Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.

Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New
York Times bestselling author of

The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.

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So now let's jump in.

Today again, I have a great hero
of mine, Henrich Berkhoff from near

Munster in Germany, who has and
still leads an extraordinary life,

both as a special needs father,
as a politician, as a protector of

children's rights on the political
level and on the practical level.

And as a farmer, the first organic
farmer in his neighborhood.

And the person who was brought movement
in learning into schools in Germany.

Extraordinary human being.

So, he's gonna come out of
the forest right now because

that's where he likes to be.

So, berko, would you please
come outta the forest?

Hey welcome to the show, Henrich.

Yeah, this looks an unusual place
for a a podcast interview to happen.

You appear to be outside in the forest.

Why is that?

Yeah, that is

Henrich Berkhoff: easy.

The the nature and the forest
is a big part of the nature.

It's a quite nice place to be.

Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: indeed.

Why is the forest a nice place to be?

Henrich Berkhoff: The simple
answer is we are gathering and

hunting humans, and that means.

For everybody.

But for me it is, we are so
similar with the nature, but

we forgot all these things.

And now we have the ation,
globalization, and the digital

world that is not so good to us.

And if we honestly hearing what
is the best place to be, we always

choose the nature at the beach,
in the mountains or in the green.

And that is true easy.

If you feel if you're following,
following your feeling, you stay

Rupert Isaacson: outside.

It's very true.

It's very true.

It's good for our brain.

It's where we're supposed to be.

Before we dive into the rest of
the interview you mentioned that

you might have a little music
for us, music from the Nature.

Do you want to show us what you mean?

Henrich Berkhoff: Yes, please.

I hope it works.

Not too loud.

Rupert Isaacson: So, Henrich
tell us what you do, who are

you and how did you get here?

Henrich Berkhoff: Yeah, thank you Ru for
being here and to have this nice time with

you at the podcast and yeah, who I am.

Owner now with my wife from a farm
here in the middle of Germany and

we managed this farm and we get this
farm from my parents 25 years ago.

And then I worked here as a
farmer, but no fully time.

And I study engineering in
billing, construction also.

And I worked there for 15 years.

And then we thinking about what is the
best way, but that is a special reason.

Yeah.

You ask me what I am and who I am now.

I am, I am a politician
in this area also here.

I so useful to make something happened
if you know the people with the

power of the, to make a decision.

And I make it for mainly children.

I am the chairman of the board and
I'm the founder of this children

Protection thing here in this area.

We started in 2004, and that is yeah, a
protection association for this district.

And also I'm I start this new
association, the new trails for Germany.

That is another story we, we have
to think about or talk about later.

Yes.

That is all I do here, and in the time
it comes more and more other things.

In the addition to this, if you was
in this world, you are, you, you will

be asked for, to help, for, to do
this or to think about the next Yeah.

And, and le at least I start master
studies at the University of Bon.

There's a special university,
aos, they have a title that is

very interesting, researching
pedagogic social and therapeutic

processes, initiating impulses.

That means what is work, good
work in the practice every day.

To put it in the science world, and that
is so cool to reframe things like this.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

So you, you basically, you, you're
like me, you wear 20 different hats.

You, you're a farmer.

You were the first organic
farmer in your area.

I think that's something
we'd like to talk about.

You as you say, run the child
protection group in your area and

founded that you work in special
education and general education.

You work with nature and the mind
with people at your farm and you

also go around Germany and the
world educating people on all this.

And you go and speak to the scientists
and the politicians because you

cleverly are a politician to get
decisions made for the betterment of.

Let's say children's experiences in
schools and the availability of nature.

This is an extraordinary endeavor.

Why do you do this?

And how did you get here?

You have a special reason
that pushed you into this.

Tell us about it.

Henrich Berkhoff: Yeah,
there's a good question.

Thank you for that.

If you start at the boy in the
area like this, you are especially

in your, your father is a farmer.

You are in this world.

And, but it is a normal thing.

You have it every day and it is so, nice,
but you don't recognize by yourself.

What a nice environment there.

Okay.

I grew up and then luckily, I,
I met a nice woman that is my,

my wife now gi, you know her.

And we plan together to
have a nice to nice place.

We have a nice place and we plant
a nice family and a nice life.

Okay.

But in the time of ion pre
pregnancy Of my pregnancy?

Yeah, pregnancy, sorry.

Of my, but they, they, they, they,
in the 20 weeks of the 40 weeks my

wife called me and she explained me.

Our baby is not healthy.

It is it is in this spina bifida.

Rupert Isaacson: Spina bifida.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Henrich Berkhoff: Perhaps
somebody knows that.

But in this time, I have
no idea what this is.

We have a special word in German for this.

Okay.

I.

Remember that word?

And it was not nice, really, that
you, if you are thinking of your

food future of your life, you are
thinking, okay, this can be happening.

This can be happening, but this and this.

Please know.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

And nobody wants to be
a special needs parent.

Henrich Berkhoff: Nobody.

Nobody really.

And, but this comes and it, we
have a situation here in Germany.

We have the rights to kill
the baby at this time.

Rupert Isaacson: A, a late abortion.

Effectively.

Henrich Berkhoff: Yeah.

And

Rupert Isaacson: or to carry the
baby, to kill the baby in the womb,

and then carry the baby to the end.

No, in the,

Henrich Berkhoff: in the, in, in inside.

The, and this is, every
doctor said, Hey, it is your.

Think about your life.

Think about the life of this human.

It's not so nice here.

You, we have all the
letters that can happen.

That can, this can happen.

This is not easy to handle.

That is, that means so many surgeries and
we cannot say if he's healthy enough to

speak healthy enough to have normal life.

And how many disabilities they,
they give it all this shitty news.

Rupert Isaacson: Right?

Because it wasn't just
spina bifida, was it?

It was also hydrocephalus.

Yeah.

Henrich Berkhoff: Water on the brain.

Most, if you have this thing, mostly
you have this hydrocephalus thing, and

that means your brain is under pressure.

Yeah, good things.

We have now this medicine,
they can do something and that

is another podcast perhaps.

But first we have the information from
the doctors, from the maybe society

say that, hey, that is not a good way.

Please choose the easy
way, whatever that means.

What is the easy way?

Yeah.

Easy way is you have a house, you have
a nice life, you have a nice woman.

And, and, and, and, but now we
are asking directly and we have

to choose this way, the easy way.

I don't know.

We choose the other way.

And at it was a hard way.

Yes, of course.

It was not easy.

Julian, our oldest from the three boys.

Born is in 2002 and the first two years,
maybe little breaks, but he lives in the

university clinic in nearby in this in
Minster and my wife the first two years.

Yeah.

We have little breaks.

Wow.

We have little breaks with surgery

Rupert Isaacson: after surgery.

After surgery.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Henrich Berkhoff: 13
surgeries in this time.

Geez.

13.

Some, some human, some people have no
one surgery in, in their whole life.

He is a little, little tiny
baby, and he wants to live.

Mm-hmm.

He show us, Hey, I'm here.

Please give me a chance
to discover the world.

That happened.

He's a strong boy.

He's fighting and there was many crisis.

It was not, not easy gi,

Rupert Isaacson: I can only imagine.

Yeah,

Henrich Berkhoff: yeah.

Git was most time there.

She lives nearby in the
special rooms for parents.

And yeah, this was a hard time.

But you, what I'm wondering, and I
never know it before, is what powerful

thing inside the parents to fight
for this baby in the moment the baby

is on, on the world, you can see and
you can hold the baby this moment.

You are the powerful person ever.

And you cannot imagine it before.

You have no chance.

But then you are.

Able to do everything for your baby.

And that happened.

You are in the process.

And today I have sometimes the
photos from this time, this

little human baby lie in the bed.

Was this, what is heating and all the
instruments, all the cables and what

everything you cannot, you on the picture
is more technique than human things.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Yeah.

Henrich Berkhoff: If I saw a picture
to Dave from this time that is

I'm say, look what happened there.

But in this you can handle it.

You can give a chance to a human
life and that is what we have to do.

That is not our decision to
do in it is in my opinion.

Or may we, it is not.

To say, oh, this is a good life,
or That is not a good life.

Julian choose his way.

And he did it wonderful, but not easy.

Yeah.

It is so many crisis, so many
things until today it's not easy.

But hey, what, what is
important in your life?

And if you never go down, you have no idea
how nice it is on the top of the hill.

Yeah.

And that is what we have to learn the
most dreaming from everybody is you have

a street straight, nice and easy to go.

Mm-hmm.

And hey, what is.

The best learning in the world.

It's not happened on this road.

It is if you go upsides in the ditches
or whatever, and you have to fight

and you have to climb out of this
situation, that is a learning process.

And that is where we created as a human.

That is what we are talk about later,
and that is the gr the ground of

the next decisions you are ask for.

And that is why we are
today at this this farm.

And that is a re a reason
of how we do this work now.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, no, I mean,
your, your story is obviously.

Somewhat similar to mine
but with my autistic son.

And that forced me to change the
direction with my life, with my career.

And now that is what I do.

But there's a big difference in your
experience, which is that my son

never had the medical, physical,
medical complications that your

son has, has had, and still has.

And this takes even more
strength and will to.

Handle because you are dealing
with a very direct existential

threat to your own child.

Your child could die
in those early phases.

And then with every surgery, and
I've known you since 2017, and even

in that time I have known Julian
going through these surgeries.

Some quite big ones.

And each time there is this
question, will the person survive?

Will the surgery be successful?

And to deal with this kind of
anxiety while still building,

working, and doing all the things
that you do, this takes a special.

Personality, both.

I know Giddy your wife very well.

Obviously she's also a colleague of mine.

And for those listeners to my
other podcast, equine Assisted

World, please go and listen to
Giddy KO's podcast there because

she's an extraordinary human being.

She of course had a background as a nurse
and not just as a hospital nurse, but

also a nurse dealing with dementia and
psychological neuropsychological issues.

So it's very interesting.

People say you get given the challenge
that you can handle by life annoyingly.

So your wife is there.

She already has this medical knowledge.

She already has this neuro.

Psychological knowledge and your son
is born both with a physical condition

and with pressure on the brain.

Someone might look from the
outside and say, well great,

but it's not quite so easy.

Yeah.

And then, and then there's you coming
in and what do you think made you say,

when the doctors effectively said,
Berko, I think you should terminate

your child's life before he's born.

And I'm sure they made a
very strong case for this.

What made you look at the next 50
years and say, ah, if, fuck it.

Sure it'll be grand and do it.

Talk to us about this.

It's intriguing.

Henrich Berkhoff: Yeah,
you are right for me was.

The answer of this question
of the doctors only one way.

Mm-hmm.

I, my personality is, I'm always positive.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Henrich Berkhoff: And in
every situation, yeah.

There may be thousand of bad situation
for everybody, but you have the choice.

And in, I thought about, hey,
we can handle this every day.

This shitty situation, there was
a lot of, but we can handle it the

other way means that is the end.

Mm-hmm.

And that produce so many question.

Rupert Isaacson: That is true.

Henrich Berkhoff: What can, in,
in, in special in this, you, you

in the future on this other way.

You, you have the me you.

Have the knowledge of other people, they
are happy in the wheelchair and they

make their special Olympics or whatever.

Hey, on you end at the at
the beginning, at the start.

Mm-hmm.

And that is not what I'm thinking in.

And I say, Hey, this other way, it is not
the easiest way, but we can, we, every

day we have to choose what can we do?

And believe me, we can do more
with our power, human power that

we ever, ever thinking about.

Mm-hmm.

And we, I have, and GI also, we have
no idea, but we go, we we're on this

way with the life and not against.

Is our decision.

Some parents and especially some woman's
mothers are not able to do this way.

Yeah, we have respect also, but this way
was for GT and me the best, and we have

so many meetings with other families,
they are in front of the same question.

We have meetings with this families.

This is same question, and we say,
Hey, look here, we choose this way

because we can answer every day a
question, whatever the question are.

The other way is you cannot
answer every, not answer the.

One of the question you have

that is the different, what is,

Rupert Isaacson: what is so interesting
to me is, as you say, not everybody

will make the same decision.

And there are people in life
circumstances for whom, as you say,

we must respect that they would make
a different decision to you and giddy.

You come from a farming background, you
come from a farming family background

and you have quite a large family.

I know your mother very well, atti
who's, you know, someone to whom we must

always give our gratitude and respect.

She's, you know, one of the most
wonderful human beings that I know.

So you were fortunate, I
suppose, that you lived in.

An environment where there was
tribe, we could say, do you think

this affected your decision?

F for example, if you had been
living in an apartment in the

middle of the city perhaps no
family or maybe as a single parent.

Of course we can only speculate because
this was not your circumstance, but

do you think that Julian's life also
owes itself to some degree, to this

tribal culture that you come from?

Henrich Berkhoff: Yeah.

Well, that is a nice question.

I, I talk about this meetings with
other families in the same situation.

Mm-hmm.

And there was one meeting with.

16 old year mother or becoming a mother.

This girl is such in the end of the
school time and start in the profession.

And she was also pregnant and she
was also the same think, concentrate.

And this girl says, no,
I have to go this way.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

Henrich Berkhoff: And you asking for, is
it a tribe, a family, a social life thing?

But in my perspective now, I, I
thought the tribe come to this point.

If you are in this situation,
the the tribe come to you.

Right.

We, we have no idea, Hey, come,
we can handle it easily with a

family, with blah, blah, blah.

No.

That, that, that was not, and in our
thinking, we, we, we are not looking to

the family, to the round and what, uh mm.

We, we have the, to do this decision.

And in this decision you are alone.

But if you go this way, we
think it's a, not, not, that is

obviously not the easiest way.

Maybe Yeah.

Is easier.

Yeah.

And that the tribe comes and that
is how we developed this farm and

how we met this wonderful person
in the horse boy tribe world.

And that is, comes all from this point.

To make it happen, to choose the way.

And in this thinking of our son
Julian, he had no decision to do.

He is growing up, not in the
best and healthiest thing, but

you want to go the way which is
designed for every human being.

You know,

Rupert Isaacson: it's so
interesting what you say.

The tribe will come to you because
when my son was diagnosed, I was

living on a remote farm in Texas.

My ex-wife and I.

Had no extended family and actually
relatively few friends because the

friends that we had, they all lived
in the nearby city, which was Austin,

but not in the village out 45 minutes
outside of Austin where we lived.

So we really found ourselves isolated.

And it's so interesting that you
say the tribe will come to you

because that's exactly what happened.

When we began to work with my son
and then somehow naturally with other

children with a similar condition
in the area, the tribe just arrived.

And when I looked up three or
four years after the diagnosis,

the diagnosis was 2004.

The, I was looking up in around 2000 and.

Seven or so.

And so there was already by then a
tribe that had been created around him.

It's almost as if these special
children create their own tribes.

They seem to bring out the best in
people, and people seem to feel better

and perhaps even somewhat healed when
they're in the presence of special needs.

Either that or they reject
completely and they go the other way.

So I think you're right.

I, you know, but so, I mean,

you're right that the tribe will come,
but this is of course something very

scary for people if they're facing this.

Oh, yes.

As an unknown.

So I think hearing you say
that is, is of great use.

And now of course your son
is doing incredibly well.

Please just tell us a little bit
how Julian is doing now and then,

because there's, I want to ask
you about where that experience

with Julian has brought you.

Henrich Berkhoff: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Ru how is he doing now?

Henrich Berkhoff: I will answer
this question, but I have a thought.

The tribe comes to you and
why it is this happened.

If you were before you were
alone, maybe you have not easy

things and nothing happened.

There's nothing that you nobody comes.

You are foreign.

Your own idea of your life in this moment,
you go the most people are following their

way straightly, and they are not able or
not looking under this or this side, and.

We were bombed out of
this straight way path.

And then we have to reorganize our
life, our thinking, our pop, pop, pop.

In this moment, the new tribe
is coming up and building up.

If we following the mainstream,
maybe we, we have a nice life.

Perfect, but we never thinking
about this things right on left,

on the straight, mainstream way.

And if you want to feel the right life and
so many people are looking and searching

this, yeah, you have to go in this other.

Areas in this other thinkings,
and we have no chance to do.

Nobody choose is by your own.

But we are bombed and we are landing
in this other new world and the humans

can create a new life and new we, we
have this brain here and we can do this.

Okay.

And that is what I thought if you
asking me question about Julian

today, and he's a young boy.

He is 23 years.

And he goes to the school after
he first he stand one year and the

special needs school, but that is too
far away and that needs one hour to

bring him there and one hour back.

And I.

We thought, Hey, two hours from a
whole day from this little 7-year-old

boy, it's only sitting in the car.

It's not so nice.

And then we ask the school here in the,
in, in our village, but the, they said,

oh, you are one boy in the wheelchair.

Well, we are not cons.

Our construction is not so,
is our barriers and pop up and

yeah, it's the special needs
school is better for your son.

And then we, we, we talk to other people
with other parents, with special needs

kiddos, otherwise me and, and all this.

And we make five parents together
and we go to the school and say,

Hey, now you have five special needs
students here at your school, please.

Can we start here?

And in Germany you can choose
your cho school and then the

Rupert Isaacson: that's very interesting.

Yeah.

Yeah.

'cause in many countries
that's not possible.

Henrich Berkhoff: Yeah.

Yeah.

We, we, we, here in Germany, you have the
choice and they have to organize this.

And they said, oh, we, our thinking
is with every child in the school,

you have three hours a special
needs teacher, and now we are five

in a class of 25 up to 30 people.

That means five, three
hours for every child.

15 hours, you have an additional
teacher in your class.

And that is cool.

Not only cool for the
special needs kiddos.

Right.

Every student in the class is nice.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Henrich Berkhoff: And also with
Julian, we bring a assistant

because it is, it's a wheelchair.

It's not so easy to handle
all their stuff in the school.

And then is Yeah, then we, that,
that means we have up to three

people, not every hour, but in the
main school time, we have three

people in the primary school time.

And that was very cool.

And it was a, so successful the school
become a ordinary perfect school and

other school direct direct send us
teacher, Hey, have a look in this school.

There is inclusion happened in the
school time and is successful too.

Yeah.

And this is a cool.

Time because it was nearby five
minutes away and it is the social Yeah.

Perfect.

Circle from Julian.

Absolutely.

And that is what happened there.

And it's for everybody.

It's it, it was a great time.

But remember, remember please not easy.

The school rules are not so, perfectly
fit to this disabled people and

they're what they need, but hey, we can
create some nice ways and we did it.

Yeah.

For example, there is a sport event that
is every year they have to do this in, in

the to jump running and throwing balls.

That is the main sports
there and together.

And later you have your notes you
have your points and yeah, that

means you have this and this note.

But a for the wheelchair
driver, we have no idea.

Then we create a new competition
there, 100 meter with a wheelchair.

Who is the fastest Perfect.

They, Julian wins the race.

He's best at the head.

He had the best practice.

But the other I have also
fund with to do this.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that especially especially the kiddos,
the students, they have no question.

There was a newspaper man reporting, hey,
how it works, and he asked the teacher,

he asked the principal, and he asked.

The other students.

And he asked to the other students in
the class of Julian, Hey, how do you feel

with a disabled person in your classroom?

And the kiddos don't
understand this question.

What do you mean disabled people
who is disabled here in our class?

And Julian just crossed the corner
with his wheelchair and they, ROS

don't understand this question.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,

Henrich Berkhoff: great.

And then later he luckily he comes
up private, organized school with

the Montessori thinking and they say,
yes, everybody is welcome here and.

We have to look, what is your potential?

What is your power?

What is to have a look?

What is that what you like to do?

And that is in this thinking,
you are the best in, in, in, you

are the best in what do you like?

Rupert Isaacson: What's so interesting
about this is you're talking about

advocacy and somewhere in your
boyhood you must have learned some

skills about how to advocate for
yourself and for other people.

Now, you have gone on with this because
you've helped Julian to find a career.

He's now working.

It's wonderful.

He's driving.

It's.

Phenomenal.

Yeah.

And you have two other sons that we
haven't talked about who are a great

success in, in, in, in their lives too.

But in each case with this, you have
learned how to advocate first for

your own child and then for yourself.

Now for my own story, I, I,
I'm, I'm a good advocate too.

So I advocated for Rowan for my son
and then wanted to teach him and people

like him how to advocate for themselves.

But I, of course had a
background in working in human

rights, working in journalism.

And so perhaps I had some training in
this before the diagnosis happened.

So it was somewhat natural
for me to fall into a role of.

An advocate, where does it come from
with you many people in your position?

For example, with the school, when the
school says, oh no, sorry, I don't think

so many people would say, oh, okay.

I guess, I guess not.

Then where did you learn how
to say, Hmm, let me give you

plan B and C and D and E and F.

Where did this come from?

As you know, if you followed any of
my work, I'm an autism dad and we have

a whole career before this podcast in
helping people with neurodivergence,

either who are professionals in the field.

Are you a therapist?

Are you a caregiver?

Are you a parent?

Or are you somebody with neurodivergence?

When my son, Rowan, was
diagnosed with autism in 2004,

I really didn't know what to do.

So I reached out for mentorship, and
I found it through an amazing adult

autistic woman who's very famous, Dr.

Temple Grandin.

And she told me what to do.

And it's been working so
amazingly for the last 20 years.

That not only is my son basically
independent, but we've helped

countless, countless thousands
of others reach the same goal.

Working in schools, working at
home, working in therapy settings.

If you would like to learn this
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It's almost laughably simple.

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Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr.

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Go to this website, newtrailslearning.

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me, people like you, out there

live their best life, to live
free, ride free, see what happens.

Henrich Berkhoff: A lot of comes
from to be a farmer, honestly.

Rupert Isaacson: I was wondering Yeah, go.

Go on.

Henrich Berkhoff: Because if you
are working in nature with nature

with animals you are searching every
day for solution in your work life.

And you are always thinking about, Hey,

is there another way to
do or to get the target?

Yeah.

And that is always happened.

And if you in a family in a like
this that every day is asking, Hey,

there's a rainy day, we want to
harvest the corn, what can we do?

Now?

You have to deliver every day solution.

Bigger, smaller ones, but that is normal.

Yeah.

And also your responsibility
for this decisions every day.

There is no question who is.

My my, my, my, my boss and who
can I give this question away?

No, you have to do this.

And at, at the end of the day you can see,
oh yeah, it works or it works not so good.

Or we try it again tomorrow.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Right.

Henrich Berkhoff: But you have to do this.

Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

Henrich Berkhoff: That is think what
you may be called Edward advocacy.

Advocacy.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Henrich Berkhoff: And in the
relationship to Julian in his way,

this inclusion that was so helpful.

The UN have this disability convention.

They said this sent it out
in the world and Germany put

it in their national rules.

Laws in 2009 and Julian is born in 2002.

And you'll see, hey, we are in the
school and we have this paper from the

un and it is also here in German laws.

We can say at last, please
have a look to this laws.

We, we are in our thinking, we are right.

But to have the right is a completely
other thing to go this way.

That is not easy to have the rights
and no power to make it happen.

And that means, oh, you have to create
solution like a farmer every day.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
it, it's interesting.

I like this analogy of.

You need to harvest the corn,
but it's raining and so you

could lose the whole crop.

Yeah.

If one looks at a school or a boss or

someone with a decision making power
saying, I'm going to make a decision

that is not in your interest or
not in the interest of your child

to look at it like, oh, I see it's
raining and I need to get the corn.

Okay, what would I do on the farm and how
does that translate to this situation?

And I can imagine that that would
happen almost subconsciously, that

you wouldn't necessarily think, okay,
corn school, but it would naturally.

Follow and we started
this podcast in nature.

You came walking outta the
forest, you blew that horn.

You are not just a farmer,
you are also a hunter.

Mm-hmm.

What is hunting other
than following the trail?

Following the tracks and moment
by moment, by moment by moment.

Having to make a decision that
might or might not lead to food.

And that you also need to have a
relationship with all of the dimensions of

that animal, the animal itself, the land,
the habitat, and then the conditions of

the day, the weather, the, the health of
the animal, how is your health as well?

So it's interesting.

Talk to me about hunting and how
hunting and that particular type of

relationship with nature helps with
this sort of advocacy and problem

solving career that you have.

Henrich Berkhoff: Yeah.

What is the connection to take
responsibilities and to be a hunter?

And that means for me,

it comes as a child here always.

We have hunting session at our farm.

We are allowed to do this in our
farm area here, but in the former

days, the humans always hunter and.

They are gathering and hunting and
some scientists think about, hey, this

hunting thing to get meat, that means
to get energy easier enough and easier

is then to gathering nuts and so on.

Mm-hmm.

And that makes that is one explanation
for how to come the human brain

bigger and bigger and more and more
the brain is, needs some much energy.

And with this hunting thing, it was
easier to make, to bring the energy

in the shortest time to the humans.

That is interesting.

And yeah, we.

We are hunter and
gatherer at more than 2.5

million years.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Henrich Berkhoff: This farming thing comes
up maybe 10,000 years here in this region.

8,000 years.

And yeah, that was nice.

And the industry things
is maybe 200 years.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Henrich Berkhoff: And the digital
and the computer thing is maybe,

you know, the start of the iPhone.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

And this is, or the first
personal computer from IBM.

Yeah.

Where we have, yeah.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: I'm wearing the history
here on my shirt, the digital world.

Very recent.

Yeah.

Henrich Berkhoff: Yeah.

And if we put all this time.

On the, on the line at 60 minutes.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Henrich Berkhoff: That means we
have 59 minutes time from this one

hour as we, we are in the world
on a, at the hunter and gatherer.

15, nine minutes, maybe
30 seconds As a farmer.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Henrich Berkhoff: And the
rest you cannot stop it.

It's less than one second.

Yeah.

We are created by the nature, for
the nature and not for all these

other things we cannot handle.

Maybe in 2 million years
we have an interface here,

whatever, but not in this time.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

Henrich Berkhoff: And more and
more people are have problems with

this, with this times, with this
computer and with this big cities.

And with that is also thousand
of information, thousand of

people are bombing your brain.

Mm.

We are not made for this.

We can handle it.

Yes, of course, but it is more and
more people are struggling to do this.

You can manage your, your,
your, your environment.

How in if you walk, can walk in a
forest one day in this direction,

one day in this direction.

Yes.

You have all this knowledge.

You, you know exactly where can
I, I have nice water to drink.

Where can I collect honey?

Where can I hope, luckily I can hunt deer.

That is what we created for not for this
thousand of information every second.

Yeah.

And especially have a look to the kiddos.

This, they, they are in the age of four
years, they get their first mobile phone.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Henrich Berkhoff: That it's not the,
that is, I, I think you can start

with a mobile phone in the age of 14.

That makes sense.

But that is too much information
to have good, healthy.

Developed for your brain,

Rupert Isaacson: right?

You know, what's interesting
about what you say?

The million things coming
in, in information, I would

say that nature does that.

Nature gives you 1 million
things coming in all the time.

Let's say you, not even if you're
hunting or gathering but even if you're

just walking between the temperature
of the air, the direction of the wind,

the different senses, the all of the
things coming through your sensors,

all the decisions you need to make
with each place you put your feet.

Because each time you put your
foot to the ground, if you make a

wrong decision, boom, down you go.

I would argue that nature actually does.

Do this thing of 1 million different
things, but it does it in a way

that our brain is designed for and
absolutely this other digital thing,

it's not designed for, but as you say,
it can make a connection from one to

the other perhaps when the brain has
reached a certain point of development.

This leads me to the next
thing I want to ask you about.

You are now also a politician.

You are with the CDU in Germany,
the Christian Democratic Union.

Yeah.

Obviously you have this background
in advocacy, but why did you decide.

On top of your stuff with the
child protection agency on top of

being a full-time farmer on top of
running the therapeutic programs

with your wife, giddy that you
currently run on the farm as well.

Why did you decide to add this
because this is not a small thing

just to get elected, it's a big thing.

Why did you decide politics
and why did you decide that

particular area of politics?

And for those who, that particular
party for, for those listeners

or viewers who are not familiar
with the German system, the CDU is

actually currently in government.

So.

Yeah.

Good position for everybody knows

Henrich Berkhoff: Mrs.

Angela Merkel.

Yeah.

And she also, and Ham would call
all this great leaders of our party.

Yeah.

And they make decisions
that brings Germany cool.

And powerful.

And the first counselor of Germany after
the Second World War was also a anar.

Was that a Anar?

Yes, of course.

Yeah.

And he bring Germany back to the world
break, and then he create this great thing

with France to make the y And Germany
was not allowed at this time, but Germany

said, Hey, we have this shitty, wrong way.

It cost 60 million
people their their lives.

And now it does it, it
do not happened again.

Never, never.

And please, we are now in this way.

And, okay, how I decided to do this,
it was easy if you have question

and I I'm thought, oh, this is
not okay, and this is not okay.

And please do this in the
other way to the courts, to the

cities, to the administration.

But yes, you have to do and put
your thing in this your, this.

Mr.

Kennedy, he has a good speaking thing.

He don't ask what the government
can give or can do for you.

You have to think about what
can I give to your society, to

your to your tribe, to whatever.

Mm-hmm.

That is the question.

And if you say, Hey, this
is I that is not okay.

Yeah, please.

You, you have to chance
to do it in your way.

And that is one of the reason I
decided to make this politician.

And yeah.

And it was, it, it, it is cool if you
are you know, politician means not you

are in and everything has happened.

Like, thinking in, you have to
handle out the best solution with

your own politicians, friends,
and with other parties also.

And that is what we do every day.

It's.

A little step, but it's okay.

I think to do this, you need time
and, but in, at the end, all the

people wants to have security.

They want to have quiet peace time.

That is all the same.

Yeah.

Some days the, the way is a little bit
different, but in the main parties we have

here, not at the left or at the right.

That is not the best.

But mostly the people want to have
this targets in, in their life.

Yeah.

And they can grow up.

And

Rupert Isaacson: you, you, the
CDU that you are a, a member of,

this is a very, you could say
it's a middle, middle way party.

Yeah.

You are a believer in nature.

You are a believer in the necessity
of nature and movement in schools

in childhood for even for adults.

You, this has really become your life.

Tell me, what are you doing as
a politician to try to get this

idea back into the mainstream?

'cause just before you begin, you
could have gone to the green party.

Even though yes, you're a hunter, you're a
farmer, but you're very much an ecologist

as well, you're an organic farmer.

So someone might say, oh,
you could go to the greens.

Why the CDU with your
environmental outlook?

Please explain,

Henrich Berkhoff: ah, that is,
in the, in my party, there is

a conservative thinking way.

They not make decisions like so fast.

Mm-hmm.

And they're thinking, ah, please
remember the old days and this, and yeah.

The, the agriculture thing is the same.

If there's something happened, it needs
time and more and more other ideas come

up and they, sometimes they're cool.

Okay.

And that makes a different agriculture
thinking and all this is same was

what I am thinking in my party.

Mm-hmm.

If with this ideas that
is not the mainstream.

It's in the interesting, interesting thing
to put this information in the discussion.

And if you come back with a reason, Hey,
have a look what happened in nature.

What happened with a
agriculture example for this.

My father was asked in 1900 seventies
to make all the hedges and ditches plain

to make the best agriculture thing.

It is easier to have big fields, and
it's for the economy, is it easier?

And he said, no, I have no, no interest.

And this idea come from the
government, from the local government.

They, they give money for this.

They have.

And now in 2000, we have a plan to
rewild to make, and they come here

and talk to me and say, Hey, you have
this ditches and you have this hedges.

Thank you for the that you have this one.

I think, Hey, you guys, you come 40 years
earlier to my father and make it plain.

And now you say thank you for me.

And hey, you have to think
about other dimensions.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that is what I bring in.

And it is nice.

It works.

And the, this other thinking and you, you,
you speak about, frame everything you do.

Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: Reframing, yeah.

Reframe everything and completely.

We

Henrich Berkhoff: have no
time to do this, but Please.

Sometimes you have to do
and you have to think.

Yeah.

And also if this Japanese people,
if you had in a discussion with

the Japanese people in their
culture, they are not directly to

you and bump you on at the nose.

They give you in every discussion,
they give you a chance to

escape, to hold your face up.

They give you the chance to
do this, and that is so cool.

And if you have this in,
in, in your thinking.

You can be a politician with success.

Rupert Isaacson: What I know for
example, you were just in Berlin with a

mutual friend of ours David Doyle Yeah.

Henrich Berkhoff: From

Rupert Isaacson: Ireland.

And you were,

so for those listeners, I wish we could
get David Doyle to come on a podcast.

He's so shy, he won't come.

You have to do this, but maybe
we can put him under pressure.

David Doyle, for those who do not know
him is another autism dad in Ireland

who has pioneered equine therapy and
therapies through movement and with

neuroscience to the point that in Ireland
now, the government will back and pay

for these therapies starting last year.

He's an absolute force of nature,
very kind, very unassuming man.

And you, and he just went to Berlin.

To government headquarters in, in, in
Germany to talk about this sort of thing.

What, what are you
trying to achieve there?

What would be your ideal goal?

What in terms of nature, agriculture,
and special needs and equine therapies

in your perfect world in 20 years,
what would the government there in

Germany be doing in these areas?

Henrich Berkhoff: Yeah,
thank you for David.

He, they makes a great job in Ireland.

And that is a European country too.

Yeah.

And we have some thoughts about, hey,
how to put it in in other countries and

to make this idea from nature healing.

It's my word.

Okay.

It means why agriculture,
animals, and nature.

Can do more than just a
system of produce food.

There is so many healing
spaces in this thinking.

Right.

And he, he did it in Ireland, successful.

And we we create our farm here and
we call it now Green Care Farm.

Mm-hmm.

Because in the beginning with
Julian, we start with a horse thing.

GI is, since she was a young lady
in contact with horses and then we

create, make it healing with horses.

We started, we have three little ponies
here and we started, and more and more

people are visiting us and say, Hey.

Looks very cool and can you
do this for this our child?

And then it grows up more and more
and the families called up to us three

weeks later and said, Hey, if we have
bad times, now we are thinking about

the time at your farm in the nature.

And they are helping us.

They pick up the ps, they bring the
feed to the animals and all the, they

are working here and gi and I asking
each other, Hey, what, what happened?

They, they are so happy.

They, they give us money
for, to, to make the work.

No, there is so much more.

They are, they, they feel useful.

They feel in the nice environment.

They feel the human environment
and that gives them some cool

energy and so good thoughts.

And if they are remembering
only remembering the time of

the farm here, they feel better.

And this is how we come on the way.

And yeah, we, we feel it, but
we have no idea what happened

and why it happened, right?

And that's changed If we have
I, I, I, I found clinic and

it called Horse Boy Method.

I think, Hey, what, what they
are doing there and am read,

they go outside in nature, follow
the child, blah, blah, blah.

Say, Hey

look here.

That is similar to what we do.

We have no idea.

We, we do it because we feel it.

That is good feeling.

And that is, they're laughing.

They, they like it to
do and they come back.

And now we have the chance
to visit this clinic in 2070.

And I sent GI there because hey, horse,
horse things is more GIS things, but

they now, I I am, we, we, we create an
active stable for the horses in 2015.

And I you

Rupert Isaacson: where the horses
live outside in a natural way.

Yeah, that is right.

Henrich Berkhoff: And we have
35 horses here on our farm.

And so we, I ask how is the
best environment for the horses?

And the easiest thing is let them outside.

That makes.

Reduce all the problems they have.

I asked the VE veterans here at
the ecu and he said, Hey, if the

outside, we have this, this, and
this problems, we have solved this.

Okay?

And then more and more I am in the horse
world and hey, GI starts with a normal

stuff of riding if everybody here in the
area starts for the competition and so on.

I'm not interested.

Interesting in this competition thing.

Maybe in the evening, they have a nice
parties after competition that, that

was nice, but not this competition.

It's not for me.

But GI starts to make this ground the
work from the ground with the horses and

makes all the horsemen stuff and so on.

And then, then I recognize,
hey, that is cool.

How is the way the horse knows where
they had to go without the rope

Come this from then I start, okay?

We, we, we change our farm to this green
care farm because we have the idea what

is the science behind happiness in nature?

What is the science behind the movement?

And that is starts in this, time in
2017, we have this course here, and Giddy

called me up, Hey, after one hour or one
and a half hours, she called me up and

said, Hey Henry, that is so cool here.

Now I have an idea what is working
in the human, what is the hormone

thing we, and what is the reason
that people are so yeah, so lucky

and that people are so powerful now.

And then she comes back and yeah, we can
make this online course on the n tls.com.

Co.

Sorry.

And on the trainer said, or you can
visit this farm in Austin, Texas.

And I said, gi, you have to go there.

That is there, there come the idea
from, please have a look there.

That is really it says, yeah,
please, you have to go there.

And two days later, I thought,
a 14 days in Austin to have all

this horse boy movement stuff.

And then she had to explain me this later.

It cost another week.

And so we decided to go both to the,
in January, nobody has this idea to

go in January to Austin and Texas,

Rupert Isaacson: one of the nicest months,

Henrich Berkhoff: but.

That was so cool.

And they opened all this signs behind
and how to handle and all this tribe.

And then we are back and we changed
the farm in the green care farm thing.

And this two, two weeks later in
2018, in January, we make a, a

little path in our forest here.

Mm.

And somebody says, Hey,
no, they are very stupid.

They come back from wherever there
was were, wherever there was, and

now they make a trail here in the
Forest Park what has happened.

And yeah, we, we, we
start with to do this and.

The humans, the people, the
families there come here.

They say, they say thank you to us.

That is a good feeling.

Hey, we, we make this service
sometimes for not so easy people

because they have some problems.

They have so many disabled things.

But the nature give us the answer.

They come down, they feel
better and they feel good.

And that comes from the nature.

And we offered the way to the
nature because we know yes,

the nature is the answer.

Rupert Isaacson: If you made it
this far into the podcast, then I'm

guessing you're somebody that, like
me, loves to read books about not

just how people have achieved self
actualization, but particularly

about the relationship with nature.

Spirituality, life, the
universe, and everything.

And I'd like to draw your
attention to my books.

If you would like to read the story
of how we even arrived here, perhaps

you'd like to check out the two New
York Times bestsellers, The Horseboy

and The Long Ride Home, and come on an
adventure with us and see what engendered,

what started Live Free Ride Free.

And before we go back to the
podcast, also check out The Healing

Land, which tells the story of.

My years spent in the Kalahari with the
Sun, Bushmen, hunter gatherer people

there, and all that they taught me, and
mentored me in, and all that I learned.

Come on that adventure with me.

So in 20 years, in your perfect
world, or even sooner in five years

does the government, not just in
Germany, but perhaps in the eu.

Begin to give money for people
to use nature for mental health

in a way that becomes universal and
that we can see countryside being

rewild as well as farmed both but with

government policies on how to
use this nature for the benefit

of society, not just food.

Is that kind of the end goal really?

Henrich Berkhoff: Yeah.

That is one of the reasons we visit
this politicians in Berlin and.

We have the meeting there and we open this

reframe thing.

Mm.

Because there is a, this politician
is a circle of the horse world, the

business, the sports, the Olympic
sports also, and they have all this

breeding things and they have not
discovered what is a big, big advantage

to use the horse for other people.

Yeah.

And that works not only for disabled
people, that works for every people.

The, the, the per, for example, the
AU autism people, they have the best,

feelings to know what is good for them.

And if the autism people, we love it.

They come to our farm and they so
honest to our, to, to, to everybody.

Yeah.

And they say, Hey, that is cool.

That is not cool.

Easy.

And they go to the next but that they have
the feeling what is good for the humans?

What is the They have no ego.

Yeah.

They, they said That is okay.

That's not okay.

And they ended up with the animals
and with the nature mostly.

And that was a ta one of the targets
to show how fits agriculture.

That means all the horse stuff,
health and also education.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

Henrich Berkhoff: Together.

And that is a big, big universe we open.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: It's so
interesting, isn't it?

When you live the sort of life that you
live or I live, it's so obvious that

all of these points connect education,
mental health, physical health.

That was so crazy.

But it's so bizarre that one has to
convince any of your body office.

Yeah,

Henrich Berkhoff: I, they, they,
they, they're listening to us in this

conference room and they asking our
all this question and we say, yeah,

the solution is movement, nature.

Oh, this problem.

Yeah.

Solution is movement.

Nature, animals, perhaps they
bring it you in the nature.

And that is a the universe.

Ah, that was so funny.

Yeah, they, they are politicians.

That's an interesting point.

They talk about the economy from this.

So, this system we have the health
system in Germany and the system

for socialization, all this, you
get money for, to have your own

flat, you have to, all this costs
are growing more and more and more.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Henrich Berkhoff: Yeah.

If you have this line on the
chart, it's the same line.

More and more becomes people on the world.

More and more becomes digitalization.

Yeah.

There's the same rates.

They go higher.

And more and more cost is
for the health industries.

They give your this Americans and, and,
and, but we, we, Germany is a, a rich

country, but we come at the end to make
this happen, we have to solve money.

And then they ask, Hey, we have to
discuss discuss in this future in Berlin.

They have to discuss all the systems,
bring it down on the other level that is

next they, we can we have money for this.

Rupert Isaacson: Right?

And this is where David
Doyle has been so amazing.

So he proved, just for listeners
who don't know of this, he proved

to the Irish government who have a
ministry of disability that's, it's

quite enlightened that with autistic
adult males who had a history.

Habit of violence and many of whom
would need maybe four people with

them, which is costing the government
more than 1 million euros, closer to

2 million euros per year per person.

He showed that with movement method,
he could bring that down to one person,

which was saving the government more
than a million euros per person per year.

And he gathered the data on this
over five years and made his case.

And what happened in 2024 with the Irish
government then saying, okay, we will

support this movement in nature thing.

Absolutely.

It's great to see that you guys are
now taking it into into Germany because

of course if something happens there,
then it goes to the rest of the eu.

It's amazing work.

And you were talking
about the other, I think.

As we sort of move towards the two hour
mark, the last thing I would like to

ask you about is the work that you're
doing to bring this into education.

So you have started for some years now
doing what you call Bienhoff Pedagogic.

We are meaning farm, farm school
effectively farm teaching.

So where the local schools to your,
in your town bring their kids out.

Not just to experience the farm, but
actually to have academics on the farm.

This is fantastic and I know that
you are now training other people in

Germany how to do this and going out
to other places and even now making an

initiative across the border with the
Netherlands to start doing the same thing.

Can you just tell us a
little bit about that work?

Henrich Berkhoff: Yeah, the thank you.

To bring it in school.

We have in Germany a nice, quite
section that called dra mm-hmm.

To learn outside.

And they have the idea, and
that is based in Munich.

They have the university
technical University Munich.

They, they are just started a
big data based program there.

And we are in four years, we, we visit
this first meetings and they say, Hey, we,

we know if you if you have movement and
learning together, you get better results.

That is not a secret also, that is now.

Everywhere.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

All the neuroscientists agree on this.

Yeah, yeah.

Henrich Berkhoff: But the question is,
hey, why the schools hold to the old

Rupert Isaacson: system?

Mm.

Yeah.

It's a good question, isn't it?

Henrich Berkhoff: Yeah,
it's a good question.

I have no answer, but I have
some 1, 2, 3 thoughts about this.

And then one question, if you are
reframing this, where come school from?

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

The first schools, the first reading
and writing things was in the church.

In the religion, religion thing.

They, they not allowed everybody to
make this reading and writing stuff.

It is only in the church
to do and also later.

The military comes on this because
they have to organize the army and the

soldiers, and especially the officers
how to make this war or what, whatever

that is, where the school system is
in, in later in the industry relations

time begins 1,870, maybe the first
big fabrics come to make all the big

Rupert Isaacson: factories.

Yeah,

Henrich Berkhoff: yeah, yeah.

They come up and they need this reading
and writing stuff for normal workers.

Oh yeah.

That is useful to make more cars, make
trains, and whatever we need in this time.

Yeah.

And then they created codes, not.

From the thinking and the iCal
thing they created, Hey, there's we

have the soldiers in, in quarters
to turn and we make it the same.

And all kiddos burn in the
age of seven have to go there.

That is, they not asking how to learn
is the best way and it, they have

to organize and, but industrialized.

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

Yeah.

Henrich Berkhoff: Absolutely.

Some school buildings today, if you saw
all the classrooms behind and the long

floor in the middle and underside the
next, that comes from this thinking.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Henrich Berkhoff: And the
teachers have to teach this.

And the, remember if you have child.

Until they go to school, they ask you
many, many questions to the parents

every day, every second, every hour.

Mm.

Sometimes it is not easy
to handle for parents.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

Henrich Berkhoff: The
kiddos have question.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Henrich Berkhoff: How is that and
how is that and blah blah and this.

And with the beginning
of the school time then.

Yeah.

It's so true.

They were asked by the teacher,
Hey, is that the best way to learn?

No.

Please have this picture in your head.

And yeah.

That is how school
systems today are working.

They have no idea to trust the kiddos.

The kiddos are designed
for learning normally.

But the teachers mostly have no trust to
do, to give them the free well, right.

Because

Rupert Isaacson: freedom, free
freedom of learning or, or Yeah.

Yeah.

Self-directed learning.

Henrich Berkhoff: And
the teachers have to look

Rupert Isaacson: means you can't control,
and then if you can't control, you can't

put them in the factory and you can't
put them in the army to go and die.

Henrich Berkhoff: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Because maybe
they will have another idea.

Henrich Berkhoff: All these
thinkings are coming here.

Yeah.

And yeah.

And this is we have to create
another learning environment mm-hmm.

Because we have so many things
to solve in this future.

Right.

Rupert Isaacson: And
economics has changed.

We're not doing factories anymore.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Henrich Berkhoff: And that is where we
now, in this time, we have changed more

and more in this direction, but, mm-hmm.

Remember for the teacher they,
that that is not the, the discuss

the decision of every teacher.

Yeah.

The, the system gives
the teacher how to work.

Mm-hmm.

But they, this time is for the, the,
the, the students sitting in the

school and they have to find their
own way and the teacher have to

become more and more to go with them.

Not forward, but they have
to give the tools for this

students to find their best way.

Yeah.

That is what I am want, I want
to create things like this.

And if you go in the nature, if you have
the move movement, you, you feel good.

Can create good.

So solution for the future.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

And you are, you are, you are
bringing nature into the classroom.

Not just saying, because it's so
easy for a school to say, sorry,

we can't take the kids into the
forest because there's no time.

That's the first thing they'll always say.

Yeah.

And of course you are saying,
well, that's not a problem.

We can recreate this nature
right here in the classroom.

Henrich Berkhoff: Yeah.

We have nature also in the cities.

Yeah.

Go, go to the green parks.

Okay, go to the cemeteries.

Absolutely.

They're green.

Rupert Isaacson: And canals ask the
people there, the land along the railways.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Henrich Berkhoff: You, you can find.

But you have to trust in the kiddos.

They want to be a problem solver.

Mm.

But for this, you have
to explore everything.

If you have a mistake,
yes, it is good to know.

This is not the best way.

Please choose this way.

And this is what we have to learn.

If you make a mistake, especially
in Germany, you are out, you

have a mark in a red color.

It my, my my school papers.

There is more in red on the side
as I wrote in my blue color.

That is, and that mean I never go at home
and read this red marks on the right side.

Never.

I closed it

Rupert Isaacson: straight on the fire.

Henrich Berkhoff: And that
is, Hey, that is stupid.

Rupert Isaacson: You know
what's so interesting?

I just did my German exam Ah, yeah.

Germany for my B one German
level, and it was a six hour exam.

And I haven't done anything
like this since I was,

I don't know, for 500 years
or something like that.

And I'm sitting in this room.

That's completely not the way I would
teach, not the way I would learn

and say, okay, I must do this now.

And just to make it that little
bit more difficult, you couldn't

answer your proofing your exam, your
exam questions on the exam paper,

which in England you can do ah,

mm-hmm.

You had to have a separate, what
they called un book and an answer

key sheet where you had to make
sure that your answers, you filled

it in on this separate sheet.

Oh, and.

You had to answer with a
little X inside a circle.

Mm-hmm.

Not, not bigger than the circle.

Mm-hmm.

Not next to the circle.

Mm-hmm.

Not a

tick this special way.

Or if it was like a little lozenge shape,
you had to fill it in like that with your

pencil, but not to put a circle around it.

Nothing like that.

Oh.

And if you're like me, I have a little
bit of numerical dyslexia, so sometimes

I will put, let numbers, oh shit.

The wrong way round.

So 17 becomes S one or
something like this.

Yeah.

So

I am immediately paranoid
as I go into this exam.

Not so much will I get
the questions right.

Okay.

That is a worry too.

But will I answer them in this
industrialized way that causes

an extra level of stress?

Mm.

That prevents learning.

And it's so interesting knowing the
neuroscience that we know about cortisol,

the stress hormone blocking learning.

I looked at this and said,
this is designed for cortisol.

Mm.

So this is designed to make you fail.

That is not teaching, that is elitism.

That is different.

And so I came up, but congratulations.

A special, a special
way of coping with this.

But yeah, it, I had stress from this,
and this is me having gone through

that system and rejected it, and then
knowing what I know now, but yeah,

for young kids, it's not the way.

Yeah.

Henrich Berkhoff: But congratulations.

You did it.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: I, I passed.

Yeah.

Thank God.

Thank God.

Henrich Berkhoff: Otherwise you
can sit in some of our schools

here and you can learn it.

Yeah.

And this schools ask to visit the farm.

Yeah.

And that is one of our business today.

We have schools, they come here
and also we have the healthy

and horse thing together.

They come there's a next pillow.

No, what is it, Zoe?

Pillar.

Pillar

Rupert Isaacson: the next, yeah.

Henrich Berkhoff: A part of our
business here is children and kiddos

from the hosp psychology hospital.

Yeah.

From the

Rupert Isaacson: psychiatric hospitals.

And also you've, you've been
taking kids from the local refugee.

Population as well.

Henrich Berkhoff: Yeah.

And then they come here more and more
the, the doctors from the ology hospital

say, Hey, it is so easier with our
therapeutic, therapeutic thinking.

And after the kiddos stay on
your farm, and the next two days

it is easier to do our work.

And sometimes they're wondering,
Hey, this boy crash every door

here in our hospital room.

And he's so in freedom in
in the time at your farm.

Yeah.

Where come this from and say, Hey, I,
I, I, I'm I giving the opportunity.

To get in contact with
nature and visit animals.

And believe me, the, the kiddos, they have
an idea what is right and what is wrong.

They have an idea what is nice.

And if they are in the other
world and they, they destroy

themselves or other things that is
crying, that is shouting, help me.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Henrich Berkhoff: That is they
cannot describe it in the other way.

Absolutely.

They crash the door up or box to the
staff there and whatever happened,

but he, nothing really giddy said
to me, please do not say nothing.

Sometimes it happens.

Yeah, maybe.

But 99, 9% they have an idea of
what is good and what is not so good

and give them the responsibilities.

They do their right way.

But yeah, of course you have to look
after, you have to design how to go in

the nature and how to handle the, the,
the animals, they have to know this.

Mm-hmm.

They have children, they have no idea
that is a cow or this is a horse.

They have no idea.

And also nice story, there was the mother,
we have a chicken with little chicken.

They come two days old.

Little, little tiny chicken.

And the mother comes with this, two
kiddos from this clinic and ask, Hey,

how do you feed the little chicken with.

Sorry.

This is how far away from nature we are.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And if the, the problems reducing
is bring the people back in nature.

And if you use a horse
is a powerful thing.

If you have dogs, if you have other
animals, if you have, and ask the local

farmers, they are a little bit mind open.

Hey, can I visit your place and
give them the money for this to do?

And they are thinking, Hey, we,
we cannot, we can do more than

produce the the, the, the meat.

And

Rupert Isaacson: this is so true.

It's interesting because we're
now looking at the end of.

The era of big subsidies
probably for farmers.

And I know many farmers are asking
themselves, okay, how do we, how do

we stay alive in the next generation?

And if people like you at the
political level are able to lobby

government to say, okay, maybe we
don't need to pay the subsidy here.

Maybe the subsidy now
goes to mental health.

Because if we pay the farmers, the
foresters, the custodians of the land,

if we can train them and pay them to
help look after the mental health of

the people in the cities, our costs
will go down as David Doyle proved.

And it's people like you and
people like David who do it.

On their place, they do it on their
farm, you do it on a farm and you go

out to the political level and advocate.

And I would suggest that your early
years as a parent with Julian prepared

you for this because just as the
advocacy work that I do, it was all

the early years with Rowan that prepare
me now for some of the political

outreach and so on that I have to do.

I imagine at the end of your life when
you are looking back, you'll look to

those early years with Julian and say,
ah, yes, that was the training ground.

That was where I learned my skills.

Yeah, how to do it at home,
how to do it in my community,

and then how to take it wider.

Yeah.

I think we ly can thank our
special needs children for this.

Henrich Berkhoff: Yeah.

I'm also so grateful to have
the opportunity to go this way.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Henrich Berkhoff: It's
not the easiest way, but,

Rupert Isaacson: but it's
the most meaningful way.

Henrich Berkhoff: Yeah.

It's a meaningful, powerful way.

And that is the reason we, we, we know
each other, we, we are talking about

this and not to search the mental thing
in India, you, you, you stay India.

Yeah.

You can, maybe you can find it.

But it's also not easy.

Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, if we're gonna
take something like this to India, we

better prove it here where we live first.

Yeah.

Okay.

Henrich Berkhoff: Okay.

But if we, if we stand together
and have a look to the disabled

people to this not normal humans.

Yeah, yeah.

It, there is more than someone expected.

Yeah.

And there is, they are the

Rupert Isaacson: shamans.

They are the healers.

They are the people who make the magic.

Henrich Berkhoff: They give us
the answers to our questions.

Rupert Isaacson: They do.

Henrich Berkhoff: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Henrich, thank you.

Henrich Berkhoff: Yeah.

Thank you Ru.

So it was a nice talk here
about everything and nothing.

And I think, hopefully I
answer all the question.

You, you, you did very, very well.

Rupert Isaacson: I look
forward to following where this

next bit of work in Berlin.

Henrich Berkhoff: Ah, yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: And in
the Netherlands as well.

I'm, I'm, oh yeah.

I'm really interested
to see how this goes.

So maybe in a few months we have you
back and you can give us a report.

Henrich Berkhoff: Yes, I, I will do.

Thank you.

It, it is my pleasure.

Rupert Isaacson: Perhaps with
Julian, maybe he would like

to come on the podcast too.

Henrich Berkhoff: That is a cool idea.

Y that is, that makes sense.

Rupert Isaacson: Maybe.

And his brothers actually.

Henrich Berkhoff: Yeah.

Give, ask them.

Is it true what Gia and
Henry are talking about?

Rupert Isaacson: That's right.

Henrich Berkhoff: Or is it, is it they
say, oh, that my, my parents, yeah.

Please do this.

Okay.

Yeah, that's good idea.

Let's,

Rupert Isaacson: let's,
let's reconvene with that.

Henrich Berkhoff: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: All right.

Well, my friend, thank you again so much.

Henrich Berkhoff: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: And I just look
forward to the next, not just the next

conversation, but hearing the results.

I want to know.

Henrich Berkhoff: Okay.

That is important too.

Yes.

No pressure, but if you feel,
eh, at your don't, if you feel it

is good, please follow this one.

Don't follow this.

What your brain, pre, pre put the, the

pre for cortex.

Prefrontal cortex.

Please don't follow your feelings

Rupert Isaacson: for that
big principal cortex.

No.

So it gets things wrong.

Henrich Berkhoff: Yeah,
that is, that is right.

Rupert Isaacson: The
stomach and the heart too.

Henrich Berkhoff: Cool.

Rupert Isaacson: Alright, well,
until next time my friend.

Bye-bye.

Bye-bye.

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