Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.

Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New
York Times bestselling author of

The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.

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So now let's jump in.

Welcome back to Re Ride Free.

I've got Jared Anderson, the author
with me today, and lots of people have

been asking me to get him on the show.

Why?

Because he writes amazing
nature with the imagination.

Stuff you like cryptids, you like if
you dunno what crypts are, you kind of

will by the end of this you like real
nature, but mixed with your imagination.

You maybe are stuck somewhere feeling
you can't get into nature, but how

does one ima one's imagination?

Take one in there.

How do you enter your own private Narnia?

I think we've got the bloke here who's
got some decent roadmaps to that.

And he's been successful at it.

So he's someone who has also been able
to self-actualize, if you like, through

his imagination, and I think there's a
lot we can all learn from him in terms

of our own attempts to do the same.

So, Jared, thank you
so much for coming on.

Please tell us who you are, what you do,
why you do it, and how you got there.

Jarod Anderson: Thanks Ru.

Good to be here.

Yeah.

So where to begin?

So right now I'm a,
I'm a full-time writer.

I out of sort of a small
town in Ohio in the us.

And how I got here was, was a
bit of a winding, a winding trek.

I've always loved writing
and words and imagination.

I have a vivid memory of being
10 years old and I had a very

influential teacher named Miss Willard.

Used to take all of us 10 year olds
and hurt us out behind the school

and let us go into the woods.

There was a huge hill beside this
school that we called the Land Lab,

and she would read Mary Oliver poetry
to us and then give us notebooks and

then say, Hey, just go find a place
to sit and write about what you see.

And I was hooked.

So I've written nature, poetry and, and
dabbled in nature writing ever since ever

since I understood the value of sitting
still and letting my imagination meet

what I found out in the, out in the world.

But flash forward from that experience
as a 10-year-old, and I was a

person who did and still do struggle
with chronic major depression.

I grew up in an environment
where we really were not

encouraged to talk about it.

So it was a silent and
unacknowledged presence in my life.

Where was that for a very long time?

Was that, what's that?

Rupert Isaacson: Where was
that where you were growing up?

Jarod Anderson: Rural Ohio.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Jarod Anderson: So kind of small town.

Rupert Isaacson: Stoic wasps.

Yeah.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

You bet.

Yeah.

And especially, especially the
men folk were not encouraged to

have feelings or talk about them.

Rupert Isaacson: No.

You're supposed to go and quietly end
your life with a shotgun behind the barn.

Yeah.

Jarod Anderson: Yes.

Yeah.

Not

Rupert Isaacson: complain about it.

Yeah.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

I mean, feelings, you know, you can
have like anger that would be okay.

That's true as true a feeling.

But

Rupert Isaacson: Provided
you kick someone's ass.

Jarod Anderson: Yes.

Or,

Rupert Isaacson: or silently fme.

Yeah.

Yeah,

Jarod Anderson: yeah.

Absolutely.

So it got a little awkward for me here and
there as somebody who once missed football

practice because I won a poetry contest
and got to the awards, awards ceremony.

So I think I was always confusing
to people 'cause I didn't fit

into one camp necessarily.

Mm-hmm.

So, you know, because of the mental
health issues, because I, I sort of

never learned the skills of addressing
them or acknowledging them, which

would be the first step to opening
the door to getting more help.

I really kind of stuffed it down
where it could simmer quietly.

Sometimes it was more intrusive
and sometimes it was less.

And I kind of faked my way
through building a career.

I did a, a bachelor's in literature
and then a master's, and I taught

English for a little while.

Rupert Isaacson: So you always
knew you wanted to write?

Jarod Anderson: Yeah, I mean, as soon
as I really understood what it was.

And, and then when I paired that
understanding with me as a little kid

in the eighties with like a big tape
deck, and I would rent these, these

puffy book on tape books from the
library I remember those, you know, I'd

borrow 'em and especially The Hobbit.

So it was, you know, under the
covers after everybody was asleep.

I've always had insomnia and so
I would just be listening to,

to these fantastical stories.

And and then when I realized it was a
craft, it wasn't just this, this thing

where I could open a portal and see
into another world, it was, it was a

craft that I could, I could actually
bring that to other people and to myself

that was intoxicating from the start.

So, it, it took a little while for me
to think of it as a possible profession.

'cause I, I had no real
role models near me.

Rupert Isaacson: Sure.

And breaking into writing
successfully is not an easy thing.

Jarod Anderson: I mean, it's, it's really,
I can't even say it was ever a plan.

You know, we'll get to it, but I'm,
I'm excited to be there now, but

I'm always a little bit surprised,

Rupert Isaacson: right.

Jarod Anderson: But

Were

Rupert Isaacson: you doing everything
else along the way, working, construction,

doing all that kind of thing that one
does as a writer to become a writer?

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

And, and at first I didn't like school.

My parents didn't go to college.

I tried to go when I was 18 and basically
failed out, was put on probation.

And looking back on it, it's because
I had no idea why I was there.

It was that I had other friends that
were going and it seemed like the thing

to do, but I got there and, you know, I
didn't want to go to class and I didn't

want to get up early, and I didn't want
to do anything that felt arbitrary, which

doesn't play well with academia, you know?

And so I, I left, I, I did take
jobs in construction and real

estate and all over the place.

Mm.

I worked at a factory making rakes once

Rupert Isaacson: And always Did you
get to tread on one and bang your nose?

Jarod Anderson: What's that?

No.

Rupert Isaacson: Did

Jarod Anderson: you get to

Rupert Isaacson: tread and
one and bang your nose?

Jarod Anderson: No, these were like
the plastic, the big lawn rakes.

So it was getting the plastic heads out
of the press and they were hot and you had

to like, trim the, the excess fun stuff.

But then years later sort of in my
mid twenties, I went back and then

was a good student because I had some
understanding of myself and what I wanted.

And I had started dabbling with little
night classes at, at a local college

and realized, oh, okay, if I can do
this in a way where what I'm doing is

talking about books and stories and
writing and find a community centered

around that, that was what I needed.

And so then I really lit up with it.

But I, again, I think going off movies
and tv, thought to myself, okay, I

need to be a literature professor.

That's the respectable gig I can get
where I'm allowed to just think about

words and stories and books all day

Rupert Isaacson: and
actually pay the rent.

Yeah,

Jarod Anderson: yeah.

But after doing the masters and teaching
for a few years, I started to understand

that like, the job was to teach, you
know, a hundred students a semester

and then you go home and you have these
piles of, of a hundred essays written by

people who did not want to write them.

And I found it.

That when I did that as my day job,
I did not wanna write in the evening.

Right.

I was so sick of words

Rupert Isaacson: that
would make you allergic.

I could see that.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

Yeah.

The the last thing I, I would wanna
do after finishing my obligation

was to sit back down at a, at a
computer or, or, you know, open

the journal and, and try to write.

So I left academia and did the thing
that people who leave academia in,

in English often do, which is, I
went to marketing and nonprofit work.

And I actually ended up on the other
side of the desk as an administrator

at Ohio University, working as my, my
title was Director of External Relations.

So it was marketing
and fundraising and pr.

It was the which does

Rupert Isaacson: involve telling stories.

Yeah,

Jarod Anderson: yeah, yeah.

It was sort of the business side mm-hmm.

Of being a, a words guy, a storyteller.

But during that time, my, my
mental health issues really came

to a head and really got bad.

Partly because, you know, I had a
director title, which was like, I

had climbed the ladder to sort of the
logical end point, and I thought I was

sort of staring down the barrel of the
next 40 years and thinking, this is it.

Huh.

My, my job was meetings
about other meetings.

Theoretically there was a storytelling
component, but that wasn't the day to day.

And all of this is happening under the
umbrella of this major depression that

I just had never done anything about.

Mostly because of shame.

You know, some part of me understood
that there were experts in medical

professionals, people who dedicated
their lives to support for the sort

of mental health issues I was having.

But no part of me wanted
to talk to those people.

And so I blamed it all on the work.

And then I, I found myself in this,
this place of intense privilege where my

wife Leslie knowing my struggles, just
sort of said, Hey, quit, you know, we

have health insurance through my job.

Like, we'll be fine.

Quit.

Like, what does

Rupert Isaacson: she do?

Jarod Anderson: She was
also a marketing director.

She writes horror novels.

And, and I met her she was
doing a master's in poetry.

I met her in grad school.

So she, she gets it in terms of
writing and my relationship with it.

And yeah, she just,
you know, it was scary.

It's not as if we were well off, but
she, she just sort of said, this is.

She could see the, the weight on me from
those, those months and years and, and

just she had to talk me into it really.

But I did, I quit.

And that really began this process
of reconnecting with things I, I knew

when I was younger, like prioritizing
time in nature, prioritizing

creativity, taking it seriously.

And then the scary new stuff,
which was I started to talk to

people about suicidal ideation.

I started to talk about depression.

I, I, I went to a doctor.

I eventually started going to a counselor.

And, you know, that, that has
made all of the difference for me.

But this, this strange thing
happened 'cause I really focused

on the mental health aspect first.

And, you know, I, I found a medication
that kind of helped take the edge off.

I found a counselor
who I felt like got me.

He was this, this dude with a big
gray beard who always disappeared to

the Smoky Mountains for vacations.

And, you know, I could talk to him
about he, he had the same feeling as

I did about being out in the woods,
but he kinda got me to understand

that all of the stuff I was doing for
depression, was geared toward bringing

me back to neutral, bringing me back
to sort of a level playing field.

And that's not the same as
happiness or contentment as a skill.

And there was this odd moment in trying to
troubleshoot my own brain, my own point of

connection with reality, where I thought,
you know, what does make me happy?

Where does contentment lie?

You know, if the disease is
under control, then what?

Or so what?

And I started to go back to the
woods in an intentional way.

I grew up with a mother who would
take me on nature walks most days,

and we were never religious, but
she called the woods, her church.

And we would go and see what was blooming
or we would go gather mushrooms or

find an interesting skull or, you know,
it was just sort of a daily thing.

And, and yet when I was career focused and
when I was dealing with all these mental

health issues, I started to think of that
stuff as juvenile or that it was like

locked in a glass case labeled childhood.

And there was this awkward period of
reconnection where I would go to the

woods and think, I, I'm doing this wrong.

I don't know the names
of what I'm looking at.

I'm gonna fail the quiz when
I get back to the parking lot.

And somebody asked me what species I saw.

You know, I don't know what it was.

But it was this fear of doing it wrong.

It was the kind of capitalist pressure to
always be productive that would tell me

that there was no, no way to justify just
going to the woods to connect with nature.

But I did.

I did.

And I started to do this little
podcast called the the Crypto

Naturalist, which was me thinking,
all right, I wanna reconnect with

my creativity in a serious way.

What, what would I do if I was just
playful and did exactly what I wanted?

And I thought, all right.

I love nature.

I love these single voice nature shows.

I grew up with there's Marty Stauffers,
wild America and David Attenborough.

You know, there were so many certainly
Steve Irwin and I was like, I'm

gonna do that, but I'm gonna leave
facts out of the room entirely.

I'm gonna do a love letter to
nature and these nature shows,

but I'm gonna invent everything.

I'm gonna bring in that fantasy aspect.

I love from listening to
The Hobbit under the covers.

So the crypto naturalist was this guy
who loved nature, but it was cryptids.

So things like Bigfoot,
the Loch Next Monster.

But I never did any established cryptids.

I wanted each episode to introduce
people to something entirely new

so that they could always have
that, that moment of surprise.

Something that you had

Rupert Isaacson: invented or a, a really
obscure crypted from another culture

that they might not have heard of

Jarod Anderson: it.

It was almost always
something I invented entirely.

Like I didn't want to be
beholden to any source material.

Rupert Isaacson: Give us
some examples, please.

Jarod Anderson: Oh, geez.

There was one that was
the orbital King Fisher.

Is this or

Rupert Isaacson: the kingfisher?

Tell

Jarod Anderson: us about that.

Yeah, so like, if you can picture a,
a kingfisher sort of a, a diving bird

that, that hovers above ponds and
lakes and then dives in to grab a fish.

Okay.

This was that, but it was in lower orbit.

It was this huge bird that was kind of
shimmering and, and looked like it made

of, of fractal pieces like a prism.

And it hovered above the earth and it
would dive down into these mountain lakes.

And then what it would come up with
was sort of an Eldridge horror, you

know, it would come up with these
things that were mostly mouth and the

person seeing it didn't understand
how that could work in physical space.

So I like these creatures who
mirror something in real nature.

Are also totally outside it.

Rupert Isaacson: Just tell me
again, what, what, what did

it come outta the lake with?

Jarod Anderson: Something that was
like, looked like mostly shadow and it

was covered with mouths and so it, and

Rupert Isaacson: that was its prey?

Jarod Anderson: Yes.

So it And what was the
name of other strange

Rupert Isaacson: that it was after?

What was the name of?

Jarod Anderson: Didn't have a name.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Jarod Anderson: You know,
it hunted other things.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It, it hunted other like

Rupert Isaacson: instable things.

What think non shadow represents
is that like, do you think in your

subconscious, you were thinking about,
for example, a almost like a sort

of divinity that can take the shit
side of human experience out of earth

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Happens to
be buried in that these lakes.

And is that sort of the
metaphor for what's going on?

And wouldn't it be nice if these
divinities came and took these

shit sides of our shadow pollution?

Yeah, we might,

Jarod Anderson: yeah.

I'll tell, I'll tell you them.

Rupert Isaacson: Something like that
is, is that what's going on with,

Jarod Anderson: so in this case there
is sort of like a meta narrative where

I have these species that are kind
of, guardians of Earth in different

ecosystems, these singular creatures.

And so they will hunt things that
are, are kind of, an invasive

species from outside our reality.

And so the whole thing to me is
sort of a metaphor for the way

nature seeks balance and adapts
and sort of, takes care of itself.

Rupert Isaacson: Nature,
including the human psyche, right?

Jarod Anderson: Oh, absolutely.

The balance.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,

Jarod Anderson: yeah.

And so, you know, in the, the
cosmology, the, the world of, of

that, that podcast, there are these
guardian creatures that own sort

of specific regions and ecosystems.

Like there's one for the
Appalachian Mountains.

Tell me

Rupert Isaacson: about
the Appalachian one.

Jarod Anderson: Ah, well that
one is is the horned wolf,

is what I, what I call him.

And I can't tell you too much
about him because he's he's a

major subject of the, the novel I
have coming out in, in February.

Okay.

Which is just, which is just false.

What

Rupert Isaacson: is, what is the
name of this novel that's coming out?

Jarod Anderson: Strange Animals.

Rupert Isaacson: Strange Animals.

Jarod Anderson: And that's
coming from Valentine books

Rupert Isaacson: As two
reading lists immediately.

Yes.

Says man, who spends
lots of time on planes.

Yeah, yeah.

Jarod Anderson: Well, it's, it's,
that story is about, it's kind of the

backstory of the main character, the

Rupert Isaacson: podcast.

Okay.

But why did you come up
with the horned wolf?

What, what basically does the horned
wolf do without, you know, we'll

still buy your book, but come on.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

He does the same thing that the
orbital Kingfisher does, but he

does it beneath the mountains.

The Catskill Mountains.

The Appalachian mountains.

He goes

Rupert Isaacson: under the earth.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

He's he essentially looks like the
skeleton, like a, a, a grizzly bear sized

skeleton of a timber wolf, except that he
has flesh that is like, coalesced shadow,

but there's never quite enough of it.

So sometimes he will have the face
of a wolf with the ears of a wolf.

Sometimes that flesh will roll back
and it will be a bear wolf skull.

Rupert Isaacson: Why does he never
quite have enough shadow flesh?

Where's the scarcity there?

Why, why?

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

Yeah.

I think, I think what I'm playing
with there is if you look at.

What the mountains are, the Appalachian
mountains that are older than the moon.

Mm-hmm.

You know, they're, the Appalachian range
is in Scotland and it's in the US You

Rupert Isaacson: said
they're older than the moon?

Jarod Anderson: Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There we

Rupert Isaacson: have to
return to that in a minute.

Okay.

Jarod Anderson: Keep going.

The Appalachians were around on Pangaea,
you know, when there was one continent

and so you can trace where those mountains
are in Scotland and in the US because,

Rupert Isaacson: but people assume, I
think that the moon has always been here

as a planet, as an offshoot of our planet.

So you're gonna have to come back
to why the moon is not as hard.

Alright.

Yeah.

But not, but I'm just
gonna hold you to that.

I've also got questions about
Mary Oliver that we want to go

back to, but, alright, good.

So the Appalachian mountains
older than the moon.

All right.

But why has this creature
not quite got enough flesh?

Jarod Anderson: If I think of
what the mountains are, I think

of all of the sort of inert rock.

Mm-hmm.

And yet my nature loving brain
sees a kind of life in stone that

isn't the same as biological life.

But there's still some sort of essential
wholeness to the universe that feels

like life and, and sort of spirituality
to me, in the rocks in the same way

that I might sense in a pine tree.

I guess I was pointing out with the horned
wolf that, that, that rigidity, like I

wanted to always see the skeleton, like
the scaffolding beneath, because if I'm

thinking of a creature that is of the
mountains I like that there's always

like the rigid curve of a, of a pelvis
or a spine or a skull showing, right?

Rupert Isaacson: Like the shoulder of
the rock showing under the moss or the

Jarod Anderson: Yes.

Yeah.

So that, that shadow, like
it is a creature flesh.

It does, it does represent and
protect the living things, but

it's also of the mountains in a
way, way that, and what does it

Rupert Isaacson: hunt?

What does it need?

Jarod Anderson: Oh, so many things.

The premise is that much like in
the real world, we struggle with

invasive species sending ecosystems
out of balance in a metaphysical way.

I wanted there to be invasive
species that were always kind of

knocking on the door of reality.

And because the Appalachians are
so old, I thought like that there's

a rich pantheon of, of things
from the outside trying to get in.

And I'll often talk about it in you
know, sort of an essential otherness

to the creatures that are from outside
reality and nature that, that this

wolf is, is always hunting and eating.

Rupert Isaacson: So again, he's
trying to, he's trying to or

she is trying to secure harmony.

Jarod Anderson: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: Because harmony is
always being so restoring balance.

'cause balance is always being
lost and it's, it's that,

Jarod Anderson: It's balance is always
being lost, regained, reimagined.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

Jarod Anderson: But, you know, balance
is struck by, you know, opposing forces.

And so if I'm gonna create a fictional
world in which there are really serious

threats from the outside, then you
know, I need a, a very serious predator

guardian pushing back against that force.

Rupert Isaacson: Got it.

Jarod Anderson: And, and all of that,
you know, it all arose from that

first decision to, to do exactly what
I wanted, which I often find is the

most successful creative path of, of
trying to get out of the way of my own

enthusiasm and, and not interrogate it.

You know, too much of
like, why am I doing this?

What's the point?

But just thinking, all right.

I feel enthusiastic
about these nature shows.

I feel enthusiastic about mingling
the fantastic with the sense

of fantastic in the nature.

I, I know and love and observe every day.

I was

Rupert Isaacson: There, there is, as
you know, a, a a a a sort of philosophy

within the philosophy of manifestation
to say that, you know, you must always

follow when they say follow your passion.

It's really follow your excitement.

What makes you feel excited,
what makes you feel joyful.

If you follow that, you'll probably
get there because you will keep going.

And if you don't, you probably won't
'cause you'll get pissed off and stop.

Jarod Anderson: Oh yeah,
that's, that's so true.

You know, I, I've definitely started
novels I didn't finish and usually

it's because the kernel of the idea
wasn't as exciting as I thought it was.

Rupert Isaacson: Luckily, they
sometimes get recycled into

the later novel that comes.

But no, I agree with you.

And just for those of you, by the
way, who are busy giving up on

your novels, don't worry lads.

We understand.

Yes.

But don't assume that's
wasted writing at all.

It will, it will bear
fruit in your next thing.

I just want to talk about this moon
being older than the Appalachian things

I, 'cause I had to quickly get on
Google while you're talking, and of

course it says the moon here is 4.5

billion years old and it says the
Appalachians are approximately

480 million years old now.

Course this is just what I just pulled
up on Google, so it doesn't mean

it's true, but when you say the moon
is older than the, the app or the

Appalachians are older than the moon.

What do you mean?

Or is that almost more an
an imaginary construct?

Jarod Anderson: Yeah, maybe
I'm, maybe I'm misremembering.

I, I know that at one point I
wrote a little, little essay about

the Appalachians and I remember
them being older than, than

Bones and older than warm blood.

And I thought the moon was in there
too, because yeah, at some point

the Earth is what, six, six point
something billion and at some point

there was like a, a huge impact.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, and there's
some people who say that the moon

is just an, a hollow space station
for various types of aliens who

the, the lizard people or whoever.

And if you throw rocks, love
that it, it resonates and rings

'cause it's hollow on the inside.

And people say all sorts
of things about the moon.

Right?

So I don't see wine in one's imagination.

Two, one couldn't have a
mountain range that's older

than that, older than the moon.

But,

Jarod Anderson: It's, it's, it's funny,
I I sometimes love those age comparisons.

Yeah.

You know, like, like, sharks being older
than trees was one that I latched onto

for a while, or, you know, in Halloween
I would, I would post something like,

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

Jarod Anderson: You know, tentacles
are older than, than leaves.

So, you know, sweet dreams

Rupert Isaacson: it seems, and what
I'm pulling up on Google now is, is

ev it seems to be telling me that
the earth and the moon are about 4.5

billion years old.

And that the Appalachians are 400, but
480 million, it's still pretty old.

I mean, it's, it's older than.

If the Cretaceous period of the
dinosaurs is what, 60 million, you

know, and then you're going back,
you're going back, you're going back.

And what's interesting too is I think
that it, there comes a point where these

things are almost moot because in our
experience, like from my mind, if, if

one believes that the moon is a God or a
goddess, or if the moon is an alien space

station, or the moon is you know, younger
than a mountain range, or these things are

I think we're allowed to
have mythologies and mm.

You know, I, it it'd be very
interesting, wouldn't it, if we, if

I was interviewing now somebody who
was, you know, from a culture that

believed that the moon was a goddess.

And I said, well, that's rubbish.

'cause it's like someone might
say, well, Rupert, you're racist.

You know, because that's,
that's their belief.

Mm.

So I, I totally actually get that the,
that belief systems are really important.

And that they're also true.

I think they're all true
to a certain degree.

And I think, I think that's the
important thing about, about writing

like yours, you know, if someone say,
well, it's fantasy about cryptids.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: And you can say yes, yes.

And at the same time, this is a
product of the modern human brain.

Reinterpreting a mythology
of nature as well.

And it's also, you know, a
metaphor on mental health.

And it's also a metaphor on where we are
in our relationship with nature right now.

And in finding ourselves
precariously balanced.

And, and, and, and, and why can't it
not be all of these things at once?

Why, why, why does it have to
always be a hard and fast dry sort

of allopathic, you know, thing?

'Cause I don't believe that's the
way the world works, you know?

You know what I mean?

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

You know, I'm, I'm, I'm so often looking
for points of unity and it's zooming

in and zooming out is a thing that I
like to do in kind of my own, my own

practice in both imagination and mental
health of like, you know, if we zoom

out further about me misremembering even
the Appalachian Mountain thing, right?

It's like, all right, but the rocks of
the Appalachian are older than the moon,

but the moon is also of those rocks.

Indeed.

Like how far back do we wanna go about,

Rupert Isaacson: about the arrangements?

Well, I mean, that's the thing that
the moon and the earth are the same.

And the, and the moon was a bit of
earth that broke off or something.

Well then it is of those mountains.

And those mountains are of it.

Jarod Anderson: Which I love,
you know, I love, I love yeah.

Kind of looking up at the moon
and thinking of it as distant and

disconnected and then, and then taking
a moment to think, well, not really.

But then you can sort of do that
with any aspect of the universe

is, is the way I, I often view it.

Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.

Jarod Anderson: Because connectedness has
become something of my, my spirituality

in general that has developed in
concert with the mental health practices

we're, we were talking about the novel,
but, you know, the first writing that

really, that really found me an audience
was I would write nature, poetry and

poetry about, about mental health.

And that built up a surprising
social media following for me.

And then a lot of people would reach
out to me and wanna talk about their

own, their own mental health struggles.

And that led to me writing a book
called Something in the Woods.

Loves You.

Rupert Isaacson: That was what
I was next gonna ask you about.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

So that really arose out of those
conversations where I was getting a lot of

these messages from people who, and, and
sometimes especially men sent me a, a kind

of message that I, I recognized myself in
as the sort of hesitance to talk about it.

And the idea that I was talking about it
I think they, they were either directly

or indirectly asking me how I got there.

But I said to my wife, like,
messages on Instagram were not the

best context for this conversation.

Like I, I, I needed to take these people
on a camping trip, like we needed to

talk about it for, for days and days.

Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.

Jarod Anderson: And so I started
to talk about it as the long talk.

And, and Leslie, my, my wife,
said like, all right, well,

you know what this is then.

This is a book.

And I just had a, a fortuitous moment
where the publisher, timber Press,

who, who does Nature Books of all
Stripes, reached out to me and said,

Hey, we, we really like your poetry.

Have you ever thought about nonfiction?

And I, I could say, well, here's an
outline and here's the first six chapters.

So I was just in this, this position to
accept their, their offer to take a look.

And that book is really my
thoughts on, on my journey of, of

getting a handle on mental health.

But it is focused on my
relationship with nature locally.

The book's divided into four seasons,
and then each of the seasons has five

chapters titled After a Planter Animal
That, that I have a, a relationship with.

And so each one weaves metaphor
between nature and, and the self

and my struggles with mental health.

And you know, I, I was nervous writing
that book because I didn't wanna

tell people I had it all figured out.

That sort of wasn't the point.

I didn't want to universalize
my experience and say,

this is the way to do it.

I, I, I had one review I really
liked that said the book was a

me too, not a how to that Okay.

That I really appreciated.

And it still felt so important to me
because I felt so alone and isolated and

in my own struggles I didn't talk about.

So I really wanted to be
open and vulnerable and, and

put it out into the world.

Rupert Isaacson: Some, someone who
is becoming a nature writer, who's,

who's a good friend of mine and has
also has a social media following.

She's called Jane Pike, who's New Zealand.

Yes.

She often talks about how when you're
going through the landscape and

observing the landscape or admiring
the landscape, what if the landscape

is observing and admiring you?

And, you know, I think many people, we,
you know, awe is something that's been

talked about a lot now and the healing
power of being in that state of awe where,

you know, one's own problems melt away
in the face of, you know, the oneness

of the universe, blah, blah, blah.

The.

Idea though of feeling small and
sometimes perhaps a bit threatened by

being not the top of the food chain
or, you know, potential potentially,

you know, washed away by that wave
or fall off that cliff or whatever.

Which leads to that or I don't
think many of us get the message

very often that the landscape is
really benignly relating to us.

But the reality, and she's pointed this
out and I think she's right, this is

where I was very interested in your
writing and your perspective, was that

well, actually no, most of the time what
nature is trying to do is keep us alive.

Mostly it's trying to provide us with
foods, it's providing us with medicines,

it's providing us with warmth and shelter.

It's providing us with what we need.

Mm-hmm.

And whether that's our gut biome
or whether that's the mountain

that's sort of what it's doing.

And it does mean that, yeah, sure.

Sooner or later you're gonna return to
the mountain and give your bits to the

mountain back, and then the mountain's
gonna re, you know, reinvent you as an

earthworm or a tree or Jared Anderson.

But I liked this idea.

That's something in the words, love you.

And the person who turned me on
to you, let me tell you about her.

So she's this really interesting person
who's I think going to emerge as a

writer soonish called Leanna Tank.

And she works within, she's
an occupational therapist.

She works within the criminal justice
system in, in Michigan with people who've

committed some gnarly crimes and they
can't be allowed back into society.

But they committed these
things in moments of psychosis.

So they're actually acquitted
but they just can't be allowed,

you know, properly back in.

And she exists as an interface between
those people and, and she uses nature.

And she turned me on, said there's,
there's this bloke, Jared Anderson,

who I find his writings very
useful in the work that I do.

So you should know, Jared, that I can, I
can report directly to you that at least

one person I know is using stuff from
something in the woods loves you for Thank

you, you for that, that sort of work.

So it's clearly doing what it
needs, the job it needs to do.

I would be grateful if
you would read something.

I was trying to find on my cell phone just
now what she had sent to me, but then I

thought, Sodi actually, you know, Jared
should pull up what he wants to read.

So could you read us a bit?

Jarod Anderson: Sure,

Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

Jarod Anderson: Let's see.

I'll give you a choice.

Well, no, you're, I I
have a, I have a thought.

This is a, a thing I sometimes reflect
on about this book, where the fear

going into it was that as somebody who
struggled with depression, I just really

didn't wanna write, go touch a tree and
you'll feel better at the same time.

Even though

Rupert Isaacson: one often does actually.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

Right.

At the same time, I often
touch a tree and feel better.

So that's sort of the, the joke here
is that this is a little section about

me touching a tree and feeling better.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Jarod Anderson: Pardon
me while I find it here.

Alright.

Right.

So this is from something
in the woods, loves You.

It was a chilly wet 11:00 AM on a weekday.

In October, there was nobody at the park.

Why would there be other
people have real jobs?

Depression always has a comment.

I didn't wanna be there, but I was
committed to running a small experiment.

I wanted to see if it was possible
to have a miserable, successful day.

Whether I like it or not, all my
versions of success require effort.

It's one of my old beliefs, and
I can bend it, but not break it.

Human worth is innate.

Success means overcoming resistance.

It means work.

The air was crisp and misty.

I trudged through squelching
mud, churning red and gold leaves

down into the hungry Earth.

On that walk, I didn't feel happy
with either my beliefs about success

or the day's experiment, but I
asked my legs to move and they did.

One more commonplace, miracle, moment
by moment, stubborn, step by stubborn

step, I reached the shag bark hickory.

I reached out to the rough bark, the
cold, wet, depressed, and contrary.

Part of my mind wanted to be cynical about
the tree and dismissive of its presence.

I wanted to mock myself as a
cliche, a crunchy, new age fake.

I wanted to call the day a
waste, but that part of me fell

silent when my fingers met.

The tree here was 80 feet of hickory.

Over a century of life, turning dirt
and pale Ohio sunlight into food.

I could eat straight from
the ground into the oxygen.

I'd been breathing since before
I knew what breathing was.

There was no ignoring it.

I could feel it there,
really feel it alive.

Electric beneath my aching fingers,
an ancient creature, silent and grand

beside a crooked little footpath family.

That Hickory stood tall over me.

And for a moment, it was the only tree
in the woods, the only tree in the world.

The first tree, the last
tree, the concept of a tree.

I tried to calculate its value,
and in that moment I saw how

absurdly useless the word value is.

When applied to nature, like trying to
pin a price tag on rain or sunlight or

gravity, I tried to imagine the tree
as a human technology, and suddenly

I was standing in the presence of an
impossible work of science fiction, a

solar powered self-replicating carbon,
fixing automaton, producing oxygen, and

building materials on a planetary scale.

I tried to shift genres, fantasy and
magic, and I found I was a small,

fleeting pilgrim who walked in the shadow
of giants living off of their size.

How much of my own form and evolution
was quietly shaped by trees, an opposable

limb for climbing posable thumb,
for climbing shelter and refuge from

predators, fuel for cooking, unlocking
more nutrients to build larger brains.

I know touching a tree
does not cure depression.

Of course, I know that.

I also know that on that October day, the
hickory didn't need to cure my depression

in order to take away its power.

Rupert Isaacson: That's good writing.

Jarod Anderson: Thanks.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,

Jarod Anderson: I've practiced.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
that's some good shit.

Okay.

What I like very much there too,
apart from the fact it's just really

good writing, is I like this idea
that you don't have to cure things.

So I don't know if you've probably haven't
read any books that I've written, but

the book that I am sort of known for
is a book called The Horse Boy, which

follows a journey which I did with my
autistic son when he was five, across

a chunk of Mongolia on horseback.

And I've lived a lot of my life with
hunting and gathering people, so I have

engaged in a lot of shamanistic stuff
because that is what goes on if you spend

time with hunting and gathering people.

And so it was very natural for me to
go look for that, but I never had in

my mind that I was looking for a cure.

Mm-hmm.

That to my mind, the autism
was who my son was and is.

And that there were
enormous gifts with that.

And that's like saying, I, I, Jared,
I want you to stop being an American

man, or Jared, I want you to.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: I don't know.

Be, be something else, but No, you're
gonna be Jared, you know, so you

don't want to, you're not trying to
take someone's personality away, but

let's say I'm your friend or your
dad and I see that you're suffering.

Mm-hmm.

Through some aspect or other, then yeah,
I would, I would like to see if I can

help ameliorate or assuage that somehow.

And so the journey that we were
on was about healing amelioration,

assuage, not about cure.

Yeah, of course.

What happened was that every single person
who interviewed me about that book I would

explain that and say, I'm not looking for
a cure and I do not believe you should

have a cure for autism and dah, dah, dah.

And of course it would always be
titled he went to Mongolia to look

for a cure for his son's autism.

And then everyone would shit on me, you
know, for saying, you can't say that like,

well I never said that, but journalists
will say whatever they wanna say.

I know that 'cause I'm a journalist.

And one just accepts
that that is the case.

But the fact is there is this
difference between healing and cure.

And I think it's a really good one
to talk about for a moment there.

'cause you've touched on it twice.

Once with this.

And the other thing with your
cryptids, that the cryptids are not,

I think from what you've described,
it's not, it's as if they know.

That like everything in nature, that
there's an always a falling outta balance

and a coming back to balance and a falling
outta balance and a coming back to balance

and the falling outta balance is as
necessary as the coming back to balance.

The, the horned wolf could not
survive if it didn't have prey, right?

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: If unless
there were your, your orbital

kingfisher, unless there was this
many mouth shadow would die out.

Right.

Because that's, its, that's its food.

So we might say, well thank God
for the orbital kingfisher because

it's taking away this shit thing.

And the orbital kingfisher will
say, thank God for the shit thing,

otherwise I wouldn't be able to survive.

And both are true.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

This, this book I structured it starts
in winter where I was really going

into a rough time with depression,
but, but I end in autumn and part

of the point I am making is that
depression is not a thing I cure.

It's a thing that I understand has cycles
and seasons that my own mind is a part

of nature and has cycles and seasons.

But reaching for nature
metaphors helped me get past my

main hurdle, which was shame.

The idea that I needed
to be cured or fixed.

Rupert Isaacson: As you know, if
you followed any of my work, I'm

an autism dad and we have a whole
career before this podcast in helping

people with neurodivergence, either
who are professionals in the field.

Are you a therapist?

Are you a caregiver?

Are you a parent?

Or are you somebody with neurodivergence?

When my son, Rowan, was
diagnosed with autism in 2004,

I really didn't know what to do.

So I reached out for mentorship, and
I found it through an amazing adult

autistic woman who's very famous, Dr.

Temple Grandin.

And she told me what to do.

And it's been working so
amazingly for the last 20 years.

That not only is my son basically
independent, but we've helped

countless, countless thousands
of others reach the same goal.

Working in schools, working at
home, working in therapy settings.

If you would like to learn this
cutting edge, neuroscience backed

approach, it's called Movement Method.

You can learn it online, you
can learn it very, very simply.

It's almost laughably simple.

The important thing is to begin.

Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr.

Grandin and see what results can follow.

Go to this website, newtrailslearning.

com Sign up as a gold member.

Take the online movement method course.

It's in 40 countries.

Let us know how it goes for you.

We really want to know.

We really want to help people like
me, people like you, out there

live their best life, to live
free, ride free, see what happens.

Jarod Anderson: And I mean, we could
get into the idea that a lot of mental

issues have more to do with arbitrary and
unwelcoming context we create for people

indeed, as much as the issue themselves.

But the metaphor that I got to
through reconnecting with nature

I mean, it sort of goes like this.

I instinctually and easily love
nature, and so I do not easily and

instinctually love myself in finding
the connection between these two

things is a way for me to understand
that I can turn that instinctual

love for what nature is on myself.

And I did that with the shame hurdle too.

And I'm a, I'm a poet.

I'm a writer, so I work in
metaphor and, and the metaphor

I landed on, it goes like this.

If I planned a picnic and it was
canceled by a thunderstorm, I could be

disappointed, but I wouldn't be ashamed.

Why?

All right.

Well, the thunderstorm
is a known natural thing.

We know that I don't steer the clouds.

I didn't invite a thunderstorm.

So why would I be ashamed
if a thunderstorm arrived?

Okay.

Depression's no different.

It's a known natural thing.

Nobody invites it.

I don't steer those clouds.

So with my day is derailed by depression,
disappointment perhaps, but not shame.

And I, I tie that to this Nordic saying
I love, which is there is no bad weather.

There is just bad clothes.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Jarod Anderson: And so if I think
of my own emotions, my, my struggles

as brain weather, all right, maybe
I can't steer the clouds, but I

can change what hard weather gear
I have hanging beside the door.

I can improve my shelters.

So, so no, I'm not vanishing
depression from my mind.

I can't.

But what I can see it as is, is brain
weather as part of the same push

pull, natural cycles that I see in
love and recognize the importance

of out in the natural world.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Well, I, one thing I've often thought
about that as, as people's moods, emotions

as weather or similar to weather, and
we even use those metaphors, right?

You know?

Mm-hmm.

He's got a dark cloud over them or
something, or he is a sunny person.

Makes complete sense that our endocrine
system, which creates our moods, would

reflect the nutrition and the ecosystem
that creates the endocrine system

that creates us in the first place.

Why would it not reflect
the thing that creates it?

And something which I have been fortunate
to discover in the course of spending a

lot of time in nature with hunting and
gathering people, is that what sits, I

talked about the shamanic, what sits at
the center of any community like that is.

Are the healers.

And it's really interesting.

Why are they there?

Because the human in the natural wild
state is not top predator, right?

So we are halfway up the food
chain, but we have this superpower.

You know, people talk about us being
homo sapien sapiens, but that's actually

not descriptive of us because the
thinking ape anything with a brain

thinks, and lots of things have brains.

In fact, some things have many brains.

So, but what is this, this atoms
apple that I've got here that you've

got, which is this enlarged larynx
through testosterone, the larynx with a

speaking ape, with a storytelling ape.

That's our thing.

So with a strategizing ape, and of course
when we get together in a group and we

strategize, we are sort of unbeatable
to the point that we're victims of

our own success destroying the planet.

But when one sees that at work, what
one realizes in that halfway up the food

chain existence, which is the reality
of say, living hunter gather existence

in Africa or something, there's lots of
predators out there that will eat you.

That if there's fragmentation
within the group, everybody

will get eaten by the hyenas.

So if conflict internal or
external gets beyond a certain

point, then we're all at risk.

So therefore, all of the healing
stuff is about conflict resolution.

And that is naturally who we
are, which means that there must

always be a conflict to resolve.

And indeed when one is with those
cultures, it's about every 10 days

there's some sort of healing ceremony.

It doesn't need to be because I
fell down and broke my leg, or you

got bitten by a snake or something.

It could be for that, but it could
also be just to wash the psychic dirty

laundry of the group to kind of keep
us all cool, to make sure we don't

all fragment and get eaten by her us.

'cause we're funky monkeys with
funky brains that are quite

brilliant, but also fragile.

So that mechanism which is there in
our most natural state is inbuilt.

And in our culture, we don't have it.

And we, we've gone from the
predator never being your fellow

human because there's so much out
there that you gotta band together.

I guess to now in our society,
having wiped out all those

predators, the predator is always
and only your fellow human.

And that I think, drives us insane.

So I think, you know, when one is, you
know, in a position where one says, well,

you know, I have, I have depression, or
I have a tendency to psychosis, or I have

one of these things, I think there's never
been a human that hasn't had those things.

But now we're in a, in a, in a
state of living where those things

are no longer able to be addressed.

In the natural way, and now
we have to flounder around.

But that's why I think that kind of
writing that you're doing is very good,

because it takes the place to some
degree of the shaman and the healer.

Jarod Anderson: That's, I mean,
that's part of the hope, right?

Is that that's strategizing a
part of you know, I, I love to

think of writing as a magic, as a
magic that connects mine to mind.

Sometimes I, if I'm struggling to
write, I'll go sit in a library where

I can see, I can see sort of this
temple to words where people come for,

for real reasons to have real impact.

And so, you know, that that
was a huge part of why I

wanted to, to tell the story.

And I love writing as entertainment,
but I do think that, like the brain

weather metaphor, if I can explain that.

Well, I, I've had speaking engagements
where somebody had come up to me

afterwards and said that they wrote
it down and just kept staring at

it and thought like, okay, I feel
lighter every time I read this.

And it's like, all right, well that
can be the power of that storytelling.

Hey but only if, you know.

I actually bother to, to write it down.

And to get it out there.

I'm sure you've gotten the same
sorts of comments on, on your story.

And, you know, it's, it was so scary
leaving that academic job, but, but

this, this just feels like such an
amazing calling and an ama amazing

privilege to, to get to do this.

Rupert Isaacson: How long ago
did you leave the academic job?

Jarod Anderson: Geez.

I feel like it's been
like seven years now.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Jarod Anderson: Right

Rupert Isaacson: around there.

And that's not, that's not that long.

And the reason I ask is for someone
with depression, I know very much as

a professional writer, it's a scary
puff because you are only as good

as the last book that you wrote.

It takes, I was

Jarod Anderson: just talking about this.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

You know, just the fact, you
know, and maybe your last book was

successful doesn't mean your next
book is, and doesn't mean that your

publishers or your agent necessarily
think your next book will be.

Doesn't mean that they'll, it's,

Jarod Anderson: I was just talking
about this in terms of like, things

are going well right now, but as you
said, I have no control over, over the

market or the next book, or I don't
know, supply and demand that stuff.

And so.

I, I, I'm constantly thinking about
hedging my bets and part of that is, is

sort of a, a mental health thing where,
because I feel good right now, that's

the time to build support systems.

Mm-hmm.

You know, I'm like, who will value
these, these publishing accomplishments?

And it makes me think like, do
I need to get an MFA so that I

could teach creative writing?

Do I need one?

Like I, I, I'm, I'm constantly
looking at these other paths and it's

Rupert Isaacson: never a bad idea to
add some skills to your hunting kit.

Right?

Yeah.

I mean, as a hunter or gatherer,

Jarod Anderson: well, that words, that
was the thought with like the M FFA

or teaching creative writing is that
there's synergy there because it's not

as if I'm going to stop writing ever.

Right.

So Neat.

It would be fun to be in a, a, a
creative writing degree program.

Because I would be doing
what I would be doing anyway.

Rupert Isaacson: So think you then have
those stacks of essays to mark of the

people who didn't wanna write them.

Jarod Anderson: That's the thing.

Right.

It's like, why would I go back there?

Paying

Rupert Isaacson: the rent
is, is a little bit more

Jarod Anderson: less.

Well, yeah.

My, my, my wife kind of teases
me about it because she's

like, everything's going well.

Like, you're, you're kind of
living the dream right now.

It's like, yeah, but this, this isn't
a dream that comes with a, a pension.

Exactly.

So it's, it is.

It, it always is tub

Rupert Isaacson: me at
the back of my mind.

Yeah.

How do you, because, you know, I,
I, I also like everyone have my ups

and downs mentally and emotionally,
and I've definitely gone through

times where you know, the fear.

Jarod Anderson: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: And also, you
know, as you know, having had a book

that has been successful I had a
book that was successful and that,

but leading up to that had lots of
books that were not so successful.

And there is that thing of when
you finally do get something that's

successful, and it could be anything,
I think anyone who's listening

to this or watching this Yeah.

You know, can, can put their
own professional life into

this doesn't have to be a book.

It could be whatever, but when
suddenly people are giving you

validation in a big way, it's very,
very hard not to get attached to that.

And in fact, I think you're going to,
you, you, you can't not you're only human.

And then of course life goes on and
it might go from strength to strength,

but it's more likely to have cycles
and, you know, troughs and, and, and

crests and waves like anyone else's.

So this is a particularly challenging
field to be in if you're someone who

struggles with self-concept, with mental
health, with so forth and so forth.

You know, this the ups and of the downs.

So tell us, tell me how you navigate that.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah, I have,
I have a few answers for this.

Kind of the, the meta stuff
and then the day-to-day stuff.

It took, it took me over a decade
to break in and get an agent,

like in fiction, for example.

And

Rupert Isaacson: by the way, lad's
listening, it really does, it takes

a while before someone was back here.

Yeah, yeah.

Jarod Anderson: And so, Leslie,
my wife, she was in the same boat.

We, we were both sending
novels out to different agents.

And, and so the thing we would say
to each other when we got really

frustrated, the kind of running
joke was, what are you gonna do?

Stop.

Because we'd always loved telling stories.

And so my, my advice to writers who
feel like they're banging their head

against it right now and the thing
that worked for me as somebody with

depression was, was process goals over
outcome goals, which can feel a little

fuzzy, but I mean it in this way.

Like, I never controlled if an
agent liked a query or if I sold

a story or a poem or whatever.

I didn't control that.

So that would be an
outcome goal, process goal.

I could control.

I'm gonna do six queries this month, or
I'm gonna send out this many stories or

poems, or, or I'm gonna write this many
words, you know, a week process goals.

Keeping in mind that I like
this, I know it gives me energy.

Focusing on that and the process and then
letting all that other stuff be on the

back burner was really helpful to me for
that long span where I couldn't find an

audience and I couldn't get a foothold
in any kind of traditional publishing.

And then as somebody who has serious
ups and downs with depression, then the

challenge is how do you write a book?

You're not gonna write a book
because you have a good week.

It's, you know, it's a, it's a marathon.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

And often your best writing actually
doesn't come in those times.

Jarod Anderson: No, no.

Rupert Isaacson: Comes at your
times of most vulnerability often.

Jarod Anderson: I, I also firmly
believe that, like, I can't tell,

I can't tell until much later.

What's the good and what's,
what's the bad like for me?

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Jarod Anderson: But what I do know
is that if I'm not consistent,

I lose hold of the pacing.

I'll lose, I lose hold
of the story I'm telling.

And so even on the bad days, I have a
sliding scale for that process goal.

Like if, if I'm in a book, I, I try to do
at least 500 words a day, but I do have

an out where I can also do a half hour.

Where if I'm, if I'm in the chair sort
of rereading and planning and writing

notes, if nothing comes I can still
call a half hour of victory because

I'm still attached to the narrative.

I'm still squirming in the chair.

And I have to do that because of
the way my brain works, where if

I say 2000 words a day or nothing
I know where that leads for me.

Yeah.

That means like writing becomes
touching a hot stove and Yeah.

I, I am not a rules guy.

Like that was a, has been a
problem for me in the past.

Like, I, I, I am not motivated by,
by rules, external or internal.

So like, I have to find ways to celebrate
victories, to stay friends with writing.

So I really do kind of move the
goalposts on what counts as a win.

Rupert Isaacson: That's, that's
very, that's very clever.

I think.

'cause you know, I struggle with that too.

And, and sometimes I go through
times when I, I won't write.

And I'm asking myself, why,
why aren't you writing?

And well, we know the
answers 'cause I'm scared.

But the,

I haven't cracked it, I think even this
far into my career to always get to the.

Computer daily.

And I distract myself 'cause I have
other thick ways that I make a living

and other very pressing things that I do.

So particularly, you know, work
with autism and things like that.

So, you know, I can definitely kid
myself that I'm doing such a necessary

work over here and it is necessary
that I can kind of ignore yeah.

The call to write and then I know that
if I do that for long enough, it will

punish me.

Yeah.

Emotionally, mentally, and so on.

So it's amazing if you can bend the
rules like that, but do you ever actually

fuck up to the point where you look up
and you say, actually fuck, you know,

two, two months just went by there.

Three months just went by there
and I didn't actually do anything.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah, absolutely.

Rupert Isaacson: Good.

I'm reassured

Jarod Anderson: at, at, at, at this age.

Like, you know, now sort of
deep into my forties here.

Now, at least what I have though
is the track record of thinking

Yeah, this happens, you know?

Right.

I come back to it like,

Rupert Isaacson: and I
probably will get there.

Jarod Anderson: It, it's also, you
know, there comes a point where

it's, it's, it's part of the, the
furniture, it's part of the identity.

Where I think that's part of why it
feels so bad when it's not happening

or when you have a, a bad month
or two or three, is it's like, all

right, well, you know, writing is who
I am and I'm letting who I am down.

Yeah.

In, in some way that's more painful
than, than not folding the laundry.

But again, like I, I, I try to come back
to the, like, seasons and cycles thing

that I firmly believe, but I don't wanna
lie to you and say that I always feel it,

you know, it's funny having written this
book, sometimes I have to crack it open

and remember my own viewpoint on things.

You know what I mean?

That's interesting.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

I

Jarod Anderson: do be because

into what?

Because one also forgets what one writes.

Yes.

And, and, and baked into being a
human being is knowing things and

forgetting them and relearning them,
and knowing a thing and failing anyway.

Or having good advice for
yourself and not taking it.

I mean, the best thing I can say
about it is it's all just such a

natural and inevitable part of the
process that, that you try to shrug

at it a little bit, even though,
even though it's painful sometimes,

Rupert Isaacson: what, let's go
now to the other side of the scale.

So when you are on that
successful wave and

one self-concept gets tied up
with, I'm now a successful author.

Mm-hmm.

You know, and therefore, you know.

It's like a football game.

You know, I've, I've scored a
touchdown, you know, now I've

gotta keep scoring touchdowns.

And you know, that inevitably, you
know, you may or you may not, but

you, you may well score quite a few
more touchdowns, but you will also

not score quite a few more touchdowns.

And anyone looking from the outside
says, well, that's perfectly fine.

That's just normal.

That's just, but of course, from the
inside it's, it's, it's much trickier.

Now that you've become successful,
how do you navigate that?

Because that's another
tricky one for mental health.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah, I was listened
to writer v Schwab's podcast, I

think it's called Know Right Way.

And they were having a conversation about
this and the conversation was, if your

book does well, you need another book.

And if your book doesn't do
well, you need another book.

Like, ugh.

True.

That's so true.

True.

But how, how brutal to
hear it said that way.

That is

Rupert Isaacson: brutal.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: And the problem with
books is you gotta write the bastards.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

It takes a long time.

Rupert Isaacson: Oh, it takes forever.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

I, I find that I have to do this
serious compartmentalization, right?

We're like, I've, I'm very interested
and here's one compartment and I'm very

deeply interested in this book I'm doing
and this idea, and it's my whole world.

But.

I have to keep it in its
compartment because maybe

it'll do well, maybe it won't.

I'm gonna read brutal
one star reviews for it.

I'm gonna read five star reviews for it.

But I'm, those aren't the ones
that I'm gonna remember exactly.

You know, and so it's like, all
right here's this thing that

was, my whole world still is in
a way, it's in this compartment.

And I have to say to myself,
in some level, the reception

of it is none of my business.

Rupert Isaacson: Yes,

Jarod Anderson: because like, I believe
that art is a funny thing where like,

I've done my part and now whatever art is
happens in this space between the thing

itself and the person interpreting it.

And, and somewhere in that interaction,
that space between those two, those two

molecules, the, the electrical bond, like
that's, that's where the art is happening.

And all I can do is
provide my one molecule.

And then, you know, I've done what I
can, and I try to say to myself, if

the book has found its people at all
mission accomplished maybe the book

let somebody write a a mean review.

And, and they really enjoyed that.

You know, like I try to, I
try to be shruggy about it.

Yeah.

But again, as we've been talking
about, then there's the financial

component and the career component

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Jarod Anderson: And all that

Rupert Isaacson: feeding
your kid component.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

All that stuff's terrifying.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Jarod Anderson: And the only thing
I can do there is think of it as

terrifying in the same way getting
hit by a meteor is terrifying.

Like, nah.

I, it's so far outside my control.

I try to say to that fear like mm-hmm
Well I'm gonna do the part I can do.

Yeah.

And that's it.

Yeah.

You know?

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

No, good advice.

Alright.

You said that you had ended that
book with autumn coming into winter.

So now you've teased us.

Now we've gotta hear it.

Can you read that bit, please?

Jarod Anderson: Oh, sure.

I can read some of that.

Let me find a good spot.

I I'll tell you, a lot of these
chapters have to do with learning

something from an animal, right?

Yeah.

Or, or a tree.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Jarod Anderson: And much like the art
thing I just said, that meaning is

happening between me and the animal.

The animal isn't the meaning.

It's, it's this idea that I,
that that fact and, and truth

are sisters, they're not twins.

It's like there's the fact, here's
a raccoon and then the meaning, the

truth behind it is something else.

Mm-hmm.

It's related.

Mm-hmm.

But, but I have, I have
a, a, a part to play.

And so.

As I am making peace with the idea that
depression isn't gonna be gone forever.

The animal I reached for was the raccoon,

Rupert Isaacson: big fan of raccoons.

Jarod Anderson: Me too.

I I run into them a fair amount.

I around

Rupert Isaacson: here.

Yeah.

In, in, I just have, I've been living in
Germany for a long time and raccoons were

released into Hesen, which is the part
of Germany we're in and about a hundred

years ago now, there's raccoons around.

Mm-hmm.

And I get a kick out of the fact that
there's raccoons in Germany just being

a little bit anarchic there in the woods
and people Oh yeah, they're invasive.

Dunno.

Well, maybe, but they're there and
I'm certainly en as entertained by

them there as I am in North America.

Jarod Anderson: Okay.

I think this is a part that's
relevant to what we're talking about.

Let's try this.

I once growled at a raccoon that was
approaching my campfire and he just

stood on his hind feet as if to say,
if you're feeling froggy, then jump.

Big guy.

I laughed and shared my sandwich.

The primary thing raccoons
seem to do is thrive.

They thrive in human
spaces and wild spaces.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Jarod Anderson: They're versatile,
intelligent, and exude an

air of crafty stubbornness.

It can be romantic to glean life
lessons from herons and hawks and

deer leaping through thickets.

But there are many seasons in
my life when what I really need

is the teachings of raccoons.

The fall the fall we retreated
from Seattle was one such season.

The fall when my recent successes
in fighting depression seemed to

be slipping away was another one.

I imagine these two disappointing
autumns transposed one on top of another.

I saw the raccoon pawing at the
apartment door in Washington state.

I saw the raccoon peering
out of my dumpster in Ohio.

Both creatures spoke with one mouth
asking an essential question, who

says survival has to be pretty?

I didn't want to hear it.

I had spent months working with
my counselor Mark toward a stable

mind, and I felt it slipping away.

It hurt.

I hurt.

It was the old hurt.

Winter's hurt the kind of depression
that sits on your chest until

your ribs ache and your lungs
burn until you just want out.

And I go on a little later in this
section to picture that raccoon

sitting on my kitchen counter, you
know, eating Doritos with orange

dust all over his face and, and.

Restating that like you're not
in a beauty contest, like you're

struggling with mental illness.

You need to change your
definition of what success is.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Jarod Anderson: Because, you know, I
just had this, this swell of confidence

in my ability to control my own sadness.

And when it came back, as it inevitably
does, I felt crushed that, oh no, I

have not solved this once in forever.

Of course I haven't.

And it went back to the way I started
that shag bark hickory section

of learning to have sad, hard,
successful day and understanding that

success is completely subjective.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

Jarod Anderson: In terms of
judging my own life circumstances.

So yeah, I could catch a glimpse of myself
in the mirror and realize that I hadn't

changed out of sweatpants for 24 hours.

But, you know, is that a huge failure?

Who says, you know, and feeling
like I have never cured depression,

but wow, I have gotten some great
techniques for rejecting shame.

And that has taught me that shame
was such a big component in the old

suffering that I didn't recognize.

Because if I can leave aside shame, then
suddenly I get to be on my own side.

Before it was depression seemed against
me and I was also against me because I

was judging myself for having depression.

So there, there didn't seem to be a lot of
people in my corner inside my own skull.

So finding a way past that shame
and understanding that there were

seasons when I need the raccoon is,
was really a big, a big help to me.

Rupert Isaacson: Interestingly,
you know, shame when I have talked

to, again, hunters and gatherers
who are not saints, by the way.

Jarod Anderson: Sure.

Rupert Isaacson: They don't deal in shame.

It's so interesting.

And it's not that it, the
emotion doesn't come up.

It's not like we've invented the
emotion of shame since agriculture, but

their mechanisms for dealing with it
are so useful in that what they sort

of say is , it's almost like they,
they would almost use, I think, a

metaphor like you would for with your
orbital kingfisher or your horned wolf.

That the, the that the shaming exists
almost like a demon shadow side of

ourselves that has a function to a
degree, which is to basically show us

where we don't wanna be but shouldn't be
allowed to get beyond a certain point.

And then you bring in your ancestors
or your shamanic help meet your horned

wolf, your orbital kingfish, or whatever.

However, if one wants to get
people to do what you want to do.

And of course, in hunter gatherer
culture, nobody does that.

Jarod Anderson: Mm.

Rupert Isaacson: It's not
built into the economy.

There's no need for it.

In fact, it's counterproductive
because it leads to conflict, which

leads to fragmentation, which leads
to everyone getting eaten by hyenas.

But when agriculture comes
into the picture and toil

and going out there and just.

To plant the crop and to pull that crop
out of the, you know, and to deal with

the fact that the crop might fail and
actually now you need slaves because

it's, it's so, to which means you
need war and you need that and well

then shame is a very useful thing.

Oh, it's so useful,

Jarod Anderson: yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: To get those people
to go out and do what they don't

want to do for their entire lives.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: You need shame.

Otherwise no one would do it.

So here we come along 10,000 years
plus ish after that inheritors

of that, especially, you know, if
you're in Ohio, why do people go

to Ohio to be agriculturalists?

You know?

Mm-hmm.

And so you're gonna get, you
know, huge reinforcement of that.

Not surprising that in the absence
then of a good medicine man

who would've been there at one
point, but isn't there anymore.

But there is the shag bark hickory
under which the medicine man would have

operated and that that medicine man or
woman would have drawn resources from.

And we are still the same
species as that hunter.

God.

So there's still this innate rebel
part of us that knows that shame

is a mofo and wants to absolutely
look it in the eye and reject it as

the demon, as sauron as you know.

How does Sauron get.

You to put the ring on.

What does, you know, what's
putting the ring on all about?

It's about doing the wrong thing.

It's about shame, right?

And being seduced into doing the
wrong thing until you eventually

become a shadow of yourself.

And then you become the nasal who are,
you know, consumed, consumed by shame.

They do actually get to ride around on
cool dinosaurs as well and live forever.

But apart from that, yeah.

Jarod Anderson: It's How many

Rupert Isaacson: cool

Jarod Anderson: noise?

Lemme lemme just say that like the
stubbornness I, I I I locked in on that

word when you said it too, because I
think that that was part of what helped

me in understanding that, that shame
has most of its power when we think

we have to keep up this silent facade
that we are perfect and unquestionable

and publicly or beyond reproach.

And so, like stubbornness and
rebellion, like me sharing it all

publicly, continually is a little
bit for me rebellion of, of, of

saying, you know, of given, given the
middle finger to like that impulse

I had for years to stay quiet.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Jarod Anderson: And then moving past
that fear over and over again, I felt

like I get stronger and stronger because
I am so open and honest and vulnerable.

And then I have people
telling me, oh, me too.

So then the isolation
starts to melt away, right?

Rupert Isaacson: Community comes.

Yeah.

Yeah,

Jarod Anderson: yeah.

Because all of a sudden I don't
have some uniquely detestable thing.

I have an issue that lots and lots
and lots of people have, and as soon

as we start talking about it openly

Rupert Isaacson: Common humanity

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

Then what role does shame have?

Rupert Isaacson: If you made it
this far into the podcast, then I'm

guessing you're somebody that, like
me, loves to read books about not

just how people have achieved self
actualization, but particularly

about the relationship with nature.

Spirituality, life, the
universe, and everything.

And I'd like to draw your
attention to my books.

If you would like to read the story
of how we even arrived here, perhaps

you'd like to check out the two New
York Times bestsellers, The Horseboy

and The Long Ride Home, and come on an
adventure with us and see what engendered,

what started Live Free Ride Free.

And before we go back to the
podcast, also check out The Healing

Land, which tells the story of.

My years spent in the Kalahari with the
Sun, Bushmen, hunter gatherer people

there, and all that they taught me, and
mentored me in, and all that I learned.

Come on that adventure with me.

Yeah.

Well, shame gets you to pay your
tithe to the church is what it does.

Jarod Anderson: Oh, that too.

Yeah.

Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: yeah,

Jarod Anderson: too.

Rupert Isaacson: Interestingly,
I have a raccoon kitchen

story, a really cool, real one.

I lived in Texas for a long time.

We had a cat door for
years and years and years.

The cat door was not exploited by
raccoons until one day when it was.

And you always know when the raccoon
has come in because it lands with

a particularly heavy thump on the
floor that it's, that's thump enough

to wake you up in the bedroom.

Wow.

That is away from the kitchen.

And I remember waking up
going, I bet that's a raccoon.

And going in and finding the raccoon
in my kitchen and like looking at him

and like I'm standing there stark us
and thinking, oh, you know, I really

wanna, I really don't corner this animal.

Yeah.

Without a suit of armor on, you know?

And sort of suggesting to him a little
bit with the broomstick look, dude.

Yeah.

And having him kind of go, no bummer.

All right, fine.

But it's not like he ran and
this went on and this went on.

'cause he was after the cat food.

And no matter where I put the cat food
or whatever, he always found the cat

food or she always found the cat food.

And so finally we came up with
the idea one day of buying

like this really super duper.

Difficult complex Tupperware thing
with this big complex Tupperware thing,

lock thing on it with the cat food.

And sure enough, I hear thump and
then I hear the door, and then I

hear the stuff comes out of the
cupboard and blah, blah, blah.

I'm like, I wonder if you've
got to open that cat food.

Yeah.

I've got a know.

Right?

So, so I go in and there was this
bonding moment between me and the racoon.

The racoon.

He's like there and he's
trying to figure it out.

And you can see, he's
like, I've got a thumb out.

And his tongue out and
his, and he looks up at me.

And in that moment it's
like he's got any ideas.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

Right.

Rupert Isaacson: And I'm like,

Jarod Anderson: don't just stand there.

Pitch in.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: The reason I bought
that Tupperware was to protect that

cat food, but hats off for, and
then you could seem like a bummer.

Yeah.

And then he just kind of moves out of the

Jarod Anderson: Around here.

Rupert Isaacson: What I

Jarod Anderson: often, yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: It was
a, a bonding moment.

And there was this part of me that
really actually thought rather,

like you saying, well actually
then I just shared my sandwich.

You know?

Jarod Anderson: I have,
that was a real story.

Yeah.

I mean, a raccoon came right up to me at,
at the fire and I, I thought to myself

like, should I run this raccoon off?

And I'm like, I'm gonna give
him half of my sandwich.

And he took it like with hands.

It was such a strange moment.

And more than once.

Now around here, I've, I've rescued
them from my, my dumpster outside.

'cause they crawl in to look through the
trash and then have a moment of, oops.

They can't get out.

Rupert Isaacson: Isn't it interesting
how, particularly in our culture,

there is this real kind of, you're
not supposed to like raccoons,

you're not supposed to tolerate them.

Yeah.

You're supposed to wag the finger
at them, but they're so charming.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: And as you say,
also, I think they are a real

metaphor for thriving, not just
surviving, like anywhere they can be.

Anywhere you'll find raccoons.

And one things I also love about
raccoons is that you can be in the

really shy urban environment in the
US well in Canada too, and actually

Mexico, and you'll always find a raccoon.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: And that raccoon
will always be doing well.

In the uk we have a very
similar thing with foxes.

Urban foxes, urban red
foxes are a real thing.

And you get these people like,
oh, I'm like, no, they're

reminding us of the wild.

Yeah.

Like how amazing that you could have that

Jarod Anderson: We have urban
coyotes on an uptick too.

Indeed.

Around here now.

Indeed.

Indeed.

I indeed.

Talking about shame and what animals are,
we're allowed to like I have a chapter

about gray squirrels and the whole
metaphor there is, you know, I went to a.

Store that sells bird feeders.

And they had half the stuff there was
aimed at how to keep gray squirrels away.

And you know, I have this moment
of like, wait, why I love gray?

Squirrels are great.

I I love seeing them.

You know, there's all this bird seed
laced with cayenne and all these baffles

and I, I reached for that as the metaphor
of of society arbitrarily making any

kind of neurodivergent unwelcome.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's
the, it's the, it's right.

It's the wild animals that can thrive
in our controlled environments Yeah.

That we detest the most
because they, we fear them.

I think because they remind us that
the wild is just as you can pave over

nature, but then cracks will appear
and that forest is gonna come back

up and that we cannot control things.

Jarod Anderson: I'm writing a short
book about dandelions right now

for the same publisher that did
something in the woods loves you.

And it's the same kind of thing
of suddenly there's this billion

dollar industry of herbicides
trying to get rid of dandelions.

And why, you know, why, why do
we hate dandelions and one of

Rupert Isaacson: the most
nutritious plants on the planet?

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

And health

Rupert Isaacson: giving

Jarod Anderson: great for pollinate.

I mean, you know, the deep tap roots
area of the soil on and on and on

about the values of dandelions.

But all of a sudden because of lawns
and this weird 18th century European.

Aris, you know, aristocracy,
landscaping trend.

Like now we, we don't want dandelions,
like monoculture lawns are, are terrible.

They're, they're really broken landscapes.

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

Jarod Anderson: Absolutely.

But I, I also think we distrust
things that are free and

things that are, are abundant.

Like yeah, dandelions are more nutritious
than spinach and kale, but like, but

they're growing along the roadside
and you don't have to pay for them.

So we just trust that.

I

Rupert Isaacson: think
we attach value to them.

Yeah, absolutely.

We better shame them so that and they were
too, too common, nor were the red screw or

nor were the raccoon, nor were the coyote.

It's, it's interesting.

I, I've got a, a great squirrel
story, so then I want to hear yours.

So I, I have a couple of stories
that are I live in Texas moments.

Jarod Anderson: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: And one of them was
shortly after I moved into rural Texas.

I let the battery of my
truck run down accidentally.

And so I had to try to wave down
someone to jumpstart my truck.

And I waved down a truck at the bottom
of the driveway and it's this old

black dude with his granddaughter who
must be about 21 or so, two loaded

shotguns pointing out of the window.

They're both drinking beer and
as they pull out and I'm about

to say thank you for stopping.

I've got jumpstart before
I can open my mouth.

Bloke says, garnish squirrel.

And I'm like, garish squirrel.

Garish squirrel.

What does that mean?

Oh, do I have any squirrels?

I'm like, well, yeah.

I mean, the woods behind the house.

I see them.

I mean, but I wouldn't say I have one.

But anyway, here, here's
the problem I've got.

And I go, ah.

So he comes up and he looks at my engine
and he criticizes it and he says, oh, your

engine is, you know, blah, blah, blah.

And he says, where are you from?

And I'm like, well, I'm British.

And he goes, well, that's in Europe.

Yeah.

And then because he turns out
he was stationed in Europe,

you know, during the war.

And he, you know, he's actually traveled
a lot and blah, blah, blah, blah.

And he's right.

My engine is a bit of a shame.

And he, but he jump starts
me and wishes me Good day.

And then he and his granddaughter
drive off sipping beer and I watch him

go outta the driveway and then I see
them put the brakes on like that, the

two shotguns come outta the window.

Boom, boom.

As they're shooting at the squirrels
in my trees below on the road there.

And then they drive off.

And that's an, I live in Texas moment.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah, that's pretty Texas.

Yeah.

Nice.

Rupert Isaacson: Could you
read us your gray squirrel?

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

Can do that.

Rupert Isaacson: Another
will not be shamed animal.

I love it.

Jarod Anderson: Let me find it.

You'd think I'd have ency
encyclopedic knowledge of where

things are in this book, but

Rupert Isaacson: I can't remember
anything that I write about.

That's

Jarod Anderson: just not how
my brain works, you know?

Rupert Isaacson: Also, I love
to think about long, long format

podcast is, it doesn't matter.

You could take 10 minutes to find it.

We weed, you know?

Jarod Anderson: Oh, I love it.

Yeah.

I yeah, this is, this is my,
my strange squirrel story here.

I went to school for, for my master's in
Athens, Ohio, which is this hilly town.

It's in Appalachia, Ohio's interesting.

Two thirds of it, flat corn
fields, and that's where the

glacier came down and stopped.

But where the glacier stopped,
that's where what is officially

Appalachia and the US begins.

And so a third sort of southern
eastern counties of woods of

Ohio are steep hills and woods.

And that's not what
people picture for Ohio.

And

Rupert Isaacson: stunningly
beautiful, by the way.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

Oh, I love it.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Jarod Anderson: And so
that's where I went.

I went to, to university I, my
memories of Athens, Ohio, the brick

streets are always wet with rain.

It's an unseasonably warm winter day
that smells like overripe autumn.

The sycamore is gleam like bleached bones,
jutting from the hilltops, bright and

distinct among the sober university halls
re tan, bronze, and weathered concrete.

On one such day, the one endless day of
my Athens memories, I was walking to my

English department office in Ellis Hall
when I noticed a line of halted traffic.

I couldn't see why they had stopped
until I reached the front car.

I made eye contact with the driver.

She looked to the road
and I followed her gaze.

There on the wet bricks was a
gray squirrel tailed down, limbs

tucked inward, seemingly awake
and aware, but stoned still.

The driver gave me a micro shrug
and continued to wait for the

squirrel to do whatever it would do.

Somewhere down the line of
cars, a horn blasted, an angry

voice rose and fell on impulse.

I did something foolish.

I walked up to the squirrel.

She didn't move.

I reached down and laid a
hand on the squirrel's back.

She was warm and her heartbeat
drummed against my fingertips.

She still didn't move.

I scooped her up with two hands
and carried her out of the street.

And the years since that day, I have
been acquainted with wildlife rehabber

who have puckered scars from squirrel
bites, but I had no such experience.

Then behind me, I heard the traffic
resume, tires muttering on slick brick.

The squirrel was a soft furnace
vibrating like a tiny engine.

I considered what I knew about
tending to injured wildlife,

which was nothing at all.

The Road University Terrace was
cut into the hilltop, hemmed in

by sidewalks and a low stone wall
beyond which was a vast lawn.

I don't recall anyone commenting
on my actions, but Athens is an odd

place, a small Appalachian college
town where a man carrying a squirrel

might not rate a second look.

I placed the squirrel carefully in
the grass and expected to spend the

next few minutes as an uncomfortable
witness to the small creature's final

moments, standing sentinel as whatever
injury that had stilled her body.

Finished taking hold.

I withdrew my hands and stood the moment.

I did.

The squirrel rose and raced off toward
the nearest tree, a sprint and a leap.

Her plane of motion shifting
from horizontal to vertical as

she skidded up the trunk, then
vanished behind thick bows.

I wondered at her experience of events,
imagining her perspective, the fear

in the road, the inscrutable cars,
the touch of human skin, the return

to grass into a frantic moment of
escape, a rush, an arc through the

air, the flat winter sparse horizon,
transitioning to a branching highway,

stretching up toward a limitless sky.

I don't know if the squirrel had
fallen and was momentarily stunned.

I don't know if she visited the road
to lick salt and lost consciousness

due to some unguessable malady.

All I know is that the change in
position brick to grass, a return to

a familiar context, unlocked whatever
mechanism had held the creature.

Motionless.

We understand the world through
stories, the stories we hear of others,

role models and cautionary tales.

The stories we tell about ourselves
to ourselves, the constantly

unfolding saga of identity.

But what of the squirrels, they
clearly function just fine.

In a world without human narrative.

Is it possible for us to step outside our
own stories and imagine their worldview?

So that story and placing it in the
grass, unlocking it is kind of the

beginning of me getting to the metaphor
of sometimes the context is really what is

important, and it can often be invisible.

This idea that our identities are
built of stories, our understanding

of the world is built of stories.

And at a very young age, we're
handed a lot of stories that we

internalize and those become.

Our fundamental building
blocks of reality.

And so seeing those stories and
understanding that as storytellers we have

a role to play in shaping and reshaping
them is such a key part of, of what I

wanna tell people about mental illness.

Rupert Isaacson: It's really interesting
when one encounters these things

in nature that seem to go against
the physics of what should happen.

Like when a squirrel not only sits their
motionless and lets you pick it up, but

then also doesn't panic and bite you.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: But then seems to
return to its immediate health and go,

you know, what on earth is going on?

And you have to walk away
and say, I just don't know.

Jarod Anderson: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: But I'm so
grateful I had that experience.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: And I think
experiences like that in nature,

those kinds of ordinary miracles, but
nonetheless, when you tell anyone that

story, they're like, whoa, no way.

Because all of our understanding, all
of our story around squirrels is not,

that means that somehow something
went on that allowed you to have that

experience and then relate that experience

in healing context.

As you say, the context is always
invisible, is often invisible.

I like that.

That I think in.

A lot of things happen for healing.

And I, I, I, we can't see
it frequently at the time.

Serendipity, I think, you
know, comes into that.

I'm often intrigued by why do
animals and plants and rocks seem

to sometimes see what we need and
generously offer it across species.

Why do you think that is?

Jarod Anderson: I think, I think honestly
the question is, is the thing that we

have to interrogate because that idea
that we internalize all these early

stories, I think one of the big ones
is this idea that we're visitors to

nature, that we're like aliens coming
and, and visiting and tending and

controlling which is, you know, nonsense.

It's manifestly untrue.

Like every, every breath we take is a
call and response with phytoplankton

and the nations of forest.

It's, we're only alive
because we are fundamentally

intrinsically part of nature.

So why shouldn't it be
there as, as family for us?

Mm-hmm.

And, and be reaching toward
us anytime we reach for it.

I mean, sometimes I, I find that
just the intention of going to

nature, and that could be the woods.

You know, it could be, it
could be looking into the sky.

It could be finding a patch of like,
and on a sidewalk, but going with

the intent of connecting with the
broader world and sort of the, the

wholeness of, of the life around us.

And, and that's part of our story
and part of us just that intent

is, I think where you find that
nature is reaching back to help.

Right.

Give us what we need.

Rupert Isaacson: We
have to do the outreach.

If

Jarod Anderson: yes,

Rupert Isaacson: yes, if we
reach out it, we'll reach back.

Jarod Anderson: And it can be
imagination, you know, it can be

physically going to nature, nature.

Often it's both for me.

Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.

Jarod Anderson: But I find I do different
kinds of reaching for different days.

Like, there are days where I need movement
and I will go and I will, I will do

three miles in the woods pretty fast.

And the movement and the trees
and scanning my environment

is what feels healing to me.

And there are other days where I
go, I walk until I can't see a, a

parking lot or a car or, you know,
I, I can't see anything but trees.

And I just sit, I sit at the base
of an oak tree very still and

just let the scene unfold and.

There's nothing stagnant
or stationary about it.

You know, as I sit all sorts
of different animals come and

visit, I see different things.

I hear different things.

It's a completely different
experience than when I'm

trying to put miles behind me.

And it can be the same location, but
those are very different experiences

that fill different needs for me.

So what we take with us is, what
I'm saying is, is so important.

Rupert Isaacson: I I also like the
fact that you say it's all right to go

into nature in these different moods.

You know, frequently we're told we must
go in there to be still, or we must go

in there to forage, or we must go in.

And, and, and the truth is we must
go in there to do all these things.

And, and no, no one is
better than the other.

'cause nature is where we live.

It's planet Earth.

We might have forgotten that, but
outside the walls of the apartment

that we are living in, actually
it's, it's the same as it ever was.

It, these ideas, these kind, you know,
storytelling can be as negative as it's

positive as you know, shame is a story.

Mm-hmm.

So your orbital kingfisher hunting out.

The shame perhaps, and, and,
and I'm projecting my own story

onto your orbital king Fisher.

'cause I'm deciding that I like the
fact that it's hunting out shame.

'cause that makes me
feel healed in some way.

It may at all not be what your
idea of it was, but that's a

lovely thing about stories.

We can project ourselves, you
know, into and through story.

But the fact is it is a story.

And you know, animals presumably must
be living their own stories too, and

having stories and trees must be having
stories because we cannot be, if,

if, if things are, if it's, if it's a
conscious universe, if it's, if it's if

interlocking fields, if, if the quantum
state of reality is what physicists are

now beginning to agree upon then how can
we be the only storytellers out there?

We can't.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: It's just that, you
know, so did your squirrel have a story?

And the other thing I like about
your squirrel story is that what

really stands out to me naturally,
of course, is the squirrel's

behavior and, and the enigma of that.

But also the lady in the car who was
willing to stop and wait, knowing

that all those people behind her.

Eventually someone will probably get
out and probably give her a hard time.

But she was going to.

Not run over that squirrel.

And she also wasn't gonna get out of her
car and try to chase the squirrel off.

There was something in her that was
saying, it's worth instinctively

in this moment to give this
squirrel the space, even though

I'm going to be shamed by the Yeah.

People behind me.

And then also something
that instinctively, and you

said, this is the moment to

take that story to its next chapter,

that lady stopping the car.

You picking the squirrel up,
the squirrel not biting you.

Again, just makes me think about how
loving nature is this idea that it, you,

you say something in the woods loves you.

And we are the same.

We are a very loving species.

You know, not everyone automatically tries
to run the squirrel over or chase it off.

Not everybody instinctively thinks, well
I, I can't pick that squirrel up because

it might mess me up and, and it might.

Jarod Anderson: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: But maybe your gut
in that moment for whatever, you know,

so they're the animals living this,
there's nature living it's stories

in, in relation to us, and there's.

Th those three, you, the
squirrel, the lady are all

behaving in a very loving manner.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: And that, that
seems to me the basic energy

of nature is that it is love

Jarod Anderson: to, to go on a complete
tangent here, but it's related my mind.

That's, that's a thing I'm
often thinking about in terms

of modernity and social media.

That worries me.

Because I mean, what's the opposite
of the idea that there's sort of

internal loving mindset to reality?

Well, social media and a lot of
people seem to be living inside

these virtual non-space as if it's
their real environment these days.

And

I don't think everyone really
understands the fact that it's

not a natural environment.

Like the algorithms we have science that
show that it steers you toward posts,

engagements meant to trigger kind of fear,
anxiety, anger, because those capture

your attention and keep you scrolling.

And so we have these evolved
brains that, you know, walk,

walk the path, scan for threats.

And then we have these, these
marketing engineers who have

found a way to kind of hack that.

All right.

We'll give you a thread, every
three steps and then, you know, give

Rupert Isaacson: your attention.

Yeah,

Jarod Anderson: yeah.

And we find ourselves living in this,
this space, and I feel like it's really

doing some damage to the idea you were
saying that nature is loving, that the

world is loving, that there's something
intrinsically loving to the universe.

Well, there are a lot of people who
are living through their screens and

thinking that it's a window, it's not
a window, it's not showing you reality.

It's showing you a very specifically
crafted kind of experience that is

telling you that you live in a world
of threat and, and danger and outrage.

And that's not to say that, you
know, a, a lot of the issues aren't

real, are manufactured, but it's
the concentration and intensity of

the way you get them presented when
you're living through, through screens

instead of walking a landscape.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Jarod Anderson: And it really worries
me kind of about, about the general

outlook I see in the zeitgeist
about what nature is, what the world

is, what our role is in nature.

I yeah, go, go ahead.

Rupert Isaacson: No, you go ahead.

Jarod Anderson: Well, I, I got a, I've
gotten messages before from people who

just see humanity as a cancer and that
it's a mistake and that, you know,

we are, we're a but you'd be behaving

Rupert Isaacson: like that that way a bit.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

And, and certainly, you know, the,
the threats and the harms are real.

But the idea that there is no positive
interaction between human beings

and nature, that the best thing you
can do is stay away or not exist.

And, you know, that's, that's kind
of heartbreaking as someone who

feels like, you know, we're intrinsic
parts of nature that we're, we're

animals on the, on this planet.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, also somebody
who, who's, you know, you're wearing

the mental health, you know, thing
on your sleeve that, you know, it's,

that's letting the, the shame story win.

Right.

You know, and you don't have shame.

You

Jarod Anderson: are shame.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: That's, that's brutal.

Indeed.

Indeed.

We are shame all of us.

Yeah.

But the, what I would say to that,
'cause I'm an eternal optimist, is while

it is true that people have replaced
sex cells with fear cells, with anger

cells, and that is kind of been the
progression of the social media evolution.

What is also true in those algorithms is
people are going to find your book and

they're going to find this conversation
through an algorithm, and they're going

to find a conversation about why shame is
actually a construct through an algorithm.

And they're going to find a conversation
about why we are a loving species.

And nature is essentially.

Benign, I think, through an algorithm.

So no matter how much social media
tries to do that, or the architects

who are perhaps not such great
actors who are controlling it,

Jarod Anderson: yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Even they can't
control the natural mycelium type

growth of the whole thing to say.

Yeah.

But, you know, Ru and Jared are gonna
kind of come together through Ru's

mate Liana, who's doing this work for
the, in the, you know, penitentiaries

or whatever, the Lockdowns in
Michigan and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.

And, you know, well that's gonna
come through an algorithm too,

so I wouldn't have found you.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: It's,

Jarod Anderson: it's a

Rupert Isaacson: good point.

I, yeah,

Jarod Anderson: I live on a little
one way street next to a, a cemetery

in a town that isn't very big.

So Yeah, I'm, I'm having a lovely
conversation with a writer in Spain right

now, and that's, there's no reason that
would be happening if not for Right.

We're the technology

Rupert Isaacson: because this
will go through YouTube and

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Apple or something
or other, and all those other portals

that people find these conversations.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah, yeah.

The connection is real.

I just sometimes worry about, about
you know, in terms of intentionality,

ly context, a couple of old

Rupert Isaacson: buggers, but Yeah.

Jarod Anderson: Well, yeah, but
the, the intentionality and context

and just kind of being aware of.

Storytelling animals.

We understand the world and our place and
through stories, but there are so many

people there ready to hand you a pre-made
story and without your participation.

And just being a little bit aware
of that and what impact it has

on you is, is, is a huge just a
vital, a vital task for all of us.

Because a lot of people will hand you
stories that, that have nothing to do

with serving you or, or your happiness.

Rupert Isaacson: Certainly.

Certainly.

And we've had that since we've had, you
know, cautionary fairytales and scaring

each other around the fires at night.

Jarod Anderson: Homilies

Rupert Isaacson: right now, some
of those things are actually

designed to keep you alive.

But also you can just tell 'em 'cause
they're scary just for the sake of scare.

Yeah.

The thing about, you know, one
could say, well, all you need to

do in order to rebel against that
is go for a walk in the woods.

And then I thought, yeah, but
what if you can't reach the woods?

Mm-hmm.

And I had this writing student who
was a little girl from South Korea who

came to us in Germany to our stable.

And she was.

Passionate about horses, had her between
the ages of eight and 10, and she was one

of the sweetest human beings I've ever
come across to the point that people in

my team, we'd almost fight for who got,
who got to go with Suji that day, we'd

be like, no, no, you had her last week.

Because just being in her
presence was really healing.

She was just one of those
people that carried that light.

And she knew she was gonna have to go
back to Seoul, and that when she got

back to Seoul, there would be no horses
and there would be no German forest.

And when the week came approaching
her having to go back, I was

thinking, what, what can I do?

What can I do?

And I thought what I need to do is implant
this experience of riding in the German

forest in her psyche in a way that she
feels she can call upon it anytime.

So we made these rides, meditations
into imagining herself in an apartment

in Seoul, imagining this ride, and then
imagining where the ride would lead

and watching herself grow up and making
money, and then being able to buy horses

and then being able to buy a place
in the forest and being able to find

a partner that liked horses and live
that life and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.

And she then really ran with
this and began to construct

her own stories as we rode.

And that occasionally she, of
course, she did go back to Saul and

exactly what she feared happened.

Would happen, would happen, happened.

But she does write me from time to time
and say, I follow those stories and

I know that those stories will lead
me to back to a horse in a forest.

I think the work that you are doing
where you say, okay, let's say you

can't get into nature, but you can
imagine it and maybe you don't know

maybe you're not a actress, you're
not a budding David Attenberg.

So you dunno what tree it is or what
bird it is and okay, then there's

the shame of not, or you can imagine
something completely different like you

horned wolf or your orbital kingfisher.

And if I've been at the trance fires
with the sun Bushman healers and they

describe to me the entities that they
encounter when they're in the spirit

world, many of them are not dissimilar
from the orbital kingfisher and the many

miles shadow and the, and the horned wolf.

You know, we are love it the species
that we are, we're going to come up

with these metaphors, you know, no
matter where we are 'cause nature's

in us and we are nature and so on.

But one of the things I love about
your work is that for people who are

in that situation, whether they're
like my friendly Anna's people who

are perhaps not able to access nature
despite living in the middle of Michigan,

unless she takes them out in it or it's.

My friend Suji there in Seoul, or even
just someone who is in nature, but

just so locked in their head through
depression that they can't feel they

can access the loving side of it.

I think that those works of imagination
bring imagination and nature together,

which is a shamanic experience as old as
humanity itself, but must be reinvented

and reinterpreted for every generation.

You're doing that work.

Jarod Anderson: Oh, thank you.

I think it's you.

Rupert Isaacson: You
are doing healing work.

Yeah.

Jarod Anderson: Can I read a poem or two?

Rupert Isaacson: I

was

Jarod Anderson: reading into this topic.

Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

Jarod Anderson: All right.

You're you, you made me think of a
poem here that this is a poem called

Orcas, which I do not have in Ohio.

Somewhere.

There are orcas.

I'm in my little gray house in Ohio
surrounded by the stale air of winter

indoors, but somewhere there are orcas.

It's an easy fact to forget.

It's easy to shrink your world to
what you can see, but thankfully

somewhere there are orcas.

Sometimes my world is all sun faded,
plastic scrolled along the roadside

and a scribble of petty meanness.

But somewhere there are orcas.

We all know facts that are
as inert as chalk dust, but

some knowledge is medicine.

So I, I never see orcas, but they
can still be medicine for me.

And sometimes I reach for the
fantastical in imagination, and

sometimes I reach for just literal facts.

And sometimes it's animals
and sometimes it's a concept.

Let me, let me drop one short
poem on you, that it's a concept

in nature poem that, that I love.

This one's called Naming the River.

The water in your body is just visiting.

It was a thunderstorm a week ago.

It will be an ocean.

Soon enough, most of your cells
come and go like, morning due.

We are more weather pattern
than stone monument.

Sunlight on mist.

Summer lightning.

Your choices outweigh your substance.

Like I, I'm constantly ruminating on what
just the bare facts of my physical reality

are, and then taking those and running
them through a filter or a lens of, of

my imagination, taking my sense of wonder
and connection, and then letting that

interpret these, these bare facts for me.

And even when I can't get out of the
house sometimes that's all I need too.

To feel that connection to nature.

Which is funny because sometimes
it feels like a leap of faith.

And, and other times I think to myself,
well, all I'm doing is looking at sort

of bare uncontestable facts, like,
like the water cycle or orcas exist.

And I have a 6-year-old son who, who
sometimes reminds me of this process

just, just through his questions.

I mean, he, he came up to me once and
asked me if electric eels were real.

And I thought, wow, what a
reasonable question and, and what

a bizarre answer I have for you.

Yes.

And I've seen him

Rupert Isaacson: and thank heavens
that my answer is the bizarre one.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

But I mean, so much of our, of the
bare facts of our world are bizarre.

It's just that it can fade from,
from your mind and from your

awareness through familiarity.

But I've seen my son shake with
excitement about a bumblebee, you know?

Yeah.

And, and if you think you'd been,
let's use our imaginations and think

we've been traveling through space
for a thousand years, and you're in

a vacuum, and you're in, you're in
a, a clean, white lined spaceship.

Traveling, traveling, traveling.

And you encounter a bumblebee.

What a singular, fascinating
alien, amazing mind blowing thing.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Jarod Anderson: And, you know,
we, we can take for granted that,

that I see 'em bouncing around
the forest floor in, in May.

But, but I try not to let
that familiarity rob me.

I mean, I said lichen
on a sidewalk earlier.

If you don't know, look
into what lichen is like.

Lichen is two animals living together.

It's a garden and it's a gardener.

It's a shepherd.

And it's, it's a, it's a herd and
it's hard to tell which is which when

you're looking at the photosynthesizing
organism and the fungi and like

lichen is fascinating and I kind of
defy you to show me a place where you

can't find it outside of, you know,
the permafrost, you can find lichen.

It's just reaching for the wonder.

If you really reach sincerely for wonder
and, and you come to it as a student,

I think you will find it reaching back.

Rupert Isaacson: If you reach for
wonder and you come at it as a student,

you will find it reaching back.

Have you written that down?

Jarod Anderson: No,

Rupert Isaacson: I think you should.

I should.

Huh?

Should that down?

Jarod Anderson: I have,

Rupert Isaacson: I want 50%.

No, I mean 80.

Sorry.

As you're,

Jarod Anderson: thank you for your
writer brain pointing out that I should

Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

Write it down quickly.

That is very good.

Jarod Anderson: I mean, the
student part is important, right?

It's, I think

Rupert Isaacson: because it's humility.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

And, and the times I have felt most stuck
and trapped and stagnant in my life is

when I, I let my ego get out in front.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Jarod Anderson: And like, I've figured
it all out and it sucks, you know?

Rupert Isaacson: Well, because figuring
stuff out, figuring it all out would suck.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Isn't that

Jarod Anderson: and is impossible.

Like I, I sometimes look out my,
my window here and, you know, I

can see a blue spruce tree and if
I dedicated my entire life to just

being a student of that one tree.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

I

Jarod Anderson: don't, I don't know
that I ever stopped being a neophyte,

a newcomer into what that tree is
and does and feels and how it's

connected with a host of microorganisms
in the soil and on and on and on.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Jarod Anderson: And that's
just one tree I can see.

Like, the world is amazing and full of
limitless opportunities to be amazed.

Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

Jarod Anderson: But she's not gonna
kick down your door, you know,

you do have to, you do have to go.

Or just open yourself up and invite it in.

Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

Listen, we are at the two hour mark.

I would like you to
come back on this show.

Jarod Anderson: Great.

Rupert Isaacson: And talk about some
specific things about some of the,

the themes that we've touched on
particularly somewhere there at Orcus.

Jarod Anderson: Hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: Because
yeah, this idea that

the fact that it exists beyond
your site can give you fact.

Like, you know, people say,
well, prove to me that God

exists 'cause you can't see him.

That's a really nice analogy.

It's like, well, I can't see orcas.

Jarod Anderson: Hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: But I know they're there.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

I haven't seen a documentary with
David Ner about God with pictures of

God, you know, ju leaping through the
Arctic Ocean, unless the orcas are God.

And then I,

Jarod Anderson: I think I'd rather
have Steve Irwin on that one.

I know.

Rupert Isaacson: So I think
people are gonna, you know,

find you have a website, right?

Tell us the website.

Jarod Anderson: I do.

I do.

It's, it's jared k anderson.com

or you can find me anywhere on
social media as Jared k Anderson

or the Crypto naturalist.

Rupert Isaacson: And the, is the
crypto naturalist still going?

The podcast?

Jarod Anderson: It's on hiatus, but
there are, I think, 70 episodes up.

And you can kind of start anywhere

Rupert Isaacson: to get
their teeth into that.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

And now this, the book I have
coming out in February is sort of

a, a capstone to that whole series.

So

Rupert Isaacson: tell us again
the, the, the name of the the book,

Jarod Anderson: It's called Strange
Animals, and it comes out February 10th.

Rupert Isaacson: Ballantine books.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

Which, which I was really warmed by
them buying it because I, my copy

of The Hobbit was from Ballantine.

They're, they're sort of an
old classic fantasy publisher.

So there were, there were maybe
a few tiers when, when they

decided to, to publish that novel.

Rupert Isaacson: I'm gonna ask you
to leave us with one more poem.

Jarod Anderson: Absolutely.

Hmm.

Choices.

All right.

I think I have an
appropriate one for us here.

This one's called Woodland U.

It's easy to look at the
contours of a forest and feel

a bone deep love for nature.

It's less easy to remember that the
contours of your own body represent the

exact same nature, the pathways of your
mind, your dreams, dark and strange as

sprouts curling beneath a flat rock.

Your regret bitter as the
citrus rock of old cut grass.

It's the same as the nature.

You make time to love that you
practice loving the forest, the

meadow, the sweeping arm of a galaxy.

You are as natural as any postcard
landscape, and deserve the same love.

Rupert Isaacson: I'm very glad that
my friend Leanna turned me onto you,

and I'm very glad that, thank you.

Other listeners asked me to have you on.

I would come

Jarod Anderson: back.

Thank you.

I'd love to.

Yeah, I would love to.

I you might, you might have gotten a sense
I could talk about these things forever,

so I I had no idea that was two hours.

If you

Rupert Isaacson: hadn't, we enjoy it.

Well, that's the lovely thing
about these long format.

I, I, I love the fact that one
has the freedom to explore.

Like this is, you know, I I, it
was always something which I always

found, you know, rather stressful.

You know, when people interview you and
you know, you've gotta be interviewed

and plug the book, blah, blah, blah, and
they, you know, you know, you've got 15

minutes or you've got eight minutes, or
you've got three minutes, or you've got

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: That's what I love about
podcasts and maybe this is one of the,

the nice things about social media now

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Is actually, you
know, you can just let, let it unfold

naturally because, you know, people
are just gonna listen to it in chunks.

Yeah.

Jarod Anderson: I've never, I never
like a podcast and wish it was shorter.

I don't, I don't understand
the mindset of No

Rupert Isaacson: un unless
it just happens to be a great

short conversation, then Sure.

Brilliant.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: But yes to say,
well this is a 20 minute format.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah, it's, it,
it's me thinking of, of, of shows.

I know where they cut the interview
off because they're reaching the,

the 30 minute mark or something.

It's like, why?

It's a podcast.

It's not like you're, you're
in the way of the next show.

Like, just keep going.

Right.

You know?

Rupert Isaacson: It's because the
podcaster has to go change the

nappy on his kid or something.

Jarod Anderson: Well, that, yeah,
that could be, that could be right.

Yeah.

Well, thank you so much.

This, this has been so
lovely and yeah, yeah.

Really nice.

Excited to talk, talk to you again.

Rupert Isaacson: I'm, I'm
really grateful for this.

It was, it was brilliant.

I'm gonna go feed ponies.

Jarod Anderson: All right.

I'm gonna try to get some words written.

Wish me luck.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, now I'm
feeling shamed, so I, I better go.

It's not your fault.

But it's, no, it's inspiration.

I need to, I need to
work a bit more on that.

Jarod Anderson: I'm, I'm up against a
the dandelion book is due in, in January.

So,

Rupert Isaacson: but we
love a good deadline.

It's, it's, it's, I love a good deadline.

Jarod Anderson: We do.

I, I, I both hate them and recognize
their value, and so we need

' Rupert Isaacson: em.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah.

I, I, I keep jumping into them because
I know it's, it's how I get things

Rupert Isaacson: done.

It's nature.

Again, you're not gonna go hunt and
lay down the meat for winter and the

firewood unless, you know winter's coming.

Jarod Anderson: Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Jarod Anderson: It's one of the one
grateful things I am too, about being

in traditional publishing because I
self-publish the poetry collections

and the traditional gives me deadlines.

So

Rupert Isaacson: indeed, you

Jarod Anderson: know,

Rupert Isaacson: and

Jarod Anderson: All right.

Thank you, Ru.

Rupert Isaacson: We'll see you next time.

Jarod Anderson: Bye.

Rupert Isaacson: Cheers, man.

Bye-bye.

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