped much more than,

than I was aware of at the time.

So they were also there.

So he's looking out of the window at
the trees and so am I, he's not looking

at me, we're not having any contact.

And I understand that he can't
breathe and he's about to fall,

so he collapses on the floor.

So I see him collapse on the
floor and I think that he is

still in his body as that happens.

And sometime around that time, the
neighbors comes and they take me out

and they, and they say that, oh, he's,
he, he only has difficulty swallowing.

I know that he's dying.

But I think the fact that I, at that
point in time didn't see his spirit

leaving left me in a state of something
that later turned into quite an extreme

workaholic personality where I spent
many years trying to save and rescue, I

dunno how many individuals and animals,
mainly, I mean, we have a sanctuary here.

And I'm not saying that that's
wrong, but in adult years I

understood that within me.

He wasn't really fully dead.

It took me years to accept that he was.

So, every time I got a chance to
save someone, there was hope for him.

And every time I couldn't, I
had to face this bottomless pain

of accepting that he's gone.

So you could say that that
story went on past that point.

Although after his death, quite shortly
after, I could see him sitting in the

living room, always in the yellow pajamas.

I have no idea why he would
always have those clothes on.

But and, and I could talk to him
and I realized that he is dead.

But he's visible to me sometimes.

I can't control it.

I can't ask him to come.

But sometimes he comes.

And you mentioned the reason for
him choosing to die, and, and I

think he answered that in, in one
of those early meeting points.

Then I went on into my
own self-destructiveness.

So

Rupert Isaacson: you can't go on,
you just gotta tell us what that is.

You can't drop that and leave it.

No,

Emelie Cajsdotter: no, no, no.

I'm gonna go.

Okay.

But what, what he said is
that the difference between

you and me is the words.

And what I understand from
that sentence is that.

Yes.

I also live a life that is
quite a thin thread that goes

far out from what's normal.

But I have a way to reconnect to
the common world of fellow human

beings, which is through the words.

And he didn't he left a box of
equations that no one could solve.

He never expressed himself
except that one time after death.

Rupert Isaacson: Do you think he left
because he found it to painful to be here?

Do you think he left because
he felt he could do his work

better from another place?

Do you think it was an act of, was it
an act of distress, him taking his life?

Or was it an act of

logical creativity to sort of go to the
next professional phase or something?

What, what, what, what do you

Emelie Cajsdotter: I always felt
it was more on the desperate side.

Okay.

Rupert Isaacson: What, what was it
that he found so painful, do you think?

Because if he had the job in the
university and he could exist

in that mathematical world.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

You know, he had to, and then

Emelie Cajsdotter: he had been
offered a job at Stanford University

too, so he could have gone deeper.

Mm-hmm.

And probably met more people
that wouldn't find him so odd.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Emelie Cajsdotter: But he, he chose
not to which is unexplainable.

But I think what I continue to
explore after this and still do,

is the isolation of modern humans.

Mm-hmm.

I think there is a specific pain in
isolation that may not be like emotional

heartbreak, the type of pain or anxiety,
pain or those things that we can phrase,

but another overwhelming pain that is both
inside and outside and might be the reason

why we feed ourselves so much stimuli
and why we are so costly for this planet.

And I, I think for him that isolation
was, very obvious and maybe the things

that more so-called normal people would
do to suit that pain didn't work for him.

Rupert Isaacson: Do you think in
another, perhaps more authentic human

context he'd have been All right.

And if so, what would that context
have been and what would his

role have been, do you think?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Well, I think
when I live with animals, any

other species, I notice that when
you remove the filter of linear

thinking, you also remove hierarchy.

And when you remove hierarchy based
on values everyone seemed to have a

unique role that is unmeasurable in
value and uncomparable with anyone else.

And what I also notice is an
obvious acceptance that you're

not meant to be anything else
that would be stupid to be honest.

So it seems like everyone else
except the modern human, linear

society is making maximum use of.

Individual capacity one way or another
which means that you don't have to

do things that you're not meant to or
that you're not cut out to be able to.

Which means that if he lived in,
in a, in a herd of horses, he could

probably have spent his whole life
diving into this far, far, far

away place of abstract mathematics.

And someone else would make sure that
the wolves don't eat him or that they

do get to the water place and that he
does get to sleep sometimes thinks that

he could never really do for himself
as a human being would maybe in a

different society be okay because it
would fit somebody else's unique role,

Rupert Isaacson: I guess.

Right.

My question there though is that he
was, he was clearly valued, right?

He had a job at the university
so people saw the value of

his mathematical brilliance.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

But I think it's in the relate, in the,
in the possibility to relate to others.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Right.

So the, the professional context
not being enough, even if you're

surrounded by your fellow nerds.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

Yes.

And, and, and if you look at
so I think we've all along been

looking for the same thing, but my
approach is completely different.

I think when,

when I would try to explain any of
what empathic, inter being would be.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

Emelie Cajsdotter: It's not, it's
not being psychic, it's not reading

something, it's not interpreting someone.

It is for a moment fully with
all senses, experience the

other one's reality from within.

And that can only happen if I am available
to the same extent for the other one.

Rupert Isaacson: So feeling gotten

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Feeling seen.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

So I exist in you and you exist
in me, and I think that is

probably our original context.

Mm.

And when we lose that.

We begin to experience some
sort of alienation that is

harder for some than others.

But I would say that a lot of
states of being that is normal

in, in modern human life is maybe
a symptom of lack of empathic

inter being and not normal at all.

I I, I've heard you talk sometimes
and you seem to often mention

that joy is a natural state.

I would agree.

And so what every other
species that I've met so far.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Emelie Cajsdotter: So why
do we have so little joy?

And, and, and why does it disappear
in such an early, why do we stop

playing earlier and earlier?

We do.

Rupert Isaacson: I think, I think we're
told to, I think we're conditioned.

Yeah.

But in our, in our natural
state, I don't think we do.

Emelie Cajsdotter: No.

So, so there are lots of things that we
take for granted as a normal maturing of

a human being that might not be at all.

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

Yeah.

There's, well, I put away childish things.

I'm like, fuck that.

I mean, really, honestly I'm just
thinking as, you know, I'm, I'm

just imagining, I'm projecting in my
imagination your father as being, say

in the Kalahari or, you know, east
Africa or Paleolithic, even Neolithic

Europe, you know, and I'm imagining him.

Organizing the construction
of a stone circle

Emelie Cajsdotter: Exactly that, you know,

Rupert Isaacson: and so those are my
questions, you know, it's like, okay,

who built those ancient observatories
that now we realize go back way

further than we thought they did?

You know, with the new findings that
Gobekli Tepi and earlier archeological

things that are, that are now rewriting
the whole human history thing from when

I was an archeologist and historian
at university, which is, you know,

starts with the Sumer 6,000 years ago.

It's mm-hmm.

You know, Goli, Tepi, they now know is
6,000 years older than that, and they

just found another one close and there's
this new one in Indonesia that's older

and these were being organized by people.

And you could say, well, yeah, he was
doing that at the university in Goberg.

Yeah.

But not in a way, but in
a way that was isolated.

Okay, you must sit here in this
department of mathematics or

this department of physics at the
end of this corridor in a box.

And you, and now do your equations.

Put them in a box.

Yeah, exactly.

Rather than.

Observe the heavens.

Mm-hmm.

Show us how to observe the heavens.

Exactly.

Be our mad, beautiful
druid who emanates love.

Yes, we will absolutely make sure
that there's venison for you because

we need to understand why that
strange light in the sky is coming.

We need you to make those
calculations for us please.

And we realize that that's gonna
take you, you know, five months of

just sort of more or less sitting in
your heart while we bring you things

and we are going to work on healing
you and we are going to love you.

Exactly.

And let you be.

Emelie Cajsdotter: That would've
worked is my, that would've

Rupert Isaacson: worked.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

No, I get it.

I get it.

I get it.

Because, you know, he must have
had a great joy like I could

imagine when he was in flow and
he was in the zone with his Oh,

Emelie Cajsdotter: yes.

When he was flow, flow, he would
gallop around in the living room

and jump up and down and make little
noises which was hilarious to watch.

Okay.

So he, he did express himself,
but not, not the way you would

expect an adult man of his age to.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

So he was playing among the
fractals and the fib sequence

and the beauty of creation.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: But unable to

Emelie Cajsdotter: gallop
on the spot like a horse.

Fantastic.

Something

Rupert Isaacson: autistic behaviors.

Yeah.

No, a, a amazing.

Okay.

Okay.

So he leaves.

Mm-hmm.

You are there when that happens.

You are five.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Let's go on from there.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Well, the thing
is you might think, think that lots

of things happened after, but I would
say that a lot of things also happened

before, and, and I know that they
happened before because this is such a

cut in my timeline, so I know how old
I am depending on if he's alive or not.

So I know that before the age
of five I have this obsessive, I

would call it obsessive fascination
with the end of consciousness.

So my thought that I can't let go
of to the point of having panic

attacks and not being able to sleep
is is the universe expanding or not?

This is what I think about constantly.

But I can't really phrase
it because I'm too young.

But this is, this is on.

Why

Rupert Isaacson: would
that have mattered to you?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Well, I have no idea.

But it did, I mean, it was
a matter of life and death.

I could not stop thinking about it.

And, and I still find it fascinating.

Rupert Isaacson: Did you ask your dad, did
you ask those adults around you because

they seem to have been the people who
would've also thought of such questions?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

Maybe we did, did discuss some of it.

I don't know.

But what I do remember is this
constant thought and finally

coming to the conclusion that
maybe the universe is expanding.

I think I came to that conclusion
because that was the easier for my mind.

So I.

If it was expanding, it would have an
edge because otherwise there wouldn't be

a sort of something that would expand.

Expand.

And if you come to the edge, if you come
to the edge, how can you get past the

edge and remain aware of that happening?

How can you cross the boundary into what
is non-existent and still exist beyond it?

And then I, I would go to that
point and then I would sit and tell

myself the word eternity, eternity,
eternity, until I got so dizzy and,

and would hyperventilate and panic.

And then I, and then I had this
pile of Donald Duck magazines.

'cause I learned to read
when I was really young.

Sort of, I remember sort of instant.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,

Emelie Cajsdotter: yeah, yeah.

And, and I would turn on the light,
look at Donald Duck for some reason.

Donald Duck.

My mind would calm down and, and, and
understand exactly what I was looking at.

Then I would close the lamp and
I would start all over again.

And I would've nightmares
and, and, and scream and cry.

And, but I could not, I was
so drawn to, to that Okay.

Sort of far end of the, of, of what
was still accessible to my mind.

Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.

Emelie Cajsdotter: And I still is yes,
I'm still extremely fascinated of what

happens when we expand ourselves beyond
what is possible for the, for the mind.

I st I still find that very fascinating,
but maybe not to this or maybe

I still do get anxiety from it.

I don't know actually, but
I did when I was young.

So that was before he died.

You would think that you would have all
these existential thoughts because you

experience death, but that started before.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So you are dealing with the idea of the
limits of consciousness very, very young.

Then your father does die.

Yeah.

Can you take us through the rest
of your childhood now go into

your childhood, into adolescence.

Take us on that journey.

Emelie Cajsdotter: After my
father died, I, I had a real fear.

I mean.

Existential anxiety is something
because you choose it somehow.

But this was real fear because I knew
that I was left with my mother, whom

I was terrified of because she really
had these temper tantrums and fits

that was completely unpredictable.

Okay.

So I was really really afraid of
being home, of going home alone.

And because I grew up in this neighborhood
where it was this sort of high rise

buildings is usually for people who
for some reason don't have a lot

of money or they have other issues.

So there would be quite a lot
of alcoholics and drug addicts

and other broken families.

Even

Rupert Isaacson: though your dad had a
good job at the university and so on.

Yeah.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Could he have
afforded something different or,

Emelie Cajsdotter: I don't know.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Interesting questions

Rupert Isaacson: because yeah.

You associate university professors with
living in nicer neighborhoods and things

Emelie Cajsdotter: like that.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

That was never explained to you?

Emelie Cajsdotter: No.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

But okay.

You're in a slightly
depressed neighborhood and

Emelie Cajsdotter: yes.

Which means that there are lots
of other kids with broken homes.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Emelie Cajsdotter: And we find each other
and form some sort of family of our own.

So, that I would say was quite helpful.

Okay.

And I could explain to them that
I don't dare to go home by myself.

My mother threatened to kill herself and
because to me that was a real threat.

It could happen.

Yeah.

I didn't want to find her dead, so I
made sure I always had a friend coming

with me if I was going home after school.

Okay.

And from the age of seven, I
started to ride in a riding school.

Rupert Isaacson: Why, how did that happen?

Emelie Cajsdotter: I just
wanted to be near animals.

I always wanted to be
near animals, but my why

Rupert Isaacson: riding?

Why ponies?

Why horses?

Why not dogs?

Emelie Cajsdotter: I didn't
really care about riding.

It was just a pool.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

And who organized that for you?

Emelie Cajsdotter: I think
it was my grandmother.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Emelie Cajsdotter: She was behind
a lot of those sort of doesn't,

Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

It doesn't sound like a decision
your mom would've made at that

Emelie Cajsdotter: point.

No.

No.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Emelie Cajsdotter: And because
we're in the city and the stable

is in the city, so I cycle there.

So I cycle to the stable almost every day.

And I'm with a friend in another high
rise building and her mother is working

as a, she doesn't know who her father is.

So she lives alone with her mother.

And her mother is a waitress in a bar that
at that time started to have drag shows.

And this was new in the time.

Right.

And I, I still love drag shows after this.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

How can you not?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: He doesn't
love a good drag show.

Much of

Emelie Cajsdotter: everything, right?

Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: yeah, yeah.

Emelie Cajsdotter: But anyway, joy.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

As you know, if you followed any of
my work, I'm an autism dad and we have

a whole career before this podcast in
helping people with neurodivergence,

either who are professionals in the field.

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When my son, Rowan, was
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I found it through an amazing adult

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And she told me what to do.

And it's been working so
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That not only is my son basically
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If you would like to learn this
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Emelie Cajsdotter: Since I couldn't
really go home most of the time

and she didn't have a father and
she was working nights, um mm-hmm.

My friend's mother would take both my
friend and me with her to her work.

Ah.

So we would hide behind this huge velvet,
courteous and look at these big guys when

they were putting on loose tits and Yeah.

Makeup and glittery dresses and yeah.

I, I, I love that.

I still love the feeling of
sort of, because we knew that we

were a bit too young to be there

Rupert Isaacson:
shapeshifting and role play.

Yes.

Interesting.

Yes, yes.

That shamanic process of transformation.

Yes.

Emelie Cajsdotter: And I loved it.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Emelie Cajsdotter: And there was some,
there was something in there and they

were happy and they were friendly and
and sort of courageous in their own way.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson:
Non-judgmental, absolutely.

Supportive of each other.

It

Emelie Cajsdotter: was amazing.

I didn't know that that world existed.

Rupert Isaacson: How old
are you now at this point?

Emelie Cajsdotter: I'm probably
like 7, 8, 9 years old.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Emelie Cajsdotter: That sort of thing.

Rupert Isaacson: And you, you
found you're cycling to a.

When you're not going to drag
shows and at school you are, you're

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

Drag shows or, and writing school

Rupert Isaacson: brings, brings
drag hunting the idea of drag.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And when you are exposed to the ponies
at this point, are you talking to them?

Are they talking to you?

Or does this come later?

Well,

Emelie Cajsdotter: this, this
begins this begins I to begin.

Do you

Rupert Isaacson: remember the first time?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes, definitely.

Please,

Rupert Isaacson: please tell us.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

This is a riding school that
is an image of civilization.

This is in the middle of the city.

All the horses are tied up in stalls.

There are almost no fields.

They're in a very traditional regime.

This riding school has changed now to
something totally different, but back

then a regime that is based on obedience.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Like you do as you're
told, or you will be sold or killed.

Yeah.

And, and the horses that come naturally,
they come to this riding school with

quite a lot of energy or vital force,
although a lot of them come through

horse tradesmen and they've had a
troublesome past before they end.

Well, you know how it is.

Rupert Isaacson: I do.

Emelie Cajsdotter: And then they
get broken down quite quickly.

You, you see how they
start with this natural.

Playfulness taking initiative,
making contact, all of these things.

And you see that fall off them as
they stay on this writing school.

And then eventually they will develop
some sort of physical lameness or

other issue, or they will become really
aggressive and then they're gone.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Emelie Cajsdotter: This
was, this was the situation.

And so one day this pony comes to this
writing school and she's small pony, a

chestnut mare, really, really aggressive.

And in the world of linear
hierarchy it's very important.

Who's the boss?

The whole idea is about that.

So a horse that makes you frightened
needs to know whose boss basically,

so to deal with her aggression,
she's met with more aggression.

Sure.

And usually that will
make one part give up.

And usually that part is the horse
because they have a very bad starting

point because they were slave in
the slave trade to begin with.

So, but this pony doesn't give up.

She attacks back and
she really attacks back.

And if people keep beating her to the
point that she's not attacking back

anymore, she just freezes and waits.

She never submits, she never
shows any sign of submission.

So then people start to, and this
is the writing school teachers, they

start to try to give her sweetss.

This is around the time when, when
horses were given sugar cubes.

So they would put out their hands and
give her sugar cubes and she would

bite the hand, refuse the sugar cube,
making a statement of that and leaving.

So this horse begins
to really fascinate me.

Because for me, yes, I do have a
good time at the drag shows and

I love being with my friends, but
inside this, I am, I am breaking,

because I'm terrified of my mother.

I'm terrified of being home.

I feel no sense of value whatsoever.

I have this unnameable grief over my
father that I can't understand or phrase.

I anyway have all these existential
thoughts that can't stop

because my mind is racing just
like on all my ancestry lines.

So it's very hard to be me.

So

I'm beginning to, I would
say, lose myself at this time.

Mm-hmm.

And I also begin to feel that
may be dying is the only way out.

'cause I know that dying is a way out.

It's present.

Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: you've observed it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Emelie Cajsdotter: So, and
I'm not really afraid of that.

As much as I have no bloody clue
how to live in this society.

So when I see this pony who
obviously is impossible to break

down, it makes me very curious.

What, what is her strength?

What is her motivation?

Why, why is she, because for
most of us, it's like the lack

of punishment becomes the reward.

Is that Sure.

Is she all

Rupert Isaacson: right
with a child on her back?

Like it does she, that's

Emelie Cajsdotter: what
throw She throws them off.

Rupert Isaacson: She throws them off.

Okay.

So, and 'cause that was gonna be my
question too, about some of these ponies

that come, okay, they're not having a nice
time in the writing school, but do they.

Enjoy to some degree the relationship
with the children that come.

Emelie Cajsdotter: I'm sure some do.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, some horses that I meet in riding
schools now and, and I definitely would

say that there are riding schools doing
a fabulous job of merging these worlds.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Emelie Cajsdotter: And when I meet riding
school horses that are really content

in the setting, they're in, I would
say they always describe that they have

this group of students that they really
relate to and they feel that they totally

matter in how these individuals evolve.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

Would be very similar.

Exactly.

They're generous.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

They're generous.

Okay.

Rupert Isaacson: But this is
not the case with this pony.

Emelie Cajsdotter: No.

And this is not the case, the way
that place is being run at that time.

Rupert Isaacson: So you become
fascinated with this pony.

What Then

Emelie Cajsdotter: I become
fascinated because what is it that

she has that nobody else have?

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Emelie Cajsdotter: How, how,
why is she not breaking down and

how can she be so courageous?

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

' Emelie Cajsdotter: cause she knows that
she's going to be bitten and treated

horribly, but somehow for her, it's
worth it rather than losing herself.

Mm-hmm.

So.

Why does she like picks this, this fight?

Mm-hmm.

So I go down to her stable
and I don't dare to go in

because they're tied in stalls.

And what she does is that she looks at
these people with her ears forward, and

then when they go in, she kicks them
into the wall and don't let them out.

And sometimes she bites people's
stomachs and she don't let go.

And, and I've seen that happen
and they sort of scream and many

people have to go in and take them
out and it's quite terrifying.

So I don't dare to go in, but I'm
totally fascinated and I think that

this original genuine fascination
without an agenda might be one of

the keys to what's gonna happen next.

Because basically my question
to her is, who are you?

It's not, can you please change?

Why are you doing this?

Why can't you behave?

It's who I really want to know who she is.

And now when the horse is here
years later, have started a school

in empathic into being for humans,
this is the question that we work

with the most, the curiosity to
really meet the essence of another

living, being without any other want.

Not because I want something of
you, not because I want it to lead

to anywhere, just because I want.

To be where, where you are somehow.

So this is what I feel when I
stand outside of her stable.

And then something happens
that I would say is grace.

And, and maybe because I
was so ready to give up.

I mean, I wanted to die anyway, so
I don't really have a lot to lose

in having my image of the world
torn down as I probably would have

if I was in a really good place.

Because what happens is that this
invisible plexiglass wall that is

usually between each one of us in this
type of society, meaning that I can see

you and I can relate to you, I can hear
what you're saying, and I can to some

extent, through my biological design.

Also I do have mirror neurons.

So if you were sad, I would be sad, but
I wouldn't know what it's like to be you.

It would always be how I feel when
something happens to you and how I

interpret what happens to me when
something happens to you, right?

In this case, this,
this rule is taken off.

So.

Instantly and without any
warning or preparation, I know

exactly how it is to be her.

It doesn't mean that I
forget that I'm also Emily.

I know that I'm standing on the stable
floor and, and observing her, but so

I know what is me and I know what is
her, but all of a sudden I'm in her

and I'm also in her observing me.

So it's like I do feel exactly
how it is to be her, but she also

feels exactly how it is to be me.

And all of these things are
happening simultaneously without

any stress of comprehending
all of that at the same time.

But what I do find, and
I'm 11 at this time.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Emelie Cajsdotter: What is frightening
to me is that all of a sudden, my

entire foundation of how I've built,
my way of looking at reality is gone.

It literally feels like someone
pulls the carpet and you're standing

on a completely different floor.

And what is inside of her is this
intense sadness and feeling of

being completely misunderstood.

And regardless of how high you
scream and how strongly you

express yourself, no one hears you.

It, it, it, it's, it's like
screaming inside of, you know, one

of those little boxes that has is
soundproof so nothing comes out.

And that sense of extreme powerlessness
was really overwhelming to me.

Now, when her feeling of extreme
powerlessness hits me, it hits me in a

spot where I am forced to see myself.

Because if I, if I am completely
experiencing you, I also have to have

this complete honesty in experiencing
me, because now I'm being seen with

the same eyes from, from the other one.

Mm-hmm.

So I'm also faced with my own inner
state unmasked my own desperation

feeling of never fitting in and
not knowing how to live this life.

All of this is coming crashing
in at exactly the same time.

And, and I, I realized what is what
you would think that there is a

emerging, but it isn't because that
will be a projection and this is not

so, and then she has this image of.

A big barn type building.

And I would never know if this building
existed for real or if it is symbolic.

I can't tell.

But there is an image of a
barn and a low wooden door.

I would say that any old Swedish
wooden barn could look a bit like that.

And in this image, she is being forced
to go in through this small narrow

door with some sort of whip or cane,
or there is something long and narrow

and the feeling is to refuse to go
into something that will diminish you.

And, and I'll never forget that
feeling for as long as I live.

I think which answered my question.

Who, who are you?

Why are you so strong?

Well, this is her strength.

She refuses to adapt
herself to a destructive

circumstance, and she never did

Rupert Isaacson: what
happened to her in the end.

Emelie Cajsdotter: What happened to
her in the end was that she got COPD,

which is chronic obstructive pulmonary
disease and was going to be put down.

My grandmother realized that if this pony
dies, maybe so will my granddaughter.

So, okay.

Rupert Isaacson: So you build
a relationship with this pony?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

Yes.

Because after this event, this,
this happened, I don't know

for how long this went on.

Probably not very long in
linear time, is my guess.

Not that anyone on the
outside would notice.

You would just see a girl standing
in a stable and a horse eating hay.

Right.

And it's completely life altering forever.

And, and I realized that there is another
way I realized that there is something,

there is a way outta this isolation.

Rupert Isaacson: You go and
tell your grandmother this,

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: Immediately.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Not immediately,
I think, but at some point

Rupert Isaacson: soon-ish.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: Say, Hey granny,
I've had this kind of Yes, yes.

And that

Emelie Cajsdotter: I feel this.

Exactly.

And then she would say, oh,
well that's normal, and continue

with whatever she's doing.

Okay.

Usually what motor?

Okay,

Rupert Isaacson: so, so the, the
horse develops a chronic ailment.

It's heading for a bullet job.

Probably.

Emelie Cajsdotter: I, I become her groom.

You know how it is in writing schools?

Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

Emelie Cajsdotter: I realized that this
pony holds a key and in my Presumably she

Rupert Isaacson: doesn't pin you
against the wall and rip your guts out.

She

Emelie Cajsdotter: does.

She does.

She does.

Yes, she does.

Every

Rupert Isaacson: time.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

Almost.

This, this, this is also an
interesting part and an important part.

Rupert Isaacson: How do you survive?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Lots of bruises.

She, I feel that she holds the key outta
this reality, so I can't let go of her.

I understand that.

What she shows me is that that key
is equally in me as it is in her.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Emelie Cajsdotter: But with my
linear mind, I need her to not

lose myself is my beginning point.

So I clinging on to this pony.

And the way to do that is to be her groom.

She hates being groomed.

Okay.

And I hang onto her like a drowning man
to, you know, this sort of life vest.

And she begins to test me.

And I think that from a linear
perspective, we tend to see

testing as a, as a power game.

Like you test someone until you know
who's boss and then that sorted.

But what if the test is about who are you?

Do you know at all what you're made of?

What if that is the test?

And it's not about power at
all, because if we remove the

hierarchy it's good for everyone.

Like literally everyone on the
planet that I am the sort of utmost

honest, complete version of myself
because that is my gift to this life.

And, and I'm broken and,
and, and I want to die.

And I'm terrified of everything.

And, and I'm not in a good state.

Mm-hmm.

So this pony doesn't want to be groomed.

She doesn't want me to clinging
on for emotional support.

She can't give any of that.

She knows that.

I have to find that in me.

So she brings me to this difficult
test where most people sell their

horses, which is the test of endurance.

It's like, okay, so now you had
a glimpse of what's possible?

Are you prepared to do the work?

So am I trustworthy to her?

Am I trustworthy to myself?

How do I deal with fear?

All of these things.

I go to her stable every day.

She bites and kicks me almost every day.

And after a year and a half and, and I
begin to develop this love for her and I

begin to realize that that sort of love
doesn't need any confirmation whatsoever.

And after a year and a half, she puts her
muscle on my shoulder for two minutes.

And I'll never forget that
either because I didn't.

Go there every day for a year
and a half for her to do that.

She, she never needed to
give me anything back.

And that was extremely helpful.

If, if I didn't go through those years
with her, I would never work with animals

that has PTSD or go through these healing
processes that takes 5, 6, 7, 10 years.

Maybe the first five without
any results that you could see.

Rupert Isaacson: So, okay.

After she puts her muzzle on your,
on your shoulder, what, what happens

then to her, to you, to you both

Emelie Cajsdotter: Quite shortly
after that, she gets sick.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Emelie Cajsdotter: And you could
easily see how a horse would develop

a lung disease in an environment
that is almost only indoors.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, totally.

I mean, it's, it's a known
thing with overly stable horses.

Yeah.

Emelie Cajsdotter: And you could also
maybe add an element of Chinese medicine

into the equation where lung diseases
is considered, in some cases relating

to inherent fear and deep grief.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

Emelie Cajsdotter: So, and what I saw
was also a horse that constantly fought

for her integrity and she preserved that.

Hmm.

But that also means that during
all the time that you do that,

because you're in a war I.

Hmm.

You don't do all these other things.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

That's exhaust.

Yeah.

Emelie Cajsdotter: And, and
you don't live your life.

Right.

You don't thrive.

You don't develop your
your qualities and talents.

You don't make friends, you survive.

You do every whatever it takes to
survive, but you emotionally depleted.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Emelie Cajsdotter: And exhausted.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Emelie Cajsdotter: So she's
going to be put down for this.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Emelie Cajsdotter: My grandmother
interferes and buys this horse,

and at this point I'm 14 years old.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Have you been riding her?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

That works.

She's not throwing

Rupert Isaacson: you off?

Emelie Cajsdotter: No,
she's not throwing me off.

She's brilliant.

She runs really fast, you know,
she, she takes the bit and just

takes off and, and I love it.

Rupert Isaacson: So by then,
you guys have worked out a

relationship of riding together too?

Yeah.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

That was the sort of
easy part, I would say.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,

Emelie Cajsdotter: it was.

And she

Rupert Isaacson: was chucking
other people off before, right?

Yes.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes, she was.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Okay.

But by now, she's, she's accepted you
and you guys are cool together to what?

Yes.

Emelie Cajsdotter: We're
even doing dressage together.

We are doing some sort of, you know,
when there is this Christmas or Easter

or whatever, we are doing little
things, you know, doing the quad

Rupert Isaacson: drills
and the display and that.

Okay.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Like these sort of
mirror things when one tiny, because she

was very small, she's doing all these
things and another big horse with the same

color is doing the same thing and Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Part the, yeah, yeah,

Emelie Cajsdotter: yeah.

That's the name.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, cool.

So you guys work out
some harmonious mm-hmm.

We do.

Relationship that she carries
you, she agrees to carry you.

Yep.

Then she gets sick And your,
your grandmother buys the pony.

Okay.

Emelie Cajsdotter: She buys the pony
and I am over the moon because now I

think that it's all solved and over.

Right?

Yeah.

'cause I have no idea what you're in for.

When an animal decides to become
your teacher, it's never over.

Right?

So she's being taken from the
riding school and put in the

stable in the countryside where
she can be outside all the time.

It's this open, stable,
she can go in and out.

All the stress is taken away.

So in my world, all that's gonna
happen next is that she's gonna

be well and everyone is will in

Rupert Isaacson: after.

Emelie Cajsdotter: She gets much worse
because at that point, I don't know that

when you have a stress related disease of
some sort, and you come to a place where

you are safe, everything comes crushing
up to the surface at the same time.

Now, this is what I tell people when
I'm out working and this happens to

them now I can be supportive of that.

But this is the first time it
happens to me, so I have no idea.

So I try everything because now
the old desperation is back.

If she dies, my life is over.

There is no opening to the
world of non isolation.

And, and in the meantime, this door that
opened between us in our first meeting

never really closed because it's like this
double swinging door that is like this.

So if I'm with near an animal
that isn't feeling well, all of

a sudden I turn into that animal.

This, I, I can't control
this going in and out.

Rupert Isaacson: This is happening to you?

Yes.

From this point on with other animals?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

Particularly animals that are
not feeling well, that, that's

the only pattern I can see.

Mm-hmm.

I'm terrified of it and I
don't really talk about it.

Yeah.

And then I try every treatment under
the sun to heal this pony, like

alternative treatment, vet medicine.

Any other vet that someone
heard of and Well, you know.

You go through it a lot
because you're terrified.

And

Rupert Isaacson: well, it's also
the quest you're called to you, you,

you, you are, you have to in a way.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

Yes, yes.

Yeah, yeah.

And she responds to absolutely nothing.

And to me it's incomprehensible.

Why can't she get better
from anything at all?

Then there is divine interference.

Divine interference comes in a form of
a short notice in the local newspaper.

And it's my mother who spots it.

I mean, we really don't have much
contact and it doesn't work very well.

But she, she spots this notice in the
newspaper that says a veterinarian

from New Zealand is coming to Sweden
to give a series of lectures in the

subject chronic pulmonary diseases
in horses and alternative treatments

of, I mean, that is not happening.

That's too precise.

So my mother says, maybe
you should go to this.

And yeah, I'm going to that lecture.

I don't listen to the lecture at all
because my only focus is I need to

get this man to come and see the pony.

So directly after the lecture, I run
to this old man and, and saying, you,

you have to come and see my pony.

And he says, yes, fine.

We can go tomorrow.

I can borrow a car.

And we go and see your pony
because she's in the outskirts

of, she's now outside of the city.

And I take a bus out every
day and cycle every day.

So two hours traveling every
day to go to this pony.

It's still, the test of
endurance is on, right?

And so we are supposed to meet
the following day in a cafe.

And yeah, I go to the cafe and
he says, well, the car broke

down so we can't go to your pony.

But now you have a choice.

Either you go back to school
and make your teachers happy.

I wasn't too keen on school.

So it wasn't hard for me to skip.

Or you stay here and I will
tell you about what I do.

And I didn't realize that this was
one of these crossroads that really

matters because I was just desperate
wanting the pony to get better.

So I thought, I don't want to
lose connection to this guy.

So I stay.

And this man spent a full day talking
to this kid about what he's doing,

which includes healing Chinese
medicine, homeopathy all sorts of

energetically based treatments basically.

And during this whole day when
we sit in this cafe, I begin to.

Remember something because
somehow none of this is new to me.

This is something that some part
of me already know, and all of

a sudden I understand that I am
meant to do something similar.

This is why I get drawn in and
out of animals because I'm meant

to be able to do something.

So, and it was such a huge
relief to find that foundation

in me already at the age of 14.

Rupert Isaacson: Dot, dot, dot.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

So, then the next day, the car is fixed.

So he says, now we can go to the
pony, because now the car works.

And she responds like
clockwork to the treatment.

Rupert Isaacson: What does he do?

Emelie Cajsdotter: He puts needles he
gives acupuncture and gives her a mixture

of herbs amongst them I know is Chili
pepper because I have to go and buy it.

And she just immediately responds to that.

What was the

Rupert Isaacson: name of this bat?

Emelie Cajsdotter:
Sorry, what was his name?

Tony Frith.

I'm, I'm, I don't know
if he's still alive.

Rupert Isaacson: Tony Frith.

I might look him up later.

Emelie Cajsdotter: He,
he is in New Zealand.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, cool.

Please go on.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

And and he stays for another
one or two weeks in Sweden.

So I follow him as an assistant.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

'cause

Emelie Cajsdotter: I really want to
learn as much as possible, and he's

very kind in taking this kid on.

And I also realized that being such her
name was period means the tiny one was

such a great teacher that the timing of
healing, she's not sick because of me.

She's not sacrificing herself for
my teaching, but the timing of

her disease and what I have to
learn is absolutely brilliant.

And somehow she knows that because
she doesn't have that fear that I

have, she has completely given herself
to her destiny in a way that is at

that point, still unknown to me.

I mean, I struggle to
keep everything together.

And then he, this, this vet, he leaves
me with a bunch of acupuncture needles,

flies back to the other side of the world
and says, now the rest is up to you.

And, and around the same time,
my mother says the same thing.

My mother, who at that point
suffers from a great depression.

She can't get outta bed.

I remember neighbors having to
come in to sort of lift her around.

She was in a really bad state.

She was in a destructive relationship.

Plenty of those.

But this one may be a bit more particular.

And she tells me this is without anger.

She just says, I, I can't look after you.

Which, which is obvious.

I, I, I will give you a bank account
card and the money, the grant you

get from the government each month
for having a kid, which is about $80,

it's like you will get that amount
of money that I would get for you.

And you just have to, you,
you have to find a way.

Rupert Isaacson: And grandmother,
is it still around at this point?

Emelie Cajsdotter: She's still
around, but she is not really

feeling very well in herself either.

So I get more or less financially
independent at that age.

Rupert Isaacson: This is what,
nineteen eighty two, eighty three?

Emelie Cajsdotter: I'm born 74.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

It's a bit later then it's like Yeah.

Emelie Cajsdotter: It's
like late eighties.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Okay.

Emelie Cajsdotter: And then and I
have one talent that I don't have

to work for, and that is painting.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Emelie Cajsdotter: So I become a
portrait painter and financially

support me and this pony mm-hmm.

By painting portraits from that day on.

Okay.

Which I continued to do until.

I started to do this
as a full-time living.

I mean, I don't have time to paint
now, but hopefully I will go hide

somewhere at some point and continue.

Rupert Isaacson: Bit like me in writing.

Yeah.

Yes.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Okay.

Time.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So you are now 15, 16.

Emelie Cajsdotter: 14.

Rupert Isaacson: 14.

This happens at 14?

Yeah.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

And meanwhile, adolescence has happened.

Puberty's happened.

Yeah.

And has that further opened
up any kind of portals in your

perception, or has that changed any?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

That door I, I'm, I'm calmer
with it because now I understand

that it has a context.

Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.

Emelie Cajsdotter: But what happens
in, in adolescence is that it becomes

messier meaning messies, maybe not,
confusing is maybe a better word

because it's never, I never had, I
had one really frightening experience,

but, and I brought that on myself.

We could do that one too.

It's a short one, but, but all good boys.

Yeah.

All my experiences with, with
ancestors, with other species with.

It always comes from a
source that has kindness.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Emelie Cajsdotter: I, I've, I've
never had an encounter with Ill intent

Rupert Isaacson: except for one you say?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah, except for one.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Tell us that one.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

It was in this time when all of a
sudden I could sit on the tram and

I would be in a different place.

I would see people that would be
deceased or in amongst other people.

It, it, it was, it is like many doors
going like this as adolescents is, even

if you don't add spirituality to it.

Right.

So, and, and I realized that I have to
do something about this and, and, and

this only one bad event I have is when I
have decided to not listen to any of it.

I have this short period,
very short, maybe a few days

when I decide to be normal.

Get an education, get a proper
job get myself a, you know, secure

foundation, not based on all these other
things that no one can see or feel.

And and, and I decide to, you
know, cut your hair and go and

get a job, that sort of thing.

So I, I decide to be normal and
stop this bullshit nonsense.

And and at night when I'm just
about to go to sleep and the room

is dark, I see this headless figure
coming close, closer to the bed.

And it's really scary because
it's just, it's just moving and I

can't, I can't communicate with it
and I can't stop it from moving.

And any sort of prayer or way to try to
get to a a center point doesn't work.

And I turn on the lamp
and it doesn't work.

This, this, this being
is just moving close.

I get sort of heart palpitations
when I speak about it.

Now it's getting to here when I
realize that, wait a minute, this

figure that I'm looking at, this
headless figure is me, it's my body.

I am, I'm, I'm killing myself.

Okay?

Because the feeling was that this, this
individual would come and suffocate me.

Hmm.

It's like, and ever since that
experience, it is like, okay, I

promise I will never do anything
normal and secure in my whole life.

So, and the

Rupert Isaacson: figure, when
you have that realization,

the figure sort of evaporates.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

Yeah.

They just wasn't there anymore.

Rupert Isaacson: So.

Interesting.

Are you still 14 or are you
a bit older at this point?

Emelie Cajsdotter: I'm
around that like 15.

Rupert Isaacson: Are you having
relationships at this point

or are you very much a loner?

Emelie Cajsdotter: I'm a loner
at this point, and I am slightly

uninterested in romantic relationships
because my friends who has that, they

become slightly boring in my eyes.

Right.

They, they start to sort of
sit inside and hold hands and

they're not out on adventures.

And and

Rupert Isaacson: are people,
are people observing you, other

types of relationship too?

So are people observing, you say
doing acupuncture on your pony, which

back then would've been something
very new and so, and are people

now asking you to do similar things
or are you kind of in isolation?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Mm, I'm in
isolation in the sense that

I'm, I'm just doing this for me.

Mm-hmm.

The things I do for others
is portrait painting.

Okay.

But I've always had friends.

And still do always lots
and lots of friends.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

Emelie Cajsdotter: And so you're not

Rupert Isaacson: isolated in that regard.

You are having relationships
just not romantic.

Yeah.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Emelie Cajsdotter: And then I moved
school, this is like now I'm probably 16.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Emelie Cajsdotter: And now,
now the pony is back on track.

I mean, she's healed from her disease.

And, and I know what
I'm meant to be doing.

So now it's climbed up from
this, there is no way for me,

I need to die sort of thing.

I'm not there.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Emelie Cajsdotter: But in this
awakening, I become very provocative.

Because all of a sudden
I don't need to conform.

Right?

This whole story of you have to go to
school, otherwise you will end up a tramp.

That doesn't work for me anymore because
I know what I'm meant to be doing.

So I know that there is a way.

So all this obey or you shall
be doomed has no effect.

And because I'm stronger I dare
to sort of test my surroundings.

So, so now I, I turn into a much
more sort of feisty type of person.

And I begin to study Dao de Ching.

For some reason, I find this tiny little
Dao de Ching book written translated

by a guy called Steven Mitchell.

And I still read this book because
I love that particular translation.

And I begin to question every single
thing around me and I go to this

school because you change school at
that age in Sweden, and I want to

focus on biology because I think that
maybe that would make sense to me.

I, I realized that I will need
typewriting biology and English.

So I, this is before you have
computer science in school.

And, and this is true.

These are the only things that I
ever needed and eventually not,

maybe not biology in the same as
much as English and typewriting.

And I find like-minded friends that
are questioning society in a very.

Non-aggressive way.

It's like we will protest against the
traffic in the inner city of Gothenburg

by dancing samba in the middle of
the street so no one can pass us.

It's a lot of playfulness.

It's not that sort of
hatred driven protesting.

And amongst those friends is a person
that I really owe gratitude to.

And that is a guy who is a
musician in the Samba band.

It's lots of samba dancing.

And he, the

Rupert Isaacson: samba is so Swedish.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah, yeah.

No, but you know, it was the
military coup in what was his name?

Pinochet.

Rupert Isaacson: Oh, yeah,

Emelie Cajsdotter: yeah.

Those refugees.

The kids born in that flight from Chile.

From Chile would be about my age.

These, that's the samba squad.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Emelie Cajsdotter: And anyway, and
this is the first time since my

father that I meet an absolute person.

This, this samba musician is
completely in a world of his own.

We never really spoke because you
couldn't he always had these headphones

on and he was always playing samba on
everything on the table, on his body,

on his teeth, on his bag on the lessons
outside of the lessons in the canteen.

And what I noticed with him
doing that was that obviously

he was 100% true to himself.

Mm-hmm.

He wasn't playing samba.

He was samba.

Got it.

And because he was it, no one
could have an opinion about that.

He just was who he is.

Mm.

So no one ever asked him to stop.

No one told him that your life is doomed
and you should all be a sort of in poverty

and hell unless you start listening
to your teachers, they let him be.

So, I, I noticed his way through the
world in school and that Okay, if

he can do that, I can do that too.

I'm not meant to play samba.

I'm meant to do something
completely different.

I'm meant to do empathic into being with
other species and, and if I'm 100% true

to that, without making any excuses,
the world is not going to stop me.

This was so incredibly helpful that I
actually found this guy's phone number

a couple of years ago and, and, and
wrote him a text to say thank you.

And he said, oh I didn't realize
that that would affect anyone else,

but, but he had come to exactly
the same conclusions for himself.

He just,

Rupert Isaacson: what, what have he got
on to do by the way, out of interest?

Emelie Cajsdotter: He, he
is still a samba musician.

He is in some really good orchestras
playing with some really good sort

of well-known Swedish musician.

He can make a living out of it.

Mm-hmm.

And he has a samba school in Rio.

Rupert Isaacson: Fantastic.

Okay.

So, you are now heading for college?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

This is sort of college, I suppose.

College.

Okay.

When, when you are sort of
16 to 19, kind of what's

Rupert Isaacson: interesting to me so
far is that with the possible exception

of the pony, and I presume you are
trail riding the pony in the forest.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: So far the
forest has not entered the story.

And I remember when I went to Sweden
at 12 years old, I was taken that I,

I was in a choir and the choir went on
tour in Sweden for, for some reason.

And so I found myself there and I
remember thinking, oh my God, this

is such a beautiful place and.

The forest, of course, being everywhere.

And so I remember going to Gothenburg.

Mm-hmm.

Because I think that's actually,
that was our entry point now that

I think, yeah, we, we went on the
boat and we entered at Gothenburg.

I don't care.

Gothenburg was a city, but
I was coming from London.

It's like it's not a

Emelie Cajsdotter: city.

Yeah.

No, it's not a city, it's a town.

Rupert Isaacson: And so you know,
the forest is like there, you know,

every, like, it's not like London
where you'd have to, you know, cycle

for half a day to get to the city.

It's like, no, the forest, it's there.

So even if you're in a high rise in
Gothenburg, the forest is accessible.

It's close.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

No, the forest is actually
in it all along because me.

Okay.

So, so just dial us

Rupert Isaacson: back to the forest.

When does the forest
enter your life and how

Emelie Cajsdotter: it starts
with these big beach trees?

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Emelie Cajsdotter: It definitely does.

And a constant feeling
of the forest being home.

Right.

And I would say that that's still
the nature type that, well, I love

all nature types not right, but it's,
it's ecosystem, but is really close

Rupert Isaacson: that you grew up in.

Absolutely, yes.

And,

Emelie Cajsdotter: and I remember
also seeing these big floaty

almost whiteish, big round things
floating between the trees.

I, I, I still am to this day,
don't know what that is, but

like some sort of forest spirits.

They wouldn't be there all the
time, but the times that I had seen

them I, I just love that feeling.

So did they ever

Rupert Isaacson: talk to you?

Emelie Cajsdotter: No, those never did.

It was just a presence.

Okay.

But I also began to see what we in
Sweden called little people like small

forest spirits or nature spirits.

Rupert Isaacson: At what, at, at
what age do you see them and how does

Emelie Cajsdotter: around this 14, 15, 16.

Around the time when, yeah.

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Okay.

That's interesting to me.

Not younger because, you know, I think,
I think no, but I was never really young

kids report seeing things like this.

But then it, they stopped seeing
them usually at adolescents?

No,

Emelie Cajsdotter: I was in the city.

I saw mainly dead relatives and,

Rupert Isaacson: okay.

So, so you, when you were a
kid, dead relatives, and then as

soon as you, you managed to get
out to the country with this?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: You began little people.

Yes.

Did the little people talk to you?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: What do they say?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Well, it's
a lot about healing generosity,

how to help nature, I would say.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Like an embodiment of
helping nature the way I Can you, can you

Rupert Isaacson: remember, do certain
conversations or interactions stand out?

Emelie Cajsdotter: No.

Not really, but I, I remember like
learning about different plants and.

These sort of things.

So when I realized that I no longer
need to be obedient and I was almost

never in school anymore except a few
days a week to get inspired by samba

friends, then I would be out in the
forest looking for forest spirits.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Would you always find them?

Emelie Cajsdotter: No.

And that wasn't really the point.

I think the point was that it was such an,
it just felt like a quest that made sense

Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.

When, when you found them

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: How did you
find, like, what was, I think they

Emelie Cajsdotter: find you,

Rupert Isaacson: how they'd appear.

Emelie Cajsdotter: They, they would
just appear as, as sort of almost

like being one with a stone or a tree
or, and they would sort of come out

Rupert Isaacson: and
say, Hey, how's it going?

Or what would, what would the initial,

Emelie Cajsdotter: I would feel respect
for them because they're sort of, they're

tough and a bit sharp and, and I wouldn't
sort of, if I would, would see them, it

would feel like a huge sort of thing.

And I would never dare to sort of ask
anything more than having got the chance.

Would you

Rupert Isaacson: greet them?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes,
I, I would greet them.

Rupert Isaacson: And how
would you greet them?

Emelie Cajsdotter: I would
greet them, like I would greet

anything like, I, I see you.

Rupert Isaacson: And
to which they would say

Emelie Cajsdotter: sort
of noticing me wordless

Rupert Isaacson: and
then saying, alright, I.

Emily, we've got something to teach you.

I'm gonna teach you about this plant now.

Yes.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

It could be like that.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Okay.

Any physical interaction?

Emelie Cajsdotter: No,

not except sort of things disappearing
and moving and those sort of things,

Rupert Isaacson: but not
physically touching you.

No.

And then talk to us about the variety.

What do they look like?

Emelie Cajsdotter: They look
like an embodiment of, like a

personalized embodiment of nature.

They don't really look like humans, but

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

So you're not seeing a little,
because we say little people,

one thinks of a small person.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

But I think we make them more human.

Rupert Isaacson: Would you see them
as human through your mind's eye?

Is that how you

Emelie Cajsdotter: No, but they would
have similar shapes to humans, meaning

that they could have arms and legs.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Arms, legs, eyes, mouth.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

And always small.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Those types.

Always small.

Rupert Isaacson: What
other types were they?

Emelie Cajsdotter: No, but other
types, like more, more fairy types that

would be more transparent and bigger.

Rupert Isaacson: Talk to us about those.

How do you, how they appear,
how do you interact with them?

Emelie Cajsdotter: I am.

So it feels like always
feels disrespectful to talk

about them, but I will try

Rupert Isaacson: indeed.

But I think people need, people
need these conversations.

I

Emelie Cajsdotter: know.

Rupert Isaacson: If we don't talk about
it, then it's also bullshit, right.

Because either we're
relegating it to fantasy.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

No, I, we're,

Rupert Isaacson: we're, we're, we're
bringing this kind of superstitious Awe.

Yeah.

Which is often around the sort of
fairy thing that, that you're not

allowed to refer to them directly.

The good people.

The, yeah.

This people that you know, and therefore
they're sort of slightly threatening as

like, what about just talking about them?

Because we need, by

Emelie Cajsdotter: the little ones
the, the small people fee are sharp.

I think they need to be sharp
with humans because we tend to

not really stick to our word

Rupert Isaacson: well
because we, we, we, yeah.

We, we bulldoze their
environments and create,

Emelie Cajsdotter: if they decide
to go into really helping you, yes.

They, they probably want to make sure
that you're actually going to turn up.

Okay.

We, we have a class here where the
entire content comes from them in

relating to plant medicine from a
completely different perspective.

Actually not using the plants like
we think about using plants and

they teach much more about in the
relationship with the plant already

there is a healing sort of Right.

And, and there it's very
important to actually show up,

to come on time to come on all.

The different classes and not
just sort of seeing it as a,

Rupert Isaacson: did you, did
you meet the same entities as

individuals often, or was it always
a different individual every time?

Emelie Cajsdotter: In this
particular class, it's the same one.

Rupert Isaacson: No, but I'm talking
about back you in, in the forest.

Emelie Cajsdotter: No, some
would be repetitively similar,

the same and some would be new.

Rupert Isaacson: So there would be
definitely relationships that Yes.

Carried over.

You knew the same entity.

Yes.

Over time.

What was the longest running
relationship that you had there?

Emelie Cajsdotter: That would've
been for a number of years?

When for as long as this pony was
in the same area, though, I would

be around the, in the same forests.

Rupert Isaacson: I'm talking about
a particular individual being

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

Yes.

Can

Rupert Isaacson: can, can you talk to us
about a particular individual being that

you related to over a number of years and
what the course of that relationship was?

Because I think, let's say in, in like a
fairy story, the idea is you, you might

have an encounter in the forest with
a supernatural being and it's usually

either a one-off or with some sort of
test involved or some sort of relationship

with some sort of wish granting or
showing you a quest and then gone.

But very rarely do you read about
Cinderella just going open around

for a cup of tea, you know, with.

The nature spirits, you
know, for the next 30 years.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

'cause the important test isn't
such a interesting story maybe.

Rupert Isaacson: Right, exactly.

So, but so, so I'm more interested, yeah.

I'm interested in the relationship.

I want to know,

Emelie Cajsdotter: I'm thinking about
one that I would consider male in, in

the energy that would be helpful in
the, in the time where when Ude was

directly, when her healing started
after the vet and stuff that would

sort of show himself on and off.

And the subject, and I'm, I'm really
trying to think about it now, was a

lot about healing and helping animals.

And the same here, I'm thinking about
one, there's also male type in a specific

place where there are refer trees.

And I don't know the number
of years on that one because

I've been here for long now.

And then the woman type one that
is designing the course for us,

that's for a year and a half.

That's a shorter one.

Rupert Isaacson: The male ones.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: Were
coming out of stones, trees,

Emelie Cajsdotter: yes.

Rupert Isaacson: But which,

Emelie Cajsdotter: Mainly trees.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Do you remember which tree?

Which type of tree?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Oh.

And then there was the one who helped
with clar, like making it more open

in this in the empathic communication.

That was a juniper tree.

Okay.

Rupert Isaacson: Male or female

Emelie Cajsdotter: trees?

Male fur trees juniper trees.

Pine trees.

Rupert Isaacson: And they
could be male or female?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

Okay.

Rupert Isaacson: Spirits of water?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: Talk to us about them.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Like really playful and

Like a sense of sort of water fairies.

Rupert Isaacson: Male, female?

Both.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Both.

A actually less of a gender

Rupert Isaacson: and

Emelie Cajsdotter: me.

Rupert Isaacson: What would the
lesson normally be or the teaching

or the interaction be with the water.

I,

Emelie Cajsdotter: I think there, there
are all these lessons that are with

and through water as memory carrier.

Rupert Isaacson: Memory carrier,
ah, liquid intelligence, right?

Yeah.

Emelie Cajsdotter: But that wouldn't
be them, that would be the water.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Emelie Cajsdotter: I think in a way

they, they're so close to us.

It's just like

another dimension and a slightly
different intention maybe.

They seem to be somehow less
dense than us, and their time

seems slightly different.

But I think not always when you meet them,
you are sort of targeted as their focus.

It's like sometimes they would come out
and, and, and teach and share something

because I would be worried about a sick
animal and I wouldn't know what to do

and they would maybe know what to do.

But it could also just be that we,
we we're both living here, they're

living in the same stream that I'm
also living close to, and sometimes for

some reason, we can interact and meet.

But it doesn't necessarily involve
tests or quests or teachings.

It, it can do.

But I think more than that, it's like,
it's just, they're just there because they

live their lives there just like we do.

For some reason we, we've cut them out
of our way of experiencing reality.

But, but maybe that's because we
relate to just one segment of time.

Of time, space.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

I'm, I'm So when you were, when you were
roaming around the forest as a young woman

did you encounter other people who also
saw and interacted with these entities?

Or were you the only one?

No,

Emelie Cajsdotter: I, I would
be the only one until I met

Maori people in New Zealand.

I would be quite alone on that

Rupert Isaacson: because, 'cause
quite a lot of people in Scandinavia

are still quite connected
to the land and the forest.

Why do you think you, you were isolated
in that, that there weren't like

a small community of people, like,
oh, you see them too, type thing.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Maybe more
people saw them, but we didn't

speak about it for some reason,
or because my life was so much

in the city.

Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.

Who was the first person you confided to
that you were having these interactions?

Your grandmother?

Emelie Cajsdotter: My grandmother, yes.

Rupert Isaacson: And she went,
oh yeah, that's totally normal.

Yeah, I see.

I see him all the time.

Okay.

So you had some sort of moral support,
some sort of validation with that?

Yes.

Did you tell your mother?

Emelie Cajsdotter: No.

Okay.

We, we almost didn't speak I ran
away from home at the age of 1516.

We, we didn't communicate

Rupert Isaacson: right.

Got it.

I'm so, but the grandmother there.

And then what about friends?

Did you tell them.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah, probably did.

Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: And what did they say?

Emelie Cajsdotter: They
didn't make a thing out of it,

Rupert Isaacson: did some say?

Please can introduce, I mean, I
would've been like, please introduce me.

I'm, I'm, I would like,

Emelie Cajsdotter: no, I can't, I
can't remember anyone saying that.

Rupert Isaacson: I can't
imagine saying anything else.

You know?

I mean, it's like

Emelie Cajsdotter: there is a, a
great interest in them now actually.

Yeah.

But it hasn't really been until now,

Rupert Isaacson: you know, as I
remember being acutely aware of

all sorts of energies around me or
through childhood and adolescent

and occasionally glimpsing things.

No, no sorts of interactions as you've
described, but glimpses and then, and

feelings and emotions and feeling that
I should now go over there and, you

know, indeed there would be something
over there, but not an entity if

you like, an experience perhaps.

But then it wasn't until I became
obviously drawn in with the sun and the

bushman and all of that, that I got shown
certain things and but usually, but always

through the intercession of a shaman.

I'm just trying to think if I've,
I've had interactions with what I

would imagine would be mischievous
ghosts and sprites and things.

Mm-hmm.

A bit, but not, particularly
in Ireland, but not

Emelie Cajsdotter: I'm
not surprised about that

Rupert Isaacson: and a couple
of us, but you know what I mean?

So we all have, but it, it would've
been intriguing to me to say, if, you

know, and I'm, I'm lucky enough, I know
I am gonna go into the forest with you

in, in, in a, in a matter of weeks.

So, fantastic.

And I would like to be introduced
in whatever way, please.

Mm-hmm.

Because my feeling is that it's time
to have these conversations openly.

I think we're, we're finally at a juncture
in our society where a conversation

like this is not either dismissed
as fancy or delusion or psychosis.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah, true.

However,

Rupert Isaacson: psychosis is, I
think, a ne a necessary and natural

part of looking at reality in order
to see beyond linear dimension.

The difficulty is how you, that we,
but now, you know, and now with people

using psychoactive plants in our society
and that sort of thing, suddenly,

suddenly people are allowed to have
these conversations because they're now

seeing the same sorts of entities that,
oh, I did Ira and I saw that one too.

And but, and this is now suddenly
post covid kind of entered the

mainstream, but it's very recent.

But I do feel that the,
that's why I'm asking these.

Very direct sort of question.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah, no, I, I
like the direct question and I don't

Rupert Isaacson: want to
waste my time with it.

Do you think it's real?

I want to know what they said, what
they look like, what the intention is.

Here's a question.

Do you think more of them
are showing themselves now?

Do you think that there's a, obviously
we've been destroying nature for

a long time, but not quite on
the level that we are currently.

Yeah.

Do they have an agenda?

Do they have a, would they be fine
if we cut the forest down anyway?

No.

Emelie Cajsdotter: They wouldn't
be fine if we cut it down anyway.

But it wouldn't make them give up.

Rupert Isaacson: Would they,
would they cease to exist?

If, if, if you're a furry
spirit and you cut the fur tree

down, do you cease to exist?

Emelie Cajsdotter: No.

You don't cease to exist.

You might not live, have that place
as a base, but your intention to help

restoring nature would be enhanced almost.

Rupert Isaacson: Why do
they care about nature?

I mean, you could say,
okay, well, they live in it.

They are it, but I think
why do they give a shit?

I mean, if, if we destroy
ourselves in nature, presumably

nature will come back and

Emelie Cajsdotter: if they
can't do anything else,

Rupert Isaacson: okay.

Emelie Cajsdotter: It's, it's like,

Rupert Isaacson: like a mother's love.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

It seems like the source
of this life, if you.

Of any story from any animal
plant forest spirit ancestor it

seems like whoever created this
did do it with a loving intent.

That was gonna be

Rupert Isaacson: my question.

It are they manifestations of love?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

In a way, I think it seems
like the intent is love.

And if we are connected to that source,
that intent is living through us,

regardless if I am a human or a dog
or a fairy or the furry or whatever.

And then it seems like whatever goes
against these care for the living

space, it's like, it seems like we, in
a linear society, we, we care so much

about development that we're going
to develop spiritually, and then we

will get more enlightened, and then
eventually we will never be reborn again.

And whatsoever you never hear those
stories from, from anyone else.

What you hear is that the miracle.

That life is even possible is the meaning.

So you don't need anything beyond life.

So to help create and uphold the
living space is like the most

sacred thing you could ever do.

And to not do that just
doesn't make sense at all.

So if, if, if a human somehow goes
against maybe with an immature version

of a creative potential we start
to destroy things around us instead

then they don't hate us for that.

But obviously we are in great need of
help because if we are preventing living

space from expanding and, and for life
to be lived in its own fullness, then.

Then maybe we are the
ones to reach out to.

And, and, and with our hierarchical
way of seeing ourselves as the sort of

crown of creation we might think that
every, everyone else who is alive has no

consciousness, no awareness of anything,
and all in the end, aspire to be human.

And, and I like to differ.

They don't judge us, but
they also don't praise us.

But we obviously we are a bit
lost and we need all the help

we can get in being included.

Again,

Rupert Isaacson: are these entities
ageless or do they like us?

Do they live and die?

Emelie Cajsdotter: They, they seem
to live and die but maybe in a

slightly different time span of things

Rupert Isaacson: give us like

Emelie Cajsdotter: maybe aging slower.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

But is there a point at
which, say for example, they

Emelie Cajsdotter: can, they look
like the same age forever, but I

can still see that some of them
look old and some of them look young

Rupert Isaacson: and do some, do they say,
do some of them say, I'm about to pass?

Or do others say, I've only just got here?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Hmm.

I never asked.

Rupert Isaacson: Would you?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

Could I know,

Rupert Isaacson: you know, I, in this
podcast, I want to get through your bio

and we haven't even gotten to, I know
that, you know, you spent time in the

Middle East and, and, and then come back.

Yeah.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Sequence,

Rupert Isaacson: right.

So I'm gonna, I'm gonna
hold the fairies for now.

I'm gonna request that we do a
separate podcast, just about that.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

' Rupert Isaacson: cause that's its
own universe and there's a lot of

things I would like to add and share.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: Particularly
in terms of time, things in the

Kalahari and so on and so on.

Curious

Emelie Cajsdotter: about that.

Rupert Isaacson: I think if we do
that, that's gonna be the entire

podcast and it should actually.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm intrigued.

I want to do one on ferry so bad.

Please.

Can we?

Yes, we can.

Okay.

Alright.

So, okay.

You're talking to, oh, one
last thing, it Scandinavia.

And I've, I've gotta ask trolls.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

Not, not the sort of fairytale
trolls I would never have seen,

Rupert Isaacson: but would you
say that there's a troll thing

that's different to the other
entities that you're talking about?

Yes.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

But not, not, it wouldn't be bad.

It would just be sort of big and more,

Rupert Isaacson: more mountainy.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Not ancestral
memories passed down by farming people

of hunter gatherers who were there
beforehand and perhaps wiped out or

consigned to the forest, who then
become the troll in the imagination.

The troll actually is the nature spirit.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Well, I
would believe both are possible.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So perhaps some amalgamation of the two?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

I, I think a lot of things are,
especially when they're being told about

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,

Emelie Cajsdotter: because, because
with the empathic into being,

you experience something and then
you pass it on and in the past

Rupert Isaacson: and imagine things.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

And, and in the passing on it will
go through my entire conditioning.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Got it.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Whether I like it or
not, and I can try to be as true as I

can to the source, but I also have to
respect that I am also my genetic self.

Right.

Rupert Isaacson: And I, I guess if
everything is light and everything is

love, and everything is energy, then we're
going to see that through the prism of

the lens that we are, which means that
we'll interpret it to look like this

or to look like that, or to say this,

Emelie Cajsdotter: yes, they have.

And how they keep, keep
telling their stories.

Rupert Isaacson: I am so tempted to
just go down this rabbit hole right now.

Troll.

I'm, I'm sorry.

It's, I really wanna talk about
you, but now it's like, well,

I wanna talk about trolls.

What are their stories quickly
before we go back to you.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Well, but
I think as humans, we always

think that we hold the sort of
centerpiece of, of, of the stories.

And, and well, we are

Rupert Isaacson: the
storytelling ape, right?

That is us.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

And, and we are the sort of we interpret
everything else, but we hold the sort

of facts, and we don't, I mean, they
would have their ancestry lines and

stories on how they got to earth and,
and the role that they're playing

and what they tell their children.

Right.

Which would affect,

Rupert Isaacson: we've got to revisit
this 'cause everything you say.

Then I say, well, what are
they telling their children?

What are their stories?

How did they get to earth?

What do they think about aliens?

You know?

Emelie Cajsdotter: No, I think it's like
we, we live a, a modern human being.

We have a very very
limited experience of time.

I mean, we stick to one version
and I mean, it's difficult enough,

so you can easily see how that
would feel a full lifetime.

But I still think we're,

I Yeah.

No,

Rupert Isaacson: I, I, I agree.

I'm, I, I, I'm loving, privileged
to live with people a bit who

are absolutely of the place.

Who do not see themselves as the
top of a hierarchy in nature.

Who that I do know that that's
the authentic human way to be.

And that's honestly the
only way to be happy.

Because to be inauthentic
is to be unhappy.

Right.

And we know that in our culture,
we are desperately unhappy.

Emelie Cajsdotter: We are.

Rupert Isaacson: Is, is why aren't
these, why aren't these entities

showing themselves to everybody?

Wouldn't it just be easier if
they just showed up in the living

room constantly and like, boy
lads out there, plant a tree.

Come on.

Emelie Cajsdotter: But maybe they do.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

Emelie Cajsdotter: I mean,
maybe it's not they, do they,

Rupert Isaacson: like, do they walk
around your living room or do you have

to go into the forest to see them?

Emelie Cajsdotter: I wouldn't say that
they tend to be in the living room.

They tend to be in nature.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

Quite close.

But your, your living room
is not far from nature.

Right.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Exactly.

Exactly.

So they, they would be around,

Rupert Isaacson: is there
anyone around you right now?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Mm, no.

Not in here.

No.

Rupert Isaacson: If there was a,

Emelie Cajsdotter: in the,
around the barn Just before

Rupert Isaacson: there were,

Emelie Cajsdotter: yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: What did they say?

Emelie Cajsdotter: They, they
were helping out with chickens.

Rupert Isaacson: What were
they doing with the chickens?

Emelie Cajsdotter: It seems like a lot
of things that we think is happening

by themselves, like leaves moving

cleaning, helping water it's,
it's like all these things that

we think is just sort of randomly
happening, like in a machinery.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Emelie Cajsdotter: They
seem to be involved in

Rupert Isaacson: What were they
doing with the chickens specifically?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Well, the chicken
barn is, is just about to be cleansed.

So they were just around some
chickens that are a little

bit weaker and sort of moving

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Things
around accordingly.

Rupert Isaacson: Man, I gotta,
we, we gotta revisit this.

We've gotta revisit this a lot.

Okay.

Listeners, we are going to, I'm not gonna
let Emily get away with not talking to

us in depth about fairies and trolls and
these 'cause I mean, the thought of having

to live without that is just too painful.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah, I know.

But let's,

Rupert Isaacson: let's just move on
now in your life so you're dancing

samba, you're talking to fairies,
you're giving acupuncture to your

horse, you're becoming a biologist

Emelie Cajsdotter: horse.

Why not?

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: What happens next?

Now, you're a young woman.

You head out into the world and

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: The pony
retires, by the way, dies.

Emelie Cajsdotter: No, no.

The pony is there.

The pony lives until the age of 36.

Perfect.

And may And, and, and, and is
the one who is founding this

whole sanctuary before she dies.

Okay, got it.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So she,

Emelie Cajsdotter: so her, her
dream is fulfilled when she dies.

She is very content.

Rupert Isaacson: Super.

Okay, so, so take us now.

You're at university, what happens next?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Not university.

It's like a college thing.

Rupert Isaacson: Alright.

Emelie Cajsdotter: I realize
that university will say

Rupert Isaacson: potato.

Yeah.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Because the
subjects I'm into is not there, so.

Okay.

And I'm not really very good
at sitting still indoors.

It totally actually does not work at all.

What happens is that or the next
thing I guess that happens is

that my grandmother kills herself.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Emelie Cajsdotter: When, no, at
some point since I was very young I

always felt that I I couldn't really
recognize myself in the mirror.

It was a bit confusing.

I should be, have red or black hair
and it didn't make sense that I was

blonde at that time and I knew that I
had some sort of connection to Ireland,

so I knew that I had to go there.

Rupert Isaacson: How did you know that?

Emelie Cajsdotter: I just knew

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Emelie Cajsdotter: That it's there.

There is something about
Ireland that I have to visit.

So my grandmother would naturally
say, oh, maybe you have a past

life there, so could be normal.

Well,

Rupert Isaacson: also from my point of
view, actually, I mean, we know that

all of us living between the North
Sea, the Baltic, the Irish Sea, the

Northwest Atlantic, we're basically
all the same tribal folk who've been,

Emelie Cajsdotter: we are

Rupert Isaacson: going back
and forth and back and forth.

So you think, oh, I'm from Sweden.

That's so far from Ireland.

It's like, no, it's not, you know?

Yeah.

It, it, people were traveling
back and forth and we're all

Viking Kelts sort of thing.

So pre presume.

Okay, so let's say it's in your ancestry.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

Somehow it's in my ancestry and I
go to Ireland and, and hitchhike

around Ireland at, I think I'm 16.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Or

Emelie Cajsdotter: 17 maximum 16 maybe.

And that is a very good experience
because I begin to realize that

I can trust my own feet sort of.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Emelie Cajsdotter: And maybe that is what
my grandmother is picking up on because

she has made a promise to my father to
look after me, and maybe she feels that

she doesn't have to look after me anymore.

I dunno.

But she tries to kill herself after
an argument with my grandfather.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Emelie Cajsdotter: That I think
deeply puts her in a situation of

questioning her whole life and.

Again, if we look at the women in that
side of the family, they are upper middle

class, highly intelligent, and have
no area to express themselves at all.

They are housewives and they hate it.

Her mother was the first woman in Sweden
who studied to become a doctor then.

Not a nurse, but a doctor.

Then she married someone and well,
she was in the class where the first

two in women, so there would be a few.

And then her husband, she got married,
her husband forbade her to continue the

studies, and she was then left with this
husband, no education, lots of kids.

And eventually she divorced in
a time when no one did that.

Rupert Isaacson: This is
your great-grandmother?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

So her dream is unfulfilled in a
way, and that is passed on to my

grandmother's dream who is unfulfilled.

And she ends up in the same situation.

The only story that is possible to
embody is the housewife outline.

And although she's doing this healing
and all these other things, she,

she has other dreams and she has
this growing bitterness, I would

say, that I could feel from her.

And she puts her entire
effort into her family.

And

Rupert Isaacson: what was her husband?

What did your grandfather do?

Emelie Cajsdotter: He was
an introvert professionally.

Yeah.

He was some sort of, yeah.

He was a professional introvert.

He was a, in, in a, he
was some sort of lawyer.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Emelie Cajsdotter: All in the head.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Emelie Cajsdotter: And he was a
really good at playing the violin.

Now, in, in an argument my grandmother
forbade him to play violin, so

he bought a cottage up in the
mountains outside of Gothenburg

where he would go and play violin.

And then why would

Rupert Isaacson: she forbid
him from playing violin?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Well,
there are so many questions.

I guess when you begin to
not live your story, you

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Want other people.

Do I prevent

Emelie Cajsdotter: others
from doing the same?

It's my, maybe my only

Rupert Isaacson: Did he prevent her
from having a career or anything,

or was it just that she felt,

Emelie Cajsdotter: I don't know.

I, I don't know if he personally
did or if it was just a patriarchal

society and he became a face of that.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

Emelie Cajsdotter: I would've
been too young to 'cause by,

Rupert Isaacson: by the sort of 1960s when
your grandmother would've been in, say,

her sixties or fifties, surely that was
breaking apart post World War ii, and,

Emelie Cajsdotter: but I think it's
all these other things, our self image

Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.

Our

Emelie Cajsdotter: ancestral stories
that continue until they don't.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Emelie Cajsdotter: All of these things.

An argument.

It turned out that my grandfather, she
put all her efforts into the family.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Trying
to create a meaning.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Emelie Cajsdotter:
Somehow is my conclusion.

And it turned out that he
had a love affair years back.

Mm-hmm.

And somehow that, although that wasn't
such a big thing, it wouldn't be

such a big thing by my standards, but
somehow it cracked a hole and made

everything just lose its value for her.

Rupert Isaacson: Even at that age.

Even at that, even

Emelie Cajsdotter: at that age,
she was 81 when she killed herself.

So she did a full attempt
and my grandfather found her.

He, she made him promise not to save
her, but he couldn't keep that promise.

So she survived and she was naturally
she was in the hospital being

guarded by a nurse because they
considered her so suicidal that

they didn't dare to leave her alone.

And all she wanted was to die.

And me, my mother and grandfather
was called to her bed and the

doctor said, you have to make
a decision as her closest kin.

We can keep guarding her
for as long as she lives.

But that would mean that
we force her to live.

If we let her out from here,
most likely she will try again,

and maybe she will succeed.

And the choice has to be yours.

And without even looking at each
other, and I mean, we are not people

that would communicate the rest of
the time, so it's not that we get on.

But we all simultaneously, I'm 17 at the
time say that we have to let her loose.

We can't force her to live.

It's undignified, it's impossible.

So it wasn't that many months after
that she succeeded in killing herself.

Rupert Isaacson: And your grandfather
then lived alone for the rest of his life.

My

Emelie Cajsdotter: grandfather, after
this happened, also being blamed for

the whole thing in a letter became
blind only days after she died and was

taken to an old people's home where
he sadly ended up starving to death

because he couldn't live with himself
after this event and also was not in a

position of being able to kill himself.

So he died very slowly in
a state of deep suffering.

Rupert Isaacson: He just stopped eating.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Course.

So poor people.

Gosh.

Yes.

Emelie Cajsdotter: It

Rupert Isaacson: just
seems so unnecessary to

Emelie Cajsdotter: It's unnecessary.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Around when you could just be in the
forest talking to the little people.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah, I know, I know.

It is unnecessary.

This, this whole.

Belief in suffering.

Pain I believe we all have in our lives.

And, and it, it's also even helpful as
much as we don't feel it at the time.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Emelie Cajsdotter: But suffering, I
would say something totally different.

Yeah.

In suffering, we have choices.

We might not, so it seems to be a

Rupert Isaacson: blindness, a
blindness to the, the, the, as you

said, the joy of creation of if, if,
if those nature entities are there,

trying to draw our attention back to
it constantly and saying, you know,

Emelie Cajsdotter: there is another way.

It's like this constantly
saying, there is another way.

It will make you a little happier.

Rupert Isaacson: Everything
doesn't better personal.

Yeah.

It's like, why, why is it
wanting to be about me?

Yeah.

But it's hard if Yeah.

Little people are not talking to you.

But although it seems that they sort
of were to your grandmother, so,

Emelie Cajsdotter: yes.

And did you see this Exactly, this
reasoning is what came to me after her

death e except of course, this huge grief.

But how could she have all that?

And it still wasn't
possible to live in herself.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Does that mean
that everything she said was wrong?

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Or is
life just a lot more complex?

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Yeah.

It's 'cause it would seem, it would
seem, if you had your eyes open to

those dimensions of reality, that it
would be hard to remain bitter because.

Just too interesting.

You know?

I mean, it's like, yeah, you
might, but I, it's also though,

Emelie Cajsdotter: it's also a constant,
you know, all of these spiritual

traditions where you have constant,
like in, in, in Islam and in the

surface they have thicker and you have
meditation and this remembrance, you

know, we have to constantly work on
remembering the source because, so

Rupert Isaacson: shamanic rituals,

Emelie Cajsdotter: yes.

Without the meaning.

We don't, we are overwhelmed,
again, with the reality around us.

So I think it's not really enough
to feel it once and then it's there.

It, it's helpful to feel it
once, because then it's easier

to find it the second time.

And if we find it the second
time, it's easier the third time.

But we still have to live with this
person that we are with a genetic story

that is up to me to transform as I play
my part in my little chunk of time.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Emelie Cajsdotter: And, and she
has given me a huge freedom.

So, although her story is tragic
in very many ways, she also, maybe

she couldn't open those doors for
her, but she could open them for me.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Okay.

Okay.

So she does that.

You go and then you go
to Ireland shortly after.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

I go to Ireland and I start to work
and live in Ireland on and off.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

And what do you do?

What do you do in Ireland?

Emelie Cajsdotter: I start by by riding
young Kura pos in the middle of Kura.

Rupert Isaacson: Perfect.

In the, on the Baren?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

On in the, like, yeah.

In, in county Galway Kamara
in a place called Cael.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, I
know, I know what that is.

Yeah.

Okay.

And that's to know

Emelie Cajsdotter: an old Celtic woman
in county Mayo, near a small town called

Anne who she doesn't live anymore.

Her name was Bina McLaughlin,
and she was a fierce thing.

Celtic speaking herb, woman
shepherd original human being.

And we became friends.

A very stormy type of friendship because I
think that would be the only way you could

have a friendship with such a character.

But I became her sort of friend
and student on and off for

years as well of on and off.

Yeah.

I would travel on and off too, the
student of of the Celtic traditions

of herbs and nature, spirits and
any other, everything she did.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Emelie Cajsdotter: And it
was mind blowing to meet.

I, I'm, I mean, I'm 17 and.

I know that I'm meant to be doing
this, and I've seen that it's

possible to follow your path, but to
see someone elderly, she was in her

seventies when I got to know her.

Really doing that and sort of standing
up for it and being completely outcast,

but still, yeah, it's possible.

I mean, she, yes, she really
showed me it's possible.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

And you would sort of come and
go from her homestead meanwhile,

her job breaking training horses.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes, and, and
I also, I mean, I'm still supposed

to be in school in Sweden and
I have the pony to look after.

Okay.

So I'm sort of circling
around these things.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

And where do you go from that point?

Emelie Cajsdotter: From that point,
there is one experience that is so

important that it has to be thrown in.

At this point, you know, I'm protesting
against everything in, in a sort of.

Not angry way, but I'm dancing constantly.

I'm always at some sort of
party drinking tons of alcohol.

Ne never taking any drugs
because I figured out two things.

If I find a drug that soothes my
inner pain, I will be on it forever.

So someone like me, it cannot try heroin.

It's, no, it would, yeah.

' Rupert Isaacson: cause
the problem is it works.

Yeah.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes, it works.

And I realized that it would work
brilliantly on me, so I can't take it.

Yeah.

And I would not be strong
enough to come off it.

Yeah.

And number two, if I would take any other
drug, it would be like disrespecting all

these experiences that I'm already having.

Mm-hmm.

So no drugs but a lot of dancing
and drinking and not much sleep.

Very, very intense living because I
explore all these areas at the same time.

Rupert Isaacson: Oh.

Emelie Cajsdotter: And then for
some reason, and I'm also, I have

this istic story in my family, you
know, of all these women trying

to find a way and unsuccessfully
living very unfulfilled lives.

So this is also a topic
that is constantly with me.

So one day I decide to
start to live in celibacy

and it's not for moral reasons
and it's not with a timeframe.

It's not a sort of vow
but I want to try it.

So I decide, I think I'm 18, maybe I
decide to live in celibacy and why this is

so important because I think it is about
identity and what prevents us from finding

our dreams could be all sorts of things.

And so I'm out in a bar, drinking
and dancing as usual, and I'm

being chatted up by some guy, and
I tell him halfway through the

conversation that, oops, wait a minute.

He probably thinks that we are gonna
go back after this to his place.

I need to tell him that I'm in
celibacy not to disappoint him.

So I say, by the way, nothing
more is gonna happen tonight

because I'm in celibacy.

And the change in his face all
of it, it was like watching the

sort of arm of a clock just shift.

And I became a person.

We, we became friends for years after
that until I left Gothenburg, actually.

And I remember walking outta that pub
in the middle of the night, in the

middle of Gothenburg City Center, seeing
all these advertisements, you know,

all these newspapers and films and
half naked women all looking the same.

And realized with full insight
that this is not my story.

This, this total freedom of not
belonging to having to fulfill that story

Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Is one of
maybe the most important things

that ever happened to me.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Because somehow
I, I, I got out of not only my, my

family's story of the women's roles,
but that whole cultural expectation

and it never really came back.

Rupert Isaacson: Did you stay in
celibacy for the rest of your life?

Emelie Cajsdotter: No, I stayed
in celibacy for maybe six months.

I can't even, it wasn't even a
big thing to break it, it was

just that I eventually met someone
that I wanted to break it with.

Right, right.

But that wasn't the point.

Yeah.

I see what the point was that
I realized that it's my choice.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Emelie Cajsdotter: And, and it totally
changes the way people perceive me.

Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

It's,

it's interesting that, as you say, to
go out and see all the advertising and

the, you know, now it would be even more

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

Intense with social media.

You are bombarded by them, you know?

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
no, you are, you are.

Okay.

So

Emelie Cajsdotter: I think that
makes sense in all the other stories.

Rupert Isaacson: So you are liberated.

You, you have this kind of,
wow, I don't have to be.

Shackled to those expectations?

No.

It's,

Emelie Cajsdotter: it's
got nothing to do with me.

Rupert Isaacson: What happens next?

Emelie Cajsdotter: What happens next?

Is that school is finishing.

And I have honestly not spent much
time in it, but I'm so happy when

it's over because I know that I'm
never going to be in a building again.

And, and my feeling throughout
school, the later years is that I

understand what the teachers want.

I understand what I need to give
them to get good grades, but if I

do that for reasons I can't explain.

If I do that, I'm going
to lose something else.

And what I will lose is going to prevent
me from doing what I'm meant to be doing.

So I'm resisting every possible attempt to

Rupert Isaacson: colonize you?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

Yes.

And, and to me, it's a fight for my life.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Emelie Cajsdotter: It's, I
begin to understand the ponies

fight in the writing scheme.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Yeah.

That's exactly what I was thinking of.

Emelie Cajsdotter: It's
a, it's a real fight.

You, it's, and it's constant, it's daily
to not be drawn into a reality that

I might never be able to get out of.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So you leave school?

Emelie Cajsdotter: I leave school.

And as we leave school, which in Sweden,
you finish school around in June.

Earlier that spring, two friends
of mine are going to Greenland.

They're going to Greenland fishing
and hunting and camping and just being

there for like two, three months.

And for some reason they ask me
if I want to come with them, which

of course I, I always found it
very hard to resist an adventure.

Rupert Isaacson: Irresistible.

Okay.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes, it's irresistible.

So, so I go to Greenland with them,
and that is life altering again,

because we are hunting and fishing
and camping and out in nature without

seeing traces of humans for weeks.

And finally I begin to feel good
like this underlying pain that has

always followed me through life is
not there when I'm in the wilderness.

So I finally realized that maybe
nothing is wrong with me, maybe

I'm just in the wrong environment.

Rupert Isaacson: How long
are you out in Greenland for?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Well, first we are
there for like two months, and then

they start working in a fish factory.

So they stay for a year, but I know
that I have to go back to this pony

and I know I want to study acupuncture.

And so I traveled by myself for the last
month and hitchhiking with a cargo ship.

To the north of Greenland and camping
then by myself, which is even better from

this wilderness experience perspective.

And also meeting amazing people
like the people on the cargo ship.

There was a moment when the cargo
ship left shore and I realized that

I'm the only woman, woman aboard,
and there are no mobile phones.

This is before all of that.

Not sure they would work there anyway.

And Hmm.

Was this really such a smart idea?

But it was a smart idea because
there were amazing people.

Rupert Isaacson: Were they Greenlanders
or were they, was it mixed?

Emelie Cajsdotter: They were a mixed
crew of Danish and Greenlandic in wheat.

Rupert Isaacson: When you're camping up
by yourself in the north of Greenland,

what are the, what, who do, what are
the nature entities that you meet?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Well, first I
think with Greenland is the vastness.

It's so huge.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Emelie Cajsdotter: And so all of
a sudden, your human perspective

is put in the right place.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Emelie Cajsdotter: You are tiny.

You are surrounded by species that
were there for so long before you.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Emelie Cajsdotter: That it's just, that
is sort of calming and, and the nature

spirits would be, except that there are
no trees, but there would be similar

beings coming out of the nature there.

Definitely.

Rupert Isaacson: Anyone that sticks
in your memory in particular?

Emelie Cajsdotter: No actually
not because the whole thing was

Rupert Isaacson: Did they come and
converse with you and show you things

or not in the same way that you'd
encountered them in the forest in Sweden?

Emelie Cajsdotter: No.

It would be similar.

And it's helping sort of where to find
water, how to find, you know, they

know the land, but they know everyone.

Rupert Isaacson: And
they're friendly to you.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

They're sort of harsh and friendly.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Sort of like Scandinavians.

Yes.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: Were the
Irish fairies different?

I mean, I've gone back
to the, I can't stop it.

I've got

Emelie Cajsdotter: no, I I, I would
agree that there is a remarkable

sense of cheekiness on the Irish side.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, we got it.

We gotta go back to this.

Alright.

Alright.

I'm gonna force myself
to stick to the timeline.

Now you, you, you have this, you, you go
deeply into the wilderness in Greenland.

This is amazing.

Yes.

You go, but then you go back, you
wanna study acupuncture, you wanna,

Emelie Cajsdotter: yeah.

Then I go back and as I fly back to
Gothenburg in only four hours as it takes,

the shock for the system to go back into
a city is the final sort of, alright.

And now Emily, you are out of the city for
everything that this place has given you.

And as correct that it was probably in
the preciseness exactly how it should be.

This is the end of city life forever.

And it was,

Rupert Isaacson: where'd you go then?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Oh, I did some sort
of odd jobs here and there working in

stables and barns and with cows and
horses and whatever to, and then I

went to the place where I live now.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Emelie Cajsdotter: So I was 21
when I moved to where I am now.

And decided to.

Sorry, because I failed
so completely in that.

My idea was to hide from the world.

Rupert Isaacson: Well done.

Yes,

Emelie Cajsdotter: well done.

And, and really grow potatoes, be,
you know, self-sufficient, live

in a sort of cyclic, harmonious
relationship with nature and never

be seen again, sort of thing.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Emelie Cajsdotter: And some of those
things went really well, but the never

seen again, part went totally bad.

Rupert Isaacson: Why did that go bad?

Why did that not happen?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Because
that's not what I really wanted.

And that's not what I It's

Rupert Isaacson: also not, it's not human.

Yeah.

Really.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Oh, no, it's, I
think what it was is that when you

have an awakening of any kind as
a human being, especially if it is

empathically and you realize what
we've done to this planet, I mean, we

can't really make any excuses for that.

I mean, we have done a
lot of destructive things.

I think one way of looking at it
is if I go into hiding and try to

interfere as little as possible,
I will reverse some of that harm.

But then when you communicate with
other species, that's not what they say.

They constantly convey that the
way for humans is to step back in.

Yeah.

It's, we're not, we're not
supposed to be less involved.

We're already shut off to, as much as is
doable that's not the way forward, the

way forward seem to interact, step back
in somehow live and, and, and share this

life with everyone else who is here.

Rupert Isaacson: How does that
evolve though, that, that you go from

this sort of lone, a hippie girl open to
things that other people don't seem to

opening up to offer other people
courses in how to do this?

Also running this big animal
rescue it's afer old jump.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

But the, the essence has always
remained, I'm still in the same

sort of tiny shoebox house, and
there is nothing glamorous about it.

It's not a huge profit.

So people are employed.

It's volunteers.

No, but what

Rupert Isaacson: I, what I mean is it's,
it sort of, it's a big jump to go to

saying, yeah.

Reaching out to your fellow man and
saying, I can show you how to do this.

I can show you how to.

Emelie Cajsdotter: It's, it's huge.

And if it was to relate this way, how, how

Rupert Isaacson: did that happen?

Emelie Cajsdotter: It was
the horses that started it.

I blame them.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Emelie Cajsdotter: But what, what
really happened is maybe we, we

need another podcast for that too.

Rupert Isaacson: We certainly
need another podcast.

Yes.

Emelie Cajsdotter: But that
was when I began to dream.

The more you spend time with other
species reality, you realize that

the human linear hierarchy and
domination is like a disease.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Emelie Cajsdotter: So if that
is the only way to interact with

domesticated animals, then I have to
stop living with domesticated animals.

And since I love all these animals
that live here, and I can't really

let them loose in the forest because
that's not the society we are in, then

I'm desperate to find another way.

So I put the question out to the
universe basically saying is domination

necessary in the handling of animals?

Because I really, really need to know.

And then I begin to dream.

I begin to dream about New Zealand
and go to the Maori people.

I dream about Jordan and end up with
the, with the Hashemite royal horses in

Jordan and other parts of the world to.

That eventually becomes a story of what,
what is, when there is no hierarchy

and domination, what actually could be.

And as that happens I think,
and I think that would maybe be

another podcast as well to maybe
dive into some of those events.

Then you realize that you don't
get such an adventure given to

you just to keep it for yourself.

It doesn't mean that you're on a mission.

It doesn't mean that I believe that
I'm right and, and others are wrong.

It's, it's none of that.

It's not a missionary thing.

But it would be wrong not
to make it available then.

I wouldn't have done my part.

Rupert Isaacson: So anyone who's listened
this far is gonna go, what happened in

Jordan and what happened with Amari.

Alright, ready?

Emelie Cajsdotter: We'll get to that.

We'll get to that.

Well, we're

Rupert Isaacson: somewhat
over the two hour mark.

My Yeah.

What I think we should do
is, I think we should pause.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: But I'm gonna pause
with a couple of questions and I

promise every listener provided Emily
agrees, which I'm gonna force it to

'cause I'm guilt people 'cause I'm hot.

Emelie Cajsdotter: I owe you anyway
for bringing me back into humanity.

Rupert Isaacson: Well.

Yeah.

Dunno if that's necessarily
a good thing, but

Emelie Cajsdotter: it's a good thing.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

We

Emelie Cajsdotter: have to believe,

Rupert Isaacson: you know,
questions come to mind.

Like you end up in Jordan with
the king's horses, blah, blah.

But I mean, that's hierarchical and

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes, exactly.

And that's sort of divine sense of humor,

Rupert Isaacson: right.

And you end up with a novel you never

Emelie Cajsdotter: thought
you would find a warrior

Rupert Isaacson: society.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: Also hierarchical.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

Very.

Rupert Isaacson: So there's
gonna be questions, clearly

there's some paradoxical
interesting stuff there, right?

Yes.

So here's what I want to do.

I want to pause and formulate the
questions, and I want to soon Bri

get to the next phase of the story.

So part two.

Yeah.

And also to listeners after that, after
I've nailed her down on the, the, those

travels and then what she learned then
how she's brought that back to Sweden and

what the classes are that you can attend.

For example I'm going to be following
Emily onto a sacred mountain and.

Talk to the mountain with her.

Yes.

This June, 2025.

And I think we, I think we're full.

Are we not with it

Emelie Cajsdotter: seems like we're
a bit over full, but you never know.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, what
I'm, what I'm thinking is I

think we'll do it again, right?

Yeah.

So, those of you who'd like to follow
Emily onto a sacred mountain in Western

Sweden, I dunno how you could resist.

There will be, there will be more.

Alright.

In the meantime, like how that stuff,

Emelie Cajsdotter: and I'm also,
I'm double checking with everyone

who is booked onto this one to
make sure that they're coming.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

And, and if there are any, if
there are any cancellations

or I will let everybody know.

But given that we are going to reconvene,
people will just from here want to

know how they can contact you now.

So can you just please give
everyone your contact info?

Like how, how do people?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

Or

Rupert Isaacson: more or less,

Emelie Cajsdotter: We have two
websites that has quite a lot on them.

The reason there is two is that because
one is related to the sanctuary and

the nonprofit organization and one
is related to how I also the, the

courses and the classes and the school,
because that is taxed differently.

So because of the tax
department, we have two,

Rupert Isaacson: but if people want to

Emelie Cajsdotter: interline,
so one is if somebody wants

Rupert Isaacson: to do
a course with you on.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Then
it is the how the fuck

Rupert Isaacson: to talk to the mountain,
let alone the plants and the horses.

What, yes.

What's that website?

Emelie Cajsdotter: That website
is miyo the way of compassion.com.

Rupert Isaacson: One more time.

Emelie Cajsdotter: MIO miyo.

The way.

Rupert Isaacson: MIO miyo.

The

Emelie Cajsdotter: way of compassion.

Rupert Isaacson: The
way of compassion.com.

MIO, the way of compassion.com.

Okay.

Yes.

Mio was, and your emails on there, right?

Horse?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

Mio was a horse that really put things
into practice how non-hierarchical

system can be put into practice.

So, okay.

And then the nonprofit and where
you sort of learn about the

sanctuary and storytelling and
these things is friends of miyo.com,

friends

Rupert Isaacson: of miyo, MIO Yeah.

Dot com All

man.

I can't wait to get there.

Mm-hmm.

What an extraordinary, what an
extraordinary human you are.

Alright.

I'm going to go

Emelie Cajsdotter: see how all
these things that are in one way

really negative and hard, they
really also play a part, you know?

Rupert Isaacson: Well, sure.

And I mean, it's.

To me, what, what comes across is that
the tragedy is not that difficult.

Things happen.

The tragedy is that life is not
lived as life should be lived.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Exactly.

Exactly.

Rupert Isaacson: So that, that deep joy,
you know, it just goes back to that,

that image of your, your grandfa
of your father rather if he had

lived in the authentic human pre
agricultural perhaps way mm-hmm.

Imagining him mapping out,
you know, a stone circle

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

With

Rupert Isaacson: it for the ex
with the excited participation

of the whole community.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

And, and, and the tragedy in that
he's one of so many, it's not that,

it's sort of a few Yeah, no, exactly.

That, that falls out.

It, it's the majority that
actually we've managed to create

a system where almost no one

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

And we're, we're supposed to
be not only in relationship to

each other because we're of the
planet, we're of the ecosystem.

We're supposed to be in constant
interspecies relation with about

300, 400 species surrounding us.

We're supposed to be in constant
relation with That's just animal species.

Yes.

Yes.

In constant relation with.

Our environment and we're not,
and we are grief stricken.

I think we're, I don't see how it's
possible to not be mentally ill.

I consider myself mentally ill.

Mentally.

Yes,

Emelie Cajsdotter: yes.

No, definitely

Rupert Isaacson: to because of
just the reaction to the extreme

pain of having to live that way.

And I'm lucky, I mean, I was on
my horses in the forest earlier

today looking at road air.

Yeah.

And even with that, you know, there's the
limitations that are involved, you know?

Yep.

So, and this thing of non-hierarchical
is so interesting because while it is

true that while I'm riding my horse,
I actually very much would like them

to go the way I need them to go.

And, you know, when there's a car coming
on the road, you know, not wander out into

the middle of the road, get, it doesn't

Emelie Cajsdotter: exclude
that because what exactly,

Rupert Isaacson: it's, it doesn't

Emelie Cajsdotter: exclude that, it,

Rupert Isaacson: it's, it's that feeling
of okay, do, do we feel that we both

kind of want to do this together?

Exactly.

If we do, then okay, let's work out just
as if I'm gonna follow you up a mountain.

Yeah.

Your gaff, it's your hood,
you know that mountain.

I'm following you.

We've agreed.

Because it would be just absurd for
me to try and lead that mountain.

'cause I dunno, the mountain, you know,
similarly, if, if you're walking in

my hood on the way to the supermarket,
I'll probably show you the way

just 'cause I want to know the way.

But, but

Emelie Cajsdotter: in balance of hierarchy
comes when we put a different value on it.

Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.

Well it's, it's deferring to expertise.

It's deferring to, experience, it's
saying, well, you know, okay, I,

I need to learn about this thing.

Let's say it's acupuncture, you know?

Okay.

I dunno from it, and Emily does, but
I'm gonna defer to her expertise.

That's just common sense.

And of course, as people get older,
you know, one wants to defer to

elders because they know more.

And we, and all of that is gone.

You know, we don't, we put our old
people in, old people parking, and

I know, it's just, it's just like
we couldn't get it more wrong.

And obviously, you know, many
people have said this over the

generations, we're not the first.

But it, it is so interesting
when you bring it into the focus

of a life, you know, and you
talk about your grandparents and

even up there

on the edge of civilization,
which, you know, Sweden is mm-hmm.

Because there is a point
like Canada, there's a point

beyond which it sort of stops.

Mm-hmm.

Even there.

Well, you know, so I think what we
would, what I'd like to revisit Okay.

In episode two is obviously the
rest of the story, and then how

from your travels, you get the
sanctuary going and what you do there.

And then I promise, promise, promise
listeners, we are going to do a

set, a series, a little series
on fairies, nids, dryads, trolls.

Yes.

And we're gonna go down that rabbit hole
time and we're gonna do it unashamedly.

And we're goingly and I don't
give a shit whether or not

anyone thinks it's real or not.

I couldn't give a flying
monkeys because I not,

Emelie Cajsdotter: neither can I,
I I just enjoy, enjoy, I think,

Rupert Isaacson: oh, it's such
a relief to me that one can

actually have that conversation.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

No, if it was up to what people I, if

Rupert Isaacson: you think we're away
with a fair, wouldn't even have begun.

We're, yeah.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

And we're not hiding it, so

go listen to something else.

You know, it's like when people want
to make animals here more obedient or

whatever, if they're on a class, it's
like, no, you can go to any farm all

over the world and people and animals
will do exactly what you want them to do.

Now you are in the one place
when that's not gonna happen.

Just don't be here.

It's not that hard.

Woo.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

And, and you know, in, in terms of the
safe functionality, again, like there I am

teaching somebody some dressage, or there
I am serving an autistic kid on my horse.

Yeah, sure.

I need, I absolutely need that
full buy-in from my client partner.

Yes.

However, I don't want to be his boss.

I am completely uninterested
in being anybody's boss,

Emelie Cajsdotter: and I'm sure he's
perfectly happy to be part of that team

a a lot easier when you do it together.

Rupert Isaacson: One thing that is
really interesting with this is I have

learned to hear when a horse is saying
no, and at first I thought that that

was not something you would be allowed
to respect, or if you did, there'd

be this unraveling of everything and

Emelie Cajsdotter: Exactly.

Chaos

Rupert Isaacson: and
people would be killed.

And then I was absolutely not.

Absolutely not.

Absolutely not.

No.

Is not no forever any more than
if you say to me, Rupert, do you

wanna walk the dog right now?

Or Rupert, do you wanna
cup of tea right now?

I might say yes, or I might say
no, but if I say no, it doesn't

mean I never want a cup of tea.

You know, it just means
a particular moment.

Right.

And, and to learn to discern
in, in, in, in that way.

And of course in the hunter gathering
context, the animals do have that

autonomy, but in agriculture they don't.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes, exactly.

There's something happening in that shift.

Rupert Isaacson: And so, you know,
if we can be now able to sort of

post agriculture, be able to bring
ourselves back into that relationship.

But not only as hunters

Emelie Cajsdotter: No, exactly.

Rupert Isaacson: Or as medicine,
but just in interaction.

But that doesn't also have
to be an extreme thing.

Oh, now we're not allowed
to ride the horses anymore.

Even put a bit in your mouth.

Emelie Cajsdotter: It's not
that it's not that easy,

Rupert Isaacson: too extreme

Emelie Cajsdotter: or it's, it's,
it's changing your intention.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

Emelie Cajsdotter: It's not so much
changing the outer circumstance

as you might first think.

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

But it's very rare to have a
conversation like this in which

that type of discernment is made.

Usually when one has a
conversation like this, it's one

extreme or the other extreme.

Yes.

Yes.

It's so incredibly refreshing,
Emily, to be able to talk about stuff

that sounds completely nuts from an
absolutely common sensical point of view.

So that then one can get to,
well, is it okay to ride my

horse or is it okay to Yes.

You know, for us all to be
setting these flexible boundaries

with each other mm-hmm.

Species.

And I think, you know, where I was
at the beginning of this, where I was

saying, you know, when people say I'm
an animal communicator or whatever,

and I'm always so skeptical because it
always seems I personal to that human.

It's like, is it really?

You know

Emelie Cajsdotter: what,

Rupert Isaacson: to me?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

And, and I think maybe.

What you are unaware of or what
people are unaware of is that maybe

the actual contact point was real.

But the minute my brain picks
up on what I'm experiencing,

my interpretation starts.

And if I'm unaware of that, I
will believe in my interpretation.

So I will actually think that the horse
is really saying that because my brain

is so fast in experiencing everything
as real, whether it's true or not,

Rupert Isaacson: you know, I was just
having a conversation, actually, oddly

enough, with another Swedish friend
who I'm gonna be doing a podcast

with, and her autistic daughter,
who I've known for many, many years.

And, and Lena, her daughter is
a Helena, is, is is her mother.

They live in New York, but
they're Swedes non-speaking.

Mm-hmm.

A lot of people listening will be
aware of the current thing going

wrong called the telepathy tapes.

I dunno if you've come across those, but

Emelie Cajsdotter: heard about them.

Rupert Isaacson: Very,
very worth listening to.

Massively.

But basically yes, people not speaking,
it turns out seeming to be able to

do it on a, on a telepathic level.

Okay.

And then speaking through people they
love, parents trusted, but then realizing

that sometimes what the p the as the P.

People pick up and become a filter
then exactly what you said, the

interpretation and thoughts of the person
who's then the filter begin to cloud.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yep.

Rupert Isaacson: What's said and then
what ends up being said might or might

not be what the original person was.

Yeah.

People are learning how to navigate this.

Mm-hmm.

Fascinating.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: That we could
do the same with animals.

Emelie Cajsdotter: Definitely.

Rupert Isaacson: Alright, well, okay.

We better make another date, haven't we?

Emelie Cajsdotter: Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: In that case, I'm gonna,
I'm gonna hit the end recording button.

So, listeners just know
this is only the first one.

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