Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.

Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New
York Times bestselling author of

The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.

Before I jump in with today's guest, I
want to say a huge thank you to you, our

audience, for helping to make this happen.

I have a request.

If you like what we do here,
please give it a thumbs up,

like, subscribe, tell a friend.

It really, really helps
us to make the pro.

To find out about our certification
courses, online video libraries,

books, and other courses,
please go to rupertisakson.

com.

So now let's jump in.

Welcome back to Live Free, ride Free.

I have had a question in my mind
for about three decades now which is

having lived in the USA for 25 years
or so before I moved back to Europe.

I was often intrigued in watching the rise
of the conservative Christian thing and

how that became increasingly politicized.

And okay, I could understand that, but
one of the things which I had trouble

understanding was that if one valued
creation, why did one not look after it?

And where were the environmentalists?

Within Christianity at least, at least
within American Christianity, because

it just didn't seem to be there.

And it seemed that this idea of man's
dominion over the beasts or nature or

whatever seemed to be taken as a carte
blanche to bleep it all up, to mess

it all up, to destroy it effectively.

And that even that destroying it
almost seemed to be an imperative

within that theological outlook.

Why couldn't that mean
stewardship of God's creation?

Why couldn't that mean environmentalism?

Why was that philosophically or
theologically opposed to the Christian

conservative outlook and viewpoint?

And I could never quite understand this.

So I.

Been going round saying, where are
the Christian environmentalists?

Where are they?

Where are they?

Where are they?

Where are they?

I guess you have to ask a question
enough times because up pops Ben.

So ladies and gentlemen sitting before
you today is somebody who I think

is part of an, of a growing movement
within Christianity in America, which

is actually exactly this, the, the, the
celebration of and nurture of nature

rather nature versus nurture, the nurture
of nature within the Christian context.

Fascinating.

So Ben, welcome on the show.

Please tell us, and
thank you for coming on.

Please tell us who you are,
what you do, and why you do it.

Ben Connor: Yeah.

Thanks for having me.

Yeah.

I'm excited to talk about
this and talk with you.

So I am a professor of practical
theology, which might lead you to

ask, what is Impractical Theology?

You know, which would be, in
my mind, would be a good bit.

No old theology.

Impractical.

A good bit of it is, but theology that
doesn't issue in love and care for

others to me is impractical theology.

Okay.

Practical theology starts with the
practices of Christians, the hospitality,

forgiveness, these sorts of things,
and tries to help individuals and

congregations do it more faithfully.

That's what practical theology is.

So we partner with the social sciences
and with the hard science is to try

to understand our world, to try and
understand humans how they respond.

So instead of just having philosophy
as a theological conversation

partner, we have disability studies.

And for me, I have, I.

Sort of books on equines and these
sorts of things, or, so it's a,

it's a very broad conversation
that's focused on practice.

So that's my job.

I also started a Center for Disability and
Ministry at Western Theological Seminary.

And where and

Rupert Isaacson: where's Western
Theological Seminary based?

Ben Connor: You would imagine
it would be in the West.

But I think it, it might have been
at the time it was built before

all the expansion happened with the
us but we're in Holland, Michigan.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Ben Connor: So Right, right
next to Lake, lake, Michigan.

And so the Center is the only theological
school in the United States that offers

accredited programs graduate certificate,
a master's of Arts, and a doctor of

ministry in disability and ministry.

Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.

Ben Connor: And the focus is, is not
so much on what we often hear when we

think about churches and ministry, which
is how are we gonna minister to people

with disabilities, often casting people
with disabilities as needy, as not

having particular theological insights
or, or see pro problematizing them.

Seeing them more in terms of
a medical model of disability.

Like, how can we overcome
these problems so they can be

included in what we're doing?

That's not what I'm doing at all.

What I'm trying to do is gather
insights from different body minds

that are engaging in theology and
engaging the Bible, because if you

have to live in a world as an expert
life hacker and navigate a world

that's not designed for you, mm-hmm.

You gain many, many insights.

And so the purpose of the center is to.

Amplify those insights to invite people
with disabilities into this conversation,

to center their voices, to center their
experiences in biblical interpretation,

in theological investigation, and in
the concrete practices of ministry.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

That's a lot of words and I'm gonna
ask you to explain some of them.

But the first big question
is, are you a priest?

Ben Connor: Not a priest?

I'm ordained in in a more
evangelical tradition.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So

Ben Connor: my primary
role is as professor.

Rupert Isaacson: But you are ordained,

Ben Connor: but I

Rupert Isaacson: am ordained.

Okay.

So here's where I'd like to begin.

And then I want to branch out into
the work you're actually doing.

Why in the USA is the idea
of being an environmentalist.

Counter or opposed to being
Christian in the general context.

Ben Connor: Right.

So I do think it's based in poor
interpretations of our scripture.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Ben Connor: And in a close relationship
between a western enlightenment,

individualistic worldview, and the way
that Christianity in America came to be.

Rupert Isaacson: So, okay.

Let's talk about how Christianity
in America came to be.

Ben Connor: Yeah.

So, it's, it's a frontier.

The, the frontier movement, the
individualism, the, the problem solving.

All of that got mapped onto expressions
of Christianity United States.

And while on the one hand you had a
separation between church and state

that was supposed to protect each from
each other, allow, allow religion to

flourish and, and, and this sort of thing.

So you can't, like if you wanted
to disestablish religion in the

United States, where do you look?

Since it's not legally established,
you can't disestablish it.

Instead, the way that it's been
established is it's been more culturally

established through values and blue laws.

And if you're gonna be a president,
then you better say you're a Christian.

These sorts of things.

So politics, cultural values, all these
sorts of things mixed to create a kind

of Christianity that sees that when
it reads dominion in the Bible, thinks

of dominion as dominance or control.

And, and it's, it's part of the larger
enlightenment project that begins

with, I think therefore I am of mastery
of control, of use, of othering.

And it, it starts with dominating land,
dominating the people who are on the land.

And the Christians in the United
States were you know, there were

people on both sides, but the power
was more complicit with that movement.

And so then you have a mis oriented
notion of dominion that isn't all

reflective of their own scriptures
that talk about there's a verse here

and there, but you can do anything
with a verse here or there, I mean.

Mm-hmm.

You know, I mean, I, I could make
all kind of ridiculous claims that

would then be called biblical.

'cause I can attach a verse to it.

But the large arc of it is that
it's supposed to be oriented by

a different kind of relationship
with creation and stewardship

is a better idea than dominance.

Even the dominion that's supposed to
be expressed is supposed to be one that

leads to the flourishing of everything.

And if everything's not flourishing,
then nothing's flourishing.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

I mean, presumably if one's, you
know, I also get that, I get that

America started, at least Protestant
America started with pilgrims.

Pilgrim fathers, but pilgrim fathers
were actually religious extremists

who were kicked out of England at,
they were actually in the clink jail

in London before they were put on the
boat, the Mayflower, to be sent because

they were, they were troublesome.

And we had just had a civil war in the
UK where they've cut the king's head off.

No, sorry.

We, we were about to,
we hadn't yet had it.

And so the, the, these puritan extremists
who were reflecting, you know, some of the

extremism that led to these cataclysmic
wars of religion that we had in Europe

in the 17th century were like packed
on boats and said, all right, lads, off

you go over there and good luck to you.

And of course, they made it, and people
have heard of like the Salem Witch trials

and people have heard of that sort of
thing, but they, you know, landed in New

England and walked around being unpleasant
and puritan to everybody, including

themselves and sort of established.

That tradition a little
bit, and we get that.

But given that that's 400 years
ago, and given that okay, then

you had other things going on.

You had slavery, you had genocides
of the Native Americans and

so on and manifest destiny.

This idea in the 19th century of
progress, commercial progress with

Christianity getting mixed up.

I do understand all that, but yet it
didn't, it didn't seem to that there

were other parts of the world that were
colonized where that kind of wholesale

assault on the land and on nature
didn't become the dominant culture.

I'm thinking about my own family,
for example, in, in South Africa

who were, I mean, were not
dissimilar roots in many ways.

They were, you know, very puritan.

Christians on the Dutch side who formed
the Dutch Reformed Church, which is

one of only two churches in the world
that were formed specifically to

justify, you know, bad institutionalized
racism, one of which being the

Dutch Reform Church in South Africa.

The other one being you know, the
Southern Baptist Church in in, in the USA.

But yet those ancestors of mine in South
Africa did take a stewardship line and

I guess they couldn't take a genocidal.

There was no slavery, there was
colonizing, there was no, they

couldn't take a genocidal line,
I think because there, there were

always more of the local people than
there were of the white settlers.

So you, you couldn't have
done it if you tried.

There just were not the millions
and millions and millions of people

coming into Africa that there
were coming across the Atlantic.

But then we look north at Canada, say.

And we don't see
Christianity being quite, so,

what's the word?

Manipulated into something as it's not
that they didn't assault nature, but not

perhaps to the same degree they did do
genocides, but they didn't have slavery.

Then you look at Mexico and you go,
well, they're pretty, you know, that's

pretty messed up down there, but you
see it through a Catholic lens, and

again, not, not maybe this same sort of
idea that to be Christian means paving

the entire continent from C to C with
a McDonald's every 200 meters, and if

you do that, you're doing God's work.

And that's sort of where it's ended up
with a lot of Christians in America.

That still puzzles me, even though
I understand that historical

process that you've outlined.

Ben Connor: Right.

Well, there are a couple other
theological biblical factors that

shape this understanding as well.

So one is this expansionism the desire
to manipulate, control and create

moved by a vision that through progress
eventually the world's gonna be so

great through our technology progress,
ingenuity and faith that Jesus is

just gonna come down and join us.

Right?

That's one sort of in time sort of
view, an eschatological view, but then

other sorts of things happen as well.

So, so the first one is this
dominion, a mis oriented dominion,

which we've just talked about.

Another theological sort of also
enlightenment mindset that impacts the way

Christianity's expressed in some pockets
in the US is this drive to differentiate

ourselves from other creatures.

Not just differentiate ourselves,
but say that we're superior somehow.

So we're taking this whole chain of
being thing, mapping it into Christian

theology and then saying that and
it makes sense 'cause the Bible is a

book about humans perception of God.

So it's a very
anthropocentric book, right?

But then, and so you go to these
early Genesis accounts and it seems

like the whole world's there for you.

And then you gotta say,
well, how am I different?

Well, I'm created in the image of God.

What does it mean that I'm created in
the image of God and animals aren't?

So we try to figure out what is this
thing that makes us in the image of

God and differential ourselves from
the rest of creation to say that we're

superior and we have the right to
use them, use creation, animals, and

land to invest in this project that
we think that we're called to do.

And so that's a, so
there's another mindset.

This drive to differentiate ourselves
means that you can't look at a.

You know, now, now we're getting,
we're getting things from science

now that are challenging how, how we
choose to differentiate ourselves.

We say, oh, well we have rational
minds and we can create tools.

And then you find out that
a crow can create a tool.

Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: And

Ben Connor: then we have
this kind of empathy.

And then you learn more about
pigs, you know, and we have

these parenting instincts.

And you learn about pods of dolphins.

And we're like, okay.

Every time we try to
differentiate ourselves, right.

We have a posable thumbs

Rupert Isaacson: and then
you look at a raccoon.

Yeah.

Ben Connor: Right?

And so, yeah.

So then we start to say, well, you
know how, I think a better, a better

idea is, is to think how animals in,
in relationship with animals, how

it's not a kingdom where we're the
kings in charge of everything, but

it's a kinship relationship where
we're related to everything and,

and perhaps the thing that makes us
different is more about a responsibility

we have than a capacity we have.

'cause we start to think
about the capacities.

Not only do we differentiate ourselves
from animals, we differentiate

ourselves from other humans, and then
we value these humans less as well.

So this was the thesis of a book
called Beasts of Burden by Sonara

Taylor, who growing up had.

Followed these chicken trucks, these
awful farmed chickens with feathers flying

behind her was trying to make sense of
how, how is this these farmed, the, the

way the animals, these industrial farming,
the implications for the environment, the

implications for the chickens themselves,
the implications for the workers.

And she saw that her own disability,
you know, she can be cast as

less than, because we do the same
thing with the animals and we

do the same thing with the land.

So this drive to differentiate ourselves
from creatures, what we've really done

is disconnect ourselves from nature.

And the biophilia hypothesis suggests
that we were formed in who we are

as humans alongside of nature.

What's the

Rupert Isaacson: biophilia hypothesis?

What is that?

This

Ben Connor: is by Ed
Edward Wilson wrote that I.

That we have an innate connection
or love for living things or

for nature, how can we not,

Rupert Isaacson: I mean, we're,
we're a part of it, right?

Ben Connor: And that's what he says.

Like this, this whole network
of conversation going between

trees and mushrooms also has
connections with our bodies.

Mm-hmm.

We've just lost touch with it and
we've tried to separate ourselves

from it, control it, dominate it.

And in the, in, in the process, we've
disconnected ourselves from our own lives.

So, so this drive to differentiate didn't
just differentiate us from animals, it

differentiated us from ourselves, from
each other, from the land, from creation,

and didn't actually answer the question
of what makes us different from animals.

So maybe we should talk more
about what makes us the same.

So that's a second theological
move that, that's, that's feeding

this in the United States.

And there's one more.

Okay.

You wanna hear

Rupert Isaacson: that?

Ask a question.

Well, just, just quickly.

Yeah.

Is there, is there a movement
within Christianity about.

Why are we the same as animals?

Oh, yeah,

Ben Connor: there is.

There is.

There's, there's there's
a, you've heard of it.

Wonderful book.

There's a book by David Clef,
C-L-O-U-G-H, David Clef, who's

now at Aberdeen, like Clough,

Rupert Isaacson:
C-L-O-U-U-G-H-U-G-H, yeah.

Ben Connor: Clef,

Rupert Isaacson: right.

Ben Connor: And he wrote a book
called Creaturely Theology, which

starts with any theology you do.

It needs to start with your commonality
with the rest of the world as a creature.

Rupert Isaacson: This almost
sounds like Celtic Christianity,

druidic Christianity, or so

Ben Connor: well there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You could say that that kind of
Christianity is very different

from Roman Christianity because
of the conversation partners.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

Ben Connor: And, and so that's another
problem with, with Christianity,

is people want to think that their
expression is a final expression and

then sort of use that colonizing mindset,

Rupert Isaacson: right?

Ben Connor: And so evangelism becomes,
you become like me, whereas it should

be an expansion of our understanding
of that, which we all share.

So every cultural boundary you cra cross
brings new riches and insights into this

Christianity that we claim to share.

So would

Rupert Isaacson: you ca, would you
classify yourself as an evangelist?

Ben Connor: If I get to define what it is.

Okay.

Okay.

Because my experience with evangelists
is, is is it's techniques that

were used to manipulate people
into saying certain magic words.

That means they're in instead of out.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

Ben Connor: I don't think that
has anything to do with what the

historical figure of Jesus was
doing or the early church was doing.

That was more a proclamation about what it
means to live in this world in a different

kind of a way that's, that's challenging
power, that's caring for the poor,

that is, is caring for the sick that is
involved in harmony, flourishing in life.

So then my evangelism in that sense
is a doing, a being and a saying.

It's, it's the way that I serve the world.

When, when did I see you in and when did
I visit you in prison and when did I give

you clothes and when did I give you food?

Was the question that was asked
in this sheep and the goat's

parable of, of Jesus, right?

He said, whenever you did it to the
least of these, you did it unto me.

And so this kind of service
is one way that I evangelize.

So there's a, there's a
doing, there's a being.

What kind of communities am I creating
and how I, how do they include

the gifts of other people that are
marginalized in other settings?

That's a kind of community.

So there's a, a being of evangelism
and then there's a saying.

Sometimes you give explanation
verbally to, to what's going on,

but that's usually the last resort
for me, for my, but you and I both

Rupert Isaacson: know that that's not,
that's it sounds wonderful, but you,

you and I both know that's not how
evangelism is usually presents itself.

Right?

It it

Ben Connor: exactly.

And, and fortunately I'm teaching
course you're gonna go to

Rupert Isaacson: hell unless you abide by
these rules and this big blowup there with

a beer's gonna give you a spank bottom
and send you to the place where the.

Chaps of the pointy heads will
stick you with pointy things.

Ben Connor: So let's tie that
understanding of evangelism

to the third movement.

Okay.

So we have this dominion issue
where we've gotten dominion wrong.

We have the drive to div differentiate
ourselves from animals and creation

where we actually separate ourselves
from ourselves and from our world.

You just said we've gotten

Rupert Isaacson: dominion wrong.

That really excites me and I
want to return to that later.

Okay?

Ben Connor: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Sorry, I didn't mean to.

Ben Connor: So there's dominion
drive to differentiate.

The last one fits right into
that kind of evangelism.

What happens in that kind of evangelism?

We save your soul from a
world that's gonna burn.

I collect bumper stickers just for
fun about that kind of evangelism.

And it's like when the last
trumpet sounds, I'm outta here.

And it's like flames coming up.

And it's like, if you think you're
right, you know you better be right.

Or smoking or non-smoking, like
eternity smoking or non-smoking.

People think they're so clever
with these bumper stickers.

But all they're doing
really is offending people.

I can't imagine anyone who's ever had
their mind changed by a bumper sticker.

So what is that viewpoint?

Well, it's this, that, that creation and
animals are just a dramatic backdrop.

Even our bodies, our dramatic
backdrop to a transaction that

goes on between our soul and God.

And it's a really escapist
kind of understanding.

So now you have another
theological de-motivation to

be invested in this world.

'cause this world's temporary,
this world's gonna be destroyed.

And so let's save souls.

So they have soul winners,
bibles, and people are seeing

how many souls they can save.

Well what in the world's a soul, aside
from like, dig down into me, where is it?

You know, like it is it so spirit.

My my point is that if you wanna
find the most spiritual thing,

really get to know another person.

'cause God is, is in there.

If, if, yeah.

So theologically speaking, if God
wants to demonstrate love, then God

takes on human flesh and has to live in
under the contingency that we live in.

And what does he do?

He crosses boundaries.

He goes to, to where lepers are.

He, he invites the tax
collector nobody likes.

He, he hangs around with women and gives
them credibility to their testimony.

He, you know, all these sorts of things.

So you have

Rupert Isaacson: all good ways to
get yourself crucified, basically.

Yeah,

Ben Connor: exactly.

Especially when your followers
start saying your Lord, in a world

where the Roman imperial coins make
that very claim about their rulers.

Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

What's what's interesting with that?

Okay, so that, there's just
a bunch of things there.

One is that one, one of the as you know,
people who interpret, old Testament stuff

and Book of Revelation and the rapture
and all of that, which is very much the

sort of American punishment based, you
know, idea of Christianity and talking

about sort of Christ and antichrist.

And I've often thought that in the book
of Revelation where it says the antichrist

is gonna come along, I say, was that one
person or was that the sort of collective?

And it seems that there's an awful
lot of talk by people who espouse

themselves to be Christians, talking
about highly unchristian things like

my right to have automatic weapons or
my right to be just a dick to people

or to be hostile in whatever way.

That's antichrist, that's
anti ethical to Christ.

That's antichrist.

That's antichrist.

And.

So I've often thought, oh, I see the
antichrist is this espousing of antichrist

beliefs under the banner of Christ.

Okay, that makes sense.

And now of course it's, this is not the
first generation in which that's happened,

and that's been going on, you know,
ever since Christianity became a, you

know, a look at the Spanish Inquisition.

But nonetheless, we sort of ought to
be past that now and perhaps are, you

know, so it's exciting to me when you say

that within the evangelical, which I, I,
I have experienced as punishment based,

basically join our club or you'll get a
hell, and saving souls or getting souls.

The only other person I ever
know who seems to go out to

get souls seems to be Satan.

You know, they, they was talking
about the devil went down to Georgia.

He was looking for soulless steel.

He was in a bag.

He was way behind.

He was willing to make a deal.

He seemed quite motivated
to get souls right.

Presumably God can look after souls.

And, and here's full disclosure.

I'm a full on card carrying
for, for listeners too.

I'm a full on card
carrying believer in God.

I believe in God.

I so believe in God.

I cannot tell you who
God is or what God is.

I wouldn't presume to be able to do
that, but somewhere within me, there's

never been any, never been any question.

But God is not somebody who creates.

People in order to cast them into a
fiery pit because that would be God

as a sort of petulant 12-year-old.

Well if you

Ben Connor: do that, look how much
control that gives you if you do it.

Mm.

I mean that all fits into the same thing
of mastery, domination, and control.

So they've taken a, a worldview and
created something, you know, they've

taken this category of Christian and
filled it with something that allows

them to have power and domination
and control to predict Absolutely.

Explain.

Absolutely.

And it

Rupert Isaacson: just becomes Pharisees
and a priesthood and, and all of that.

I, I, I get it.

You know, and so it's

Ben Connor: a malformation and I think
many Christians then are malformed into

this expression of Christianity that is
really incongruent with the Christ that

they claim in their title, in their name.

And

Rupert Isaacson: I dunno if I'm
Christian, I dunno if I'm not Christian,

you know, I, I hang out at the Bushman
tra fires my, my experiences of God.

Are as much within watching
a healer in the Kalahari

use leopard energy to pull a
sickness outta somebody as it is

to do something within our culture.

And at the same time, I absolutely
think that at the Mystic Center

of all religions is, is, is the
sort of same expression of God.

And you find that kind of c
nature-based shamanism within

certain types of Christianity.

You, you might find it in c sort of
Catholic shamanic overlaid things

down in Central South America.

You might find it in France of Assisi.

You might find it in the Celtic
Christian outlook and, and so on.

So the kind

Ben Connor: of Christianity then that
you're allergic to is the kind that

asks you to be a cultural apprentice.

It's, it's, you have to
become a cultural apprentice.

It's the

Rupert Isaacson: kind that wants to.

Sell off Yellowstone.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

That's what I'm allergic to.

Ben Connor: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: That seems
the anti anti creation.

Ben Connor: It wants to take indigenous
people's holy spaces and name 'em

after prominent American folks.

Right, right.

Well, every, every church

Rupert Isaacson: in, in Europe is
built on a Pagan site, but yeah.

No ex exactly.

The desecration of, of
nature, the destruct.

So you

Ben Connor: don't have, so they don't have
a theological paradigm for engaging it.

So that's what, what's happened in
a sense, is those original moves of

the Christian movement sort of stop.

So, I mean, originally it
was a Jewish sect, right.

And then it becomes.

Greek.

And when it becomes Greek,
it gets the treasure of Greek

philosophical understanding, but
then it creates, creates doctrines.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Yeah.

Ben Connor: Right.

That then are exclusive of other people.

And then along with Constantine
power, you have the ability,

not just to, to He's de spoiled

Rupert Isaacson: his wife, by the way.

Right.

No,

Ben Connor: this is this.

It's, I'm not, he's
not a wonderful figure.

Right.

He the reason there's a Julie in the
apostate is because who, who came after

Constantine, who didn't like Christianity
at all, and, and put his face on the

coin with a big philosopher's beard
to give the Christians the finger and

put astrological signs on the back
and said, Rome needs to go back to.

The, the what we were is because
Constantine had killed every

potential person who could, you know,
challenge him as a Christian emperor.

But what you have then is you have
power and Christianity together.

Yeah.

And in order to keep a peaceable
kingdom, here's the doctrine

that we are gonna agree on.

So there aren't these factions,

Rupert Isaacson: ene
Christianity, Catholic, right.

Orthodox, which,

Ben Connor: and here we go to
our problem with creation, ene

Christianity is responding to the
question of the salvation of humans.

Not the broader biblical narrative
about the restoration of the world.

That all of creation is
groaning to be redeemed.

That that according to their
own scripture, Christ took on

flesh, not just humanity, but
took on all flesh and redeems it.

All that all things
come together in Christ.

So that, that is supposed to be
the Christian message, but ene

Christianity is all about the
salvation of individuals where you're

gonna have fights over an iota.

Homo states, you know, homo us,
Ian, people get excommunicated.

Now you have power.

You could actually kill 'em
if they have a different view,

Rupert Isaacson: right?

Ben Connor: And so there's, there's,
so we, we have that in the US that

it's of benefit to be a Christian.

That it gives you a certain kind of power.

And, and the theological questions
that were asked, in the exception of

Christianity, were about the salvation of
the human and not about the restoration

and redemption of all of creation.

And we just really haven't
developed much since then.

But there have always been
people who speak against that.

You mentioned Francis of
assi, but even contemporarily.

There was Pope Francis who just
passed away, wrote a beautiful

piece on creation and theology.

There's a book by Victoria
lores called church of the Wild.

That's about wild Christianity.

There's Thomas Berry, a Catholic.

He called himself a Biolog Biolog.

Rupert Isaacson: So

Ben Connor: he

Rupert Isaacson: is.

Love that.

Ben Connor: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: But
where are these people?

Why don't we hear about them?

Why are you the first
person telling us about it?

Ben Connor: Well, I'm the first
person telling you, you know, I yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: but come on.

I mean,

Ben Connor: yeah.

It's, it's not a, it's not,
it's not a center movement

Rupert Isaacson: is what, it's a
peripheral movement and why, isn't it?

Or, or is it going to become one?

Ben Connor: Well, in part
it's a giving up of power and

nobody likes to give up power.

Mm-hmm.

It's a distribution of power.

It's an equaling of people.

It's it's, it's costly.

It, it requires thinking
about what you eat.

It requires, you know, it,
it's just not the American way.

It's not about it's not about
gaining things and possessing

things and controlling things.

It's about giving that sort of a,
a worldview up and committing to a

kind of flourishing that might mean
in order for mutual flourishing.

You're standing quite an American

Rupert Isaacson: by this point.

Yeah, yeah,

Ben Connor: yeah.

We'll see.

And to many, I'll sound un-Christian,
but that doesn't hurt my feelings either,

Rupert Isaacson: you know?

Yeah.

Okay.

So you've convinced me
that there is a movement.

What's your work with this
movement to bring us to an idea

of stewardship rather than.

Effing it all up.

Ben Connor: Yeah.

And I would even say stewardship's a
limited term because it suggests that

we have the knowledge and wisdom to, I
mean, ha have we done more good or more

harm for the earth than even in the
stewardship things we've tried to do?

I don't know.

Right.

Yeah.

To some degree, stewardships is a,
is an, is an arrogant position that

doesn't recognize our limited knowledge
base and doesn't draw upon knowledge.

Well, there's knowledge

Rupert Isaacson: is human.

Right,

Ben Connor: right, right.

Yeah.

And, and again, here, going back
to scripture and Job, one of the

amazing verses when Job is trying
to make sense of what's going on

with his life is God's response.

Ask the beasts and they'll tell you, ask
the birds of the air and they'll tell

you, and we've broken this conversation.

We've, we've, we're only talking
to ourselves as Thomas Berry,

this Catholic theologian.

He says, we we're not talk, we're
not listening to the rivers.

We're not listening to the
animals, to the plants.

We're only talking to ourselves.

We've, we have a, we've lost
the wisdom of the, of the land.

Where's Thomas Berry based?

Oh, I don't know.

You can find his I don't, I
think he's passed away recently.

Sacred Universe.

The Sacred Universe and
Evening Sacred Universe.

That's one of his brilliant books.

Was he, was he

Rupert Isaacson: American?

Was he British?

Where's he from?

I think he's a us Catholic.

Was he Barry with an IE or A-Y-B-E-R-R-Y.

Thomas Barry, the Sacred
Universe Theologian.

Got, okay.

Gotta check it out.

Sounds like I won't be able
to have him on the show.

You're gonna have to interpret him for me.

Okay.

Well, that,

Ben Connor: so this is, that, that's a,
where people are talking about it though.

Matthew Scully wrote a book on
Dominion where he's challenging

this whole notion of dominion.

It's called Matthew Scully, S-C-U-L-L-Y.

Okay.

Matthew Scully.

Dominion.

Rupert Isaacson: Dominion.

Okay.

And

Ben Connor: one of the things he says
right at the start of the book is this.

He says, when you look at a rabbit and you
can see only a pest or vermin, or a meal,

or a commodity, or a laboratory subject,
you aren't seeing the rabbit anymore.

You're seeing only yourself
and the schemes and appetites

you bring to the world.

Wow.

And that's what Dominion is.

It's the schemes and appetites
we bring to the world.

We've broken the conversation.

We like the idea of kingdom, and we
like to think we take on the kingly

role and then we're no longer kin.

We're not in a kinship
relationship with all of creation.

So how do I bridge the gap between my
inherited Christianity and the vision

that I wanna point people towards?

Right.

A couple of ways.

Okay.

One is Christian Indigenous Americans
and Indigenous American Christians

who have a whole different paradigm.

When they read scriptures and when
they come to faith, that critiques

the one that they've inherited.

In other words, through their scripture
and their reading, now they have an

independent standard by which they can
critique the colonizer's Christianity.

And how do they critique it?

Well, they critique it as people who
live on Turtle Island, whose mythology

is filled with animals in wise roles.

They critique it as people who, when
they, they read they read the Bible,

it's a worldview that makes more sense
to them than a, a modern enlightenment

worldview where there are spirits and
angels and, and energies and animals who

are deeply involved in, in the telling
of these stories and in the redemption.

So, one gentleman in particular,
Randy Woodley, he talked to

he, he, he interviewed Randy

Rupert Isaacson: Woodley.

Ben Connor: Woodley,
W-O-O-D-L-Y, Randy Woodley.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Ben Connor: And I don't remember
his tribe, but he talked to many

different tribes and he found
something they all have in common.

He called the harmony way.

He calls it the Harmony Way.

And it's a way of being in the world
that's not so competitive, that sees

the wisdom of animals that doesn't
try to manipulate and control and,

and it's, it's just a such a different
sort of kinship worldview to the

modern enlightenment worldview that's
informed American Christianity.

That I would say it's almost a different
Christianity that's more faithful to the

biblical vision of shalom, shalom, peace,
harmony, wellbeing, this sort of thing.

So conversation partners like
Randy Woodley I'm looking

up right here at my shelf.

If I can find my glasses, and I have
like three different pairs of glasses,

depending on how far away something is.

We have becoming kin by Patty RAIC.

We have restoring the kinship view
by four arrows and another author.

So these indigenous worldviews, these
ways of understanding how are we

supposed to be in the world then is,
is informs their Christian expression.

Right?

And that's the same move that happened
when Christianity became a Jewish.

It went from a Jewish sect to include
Jewish, to include Greek people and then

the treasures of Greek philosophy come
in and have problems, but also things.

And then it goes to the Germanic people
and those, and it goes to, you know,

when Christianity goes to Africa.

Particularly Sub-Saharan Africa, you have
a critique of colonizing Christianity by

African indigenous churches that didn't
wanna give up an African worldview.

That doesn't start with the
Cartesian, I think therefore I am,

but starts more with like an muntu,
which is we are, therefore I am.

So it's a more communal understanding
of self than an individualistic one.

And okay.

Okay.

Now

Rupert Isaacson: something I go to
with that is again, because my family's

Southern African, because a lot of these
cultures that you've include, and also

I'm half Jewish, so Jewish culture, a
lot of Southern African culture, you're

still talking about agricultural,
post agricultural and herding cultures

that are effectively warrior cultures.

I.

With the same hierarchical systems
and endless cycles of blood feud,

warfare, atrocity for, for horsemen
of the apocalypse up and being very

happy to colonize each other when
they're not the ones being colonized.

You know, the Zulus, the Ani, the Dani,
which was the, you know, the Zulus in

South Africa, colonizing everybody else
around them until they ran up against

the, the, the buzz and the British who
then colonized them you know, west Africa.

Lots of colonization going on there,
you know, within that subcontinent.

The Germanic tribes colonizing
within Europe before they

went on blah, blah, blah.

The Romans obviously, and then,
you know, second Temple Judaism

by no means a nature based thing.

You know, by then.

You know, Judaism having gone from,
you know, way back, pre bronze age,

a polytheistic thing to eventually,
you know, Yahweh and his wife to

Yahweh, to some semblance of what we
now know to, you know, a, a, a sect

that becomes Christian much later on.

But by the time that happens, of course,
you know that, you know that, that

the empire building colonizing people,
they just happen to run up against the

Romans, you know, who were just better
at it, you know, for whatever reason.

So we're all the same

dysfunctional, yeah.

Creation, destroying people except
for the non-war tribes, the non-war

people, the hunter gatherers.

And, you know, we seem to have
this at the beginning of the Bible,

don't we, with Cain and Abel,
you know, Cain is the farmer.

Kills his brother Abel, who seems to be
with the beast of the field, the hunting

gatherer, classic thing, you know, the
hunt, the farmers can't tolerate free

moving people going across the land.

They can't tolerate free moving
animals going across the land.

So we end up with a parable.

It seems a, a metaphor within story.

You know, Cain and Abel, blah, blah, blah.

And then the, the mark of Cain, the curse
of Cain being that he wanders forever.

Well, of course, what
do farmers have to do?

They exhaust the land or they have
lots and lots of kids because you need

lots and lots of kids to put the crop
in the soil and bring the crop out.

So you can only pass the
land onto the oldest son.

So everyone else has to go out
and colonize somewhere else and

mess everyone else's lives up.

You know, this is the
curse, blah, blah, blah.

It keeps going.

We know this

and yes, of course evangelical American
Christianity is one of the many

expressions of this, but so are some of
the expressions of Christianity in Africa

or, you know, other parts of the world.

And I've always, I've never seen
like the, the problem with the

idea of say evolution and God.

It's like, well, why wouldn't an
intelligent God de design something as

amazing as, you know, as, as evolution?

I don't see that as being in any way
contradictory, you know, Darwin himself

as a Christian, blah, blah, blah.

Okay, but what do we do with it all?

The, the, the most functional people
I've ever met on the planet were son

Bushman, non-Christians, who many
Christians I know would say are damned

who yet lived live a, a, a very
Christ-like existence, both in terms

of how they relate to each other,
how they relate to outsiders, and

how they relate to the planet.

Given that Christianity comes out of
Second Temple Judaism, which is by

no means an environmental movement,

how do we go back to Abel?

How do we sort of leapfrog
back over Cain and go back to

Abel and keep our Christ thing?

I think I could answer that question,
but I kind of want to hear it from you.

This is intriguing to me and it's also
intriguing to me that this environmental

movement, by the way, within Christianity,
I've not heard it out the uk.

I've not heard it out of Africa
either, so it's, it seems to be very

fitting that it comes out of the USA.

Who are the people with the Christians
who are kind of messing it up the most?

Well, America land of extremes.

Okay.

You're gonna find people like you.

Ben Connor: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: As you know, if
you followed any of my work, I'm

an autism dad and we have a whole
career before this podcast in helping

people with neurodivergence, either
who are professionals in the field.

Are you a therapist?

Are you a caregiver?

Are you a parent?

Or are you somebody with neurodivergence?

When my son, Rowan, was
diagnosed with autism in 2004,

I really didn't know what to do.

So I reached out for mentorship, and
I found it through an amazing adult

autistic woman who's very famous, Dr.

Temple Grandin.

And she told me what to do.

And it's been working so
amazingly for the last 20 years.

That not only is my son basically
independent, but we've helped

countless, countless thousands
of others reach the same goal.

Working in schools, working at
home, working in therapy settings.

If you would like to learn this
cutting edge, neuroscience backed

approach, it's called Movement Method.

You can learn it online, you
can learn it very, very simply.

It's almost laughably simple.

The important thing is to begin.

Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr.

Grandin and see what results can follow.

Go to this website, newtrailslearning.

com Sign up as a gold member.

Take the online movement method course.

It's in 40 countries.

Let us know how it goes for you.

We really want to know.

We really want to help people like
me, people like you, out there

live their best life, to live
free, ride free, see what happens.

Can you explain to me then.

No, can you, can you
fantasize to me Go ahead.

20 years.

A hundred years in your mind, what's
coming out of Christian America and

how do we turn it all around for the
benefit of our planet and ourselves?

Ben Connor: Yeah, I think
it starts a couple of ways.

Deb Rera there's another name for
you, wrote a book called Ugia Ugia,

and she talks about a ugia faith.

But the way the book
starts is when Mount St.

Helen's exploded,
everything's covered with ash.

Everything looks like
death, but under the logs.

And under the rocks there's life
and these are spaces of Ugia and

it's grown back vibrant and lush.

And she says we need to have the same
kind of thing in our Christianity,

in a sense and a Christianity that
is exactly as you explained it.

There are these pockets, ofia.

So I think if we, if
we set up these pockets

Rupert Isaacson: called
Refugia, I love it.

Okay.

Ugia?

Ben Connor: Yeah.

Yeah.

You'd love to talk with Deb
and Ron sra, actually, they'd

be wonderful guests for you.

Okay.

Okay.

Keep

Rupert Isaacson: going.

Ben Connor: So, so it's
a, it's a place of growth.

It's a place of, you know, of, of
regrounding, of of moving forward,

of life among what seems like death.

And so then in my mind, I'm trying to
create places of ugia within the church.

And so this goes to one
project I'm on right now.

Okay.

And I think the place to
start is with the children.

You know, Malaguzzi wrote that
children have 100 languages

and we take away 99 of them.

In other words children
communicate so many ways.

Everything's a language,
everything's a world.

They're filled with
wonder, in part because.

They're not captive to their
rational capacities and trying

to name, explain control.

They know they don't know things.

And, and as a result, they go into spaces
with a kind of curiosity and they find

a sense of connection, a sense of awe, a
sense of wonder, humility and humility,

and also a sense of lament and humility.

This is a place to start, right?

So if we can start in the church with
our children, connecting them to nature

as a theological conversation partner
that's really not been listened to the

same way since the printing press, I
would say particularly in the us it's

like this movement to give everybody a
bible, everybody, seven or eight Bibles.

This sounds, I mean, this is something
that you don't wanna, it'd be if

I say this in a church or I say it
at a seminary, it's gonna be, I'm

really gonna get pushed back against.

But why are we creating more Bibles?

And why are we taking about this?

What's that doing to the environment?

It's a, because we're so word
centered that now the Bible instead

of something that, that a community.

That was the word and the word was

Rupert Isaacson: God.

Logos.

Ben Connor: Yeah.

So I mean, the Bible didn't even come
into being so people could have it.

For most of Christianity, you are a church
that had maybe one letter from Paul or

Luke Acts and another church had more.

Mm-hmm.

And when you met together, it'd be read.

But the most important thing was
your, your way of life in the world.

How, what's your way of life in the world?

But post printing press match that
with Cartesian individualism and our

tendency towards mastering control.

Now everybody has their own Bible.

Everybody's their own hope.

Everybody's their own
church to some degree.

But this movement then what becomes
squelched is God's voice in nature and the

way we've organized our societies, make
us less and less connected to this world.

You know, we have conditioned
environments and even within the churches,

then you try to replicate things.

A vault that goes to the heavens, well
just step outside and look up, right?

I, I was at this real, I was at a, at
a camp once, and they took everybody

from the camp inside a room and started
saying, now imagine, you know, Jesus is

there and Peter's walking on the water.

Imagine a lake.

I'm like, we were just outside.

There was a lake.

You know, go out to the lake.

Why do we feel like we
can't gain this wisdom?

It's because it's about control.

These wrong interpretations are dangerous.

There's, but you know, anyways,
the point being, yeah, I want you

to pay, let's start with children.

Pay me

Rupert Isaacson: five.

If I want you to pay me
money, then I've got to Yeah.

Get you in a room and brainwash you.

Yeah, sure.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ben Connor: So let's start with the
children and let's teach the adults a new

language through the eyes of children.

So you learn that.

So let's start with the assumption that
children are theological creatures,

that children have a connection to
God, that God loves children, and

that God's communicating to them
in a way that they understand.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Well, that

Ben Connor: makes the Bible secondary.

Rupert Isaacson: True.

You know, it does, it

Ben Connor: doesn't mean that
the Bible's unimportant, but for

children, it makes it secondary.

What's the most important thing
is the encounter they have with

the divine through creation.

So let's learn the many
languages of children and of

children with disabilities.

So, we actually got a grant from
the Lilly Foundation to do this.

And the first thing we did is three
orientations for all the adults around

disability theory, disability, theology,
theology of children, children as

spiritual beings, children as learning
children as curious, a theology of

wonder these sorts of things and a
theology of nature and creatures.

And, and so we, we, we prepared
them and then we had six weeks

where for four hours on a Sunday,
we just followed the children.

We followed them to see birds and, and
put their arms out and see what kind

of bird they are, and to hold snakes.

Now, this is not snake handling.

I wanna be clear.

That's not the kind of
Christianity I'm in.

But just to to enjoy and appreciate
creation, to play in the words, to create

environments to, to, what's gonna change?

The church is not a doctrine about
how we should treat creatures.

What's gonna change the church is a
generation of people who are in love with

the world that God created and see it
as enchanted, that expect to encounter

God when they're next to a horse.

Expect to encounter God in the
beautiful music of a stream.

The holiest place I have is the pond
behind my house where I have windy the

willow tree dancing, watching me as I'm
inside the pond, pulling out the algae,

surrounded by a halo of fish who snap
up everything I loosen where ducks come

along the side and watch what I'm doing
curiously, and let the red wing blackbird

know I'm not coming for their nest.

So you don't have to dive bomb his head.

He's okay.

You know.

And the Oculus I have.

Isn't in a dark room, a little
hole that says God's present.

It's the whole sky, you know?

And the baptismal waters I
have aren't confined to a

fountain, but it's my whole pond.

And I share these baptismal
waters with the fish.

So why would I wanna put chemicals
in that's gonna hurt them if I

could find a better way to coexist?

Because these fish helped me make it
through COVID as I went in federal.

So anyway, this sounds like Harrison.

Oh, absolutely.

I'm good.

Have

Rupert Isaacson: the inquisition
shown up at your house yet?

Ben Connor: No.

I'm sure they'll come though.

And, and what a, what better
way to go than, than than

trying to enlarge the faith.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, so in terms of
pushback I, I, I love what you just

said in, in, in terms of pushback.

What pushback do you get on w working.

With your Center for
Disability and Ministry and

looking at the wonder with which
children engage in nature or

nature and special needs, you know,
your Lily grant it, it would seem

insane to push back against that.

So I'm interested to know what sort
of insanities have, have, have arisen.

Ben Connor: Well, you'll
be interested to know.

I've received almost no pushback.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Ben Connor: I just think you haven't

Rupert Isaacson: publicized it yet.

Ben Connor: Perhaps.

We'll see how that goes.

I mean, yeah.

You know, I'm working on a book on harmony
with horses where I'm promoting these

sort of theological worldviews and, you
know, I mean, I'm a published author.

You are too.

You know, once you put
something out there, you know.

People are gonna hate it.

People are gonna think
you're the worst thing ever.

For me, in my, I wrote a book called
disabling Mission, enabling Witness.

And the whole idea of that mission, the
way that we practice mission evangelism

is been informed by very ableist biases.

Rupert Isaacson: Hmm, good point.

Ben Connor: A certain kinds
of communication, right?

So, and so I say to disable in my mind
is to take away those ableist biases.

And so that's what I'm trying
to my theological project.

You think about

Rupert Isaacson: disarming really?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ben Connor: Disabling theological
education, that's how the Center for

Disability and Ministry came to be.

And then I wrote you know, disabling
mission and, you know, I'm always,

I'm always thinking about that.

How can we, how can we center.

Wisdom that hasn't been at the center.

So how do you center children?

You, you center children's insights,
then you engage theology differently.

You, you center your relationship
with the horse, you know, then you,

then you see the world differently,

Rupert Isaacson: right?

Ben Connor: So the main pushback,
the main pushback I get would be that

I'm what would be called a pantheist
or a panentheist, which means, which

I'm, I wouldn't say I'm a pantheist,
which means everything is God.

God is everything.

That, that wouldn't be where I fit in.

Panentheism says God is in everything.

I don't have a problem with that.

I just don't like the label, you know?

But traditional theism has been so
informed by I think sort of, Greek

philosophical categories that, that
they've, they've been so entwined.

It's almost like it's the same thing.

So.

So I'm happy to push back against
various things and do some constructive

theology and see what happens.

And, and unless you're willing to
make some mistakes, you know, it, you

gotta, you gotta go ahead and make some
statements to, to stimulate discourse.

Rupert Isaacson: True.

Okay.

So what are the odds that we
will see in the next 20 years?

Cons, you know, conservative
Christian megachurches in Houston,

going out and planting forests.

I'm hopeful.

Talk to me about that.

Hope take, take me through
how that could happen.

Yeah.

Because I would love that to happen.

Ben Connor: Yeah.

Yeah.

I, I think as, as, consequences
of the way that we've treated

the environment hit home.

And so, so a lot of the
immigration migration is related

to climate issues, right?

A lot of people's homes and,
and, and places that they value

have been impacted by this.

A lot of the things they like to
eat have been impacted by this.

Once it becomes a personal experience
for you, then for many Christians,

that's when you start to ask new
and fresh theological questions.

And my hope is by the time they're
asking these questions, which I can't

imagine what happened particularly, you
know, not to get political, but in this

administration, you're gonna roll back
any sort of environmental restraint.

You know, as we see the consequences of
this, then even these conservative, these

more conservative congregations will have
to start asking new theological questions.

And my hope is that there's a group
of resources there that they can

call upon as this, this theological
movement, eco theology and biolog and

people who are creating ugia places as
they're growing these resources will

become, you know, someone from within
their tradition is going to write

something that they're interested in.

Rupert Isaacson: I love it.

I guess what I'm seeing practically is
yeah, let's say the children of the people

growing up within that type of church,
historically have, I have had two choices.

They, they could either

reject.

And say it is all a load of
wan because it kind of is.

And then go off into their
lives outside the church or

certainly outside that church.

Ben Connor: Yep.

Rupert Isaacson: But still hopefully
take some you know, nice things with

them if they could salvage some.

But it's usually been stale.

Go, it's usually been drink
the Kool-Aid or escape.

Ben Connor: When they escape,
they go a couple ways.

There's something called ex evangelicals.

I don't know if you've ever died again.

Rupert Isaacson: Christians.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Ben Connor: So, yeah.

So instead of evangelicals or ex
evangelicals, they're not giving up

the faith, they're just giving up that
particular way of understanding it.

Mm-hmm.

And these ex evangelicals are
much more connected to issues

around sexuality around dominance.

But again, where are these people?

Rupert Isaacson: I don't hear about them.

I don't meet them.

These evangelicals, where are they?

Ben Connor: They're out there.

They're very much into podcasting.

So you could, you could easily type in ex
evangelical and you'll find a lot of 'em.

That's sort of the white, upper
middle class way to deal with

your issues in the United States.

Just start a podcast.

Rupert Isaacson: Look at me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Ben Connor: Well, yeah, me too.

We have a podcast through the
center called Disabling the Church.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Disabling the church.

Yeah.

Okay.

I need to start listening to it.

Ben Connor: Yeah.

So that that's one direction they go.

The other direction is, yeah,
maybe they give up on calling

themselves Christians, but a pew.

If you, if you look at these pew
research sort of interviews about the

state of religion in the United States,
you find that even people who say that

they are the nuns, meaning when you
check something about your religious

affiliation, you check the category, none.

You keep going down the list.

You find out that they aren't giving up
on God and one of the places they feel

most connected to God is in nature.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Ben Connor: And so I, that,
that's the path that I'm taking

to get this conversation going.

I don't think I'm gonna change the
mind of the diet in the wool American

evangelical of the more conservative ilk.

I think I can work with evangelicals
very well and I can work with people

who have left the church but still
find God when they walk in Saugatuck

dunes, you know, these sorts of things.

And I can give them some language
and I, 'cause they look, this, this

scripture is actually pointing to this
kind of thing that you're talking about.

The Christian faith is actually
it, it should have the capacity to

speak into this in meaningful ways.

Rupert Isaacson: Well that was going
to be my next question actually

was you know, I dunno, scripture,
like, you know, scripture I know

little fragments here and there.

Can you give me some choice quotes
from Old and New Testament about why

we shouldn't be buggering it all up?

Ben Connor: Yeah.

I mean, one was that from job 12 seven,
ask the Beasts and they will teach you

ask the birds of the air and they, they'll
show you this, this whole idea that,

that, that there's wisdom in creation
and we should connect with the wisdom.

You go to some of the Psalms and so
the problem, okay, so we're, we're

oriented in scripture by the creation
accounts in, in Genesis, the beginning

of Genesis, which seems to make
the point that everything's made.

Then you make humans.

Now it's very good and your job is
to have dominion over it, right?

But then you read in a creation in
the Psalms where it talks about the

creation and it says the hills are
made for the Cooney and the deep

is made for the beasts of the sea.

Almost like humans aren't
even in mind for this.

You know, the idea that animals have
a connection with God without us.

If you want to know anything
about that, you better hope

they're around to tell you.

So you wanna preserve their
environment and you wanna learn

how to, you wanna learn about 'em,
you wanna draw on the sciences.

So as I think about horses,
'cause you had my wife Melissa,

I think on a different podcast

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

The, the Equine Assisted World podcast.

Yeah.

Ben Connor: And so she runs
renew Therapeutic Riding Center.

And one of the things we're working
on is how do Christians think

about horses as having a vocation?

A call.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

So vocation.

So vocation is right to Ari's a podcast in

Rupert Isaacson: itself.

Yeah.

Ben Connor: Yeah.

So in Christianity, the view is
you've been called to follow.

And when we think of vocation,
we think of the big noun.

What's the thing I'm
gonna do when I grow up?

So we're anxious all the
way through high school.

What are we gonna be?

And then we don't know who we
are after retirement 'cause we

don't know anymore who we are
now 'cause we don't have the job.

But Kathleen Cahalan says, instead
of talking about vocation as a

noun, we should talk about it in
terms of prepositions, I'm called

alongside, I'm called through, I'm
called into, I'm called out of.

Mm-hmm.

We have many different callings.

So I'm called as a professor.

I'm called as a as a grant writer.

I'm called as a husband.

I'm called as a father.

I'm also called into
relationship with my dogs.

I'm called into relationship with silk
of the horse and we start thinking.

Wouldn't people think
differently of animals?

If instead of saying this is a
tool that you use for services that

you thought of as animal as having
a vocation, a calling from God.

Well, vocation is also about
being able to use your voice.

Voice and vocation.

I've amplified my voice
in different settings.

How does a course have a voice?

How does a horse have agency?

In order to understand this, we need to
learn how to communicate with a horse.

So we have to draw on Stephen Peters
and Martin Black and all the people

who've done this horse head, human head.

I forget who wrote that, Jane something.

Horse,

Rupert Isaacson: brain, human brain.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Horse,

Ben Connor: brain.

Human brain.

Yeah.

But so now you're learning, you're,
you're looking at the horse differently.

You're saying, this horse
needs to have a voice.

I need to learn how to listen
to the voice of the horse.

If the horse isn't flourishing, the
horse isn't in a vocation, so we

can't do anything that's of benefit
to a student that's not in line with

the vocation or calling of the horse.

So there's mutual flourishing.

How do we organize our center?

How do we feed horses?

How do we turn them out?

How do we turn pastures?

How do we allow them the time to get used
to an environment before they go in it?

How do we, you know, do we know that the
horse, if this chair's in different place,

it's not a chair, it might be a lion.

Now, I, you know, all those weird things
about horses that Melissa could tell you

all about, but horses have a vocation.

They have a voice.

We just have to learn
how to hear their voice.

'cause it's usually a nonverbal voice.

It's ear postural.

It's, it's, it's the
tension of the muzzle.

It's the what the hind end is doing.

It's, it's what the tail's doing.

It's all, it's what the, how, how
the eyes are, or the eyes soft.

Or the eyes dead, you know?

Yes, the horse is doing the thing,
but the horse is getting no enjoyment.

Yeah.

All, all these sorts of things
are for the vocation of the horse.

Now, this is a, it's a, it's a creature
that we invite to share a vocation

with us, but the horse can say no.

And we have to listen to the horse
to know when the horse is saying

no, I have a different vocation.

So swing because of trauma related
to being a polo horse, is never gonna

be a good therapeutic riding horse
because of all the, you know, unless

you desensitize swing and take all
the joy out of his life and make him

an ottoman, that au ottoman that just
walks around the arena, loping around

carrying somebody that's not swing's,
vocation, but swing is very good at

being a pasture friend to another horse.

Rupert Isaacson: If we then go
from horses to mountains, rivers,

ecosystems.

Ben Connor: Alright.

Rupert Isaacson: Talk to me about
mountains, rivers, and ecosystems.

Having vocations.

Ben Connor: So mountains have been
around a lot longer than we have.

I don't think we have the patience
to listen to a mountain or the

lifespan to listen to a mountain.

Our, our, our our listening is,
is, is is this big mountains

listening is generations and
generations and generations.

But I, I do believe that, that mountains
have vocations other than being blown

up with dynamite to hold images of
presidents or images of civil War

heroes or, or anything like that,

Rupert Isaacson: or, or coal mine.

Yeah.

Ben Connor: And I think the people
who were closer to the vocation of

these mountains were the indigenous
people whose livelihood were tied

to the mountains, whose mythologies
were connected to the mountains.

I think, I think bodies of water have
a lot to say to us, but were, were

putting chemicals in their throats.

We're putting runoff from
fertilizers in their throats.

We're we're putting
plastic in their throats.

We're taking all the life of the
ecosystems outta their throats and

we're starting to hear their voice
again when we participate in reef,

you know, helping reefs to grow back.

And when we have responsible ways of
fishing, instead of just huge nets

that pull up everything or sharks
that are just harvested for their fins

or whales that are just harvested.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, when we just
stop behaving abusively, basically.

Ben Connor: Yeah, so
I, so here's the thing.

This goes to vocation.

The vocation of a horse is to be a horse.

That's it.

And a horse doesn't mess up.

Its vocation.

But humans can mess up
the horse's vocation.

And the vocation of a
mountain is to be a mountain.

And mountains don't mess up the
vocation, but humans can get

in the way of their vocation.

Rupert Isaacson: What's
a human's vocation then?

Ben Connor: This is the key.

Can we mess that up?

Yes.

A human's vocation is to be
a human, but we suck at it.

We wanna dominate and
control other humans.

What is being a human

Rupert Isaacson: dominant?

What is being a human?

Ben Connor: So now you're into something
from a Christian standpoint that's

called theological anthropology, right?

So anthropology is just the
study of humans and human

cultures and humans in the world.

Theological anthropology
adds another layer.

What does it mean to
be a human before God?

And so, a theological anthropology before

Rupert Isaacson: Christ.

Ben Connor: Before Christ.

Yeah.

And so, so Christ, Jesus Christ from a
Christian standpoint, you would say, then

lived out the human vocation properly
and what it result in his death, because

it's in a world that's not oriented
towards living in a human vocation.

It's in, well, I meant

Rupert Isaacson: in the Kalahari
at the same time in which you

were behaving in a Christlike
way and getting along just fine.

Ben Connor: Yeah.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: So, so, okay, so,

Ben Connor: so, so then a, a human
vocation then is to be a, a human, which

means there's, there's a, a, a calling
to bear witness to the goodness of God.

That's in everything, to, to treat
all of creation as kin, to treat all

people in ways that with dignity.

And so the human creation
is to live into this vision.

Of the kingdom of God that's already
breaking into the present in little ways.

And, and these little
ways are, are for example,

I talked about Julian, the apostate.

It's never good if your, your, your name
has the apostate after it typically.

But so Julian, the apostate, I understand
where he is coming from, considering

his family was killed by Constantine.

That's that I understand that he
wanted to bring the, the Greek

culture back to the center.

Yeah.

Clintonism, yeah.

Animating.

Right, right.

And so at, at one point though,
when plagues broke out what

do you do in that culture?

If someone's sick, you get 'em out.

Right?

You, you cast them out.

And so, what happened then
was the Christians went

out where these folks were.

And they prayed for them.

They anointed them with oil.

They gave them food and most importantly,
they gave them human presence and care.

And this what?

What happened then?

Well, some immunity was built up.

Some people came to health and
then as a result of that, then

they came to the Christian faith.

'cause they said it's the practice of the
faith that drew me to it, not a doctrine.

This care did.

So Julian, the apostate then calls all
this priest to him and he says, look.

These impious Galileans, which is what
he called Christians impious, Galileans

impious, because they didn't worship
the state-sponsored Gods Galileans as a

diminutive way of talking about Christians
following this dead guy from Galilee.

These impious Galileans care not only
for their own sick, but for ours as well.

That is, that's a way of being in
the world that's bearing witness to

the way that the world should be.

That's hospitality, that's
care, that's friendship.

Christian practices that give
a vision of the kingdom of God.

And we try to do that at renew with our
relationship with the horses as well.

It's sort of a vision of the
peaceable kingdom where humans and

animals work together in harmony.

Rupert Isaacson: If you were to put
this Christian view, and I also, I

want to go back to, is anything in
the New Testament talking about.

The, the right relationship
of human to nature.

But let's just put that to the side.

Now, if you were, if you were to go
to your average suburban megachurch

in the south and posit your view
on eco theology bio biolog, yeah,

Ben Connor: yeah, yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: What,
what would they say to you?

Ben Connor: So, I'm not
a hundred percent sure.

My suspicion is if I, so if I
were going in that context, I

would have a whole bunch of bible
verses with what I'm saying, right?

Because they would be really anxious
about my theological conversation.

Partners, they would say,

Rupert Isaacson: why do you think,
why, but why do you think they wouldn't

be like, actually, you know what?

Yeah, Ben, that makes a lot of sense.

Yeah, sure.

Sey.

Let's do it.

Let's go plant.

We we're gonna raise a million dollars and
plant a forest in our backyard right now.

Like why would there be a difficulty
taking on your point of view when

your point of view is not only
seemingly vocational and very

Christian, but also common sense,
so it be coming from their pushback.

Ben Connor: Well, I think
it's a habitus, right?

A habitus that they've been formed into.

Mm.

Which is the, which is a, is sort of
embodied way of interpreting and seeing

in the world that's been informed by
a mis oriented dominion that drive to

differentiate themselves from creatures.

And for many of 'em understanding
this world is a dramatic backdrop.

And then along with that, it's, it's
a almost a kind of Bible worship.

You know, I would say
that Jesus isn't the Lord.

Rupert Isaacson: The,

Ben Connor: that's interesting.

Their interpretation of
the Bible is the Lord.

And so I'm calling into question

Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.

Ben Connor: Long, entrenched biblical
interpretations of scriptures that

aren't just a matter of opinion,
but are a matter of identity.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Yeah.

That's well took.

And so

Ben Connor: it's tough
to have this discourse.

It in order to have, in order
to have genuine discourse, that

has to be the openness to the
possibility that I'm wrong.

Rupert Isaacson: Here's another question.

Okay, so let's go to a different abusive
colonist thing outside of America.

Let's go to my own family and the
British Empire and all of that.

What's interesting about the British
Empire is that they definitely

did all sorts of bad stuff.

And at the same time there was a
conservation movement that was similar

to like the Roosevelt Conservation
Movement, which people would say

cynically came on the back of.

You know, native American
genocides and so on.

Yes, yes it did.

And the, and the formation of
national parks in Africa and that

sort of thing were also predicated
upon, you know, mass displacement

and removals of peoples and so on.

Not in every case.

You've got the Maasai still in the
Maasai Mara and that sort of thing.

But for the, for the most part, and this
idea of primordial nature existing without

humanity in a pristine form is bullshit.

Humans were always there.

But just living in right
relationship, not wrong relationship.

However, for example, let's say
if you were in the British Forest

Service in British India in 1933,
and you were administering a tract

of forest, you would give 1% of.

That forest land over to people who
wanted to log it or, and the remaining

99% would be regarded as sacrosanct
to be, you know, blah, blah, blah.

And if I'm here in Germany and I was just
actually riding through the woods today

with a, a very lovely Christian American
called Connie Uba, who works within

therapeutic riding and out of Tennessee.

And we were just admiring the
forest and we were talking about

how this forest is, is maintained.

It is a working forest.

It's logged, but it's not clear cut.

So it's logged in a very thoughtful way.

The timber is absolutely sold.

You can see the trees that have been
marked up, but they, they never let the

canopy disperse and they never let the
root system get, troubled, and there's

all kinds of biodiversity in that forest.

So there's, you know,
all kinds of wildlife.

We, we were seeing it, you know, as
we were riding through, there's all

kinds of interesting plant life and
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And this since.

Now, the reason I'm saying all of
these things is that the area that

I'm in, in Germany's very Christian
those people that were administering

the British Empire would've seen
themselves as the three Cs, commerce,

civilization, and Christianity altogether.

Right.

But it seems to be very, you
know, a very American thing.

This idea that again, is where
we started the podcast, that the

Christian viewpoint means destruction.

Ben Connor: Destruction, yeah.

So it's related to unli.

It's, it's related to this idea
that we have unlimited resources.

You know, we just keep, but the

Rupert Isaacson: people who
went to Africa felt they did.

And the people in the 17th century
in Yeah, Germany thought they did

Ben Connor: well.

I mean, it's, it's still
happening everywhere.

It's related to meat.

Fair to some, isn't it?

Fair enough.

I mean,

Rupert Isaacson: fair enough.

Alright,

Ben Connor: let's look at Brazil.

What is it?

Brazilian rainforest.

What's happening?

They're becoming a place for cattle.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, right?

Ben Connor: Why?

Because they want the money that comes
from selling the meat for cattle.

Right?

So then what kind of, what kind of
things do you have to now grow if

you're gonna support these cattle?

You have to grow The corn that you turn
into silage, that you fill the cattle

that isn't, none of that is supporting.

Human growth.

None of it's, that's happened
in the United States as well.

I was shocked when I moved to
the Midwest how humid it was.

I thought I lived in the most, I
thought I lived in the armpit of

America when I lived in the historical
triangle of Jamestown, Yorktown.

And in Williamsburg I
lived in a swamp, you know?

No, how you get pretty

Rupert Isaacson: sweaty there.

Yeah.

It can

Ben Connor: get very sweaty there.

And then I thought, oh, that's it.

And then I come out to the Midwest and
I'm like, gosh, it's just as humid.

Where's it coming from?

The corn fields.

These ridiculous corn fields you get.

I drove my daughter to school
on the far end of Iowa.

Why do the

Rupert Isaacson: cornfield make
it humid to other grasslands?

'cause corns are grass.

Ben Connor: Yeah.

It's, it's just from the.

The way that it produces the,
the corn somehow it's just

letting out all kind of humidity.

I don't, I don't know
all the details of it.

I don't know if it has to do with the
seeding and the chemicals and all that.

I just know as I drive across
Iowa, I see cornfield, cornfield,

cornfield, cornfield, and none
of it's for human consumption.

It's all for the next state.

You drive through and see
cattle, cattle, cattle, cattle,

cattle, and, and feed lots.

Yeah.

And what's that doing to the environment?

What's that doing to the environment?

So I think some of it has to do with
just straight up Christianity hasn't

provided a strong critique to the way
that we've treated the environment

based on our dietary commitments.

And, and what's that?

Christianity hasn't had a critique to
that in the mainstream because we're all

just a bunch of meat eaters who want to
be able to buy our hamburger for 3 99 a

pound at a big box store for convenience.

So this is what I'm talking about.

It's gonna cost this kind
of movement's gonna cost.

And, and in, in the US we're
not ready to face that cost yet.

And I think that it's in the generations
that come behind the, so the kids that

grew up, the kids that are growing up now.

It's different.

I mean, they see people with disabilities
in leading roles on tv, not just

used as a prop or as inspiration
porn for somebody else, right?

They see they see diversity in terms
of sexuality, and they are feeling

the, the impact of guns in schools.

So the people who are starting these
environmental movements, these movements

against assault weapons and these sorts
of things, these are the young people.

And these, the young people are
the ones who are gonna have to

say, Hey, it's worth the sacrifice
to, to start to make a difference.

And, and the young people are Christians.

They're gonna have to say, our
theology's not prepared for this.

And so we have

Rupert Isaacson: to revisit it.

Yeah.

I thought our theology's
not prepared for this.

So, you know, when I asked
you for, where's, where's the

environmentalism in the Bible?

You gave you something from job, but it's
not like it's everywhere in the Bible.

Right.

And where is it in the New Testament?

Or is it that?

Ben Connor: Yeah, I mean it's,
it's, or do we have to read

Rupert Isaacson: between
the lines to find it?

Ben Connor: You have to
read between the lines.

But in Romans, in, in Romans chapter
eight, it's gonna talk about all of

creation, groaning for redemption.

And then, and, and, and, and Philippians
is gonna talk about Jesus' is the sort of

the head over all that is all of creation
comes into its fullness in Jesus Christ.

And then you're gonna get a vision
and revelation of the tree restored.

I mean, you know, the, the
mythology of, of Adam and Eve with

rejecting the hospitality of God.

It's not about the apple.

It's really more about the
rejection of the hospitality of God.

It's about it's about hubris and
these sorts of things, but when

we see the restoration vision and.

In Revelation.

Then we have the tree of life.

We have the river of life.

We have those sorts of visions of
ancy and, and fertility in life.

And so it's, it's, it's not strong.

But of course, the Bible is
fundamentally a book to be read outside.

I mean, Jesus in the wilderness.

There's some beautiful artwork by
Stanley Spencer called Jesus Jesus

Rupert Isaacson: in the wilderness.

Jesus in the wilderness.

Maybe that's what we're looking for.

Ben Connor: I think we're looking at, so
it's not really told what happens there.

People think, okay, he, he
goes 40 days and he's fasting.

He's starving.

He is miserable.

He is tempted by the devil.

And then where does he go?

He gets baptized and water starts his
public ministry, this sort of thing.

Stanley Spencer wondered what happened
when the person who's involved in creation

is there with creation and he has these
clever pictures having been impacted

by the devastation of World War I.

You know, the trenches and mustard
gas and, and, and fire and everything.

Just the death and destruction.

I think his paintings are a kind
of ugia, it's a vision of Ugia.

Who talking about here?

Sorry?

Stanley.

Stanley.

Spencer.

Stanley.

Spencer.

Rupert Isaacson: Oh, yes, yes,

Ben Connor: yep.

And so, I think I can't remember where his
art is now, maybe in Durham, but he, he

wanted to do 40 paintings for the 40 days.

But one of 'em is Jesus.

Yes.

His

Rupert Isaacson: paintings are
all over churches in England.

Yeah, yeah.

Yep.

He

Ben Connor: does one called, you
know, the foxes have holds where Jesus

seems to be part of the environment
and the foxes are playing around him.

And there's one where he is holding a
scorpion, and the scorpions obviously

stung him, but he's looking at it
with such curiosity and and love.

And there's one where, you know, he's
like the mother hen with the hens around.

And there's one where even the lilies,
where he looks like a boulder, and he

is, he's attending to these lilies.

Stanley Spencer was saying it was
this time in the wilderness that

gave Jesus the strength to do what
he was gonna have to do the next

three years in his public ministry.

It was this connection and may
perhaps he was nurtured and cared

for by the very environment.

Rupert Isaacson: If you made it
this far into the podcast, then I'm

guessing you're somebody that, like
me, loves to read books about not

just how people have achieved self
actualization, but particularly

about the relationship with nature.

Spirituality, life, the
universe, and everything.

And I'd like to draw your
attention to my books.

If you would like to read the story
of how we even arrived here, perhaps

you'd like to check out the two New
York Times bestsellers, The Horseboy

and The Long Ride Home, and come on an
adventure with us and see what engendered,

what started Live Free Ride Free.

And before we go back to the
podcast, also check out The Healing

Land, which tells the story of.

My years spent in the Kalahari with the
Sun, Bushmen, hunter gatherer people

there, and all that they taught me, and
mentored me in, and all that I learned.

Come on that adventure with me.

Now I think, I think you just draw my
attention to something interesting.

So yes, there, there was of course
an environmental, philosophical,

mythological movement within Christianity
that we all know about, but don't pay

a lot of attention to because they
were written as children's books.

And that of course is Narnia.

Ben Connor: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: So CS Lewis, as we
know goes through World War I and then

has a sort of a Christian rebirth.

And what does he write?

Course he writes lots of things, but
the Narnia Chronicles are about, are

with characters who the church took
from pagan religion and mythology and

turned into demons and devils, you know.

People with horns on their head and
goat's legs, for example, and turns them

into the good characters because they
were, of course back then and the white

witch is manipulating that creation.

Mm-hmm.

But as control, who is a lion, who's
an animal, and lion shall lie down

with a lamb, and so on and so on.

But none.

And, and, and maybe that's it again,
lion shall lie down with the lamb.

I, I think that was what was
fundamentally driving CS Lewis.

That idea comes out of World War I, which
is everyone tries to kill everybody.

And now let's get back to Lion
with the Lamb and let's, but

specifically going back to pagan
imagery and mythology, you, you know.

SEIUs is in there, Baus is in there.

You know, all these pagan dairies are in
there, and yet there's no, and, and, and

Christ is a lion and there's no separation
in CS Lewis's mind about that Christmas.

And the other one is Tolkien.

So Tolkien, I was gonna say
Tolkien and the, and the

trees, the wisdom of the trees.

He, he goes through World
War I, the same thing.

Yep.

And what they both also describe in their
when the villains are trying to, you know,

whether it's so, and Mann cutting down
Fon or the white witch, you know, turning

everything into stone concrete, you know.

Yeah.

What they were seeing, of course.

pre-World War I was
industrialization of the countryside.

And then they were seeing the
absolute devastation of, of nature.

They were in these French forests
that just got absolutely destroyed.

But then were resurrected later.

They're, they're back now.

And then they came out of this
and they wrote these books.

Yeah.

Which are deeply Christian books with
ELs and wizards and thorns and things.

And so, so I guess it's interesting,
I I, I guess it is there hiding in

plain sight this this environmental
movement within the church.

Yeah.

Are are you all gonna bring us back to Mr.

Nus and, and, and, and Tom Bombadil?

Ben Connor: Yeah.

No, I, I think I think I'm gonna
try to do it through, through

nature excursions with children.

I think I'm gonna do it with a recasting
of the horses having a vocation.

Yeah.

I think that's the way that I'm,
I'm imagining moving forward in this

conversation and, and through my
own how I consume and, and how I,

'cause we have to consume, I mean,
everything consumes or you die, you

have to consume, but how consume

Rupert Isaacson: consuming
as being part of nature.

It's just how we do it,

Ben Connor: right?

Yeah.

I mean, one of the most yeah.

Soil is, is death and life.

Mm-hmm.

At the same time.

And so how, how do I, how do
I engage the world in a, in a

faithful way that doesn't, that,
that contributes to the flourishing

of all creatures and, and land.

And that's a challenge.

It's a challenge with where you get
your clothes and what you eat and

Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.

Mm.

It is

Ben Connor: even, even how you, how
you take care of your pond, you know,

all those, all those are challenging.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

What you feed your horse.

Absolutely.

Let alone feed your horse.

Feed now.

Okay.

I would like to see like forest schools.

I would like to see forest churches.

Are we gonna go back to sacred groves?

Can we go back to Sacred Groves?

Ben Connor: So that is
Victoria Loz, L-O-O-R-Z.

Victoria Loz.

She wrote

Rupert Isaacson: L-O-O-R-Z.

Yep,

Ben Connor: that is right.

She wrote a book called
Church of the Wild.

Church

Rupert Isaacson: of the Wild.

Ben Connor: Church of the Wild.

And she was a, she was a minister
for years working inside the church.

And then she realized that,
all the things we've talked

about were a challenge for her.

So she started having outdoor church
services and now there's a whole network

in the United States of, of wild churches.

There's a wild church network.

Rupert Isaacson: Wild church network.

Ben Connor: So in just about every,
and she even has almost like a, a wild

church, church of the Wild Seminary,
almost like she has trainings you

can do and they'll be reading you
know, Thomas Berry and let's see,

Farland Lane, the great conversation.

And they'll read

Rupert Isaacson: Shanette.

I've just Googled it.

Ben Connor: Oh, you found her?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: She just founder.

Ben Connor: Yeah, so I, I've had
a couple conversations with her.

She's doing really creative work on that.

Again, it's outside of the
mainstream of Christianity, but I

think it's starting to have some

Rupert Isaacson: popping up
all over the land, like wild

mushrooms after a spring rain.

Wild churches, wild church communities
are responding to a call from deep

within to change the way we relate to the
natural world, moving from a collection

of objects to a communion of subjects.

Thomas Barry.

There you go.

See,

Ben Connor: there's the conversation.

So in this

Rupert Isaacson: stage of mass
extinctions as, wow, wow, wow.

Okay.

It's all there.

Mm-hmm.

So why didn't I know about this?

I'm throwing a little tantrum now.

Nah, nah, nah.

This is my tantrum.

Why?

No, I, I've, I've been living in
Texas for, you know, 20 plus years.

Why has no one told me about this?

Ben Connor: Yeah.

I, I, I have no idea.

I can't tell you that, but I'm
glad we're having a conversation.

How did you find out about

Rupert Isaacson: it?

That, what, what was the before and
the after of you discovering this

nature movement Within the church?

Hmm.

Or within Christianity.

Let's not even say the church.

Let's say we think Christianity.

Ben Connor: Yeah.

I think growing up there were
some things around stewardship.

There were some bible study sort of
things around stewardship in the nineties,

but none of 'em were really gripping.

It wasn't until I.

I think it was related to doing
research for this grant, maybe.

No, it was, you know what, it
was my relationship with horses.

It was through Melissa when I
was hanging out with horses.

And of course I'm always thinking
theologically and I thought,

who's really written about this?

And I couldn't find anything
directly about that.

But I found the larger conversation,
which was theology of animals and

biolog and, and eco theologians
and these sorts of things.

So a lot of it actually comes out of our

Rupert Isaacson: wives, basically.

Yeah,

Ben Connor: a lot of it.

So there's, there's a conversation strand
that's connected to process, philosophy

and process theology, which comes
out of Alfred North Whitehead's work.

And Charles Hartshorn work is the idea.

It's basically a different way of thinking
about how the world's put together.

That they're that you, you aren't just a
body, but you're a collection of actual

es that are all working together as sort
of a different structure to the world that

had them make some creative theological
moves to take creation more se seriously

so that we are in fact part of creation
and not set apart of it as a lot of the

inherited theology spoke, so that was
called process theology, and there's some

really creative work on embodiment and
bodies that comes out of process theology.

So that, that was one area that
got me thinking about that.

And the other was of course, disability.

Disability and disability studies.

Since people with.

Disabilities are often
cast as less than human.

It made people in disability
studies say were treated similarly

to animals, and then some theology
developed around that as well.

Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.

Ben Connor: But it's recent for me.

Rupert Isaacson: Were
you always Christian?

Were you always a believer?

Did you, did you reject it at some point?

Do you have your punk rock band days?

Like what, just quickly, what's
your, your bio, how did you evolve?

Ben Connor: Yeah.

Yeah.

I, I mean, I was the kid whose parents
made 'em go to church when I was young

and I'd sneak outta church and play
in the woods by church and show up

at the end of the church with leaves
in my hair and dirt on my knees and.

They say, where were you?

I was like, oh, I was at
the youth group or whatever.

When I had the chance to sort of make
more decisions that Christianity I was

experiencing wasn't very compelling to me.

And so I thought it's, it's, I would
just try to do what made me happy,

but that became very self-interested
and wasn't least satisfying either.

And then I finally met some people
who lived out their faith in, in

a way that I felt was authentic.

Rupert Isaacson: How old
were you at that point?

Ben Connor: I was 19.

So two things happened at that time.

Well, probably three things.

So I was studying architecture and
realized I didn't like architecture,

so I was having a vocational crisis.

My dad got cancer and was gonna
die really soon, so I took a

year off to take care of him.

He ended up only living
in another four months.

He had a massive brain tumor.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Ben Connor: I wanted to know more about
the Bible from somebody I felt like

really knew it and wasn't manipulating it.

And the person who most fit, that was a
quadriplegic man who I'd meet with once

a week, who would take me through the
Bible and, you know, I'd have to flip

him over and I'd have to put a cough drop
in his mouth and I'd put the drink up.

So this idea of service, the idea
that people with disabilities have

things to offer, tho, those things
were there at the beginning of my

owning my Christianity, I suppose.

And then I started volunteering for a
youth organization because I thought

if someone had told me this when I
was a kid in this way, I would've

probably been more interested.

So I was doing that.

And then for the disability part,
really that was with our son.

So this was, I.

I was getting ready to go to Princeton
Theological Seminary to do a doctorate

in basically mission acumen history
of religion, which that's not worth

continuing to talk about, but that
was my focus Right before I went, my

son had a seizure and we found out
he had had a stroke at birth and was

missing about a third of his brain.

So that taught me to teach him
differently and I found that

classroom wasn't the best place.

This is not un unlike your story.

Yeah.

Yours was the best place was
have him on the back of a horse.

Mine was, have him outside bouncing
on a trampoline or scooting outside

that he needed that in order to focus.

So he, he listened to Homer while he
was bouncing on a trampoline and I

would read things to him while he was.

Moving out outside.

So outside became really important
way for me to connect with my son.

We got him into mountain biking.

We'd spend a whole lot of time
outside and then that, that needed

to be more integrated with the faith.

That seemed to be, you go to
church, you go inside the church,

you do spiritual stuff, and then
you go out into the world where it

doesn't necessarily apply, you know?

And so I needed more integrated faith.

Rupert Isaacson: Where
did it go with your son?

Quickly?

What was the trajectory?

Ben Connor: Yeah, so, so the trajectory
for me, he won't, I'm sure he won't

mind me saying this, but he had he
had sensory integration issues, visual

tracking issues visual range issues.

What's that called?

Peripheral vision issues, right?

A lot of markers of being on the autism
spectrum, but never a clear diagnosis

because so many different things going on.

We homeschooled him because school was a
nightmare for him, but he really wanted

to go to high school with his friends.

So we got him to the point where he could,
he barely made it through high school.

At, at the end of it, he got in trouble
for some drugs because the drugs, he

used to self-medicate and sort of figure
out who he was because he had social

integration sort of challenges as well.

That was a big move for
him coming through that.

Actually when I, when I picked him
out from jail, I said, the first thing

you're gonna hear me say is God loves
you no matter what you do or say.

And I love you no matter what
you do or say, and we're gonna

get this through this together.

And the second thing I said
was not as, not as nice.

It was he sort of gave me some pushback
and I said, I could have left you to

be in the jail to be somebody else's
bitch, but for the next week, you're

gonna be mine and you're gonna get your
hair cut and do exactly what I say.

So yeah, I was dealing
with the tension myself.

Indeed.

But the good news is he, he worked
hard, had an aptitude for computers,

put himself through a computer coding
school, and now he's making more money

than I am and living in Grand Rapids
and is just a delightful, he is always

been a delightful, wonderful kid.

But now we relate on a different level
as he's an adult who did, did he ever

Rupert Isaacson: regrow that part of
his brain that had been lost or, no?

He is, he is made other connections.

Right.

The, the brain just made up for it.

Ben Connor: Yeah, he's, he's a Wow.

He's always been I'd say he's, he's.

My other kids wouldn't mind me saying
that Tommy's the smartest of my kids.

I think he's smarter than me.

As, as well in terms of his, he,
he just has a remarkable intellect.

He just schooling doesn't know what
to do with someone who Yeah, sure.

Who learns in nonlinear Well,

Rupert Isaacson: but also what you
did, of course, was you created

all that neuroplasticity by
getting 'em out in nature, moving,

Ben Connor: yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: BDNF, kinji
cells, all of that stuff, which,

Ben Connor: yeah, and yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

And in the process I learned about
universal design and learning without

knowing there was such a thing.

Got it.

So when I found this, this really, he

Rupert Isaacson: was really
your theological teacher.

Ben Connor: Absolutely.

He was my teacher for
theological education.

So if you take a course with me at
the seminary, it's gonna be nothing

like a typical academic course.

That's very

Rupert Isaacson: interesting.

Ben Connor: Yeah.

So for example in a youth ministry
class, I'm gonna have you.

Learn about adolescents from
social scientists and then

create artwork that expresses the
feeling of being an adolescent.

I'm gonna have you come into class
and I'm gonna put out games, and

I'm gonna have you start playing the
games and you're not gonna know why.

And then after half an hour, I'm
gonna tell you to switch games

with someone else, and then you're
gonna have to play that game.

And then I'm gonna cut you off
after 10 minutes and I'm gonna

say, okay, let's talk about this.

Who were the leaders who was
uncomfortable with this kind of exercise?

Who thought at the beginning,
Hey, this is a learning exercise.

What are we trying to learn?

Who just enjoyed it?

Who is competitive, who is collaborative?

So I wanted them to learn about their
own learning style so they can de.

Destigmatize other learning styles and
relativize their own learning styles.

And so universal design and learning
for me made a whole lot of sense.

And it's informed, the way that I teach,
it informs the way we run our center.

So we're gonna have a symposium on
disability and ministry the second

Saturday in July, all this stuff,
ministry website, we'll have a symposium.

And the first half hour of it is
an example of universal design

and learning and worship that's
led by people with disabilities.

Rupert Isaacson: We're gonna
have to do a second podcast.

Ben Connor: Okay.

Rupert Isaacson: So, okay.

We

Ben Connor: haven't even
gotten into the bodybuilding.

Rupert Isaacson: I know.

I'm trying to marshal my questions here.

We we're approaching the two hour mark and
we are definitely gonna have to All right.

Listeners.

I promise you we're
gonna get Ben Ben back.

In fact, maybe we'll get Ben and Melissa
back together as well because Melissa,

his wife who runs Renew Therapeutic
riding in Holland, Michigan is on his.

I've just done a, a fascinating
interview with her on, over on

equine Assisted World, but I think,
I think we need both of you guys on

to continue this conversation here.

Alright so here's another quick
question 'cause we're approaching

the two hour mark and you know, I
think we've blown everybody's brains.

So let's give a bit of a pause and
then we'll come back and we'll pick

this conversation up in a few weeks.

But with your permission,
why Christianity then?

Because we've got.

Plenty of other very good spiritual
ways of looking at the world.

You've got, you know,
Buddhism, it's a good one.

We've got Mystic Traditions within Islam.

We've got Mystic
Traditions within Judaism.

We've got, you know, lots of good stuff.

We, you know, shamanism
and, and so on and so on.

All of which was existing
before Christianity.

And so that, that's number one.

Why, why then put a label on it.

Why, why, why Christianity?

And then the second question is, 'cause
I could perhaps anticipate the answer

of why Christianity might be to say,
ah, but Rupert, it's because it's a,

a religion predicated upon compassion.

Although, of course Buddhism is too, but
hey, but Christianity does not practice

compassion in its mainstream, right?

So, and why not?

So, okay, so why Christianity?

And then why is the Christ
message the one message within

Christianity that's ignored?

Ben Connor: For sure.

Sure.

That's all fair.

That's all.

So on the one hand, it has to do with
who, who you interact with in terms

of how you receive the Christ message.

Doubt.

No, I, I, I spend most of my day
with a lot of people who I believe

are living faithful faithfully.

Rupert Isaacson: DD, d, but
you know what I'm saying.

Ben Connor: Absolutely.

I know what you're saying.

I, I accept the critique with open arms.

More question,

Rupert Isaacson: Chris.

Yeah.

But

Ben Connor: why, why Christianity?

So I would say fundamentally
then I'm responding to the call.

Oh, follow me by Jesus, who
I believe is still alive.

I don't think he's hanging up in
heaven watching cops waiting to come

back again when the world's destroyed.

I believe that Jesus is
actively working in the world.

Now.

There's obviously then why
is there still suffering?

Why is all this?

Because we live in a, in a created
world with contingencies a log can

be used to build a house or it can
fall on your head and kill you.

Water can be drunk to, to, to
nourish you or it can drown you.

Right.

And so we have, we have choice and
opportunities in that, but I'm compelled.

Rupert Isaacson: But the world
is older than Christianity.

Right.

And we've had, we've had Oh, absolutely.

Christlike figures, whether
it's the Buddha or Zorro Asta or

ones we've forgotten, you know?

Right.

Ben Connor: So it has

Rupert Isaacson: to be

Ben Connor: a personal response

Rupert Isaacson: then.

Right.

Ben Connor: And so it's

Rupert Isaacson: just, it's
just a, a, a, a heart feeling.

Ben Connor: Yeah.

It's a, it's a, it's a personal
response to, and that's good enough for

Rupert Isaacson: me.

Yeah,

Ben Connor: yeah, yeah.

And, and so, but, but my
Christianity doesn't take me out

of dialogue with other religions.

My Christianity is, it's, it's really,
it's a, I, Christianity is such a

compromise word, especially in United
States where it means, you know, you're

a Republican who voted for, for Trump,
who doesn't seem to, and again, this

is political, anybody who's listening,
but the legislation that's coming

out doesn't seem to care for the most
marginalized people who I imagine Jesus

would be spending most of the time with
as he would be pushing against empire.

And so that's the Christian

Rupert Isaacson: telling people to go
out and buy automatic rifles at Walmart.

Yeah,

Ben Connor: I imagine.

Not.

So, so, so then that's, that's
the Christ that I follow.

Christianity as a, as a
religion has its problems.

And since I'm a one who
follows Christ and have been.

In the US within a certain tradition, then
I speak out of that tradition either as I

critique it as one within the tradition.

Okay.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Okay.

And, okay.

Why is the Christ message the
one message within Christianity

in America that is marginalized?

The Christ message is
marginalized within Christianity.

Why?

Ben Connor: I think because Christianity
in large part is too enamored with power.

Rupert Isaacson: It just, yeah.

Just became another power thing.

Yeah,

Ben Connor: yeah.

Yeah.

Fair enough.

And it's, yeah, it's too costly.

It's too costly to follow Christ.

It's too costly to do, to do his Jesus.

It's a pain in the ass.

It's, yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Yeah.

Interestingly, as we were talking, Ileana,
my wife, my boss came in and slipped me

this little bit of paper, the new Pope.

Oh, I saw

Ben Connor: we had that white smoke.

I didn't know who it is.

Yeah.

Yes.

It's the American

Rupert Isaacson: dude.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

First Is that the first American pope?

I think it is, right?

Ben Connor: Yeah, I think so.

Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.

Know anything about him?

Ben Connor: Not at all.

Rupert Isaacson: No, not at, I,

Ben Connor: not at all.

I really really appreciate
the, the last pope.

You know, I think, I think he
was doing some important things.

Of course he was a controversial
pope because I think he was

trying to do the very things that
Jesus would call him to do, but

Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alright, so we can agree that if you
want to live in Christ, it might be

a good idea not to cut that forest
down and pave the entire planet.

I've really enjoyed
this conversation, Ben.

Can we, can we delve deeper?

I've got more questions than I think.

And actually, listeners, listeners,
listeners, especially American

listeners, please send us your questions.

Put, put them in the comments below.

Even if you hated this, like tell us why.

Don't just go but just, you know, en
engage us, engage the dialogue but

come up with a bunch of questions
because Ben's a rare breed and he's

turned us onto some other rare breeds.

And we're gonna continue
this conversation, so please

give us your questions.

Ben, how do people find you and
how do people find your books?

Ben Connor: Well, if you go to the
Center for Disability and Ministry,

if you just type in Center for
Disability and Ministry, I don't

believe there's another one then

Rupert Isaacson: spelt
in the American way.

ER?

Yes.

The wrong in the American
One, center for Disability.

Ben Connor: And Ministry.

Rupert Isaacson: And Ministry.

Ben Connor: Mm-hmm.

And it's at, if, if you have a hard
time finding it, you can find it on the

Western Theological Seminary website.

That's where I work.

Western Theological,

Rupert Isaacson: Western Theological

Seminary.

Ben Connor: Yep.

And all my contact information is
right there on the center website

as well as a link to our podcast.

Yep.

They can, they can contact me that way.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

And books, publications.

What, what, what should people look at
if they want to know about your work?

So that will be

Ben Connor: on the, that'll be on the,
that'll be on my faculty website as well.

But three books published at, at
this point, one called Practicing

Witness, which is the very thing we
were talking about that, that it's

less about what you say about your,
your Christian practice in the world.

The second book is called
Amplifying Our Witness.

That's about youth
ministry and disability.

So it's, right.

And that's the only book on youth
ministry and disability at this point.

Wow.

And then disabling mission,
enabling witness puts.

Mission studies in conversation with
disability studies to see what comes out.

The other side, two books
I'm working on right now.

I also edit a book series that's
co-branded between my center

and InterVarsity Press Academic.

So I have a book I'm doing with John
Swinton of Aberdeen called Missing

Voices in Theology, where we engage
people who use augmented speech or who

have lost their sort of platform because
of an onset disability or a diagnosis.

And we are setting up sort of why
does this happen and then we're

putting their voices in there.

Rupert Isaacson: John Swinton,
university of Aberdeen.

Ben Connor: Brilliant guy.

And then I'm doing a book with
Melissa Harmony with horses, a

Theology of Equine Assisted Services.

And I'm building on the work of
like, the Dorrs and what's your name?

You're right there.

Ray Hunt.

Yeah.

How do you forget the name?

Ray Hunt?

I don't know.

Yeah.

But that whole revolution in horsemanship
and the way they were talking about

harmony, how do we jive that with
Christian theology and how does that

inform the way you run a center?

And then I have a project I'm
doing on bodybuilding and theology.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

We haven't, we haven't
gotten to that one yet.

Yeah.

When you, when you meet
Ben, he's a big dude.

So there's, there's a whole
other conversation there which is

interesting to me because most people
use bodybuilding around narcissism.

And so it's very interesting to meet
someone who's into it, who's coming

from a whole other point of view.

But I think.

I'm just gonna leave that as a
little hook for you listeners

for the next conversation.

Okay.

This has been really educational
for me, so I appreciate it, Ben.

Will you come on again in a
few weeks and we can talk more?

Ben Connor: Absolutely.

I'd love to come on with Melissa.

That would be a lot of fun.

Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: let's do it.

Let's do it.

Thank you.

And then we'll, we'll try to get some of
these, these others on Victoria laws and

Ben Connor: the Reinst.

STRs.

Yeah.

Ron and Deb Reinst Straw
would be a great 'cause.

He is also involved with an organization
called a Rocha, A-R-O-C-H-A.

You can look up that online, but
that's a, that's a eco theology

sort of a organization as well.

Okay.

Okay.

Okay.

Rupert Isaacson: And I think, I know
lots of people within our sort of

horse boy world who are Christians
who are also looking for something.

I guess actually I
should be paying homage.

So actually I want to dedicate
this, I want to dedicate this

episode to my cousin Frank Taylor.

My cousin Frank Taylor
died a few years ago.

He was the man who really pioneered the
whole concept of agroforestry dry land,

agroforestry, if you've ever picked up
a Devil's Claw product for arthritis.

He was the guy that pioneered Devil's
Claw as a, as a viable commercial

product out of the deserts of Botswana.

He worked for many, many years with.

Marginalized hunter gatherer
communities who'd been displaced by

more aggressive cattle owning cultures
and basically enslaved by them.

And he helped them to plant wild gardens
of their wild plants that they had.

Sun Bushman who they, where they'd
always gathered these things medicinally.

And he helped them to find
the most drought resistant

phenotypes and then market those.

And he had a whole, and, and he
broke that international market open.

He died from a scorpion sting aged about
almost 90, about three or four years ago.

Inspiration.

Very Christian man, even
though he was hanging out very

much in that shamanic world.

And I remember when I first met
him as a young adult, I was 18,

19, and I had just hitchhiked.

Across Zimbabwe and Botswana.

And he picked me up and he said to me,
his first question when I got in the

truck with him was, so tell me, Rupert,
where are you in your spiritual odyssey?

And I didn't know what to tell him.

And then I said, well, actually,
I had a dream, not the, not so

long ago that I met the devil.

And the devil was playing the violin.

And when I heard this music, I felt this
great sense of sadness that I was losing

something, but I can't explain the dream.

What do you think?

And he said, oh yes.

Well,

they, I hates to leave,
lose a good teammate.

So, you know, you can
expect some resistance.

Yeah.

If you're, if you're looking
at other, other directions.

And he really mentored me.

Through a lot of my early work with the
son Bushman and that human rights work

that I did, and I always marveled at
the fact that he could have this really

sort of evangelical faith without, in
any way, trying to convert the people

that he worked with or four really.

And he lived his life totally in service
to nature in, in this interesting way.

So yeah, I think I'd like to
dedicate this episode to Frank Taylor

from Felt Products Research and
Development in Botswana who, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I guess I, I guess there have been
threads here that I just haven't seen.

Ben Connor: Mm-hmm.

Well, thanks.

Thank you.

Thanks for sharing that.

That means a lot.

Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for having

Ben Connor: me on.

It's always a, always
a fun to speak to you.

I, I want to hear you
talking more next time.

We have a conversation though, so,

Rupert Isaacson: People have
interviewed me, you know.

Yeah.

That, that's all out there.

But I mean, not with

Ben Connor: my questions though, right?

Rupert Isaacson: It's all about

Ben Connor: the

Rupert Isaacson: questions.

Ben Connor: Right.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Well, that's fine.

We, we'll trade questions there.

What we'll do on the next one is you,
you, you write down your questions.

I'll write down mine and
we'll have a question off.

Sounds good.

With Melissa as the as the moderator,
as the one who will actually

come out with the truth probably.

Oh, there you go.

Okay.

I, I, I, I'm honored.

Thank you so much, Ben, for coming on.

I'll see you in a few weeks with Melissa.

Sounds great.

Thanks for having me.

All right, my friend.

I hope you enjoyed today's
conversation as much as I did.

If you did, please help us to make more.

Please like, subscribe, tell
a friend, give us a thumbs up.

If you'd like to support us on Patreon,
please go to my website, rupertisakson.

com.

And if you'd like to find out about
our certification courses with.

autism, education, horsemanship,
everyday shamanism.

There's a whole range of cool stuff.

Putting a show together like
this is not an easy task.

If you'd like to support us, please
consider going to our Patreon page

and showing us some love there.

Even the smallest donation, it really
helps us to keep the good content coming.

So go to rupertisakson.

com and click on the Patreon link.

Not to mention our excellent merch.

Please go to our shop and check
out some of our really cool

rock and roll themed merch.

T shirts, hoodies, all that sort of thing.

rupertisatson.

com, it's all there.

I can't wait for our next guest
and also to meet you there.

In the meantime, remember, live free.

Ride free.