Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.

Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New
York Times bestselling author of

The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.

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So now let's jump in.

Welcome back to Live Free, ride Free.

I've got Adventurous Barbie here.

Stevie Della Hunt.

She does crazy shit.

Among these things is Organ
helping to organize and helping

people to prepare for a couple of
really extreme events that happen.

One in Patagonia and one in Mongolia.

The Gaucho Derby and the Mongolian Derby.

But she has a lot of
other strings to her bow.

It seems to be a story of resilience,
putting oneself in challenging positions

and why one might do that and why one
might help other people to do that.

So, buckle up 'cause
we're in for a good ride.

Welcome, Stevie.

Tell us who you are and what you do.

Stevie Delahunt: Hi, thank
you so much for having me.

I'm Stevie Della Hunt and you just
did a one lovely job explaining the

major part of what I enjoy doing.

I also happen to put shoes on
horses or, and trim their nails.

Trim their feet.

So I'm a farrier and I am
also a riding instructor for

beginner adults and, and kids.

Cool.

And I do endurance running
and riding as well.

So I'm addicted to long haul
excursions On foot or on horseback.

Rupert Isaacson: Why?

Why are you addicted to this?

Oh,

Stevie Delahunt: I think, you know, it's,
it's that type two fun addiction where

Rupert Isaacson: it's that
what type two, what addiction

Stevie Delahunt: Type two.

Fun.

Rupert Isaacson: What's Type two Fun.

Stevie Delahunt: So
type two fun in my mind.

There's type one fun where you're
on a rollercoaster, you're enjoying

it, and that's very obvious.

Type two fun is maybe you go on a
hiking and camping trip with friends

and you get caught in the rain and
at the time it doesn't seem fun.

It's stressful and you're cold and wet.

But the next day in the pub talking about
it, you guys are like, you're bonding

with your friends and you're talking
about how much fun it was to be out there.

That's type two fun.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so it's

Stevie Delahunt: the excursions where
you're in between that sort of, that

space of either trauma or triumph
and you end up triumphing over it.

And I love, I love that little phrase,
trauma or triumph because I feel like

when we put ourself up against new goals
or challenges, it can become a trauma

if we don't have the tools in place.

Or it can become a triumph.

And I think the type two fun is that
space when you triumph and type three

fun is where you, you ends up being
a trauma, like taking out the trash.

Maybe that's not a trauma, but taking
out the trash I say is type three fun.

It's not fun while you're
doing it and it's not fun

later when you look back on it.

Rupert Isaacson: That's that how, how
was the type three fun in that case.

If it's not fun at the
time and it's not fun,

Stevie Delahunt: it's more of a joke.

I think I started that with Work Schiller
when we were trying to define type two

fun and type three fun came up as well.

Rupert Isaacson: This reminds me
of a lyric from a joke band called

The Flight of the Concordes.

I dunno if you ever saw them.

They had a TV show where they were.

It's two guys from New Zealand and
they are musicians and they, the,

the, the, the conceit of the show is
that they are New Zealand's fifth.

Most popular band and they're
trying to make it in New York.

Of course they're not making it.

And they do all these funny songs
and there's one they call Business

Time, which is when he is gonna
make love to his wife 'cause it's

business time and it's on Wednesdays.

And the foreplay, they talk about the
part of the foreplay on this sort of

Barry White and they're brushing their
teeth and that's all part of the foreplay.

And then he goes and puts the recycling
out and he says that's not part of the

foreplay, but it's still very important
because foreplay is very important.

So that sounds like type three fun.

Yeah.

Who came up with these categories?

Stevie Delahunt: I, I don't know who came
up with like type one and type two fund,

but that's been around and in my head
and in my, my vocabulary for a long time.

But the type three, that was
just a, like a joking addition.

What I believe what I chatted to
Warwick Chiller on is podcast.

We might have talked about that, but

Rupert Isaacson: okay.

So, so what happens if it's just trauma?

What category does that go under?

Stevie Delahunt: Yeah, that's
probably gonna be type three fun.

Not fun while you're doing it.

And not fun when you look back on it.

And the fun

Rupert Isaacson: that you, but allows you
to have fun later 'cause you survived.

Stevie Delahunt: Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

I like keeping those things in the
categories of, there's, there's nothing

outside of this three types of fun, right?

'cause everything, I think a lot
of things in life are a choice.

You know, I love the phrase, if
you're not laughing, you're crying.

And I've tried to hold that dear
because there's some situations in

which it feels really difficult.

But if you just take a moment and
realize that you're the speck of dust

in the universe and your problems
are quite small, it can help give

perspective and you can see how
ridiculous our situations are every day.

So, that's, that's why I
like the categories of fun

being one, two, and three.

And there's nothing outside of that.

So,

Rupert Isaacson: so have you always
been drawn to testing yourself in

this way or was it a gradual process?

Stevie Delahunt: I think for
me it was a gradual process.

I'm a normal human being with a normal,
well an probably an abnormal brain,

but still I'm drawn to comfort and
not always wanting to go out when it's

raining or you would rather sit on the
couch and watch Netflix sort of person.

So I'm not any braver or
there's no nothing in me that's

different from anyone else.

And I think it took some time to realize
the rewards that were to be had if I went

out and tested myself and pushed myself.

I started running half
marathons and that was.

I think I really inherited
that from my parents.

They were both very physically active
and kind of wondered why my dad was

drawn to being a marathon runner.

And so I started running half
marathons and then like that feeling

of accomplishment of something I, I
never thought I could run 13 miles

and that's, and one day I was able to
do it and I got addicted to that and

eventually I ended up doing a 50 k.

And what was crazy for that is that in
my training for a 50 k, something that I

once thought, that 13 mile, half marathon
mark that I thought was impossible,

that was like a training run for me
when I started going ultra distances.

And that was just such an interesting
progression to realize that those

benchmarks that you thought were once
impossible are actually a part of,

can become a part of your routine.

It's a little bit like when you hear
about those marathon runners there's like

a comedian, a British comedian that went
and just started doing a marathon a day.

And like those, those
benchmarks are possible.

And like to some people, the idea of
just doing one marathon is, it's a lot.

I mean, even now, right now I probably,
I haven't been training, I would feel

like a lot to give to a marathon.

I would have to walk a bit of it for sure.

And it's just interesting like how
your perspective can shift when

you start shifting your, yeah.

When you start shifting your life.

Rupert Isaacson: And talk
to me about ultra distances.

An ultra distance, so basically 50 K is
two marathons in a row, more or less.

Stevie Delahunt: Actually 50 K is,
it's less so it's, it's the short, it's

the shortest ultra distance there is.

So it's about 31 miles.

Rupert Isaacson: I love that.

It's the shortest ultra distance there is.

Stevie Delahunt: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: So that's like your
baby ultra distance, like Oh, bless you.

Yeah, yeah.

You're only running 50 k.

Mm-hmm.

When you run 50 k, do you run the whole
way or do you run, walk, run, walk?

Stevie Delahunt: It depends on elevation.

So the race that I did had 9,000 feet.

So what is that?

Like 3000 meters of elevation
gain in the first five miles.

So it's quite a lot.

And some of those climbs you end up
walking and it's just advantageous.

You can actually walk
faster than you jog uphill.

So that one, at the beginning I did
do some walking, but I tried to, I was

trying to be a sub six hour time on
my 50 K, and so I was trying to run

and I had not trained well enough.

I'd only done 18 miles in preparation.

Hadn't had the time in my
life to get enough running in.

Like I should have probably done
a marathon distance before in

training and I hadn't been able to.

And so the last six miles
were really, really difficult.

I was jogging probably slower
than grandma's can walk, but I was

jogging and I did come in at 5 59, so

Rupert Isaacson: it's
not good for your body.

Stevie Delahunt: I, you know, there's so
many people out there, like Courtney Dewal

is a pretty famous ultra runner, and she's
able to do distances of like 240 miles.

Like that's becoming a normal
distance to race for ultras.

Like the Moab two 40 they're
bringing in a 250 mile race.

There's, there's even
longer distances, I think a

Rupert Isaacson: good for your body.

I mean, I believe's possible.

They

Stevie Delahunt: seem to be, I, I
think it's probably no more damaging

than sitting on a couch all day.

Like they're just different
health risks, right?

Like it might, how

Rupert Isaacson: old is, is Courtney?

Stevie Delahunt: I believe
she's in her forties now.

Rupert Isaacson: Possibly.

I one just can't help but one, I mean, I
do, I do absolutely accept that there are

certain body types and personality types
that, that might suit, but I'm skeptical.

But help me with this, that setting
up those things as goals for your

average human being might not
invite people into potential injury

that they maybe don't need to.

Or am I looking at it wrongly?

Stevie Delahunt: You know, it's
an interesting topic to bring

up because I do endurance horse
racing so ultra running for horses.

And it's a subject I think a lot
about as like the breakdown in the

wear and tear on their bodies, the
breakdown in wear and tear on mine.

But I look back to thinking about how I
would think about doing a half marathon.

When I first started, I
thought that was impossible.

And from the perspective of a person
who had never run any distance, I

would look out and be like, that
can't, that can't be possible.

You can't be healthy running
marathons all the time, say.

And same with there's a lot of horse
people that might look and say, you can't

ride a horse a hundred miles in 24 hours.

Well, yes, that's true.

If, and that seems like a very valid
perspective when you have a horse

that lives in a stall all day, doesn't
exercise very much, and is just

going out for an hour in the arena
and is sweaty and and out breath

after doing an hour in the arena.

So as my perspective has shifted,
like once I started completing

half marathons, it became normal.

It became my every day felt
normal to just go run five miles.

No big deal.

Doesn't feel like wear and tear because
I have the tools in my body, the muscles

built up over time to support that.

It'd be like if we had to run
three miles every day to get water.

Like, you know, maybe, maybe you'd have
to travel to get water back in the day.

You wouldn't be running maybe,
but I'm, I'm just saying it's,

our bodies are very adaptable

Rupert Isaacson: over time.

I absolutely, I absolutely agree.

And, and, but the reason I'm, I'm, I'm
harping on this I think sort of early

in the podcast, is I think what gets
tricky is we live in a society where

expectations are set for us through
culture, social media, and so on.

Let's say for example, we're talking about
horses doing, you know, an endurance race.

There are definitely types of horse
that are selectively bred, partly by

nature and partly by man for that.

So there's, it's no surprise, for
example, that your average endurance

horses in Arabian or something close
to it because the, and it's no surprise

that the fastest runners in the
world come out of the Horn of Africa

and are of a certain genetic type.

And these horses are of
a certain genetic type.

I don't think I'm of that genetic type.

So I think that for me to run that
distance, as much as I loved running.

Before I smashed up my legs over cross
country fences now it's too painful

'cause I've got metal rods in my legs.

But when I did run a lot I enjoyed it.

I loved it.

I definitely hit the spiritual side
of it, but I never thought deep

down that I was a marathon runner.

And I remember having people
kind of peer pressure me to it.

I'm like, dude, I don't think that's me.

That might be that person over there
who's got a very different body type

to me totally support them doing it.

Me with my knees, my ankles.

Mm.

I could see where and tear are
that I can feel it happening.

So I'm gonna stay sort of where I
am, but I maybe will push myself

and find my extremes in other ways.

What I worry about with things like a
ultra distance or that sort of thing,

being, you know, and, and people will
sort of see that go, I want to do

that and I'm gonna make that my goal.

And they might or might not be physically,
let alone emotionally, but probably more

physically that type then if they injure
themselves or fail, is that, you know.

Or can we look at it in a more
measured way and saying for a certain

type of physical type, this ultra
distance actually might be a thing,

but it's going to be a small minority
of people, and that's all right.

You know?

Do you know what I'm saying?

Stevie Delahunt: Yeah.

Yeah.

I absolutely do.

I don't think I'm, like,
I'm not built to run fast.

Mm-hmm.

At all.

And I think it's, I think if
you intuitively, like you were

saying intuitively, you felt
you were not a marathon runner.

I think that's your answer right there.

Like, I think that the people that are
drawn, the people that are drawn to wanna

run a hundred miles, you've gotta feel
it in your bones that you can do that.

And I think I think it's possible you'll
have doubts, but that's a different thing.

Because I, I would imagine that when
you were a runner, if someone said,

you wanna sign up for this a hundred
mile race, you would've been like, no.

Like, you enjoy running
in a different way, right?

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

I watched it from the pub.

Yeah, absolutely.

Stevie Delahunt: So I
think, I think you're right.

Like I think but it's just like some
people, that's why we are drawn to

different jobs in the world too.

Mm-hmm.

And you know, it in your bones.

And I think a distance, anything over 50
k really for running you're not really

gonna attempt to do it unless you feel
it, like you feel drawn to do that.

And I think you're right, there's
a million ways to push yourself.

And it doesn't have to be running, but,

Rupert Isaacson: okay.

So, so let's talk about pushing
yourself because we are, we

are beginning to live in a.

In an, in an era where stress
is a dirty word, and I've often

wondered, is all stress bad?

Personally, I don't think it is.

In fact, your chances of getting
through, you know, several decades on

planet earth without stress are zero.

Yeah.

And so if stress was by its very
nature negative, then life would,

by its very nature, be negative
because life involves stress.

I believe in resilience and like you say,
you, you are type two fun where you come

through a testing situation, you're full
of endorphins, you're glad you did it.

You're stronger.

You are also a bit
relieved that it's over.

And you absolutely want to have,
you know, feed up on the couch

for a while before the next one.

But if you go back to a
hunter gatherer roots, this is

demanded of us all the time.

And not, of course, not just physical
endeavor, but mental and emotional.

So I think I'm with you that we,
we need to be pushed or we dive

boredom and boredom and loneliness,
which I think go hand in hand.

I feel that they're sort of siblings
really, or cousins seems to be

the ill of our age, or one of them
at least within Western society.

Did you get drawn to push yourself and
then to help others push themselves

if they want to because of a reaction
to boredom or because of a instinctive

feel, feeling that you needed to be
tested or somewhere in between them both.

Talk to me a bit about your
childhood and how you grew up.

Was there a lot of testing and
opportunities for resilience?

Like how did you come into it that way?

And when people are coming to
you, inevitably there's a sort

of therapeutic angle to this.

Who are the people that
come to you and why?

You know, so, so if you could put that
picture together for us, I'd be, yeah.

Curious.

Stevie Delahunt: I had a very
privileged only child upbringing.

And so I can't, I've often wondered like
we all carry some sort of traumas with

us and I've had a pretty good childhood.

Had all the opportunities in the world,
loving parents that supported me.

Where was that?

Where

Rupert Isaacson: did you grow up?

Stevie Delahunt: I grew up I
was born in Germany, but I moved

into the states when I was two.

So essentially grew up in Michigan,
so the Midwest of the United States.

Had good old Midwestern upbringing, went
to Michigan State University college, and

that was kind of when I started running.

But

Rupert Isaacson: what did
you study out of interest?

Stevie Delahunt: Yeah.

I was I had dual major as
French and political science.

And I had a specialization in
democratization in Eastern Europe.

Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: well that was sort
of going on at the time, I presume.

Yeah.

To some,

Stevie Delahunt: yeah.

And graduated from
Michigan State University.

That changed my mind, decided I didn't
wanna, I was supposed to go to law school.

I was teaching the lsat at the time
because I was very good at taking tests.

I was supposed to go to Georgetown Law
School changed my mind and ended up at the

French Pastry School of Chicago instead.

And yeah, and made ended up having
a business in Chicago doing wedding

cakes for quite a few years.

And then I was drawn back into horses
and it was kind of a big transition.

So, back into

Rupert Isaacson: horses.

Had you grown up with horses?

Stevie Delahunt: I had
grown up with horses.

I was on the Michigan State
Equestrian team in college, so

horses followed me through college.

I

Rupert Isaacson: did your parents ride?

Stevie Delahunt: My mom had as a kid.

But they were not big horse people.

They became big horse people when
I was drawn to it as a child.

But

Rupert Isaacson: What kind of
riding did you do growing up?

Stevie Delahunt: I did pretty much
everything started in western disciplines

and went into English, and eventually
after college, went into the hunter

jumper world and started fox hunting.

Rupert Isaacson: Where did you,

Stevie Delahunt: sorry, what was that?

Rupert Isaacson: Where did you fox hunt?

Stevie Delahunt: Chagrin valley hunt
in Ohio when I was living there.

I,

Rupert Isaacson: I, I know of that one.

Yep.

Okay.

It was

Stevie Delahunt: a, it is very good hunt.

Shout out to Solange Ellis, who
Drew drew me into fox hunting there.

And yeah, kind of went through all
the different disciplines, sort of

looking, looking for something that
exemplified the relationship between

human and horse, like that connection.

Mm-hmm.

I always found it really interesting.

I showed horses in the western world
for quite a while, and I found that

it, it was such a weird world in that
everyone had been drawn to horses

because they loved them and they
wanted the connection to start with.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Stevie Delahunt: But it got sort of
bastardized into a whole different

element of just wanting to win.

It's very, it's very strange
how we can change relationships

when money's involved.

And I was, I was kind of, Evan can

Rupert Isaacson: become hell
very easily in the human psyche.

Yes.

Stevie Delahunt: Yeah.

So quickly and.

So I, I have nothing against
showing horses in different ways.

It's all about how and why
you're doing it, but it wasn't,

it wasn't the space for me.

So I ended up traveling through lots
of dis different disciplines, including

like try and polo, which I'm shit at.

And every, everything in between.

Eventually though I found endurance, but
I found that through the Mongol Derby I

was reading an article in Outside Magazine
and they had published a guy named Will

who I, now I'm friends with, published
an article about the Mongol Derby.

And instantly I just knew,
like I felt this big draw.

I had always wanted to go to Mongolia.

I'd known about it as a kid for, as
one of the world's best horse people.

Like read that somewhere else.

And so when I saw that this race took
place in Mongolia through the step, I

was instantly obsessed with the idea.

And so it was extremely expensive for me.

I was a bartender at the time.

I had given up my cake business
and moved to the Ohio area.

And the idea of paying that much
money to do something felt like a lot.

So I was like, if I'm gonna do
this, I'm gonna do it right.

And I began training and
fox hunting every day.

'cause I didn't know the
endurance world existed.

I didn't know you could go and ride 50
to a hundred miles on a horse in a day.

So fox hunting seemed
like a good way to prep.

It's a lot of wild riding through
open terrain, and I knew that's what

I'd be doing on the Mongol Derby.

And additionally, I felt like I needed
to be really fit to do a good job.

So I started running, and then I started
getting into the idea of ultra distances.

And so it was the Mongol Derby itself
was the catalyst for which I started

to change my life and started to get
addicted to that, that type two fun

feeling and really realized I was coming
back to myself through that, like to

my more wild and free self outside
of the paradigms of normal society.

I was definitely had been
looking for something.

Before we started this podcast
recording, we talked briefly about

what I do, and I mentioned to you that
I felt people who go to do the Mongol

Gouger derbies are on a spiritual
journey, whether they know it or not.

And I, I certainly was on one and
didn't realize it, and I was looking,

I was looking to find myself, but also
looking to step outside of the societal

norms that I didn't feel were right.

Things like the relationship
with horses in the land.

And that's what I found out there.

When I did the Mongol Derby, I saw
people living in touch with the land.

I saw a community of people from around
the world that also felt the same.

So all the other contestants
that came to ride the gouge,

or sorry, the Mongol Derby.

We're all in the same boat of,
there was just something off about

their world and the relationship
with horses within their world.

And I think that's what draws people

Rupert Isaacson: on the
relationship with nature in general.

Stevie Delahunt: Nature in
general, but also horses.

I think a lot of the people that
I now train for Mongol and Gaucho

derbies, they're really open to the
spiritual side of being with horses.

Like they, they also are pushing
up against the idea of like

winning those ribbons and the
money that's involved in horses.

They're, they're looking for
the connection and, and for

purpose with horses again.

If that makes sense.

Rupert Isaacson: And yet the,
and yet the Derby is a derby.

It's still a race.

Stevie Delahunt: It's still a race, yeah.

It's still a race.

Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: How does the fact that
it's still a race not open the way to

the human ego and get in the way of that
spiritual relationship with the horse?

Stevie Delahunt: You know,
I think, I think it does.

I've seen lots of different
derby stories play out.

And I think oftentimes the people
that are up in the front of the

derby, there's sometimes ego
involved, but other times there's not.

I've seen some really amazing wins.

There's south African.

Why have there been

Rupert Isaacson: a race?

Why not just make it a journey?

Stevie Delahunt: Yeah, that's
a really good question.

Rupert Isaacson: Request of some sort,

Stevie Delahunt: and I think
it is shied away from, and.

The idea of winning is shied away
from, in a way, there's no big winnings

if you win, it's just accolades.

Like you, yes, you were first.

And this actually gets talked a lot
about in endurance riding for A ERC,

American Endurance Ride Conference which
runs e endurance horse racing in the

US and they talked often it's called
their motto is to finish, is to win.

And a lot of people say, well,
if it's all about finishing, then

why are contestants placed, right?

Like, if it's all about going out and
doing this ride and I think it's really

supposed to be you against the time
clock, not you, against other contestants.

Rupert Isaacson: Why does
that need to be an against?

What do you think is important
about the against what, what,

what quality does that bring out?

Stevie Delahunt: Yeah, I think it's good
to have that stress, as you were saying,

like putting a stress, a time stress.

Would I have loved to ride the Mongol
Derby and had all the time in the world?

Absolutely.

So we could spend time with the
families, could have had a whole

different experience, but that would've
been me just going on vacation.

Would it, I think,

Rupert Isaacson: or would it have been
a a, a quest and an inquiry does, so

I guess what I'm digging for is I
think obviously certain people are

con competitive by nature and that
com, com a competitive nature is.

In our DNA more in certain people
than others, perhaps because of our

hunting gatherer, you know, nature
that therefore to bring down the big

kill is a necessary thing sometimes.

And to have the or to jackpot the big, you
know, find of natural plants or whatever,

you know, it, that desire to get the big
dopamine boom is in us for, you know,

good reasons that nature has put in there.

Like anything.

But you know, when you say something
like, what if I'd just done that ride

with all the time in the world, I would've
been on vacation, I think No, no, no.

Not at all.

Not necessarily, but in your mind, yes.

Why?

Stevie Delahunt: Yeah.

That's a, it's a good question, and
actually I'll circle around to that.

But I was thinking about how my
competitive nature has changed over time.

And I, I would say when I went and
did the Mongol Derby, I originally

felt that I wanted to try to win it.

And as I started training for it, I
realized I just wanted to survive it.

That

Rupert Isaacson: was

Stevie Delahunt: that.

Rupert Isaacson: How long ago was that?

Stevie Delahunt: That was 2014,
so that was like 11 years ago.

Rupert Isaacson: So you've been
doing these things for about

11 years out there in Mongolia?

Stevie Delahunt: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: So.

Stevie Delahunt: Yep.

And when I went out there, I wanted
to, I thought I wanted to win it.

And then as I started training,
that was like, this was part

of my spiritual journey.

I did start asking myself like,
why do I wanna win things?

Why do I have to go about them
in, in a way like to be the best?

And I realized it's part of this
quest of like external validation

that a lot of us go through.

I think there's a lot of competition
is driven by, if I just win this,

then my dad will approve of me.

Or if I just win, self esteem

Rupert Isaacson: is right up that hill.

Yeah, yeah,

Stevie Delahunt: yeah, exactly.

So I started to realize that I was looking
to be enough in things outside of me.

And of course if you place
value in things outside of you,

they can always be taken away.

And I kind of started to realize
that in my training for the derby.

And then I was like, I just really wanna
complete this, like have this experience.

So it changed from I wanna win this
to, I wanna have this experience and to

see what I'm made of and push myself.

And it kind of began to shift the goal
from outside of myself, like winning to

who am I gonna be through this experience?

And that became an internal quest.

And when, when your goals are internal
rather than on an external valida

validation, it's something that can't
be taken away, if that makes sense.

I don't know if I'm doing that justice,
but I started to notice that shift

in finding, finding myself as enough.

No matter what the outcome was.

And there's something I tell a lot of
riders that come to compete, I always

ask them why they're doing the derby.

Like what are they, I'm, I'm searching to
see what their external validation or if

they're looking for external validation.

I always remind them that their
friends don't care about how they do.

They only care about how
they feel about how they do.

So, you know, there's so many people
that say, I have to win for my family.

I have to do this.

No, your family doesn't
care if you, you win.

They, they care if you're
happy about how you did.

And that's, that's a shift we talk about.

Rupert Isaacson: There were two
things which I'd, I'd like, I

want to circle back to this.

There's two things I'd like to ask about
why cakes and talk to me about boredom.

Okay.

So why cakes first?

Stevie Delahunt: Cakes I really enjoy
baking and I love the chemistry of baking.

It's just a very strict science
project every time you bake.

And that was probably like my least
favorite part of it was the baking itself.

I love the cake decorating.

And I think it's that people
pleasing element of I love creating

something for other people.

And seeing the joy when they
consume or get to look at such

beautiful, right, but heart.

Right.

But you

Rupert Isaacson: could, there are
many things that you could do that

are not a cake, that are white cakes.

Stevie Delahunt: I don't know, I guess
it just really ended up, I think it was

something, one of those things where
I was always good at baking and so I

always got that validation for baking.

And you just start to associate, just like
if you start drawing and everyone tells

you you're a good draw, you pursue that.

Rupert Isaacson: So strict rules,

easily perceived clear
structures, external validation.

These drove you for a while, right?

Stevie Delahunt: They did, yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

I think honestly, I mean, they drive all
of us, so it's, you know, it's, it's,

one comes by these things honestly.

And it's interesting that one one
might find it through cakes and

riding horses across Mongolia.

You know, it, it, it's, it's so
random how it can come about.

It is for somebody else,
it's something else.

But both involve a sort
of certain suspense.

So, you know, you put the cake in
the oven, is it gonna come out right?

Is it gonna be good?

Is it gonna fulfill expectations?

I mean, even when we're baking bread
at home, one always has that kind of, I

hope it, you know, it's the same feeling
that I think potters have when they

put the thing in the kiln and they know
it, it can implode and it might have

to start again, or it might be amazing.

And then if it causes joy, I think
there's something celebratory

around cakes, isn't there?

You know, that it's sort
of a big dopamine hit.

It's like a big win.

It's like a, everybody loves a cake
and if you show up with a good cake,

it's like you're the, you're the hero.

You know?

Stevie Delahunt: Well, let me tell you,
transporting wedding cakes and making

sure that you don't drop that thing right
before the wedding because that is true.

Real stress.

So, so what you've

Rupert Isaacson: got to create
is the wedding cake race across

Mongolia there, where you've got
to transport a wedding cake on your

horse through challenging terrain over
two weeks and arrive with your cake.

Not only intact, but
better than it was somehow.

Or

Stevie Delahunt: the that's,
I would rather run 240 miles

because there's no way that that
cake race wouldn't incite trauma.

Like that would be type three fun for me.

There's no triumph in that for me.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so
talk to me also about boredom.

I am a great believer that most
of the ills that beset us with

mental health, myself included I.

Are largely brought about by boredom.

And what I mean by that is genetically
we are supposed to be in more or

less constant movement out in nature
with a series of skills that make the

finding of food sufficiently efficient.

That we also have time for culture.

There is quality of life in
the hunter gatherer context.

But at the same time, if we're not
constantly engaged in series of tasks

that are basically problems to fix,
tracking hunting, identifying wild plants,

gathering them medicinal, let alone before
we go into the spiritual realm, these

are all problems to constantly solve.

And when you, when you're out hunting,
other things are hunting you, you know,

you gotta dodge them and weather changes,
and now everything has to shift again.

And when you are gathering wild
foods, things are hunting you and

you've got to be aware of that.

And you're also maybe trapping a little
bit and looking for what are those

tracks over there and what are those
tracks over there that you might then

go and report back to the hunters?

Oh, and then you've gotta climb
into the tree to shake down the nuts

and it's very physical, but there's
also poisonous snakes in that tree

and so on and so on and so on.

And we are not supposed to freak out
about this because we're supposed to

understand our environment and deal with
its dangers in a way that's competent.

So only very occasionally is
there something like, oh shit.

Most of the time it's, it's
handleable, but we're still

supposed to be tested in that way.

And if we're not and we're not doing it
in nature, our organism is not happy.

And does that manifest as boredom?

And so if one grows up in suburban
London or suburban Michigan, do

we suffer from chronic boredom?

And almost the more comfortable the

family culture, the more
of a danger for this?

There is.

Absolutely.

Is.

Is, is that something that, are you
actually a sort of a purveyor of

the cure for boredom in a way?

Stevie Delahunt: Yeah, I definitely
would say I, boredom doesn't sit well

with me and I can't remember a time in
which I was bored, which is probably

'cause I would rather go running.

I can be

Rupert Isaacson: very boring.

I, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll,
I'll, I can rise to that challenge.

Yeah.

Stevie Delahunt: I'm not bored yet at all.

No.

I think I think.

Evading boredom.

Like you said, our our minds are a busy
creature and they want us to keep moving

or our mind wants us to keep moving.

And yeah, that's where so
much creativity comes out of

boredom, like to evade boredom.

So I will take time away from screens,
away from stimulus when I, when I

wanna create something like writing,
like if I just sit for a little bit,

almost immediately writing things
that I wanna write come up for me.

And so they say boredom's a good thing,
but I kind of, I, I don't agree with that.

I think it's a good

Rupert Isaacson: thing if
it doesn't last very long.

Yes,

Stevie Delahunt: exactly.

That's what I was gonna say.

Finds

Rupert Isaacson: something to do.

Yeah.

Stevie Delahunt: Yes.

And that's, that's exactly it.

Like immediately I'm, I'm always
finding something to evade, boredom and

Rupert Isaacson: okay.

What's the, what, is there a,
a relationship do you think,

between boredom and loneliness?

And if so, what is it?

Stevie Delahunt: Maybe I would say
the relationship between boredom and

loneliness is if you really are bored,
if you really are sitting there and

nothing comes to you, like you're,
you can't find a way to entertain

yourself, I think you've lost a
sense of wonder about the world.

I think that's often why I'm not bored is
that I am so amazed all the time by the

little things like flowers blow my mind.

Like, just like the beauty in
the world is always, is always

there if you're looking for it.

And so having a sense of wonder is
really kind of my elixir to boredom.

And I think if you don't hold that,

and I keep, I don't wanna keep
saying the same sentence, but

that sense of wonder really is a
connection to QE or life force.

And when you can hold that
connection to life force, I

think things are drawn to you.

I've found that all my best relationships
with sentient, so horses, people, they've

all come to me in times where I feel
really connected to that sense of wonder.

And, and so I think that if you've
lost that, you've also lost your

connection to yourself, to others.

So yes, loneliness is, is a
lack of feeling of connection.

Rupert Isaacson: Does, does boredom
force you to seek community?

Stevie Delahunt: I think so.

I think it would, I think something's
really lost if you're bored and

you're not seeking to fix it.

Rupert Isaacson: You know, when you're
talking about a sense of wonder, the

word that comes up for me is, or a WE

Stevie Delahunt: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: As opposed to iron ore,
ori or the, or with which one might.

Do a rowboat.

Yeah.

So, or, and it's, as you probably
know, it's a burgeoning field

in mental health and psychology.

And it seems to come back to nature.

So you are drawn to, you know, Mongolia,
I've been in Mongolia and it's, you know,

an intact ecosystem on a large scale.

So one is awed by it.

You, you, you do the
gaucho derby and Patagonia.

I have not been down there,
but I can absolutely see

how one would be awed by it.

And just while you were
talking there, I was on Dr.

Google I thought, oh, that
sounds like awe to me.

And so in Europe, psychology, the
diminished focus on the self or being

in the presence of big nature, things
that are bigger than you in this way,

increased pro-social relationality.

See, the idea is it brings you
together greater social integration.

Shit.

It's a big place.

We kind of all better fucking
be on the same side and a

heightened sense of meaning.

And then immediately underneath that
comes five additional appraisals.

Account for variation in the
hedonic tone of all experiences.

Hedonic that must be sensory, right?

Sensory, emotional.

Threat.

So there's that thing of stress.

Again, beauty, exceptional ability.

Can I get up that hill, cross that
river virtue, that's interesting.

Not virtue in the my good person
or a bad person, but the virtue

of being able to get out there and
deal with it, I guess, and this is

interesting, and the supernatural,

how interesting.

And then I looked at how does
it all affect your health?

Says elevated, elevated vagal tone.

So that's basically oxytocin, right?

As you create oxytocin in your gut,
which you absolutely would do, say

riding the horse across there with
all that hip rocking, all your organs

that your vagus nerve would touch,
would produce oxytocin together.

So then it would hit your
brain in a sort of join army.

So elevated vagal tone, reduced
sympathetic arousal, so not freaking

out, increased oxytocin release.

There we go.

We talked about that.

And reduced inflammation.

And what's interesting about
reduced inflammation is that's

actually a cortisol response.

And cortisol and oxytocin are often
regarded as absolute opposites.

Like one is bliss and happiness, one
is stress, cortisol is stress, oxytocin

is bliss and communication, happiness.

But of course, if I'm.

I, I grew up fox hunting too.

So if I'm heading in at a
big fence going, oh shit.

Oh shit.

But a part of me is like
going, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because it's kind of within
my comfort zone, but,

and I absolutely know what can happen.

I'm in that kind of interplay between
ooh shit and Yeah, yeah, yeah.

If it, if the fence is too big,
then I'm like definitely an oh shit.

And maybe I shouldn't be doing it.

And if it's too small,
I haven't got enough.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

And there seems to be a need in the
human to be able to sort of run at that

buffalo and tracker spear and know that
it might turn around and have a go at you.

Stevie Delahunt: It's
either trauma or triumph.

There's actually a Japanese word,
and I wish I had written it down

before, or like looked it up and
written it down, but there's a

Japanese word for attempting something
in which you have a 50 50 chance.

I think it might even be 60
40, like 60% chance of failure

and 40% chance of success.

And I feel that you should be doing
something on a grand scale every year.

That challenges that, like that
puts you in a space where you

have a 60% chance of failure.

I think.

I think it is that, like that
it's supposed to be the absolutely

chance of failure is higher.

Rupert Isaacson: I could go, you
know, I could actually take myself

to Mongolia in exactly that.

I remember riding up into the mountains
in Siberia, up by cobs in the very

north, looking for the reindeer
people for a particular shaman who I.

Would hopefully heal my son.

And knowing that this would only
work if the river that we had to

cross was not up from recent rains
because I only had a certain amount

of bacon, dried bacon in my saddlebag.

'cause that was the only protein
my autistic son would eat.

And I had a certain number of days
packed, but I knew if I fell out of

that and if I lost set several days
at the river, okay, that would be it.

Then assuming we got across that
river, then let's say we got up

into the mountains where they are.

Well, we had to hope that they were
in the camps that we were hoping they

would be in because they might have
been a couple of days further in.

And then if that were to happen and
they were in the camps that they

were, and then we had to hope that
the shaman would actually think,

well, this is something I can handle.

Because I'd been in situations,
for example, in the Kalahari with

the sun, with the Bushman there,
where with healers, where they had

sometimes said, actually, no, sorry,
this is something I, I can't handle,

or I can't handle it by myself.

I need to get a co healer to come help me.

And that co healer lives two days away.

So let's say the river had come up
and they'd not been at the camp,

and then the heer had said that that
would've been a whole other week and

I wouldn't have been able to make it.

And I remember that feeling of.

I was so stressed that this massive
cold sore burst out on my lower lip.

Oh man.

Like my entire lip just like erupted.

And so I was sort of dealing
with the stress and dealing with

this pain and dealing with this.

And also, we are in completely
wild country and we know

doing eight hours a day, it's

Stevie Delahunt: wild up there.

I've been up to see the reindeer
people as well, and I couldn't

believe how remote it was.

Rupert Isaacson: It's,
it's, it's, it's bananas.

And now, now do it with a
5-year-old autistic kid in,

in the saddle in front of you.

I hope you enjoyed today's
conversation as much as I did.

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I can't wait for our next guest
and also to meet you there.

In the meantime, remember, live free.

Ride free.

And I remember there's this one part
where I was feeling so stressed and

I was having a little bit of a pity
party with myself and I was like,

hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on.

I heard myself doing that and I was like,
Rupert, you are in Mongolia with your kid

and you are riding up a mountain

looking for a shaman.

You lucky bastard, if I hear one more
little whiny, bitchy word out of you,

I'm going to come out of my own body and
slap me around because this is absurd.

You are having the
adventure of a lifetime.

Be grateful.

And I think what was so interesting
for me in that situation was it

was one of the first within autism.

Where I really got gratitude.

I was like, damn, you're right.

You're right.

And there was this, again, back to awe.

It's like I looked around, I
allowed myself to look around.

I was like, I'm in these mountains
in Siberia, this is incredible.

And I'm body to body, heart
to heart with my child.

And in the event it did actually work out.

But even when we found the salmon,
we still had to hope that when we

got down and we had to cross that
river again, again, it hadn't come

up because the bacon would've run out
and that would've been a big problem.

Lack of protein.

But fortunately it didn't.

You go ahead.

Sorry.

And then I'm gonna ask, oh,

Stevie Delahunt: sorry.

I was gonna say, I love that you
articulated such a big tool that I

talk about all the time with riders,
especially in the place of fear, is

like having that moment of gratitude.

There's always space for gratitude.

And like, I, I'm always
using this with myself too.

Like, it's silly things.

Like you're like, oh, I have to get
on this other flight, like flying

home from Argentina, I was tired.

And I'm like, wait a second.

I get to be one of the privileged
people that gets on a flight

like I'm flying through the air.

Like, how, how insane.

Right?

And you're not, you're
the airplane not going

Rupert Isaacson: to some
business meeting in Queens.

You're just effing.

Patagonia.

Stevie Delahunt: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Something cool to
somewhere else to do something cool.

Yeah.

Stevie Delahunt: Is it, and yeah, exactly.

And I, I'm always catching, there's
some, a friend of mine had said,

wouldn't it be cool if I had a brain
that allowed me to enjoy my life?

And I, I always laugh at
that 'cause it's true.

Like, your, your mind is always
like, has something negative to say,

or oftentimes mine does at least.

And I love to step in and be
like, where can I find gratitude?

And you can find it anywhere
all the time because mm-hmm.

Exactly.

That it's like, just the wonder of
being alive in this world is always

accessible and that awe and that joy.

And even in the tough moments like you
were experiencing in Mongolia, yeah.

That, that does sound stressful to have
the possibility, a large possibility of

failure, but you cannot, you know, it's
that glass half full and half empty.

You can look at the part that's half
full and what an amazing experience.

And there's, there's always a
chance for perspective shift.

So I really, I really like that tool.

Another way to look at it that
I really like to talk to riders

about when they're doing endurance.

And it doesn't just have to be
riders, runners, anyone going

through anything difficult.

I love this little trick
of past and future.

You, so like when you're in a
space that's really difficult.

And you don't feel like you can
go forward or you wanna give up,

you can think about past you.

That's done so much to
get you to that point.

So for example, if you're doing the
Goucher Derby or the Mongol Derby, you

can, and you wanna give up at some point
you can be like, well, past me has worked

my butt off to get here, both mentally,
emotionally, physically, financially, to

put me in this spot and I can't give up
because of past me, what past me has done.

And then you can look forward
and say, and what is future me?

How is future me gonna
judge me in this moment?

And sometimes it's really helpful to
come outta the present moment when the

present moment is difficult and talk to
your past and future self, past me did

too much work to get me to this point.

And I have to show up and be grateful
for all that work and, and carry

through and future me is gonna
judge me if I give up right now.

So those are, those are some tools
I use that are in conjunction with

what you're saying of finding that
awe and that wonder in the moment,

Rupert Isaacson: I, I might
tell my future meter F off.

Stevie Delahunt: Right?

It's a little hard sometimes.

Go

Rupert Isaacson: f in the effing effing FF

Stevie Delahunt: you're not
dealing with this right now.

Like, yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: hindsight's 2020, right?

12 2020s.

The the charm or whatever's the, okay.

Or, and this feeling of gratitude
I feel often comes from mentorship.

I.

Who mentors you, who mentor?

Who's the, who's the Mongolian
horseman or woman who has mentored you?

And you talk about the
spiritual side of the horse.

Talk to me about the practice of
spiritual horsemanship in Mongolia,

or let's talk about it because
I feel that there's clues there.

We, that, that thing we're just
reading about or giving you a

gateway to the supernatural.

This takes mentorship, this takes
somebody showing the way you come in as

an American girl versed in horsemanship.

Great.

And you can run ultra marathons.

Fantastic.

Or ultra distances or both, or maybe,
or maybe at the same time with a cake.

And then you arrive somewhere like
Mongolia and they're like, well, you

know, you've come all this way to do
this thing, but this is where we live.

This is us.

You know?

I remember when I was in Mongolia
there, there was a running joke,

which was the Mongolians would say,
we know that you guys in the West,

whenever you talk about somewhere
being on the ars, end of nowhere,

you say, it's like in Adam Mongolia.

It's like, but Adam Mongolia.

For us, it's like.

Where we live, it's like, where you
guys live, that's outta Mongolia to us.

And I was like, you know,
absolutely, you're right.

You're right.

So yeah, talk to me a
little bit about that.

Do you, is there a mentor or ment or Yeah.

Is there a mentor out there in Mongolia
who picks you up or has picked you

up and has kind of shown you the way?

Stevie Delahunt: So I would say I
probably, out of the two races that I'm

involved with, with Mongol Derby and
Gaucho Derby, I'm actually more connected

to the race in Patagonia, in Argentina.

So there's more of a relationship
there, but in both places, Mongolian

and Argentina and at home, my
spiritual guides and mentors

have actually been the animals.

And for me, I would say the most spiritual
experience I had in Mongolia was recently

doing a trip up to the re reindeer people
that sat Tribe through my friend Eric

Cooper who's had like a longstanding
relationship with the same families.

Going up there, I expected
to actually connect with.

And they were wonderful and lovely, but I
had a crazy experience with the reindeer.

I rode.

I I've found my way into like
connecting with animals and speaking

with them is the same as humans.

You, if you take a moment of
awe and gratitude for an animal

before you connect with it or ask
them to carry you in this case.

So I was riding this reindeer.

I was truly blown away by his antlers
and I could tell that he was very proud

of them and had a moment of gratitude
for how he looked and presented himself.

And we just instantly connected.

And my connection to him was really,
really interesting because I was kind of

asking his name and he could not give me
a name 'cause he could not see himself

outside of the herd of reindeer, which was
a really beautiful and amazing experience

because then I saw him through the lens
of everyone that was living in that area.

Like the people do not feel that
they're separate from the land.

And there's like such, such less ego
identity up there when this like symbiotic

living creature that is all the creatures
together, like including the moss and

the lichen that the reindeer's eating.

And I really kind of felt
this, and I've had my own herd.

Tell me this at home, but like if
you're digesting something, like say

you've just taken a mouthful of grass.

That's inside you.

How is that grass now separate from you?

It's within you.

And at what point did the
grass become not become you or

where, where's the difference?

And my horses at home are, have
been telling me like, this ecosystem

is all one living creature.

Just because the grass blades grow
separately from the horse, the

horse eventually consumes them.

So where is the disconnect in where
one living thing starts and one ends?

And I really felt that
again, from the reindeer up.

The reindeer that I met, he, he had
no name because he saw himself as part

of a hole and not like one individual
piece with one own ego identity.

And just that, that perspective
shift in everyone that was up there,

including the people, was wild.

It was a truly wild experience to behold.

And I feel.

Rupert Isaacson: Why do you think, why
do you feel you don't feel that down

with the horse people in the step?

Stevie Delahunt: I, I have, but for the
most part the, the horse people in the

step in Mongolia, were at that point
when we're interacting, it's much more

back into the Western world, I guess.

They're, we're all putting on a
race and money's being transacted.

There's.

Much more human culture that's
be become ingrained there.

So it was a different world to be involved
in the step in Mongolia, in the Mongo

Derby versus going up to see the reindeer
people who are up there connected to land.

Have you seen

Rupert Isaacson: out any
of the horse shamans?

Stevie Delahunt: I have not, no.

Rupert Isaacson: Are you familiar
with a concept called the wind horse?

Stevie Delahunt: I'm not, no.

Okay.

Rupert Isaacson: It's
an interesting concept.

So, one of the difficulties you
know, when I'm seeking out shamans

is as you say, ego's a problem.

And I speak about this as
a card carrying egomaniac.

So we know the issues with ego
because we're born with them.

Nonetheless, we have to try to
navigate, you know, and the difficulty

can often be that peoples who have
a, who've kept a shamanic tradition,

but who have a very strong warrior
tradition who've made a lot of warfare.

Of course warfare is
entirely tied up with ego.

And what we, one knows this
about Mongolia, that, you know,

for a while it was the most
violent culture on the planet.

You know, they w every two generations
they would explode out of Mongolia

and kill everybody, you know, from
the Pacific to the Mediterranean.

And then sort of.

Run out of energy and, you know, regroup
back in Mongolia until the next time.

And then somewhere in the 17th
century, a couple of Tibetan monks

wandered over the, I'm simplifying it,
but basically wandered over the alt

plateau and started talking to people
about this thing called Buddhism.

And in about a generation, the
entire culture of warfare in

Mongolia went, oh, well I guess
we're not gonna do that anymore.

And it's one of the greatest
achievements in human history.

You, you could argue that the West
after World War II was something similar

where we fought ourselves to a point
after 10,000 years of continuous tribal

warfare, where we kind of went, oh shit.

Well maybe actually we kind of don't want
to actually do this at this scale anymore.

But only because the scale of
the destruction was so great.

The homeland of Mongolia
was never overrun, was never

destroyed when they went out.

They destroyed other people.

They own homeland was so, so, so
the fact that they made this shift

voluntarily, it's extraordinary.

So the Windhorse is, concept that you
get in Tibet, but also in Mongolia

where it's about, basically it's your
luck, your wind horse is your luck, your

mojo, your soul, your wind horse can be
sick, your wind horse can be healthy.

You can ride your wind horse to the spirit
world or to various spiritual quests.

But you need to do it with the
help of a, of a shaman or a healer.

And there are of course very good
shamans among the step people.

And there are of course
shamans who have more ego.

And as you pointed out, you,
you don't find so much of that

up with the reindeer people.

'cause guess what?

They're not warriors.

And the son, the Kalahari Bushman
that I spent so much time with,

they're not warriors either.

So their tradition's very pure, but
still among the horse people, I would

posit that you are there to do this
spiritual journey and there's a spiritual

tradition there.

And as you said, the derby perhaps
less so because money's changing

hands and it's, it's a business.

When you said, if I'd just gone
there not for the race, it would've

been tourism, that's where I
was like, eh, eh n nah, what's.

What little thing is preventing
you, do you think, from seeking

out those human mentors?

You say, oh yeah, I go straight to
the animals and a little bit of me

cries BS on that saying, but that's
an easy road because humans are more

challenging and you are a human.

And that is our species and that is our,
and when these people are showing up there

needing that help from you, why not reach
out to and seek the help of that spiritual

tradition that's right there in Mongolia?

Or do you think that that's something
that's awaiting you or what, what, where?

Yeah, gimme your thoughts on that.

Stevie Delahunt: Yeah.

I, you know, I said I get
mentored by the animals and all

these places I go in at home.

I'm also mentored by all
the people around me.

I kind of feel like, personally, I
feel like the universe speaks to you

however you're willing to listen.

And I think I've just been much
more willing to listen to animals

and now I'm actually, why is that,

Rupert Isaacson: though?

Why are you more willing
to listen to animals?

What's the resistance about the people?

Stevie Delahunt: That's a good question.

And I'd say it's actually
shifting in me now.

I was gonna say, the other people that
I really learn a lot from are kids.

So the kids that I teach, I am blown
away by the wisdom there because they

are not yet indoctrinated with by
paradigms that have been pushed on them.

And they just come up with the most
pure, like, organic thoughts that really

blow my mind and remind me of who I am.

And with that shift going from
animals to kids, I'm now like

a lot more trusting of adults.

And I think I just had, growing up
I just started to learn that adults

didn't always know what was going on.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, we
never know what's going on.

Yeah.

None of us do.

Don't either.

I tell the kids that

Stevie Delahunt: all the time.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Stevie Delahunt: I'm like, just
'cause I'm older than you doesn't

mean I know anything more.

So I think that I have shied away
from other adult human beings for

quite some time because I started
to realize that as at a young age,

that they humans couldn't be trusted.

Rupert Isaacson: Or is it this, that
they can be trusted to be human?

Stevie Delahunt: Yes.

They can be trusted to be human.

That's a good, that's a good point.

Rupert Isaacson: And, and
when you're a kid, right?

And you're dealing with playground
politics, you're having exactly

the same experience, aren't you?

Like, you can't trust the other kids.

That's true.

Or you can trust them.

That's, you can trust
them to be themselves, act

Stevie Delahunt: like humans.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: And that this
seems to magnify as they get

older, but as we get older.

But yeah.

And then of course it, one can say,
okay, well I don't feel threatened by

a child, you know, so therefore I, so
it's about you to, is it about threat

and the need to deal with threat?

And so one can throw oneself
into extreme physical endeavor.

Type two.

Fun.

All of these things.

But no, I'm not gonna seek
out that Mongolian shaman,

even though I'm in Mongolian.

I'm not gonna go for this sort of
adult thing because I don't trust him.

'cause I think I might get hurt.

And you're right, you
might, you probably will.

But maybe isn't that type two as well,
do you not need to be, you know, so,

Stevie Delahunt: so that's
a really good question.

Yeah.

I would actually, I'm hoping
to seek out a Mongolian shaman.

I just haven't found the right
connection to that or a right invitation.

And probably my third mentor, as I was
saying, like the universe speaks to you

in whatever modality is pres presented.

I actually a really, I don't know
if enjoy is the right word, but

I feel drawn to plant medicines.

So that's often how I speak
and connect with the horses.

So I do hero's doses of mushrooms.

I've done that for a while now.

And that's another way that I,

Rupert Isaacson: hero's dose,

Stevie Delahunt: heroes dose.

I think that's like technically
for, I, I don't know what the

technicality is, but for me, like four
or five grams is more than enough.

So it's a large quantity.

What's dose,

Rupert Isaacson: what's like a microdose.

Stevie Delahunt: I'm
not sure of the grams.

But it's a, a microdose would be
just where you have a slightly

elevated mood, so like maybe one
psilocybin mushroom in of itself.

And to quantify this for people
not familiar with it, then it would

be, I don't know, like seven or
eight mushrooms taking that many.

Rupert Isaacson: So, and
why is it a hero's dose?

Why, why is one a hero if one does that?

Stevie Delahunt: I think it's a allusion
to Odysseus in the hero's journey,

which is like all of our stories.

Rupert Isaacson: Right?

Stevie Delahunt: Right.

You have to go out in the world and
come back to yourself, um Right.

And

Rupert Isaacson: be tested
and get freaked out.

Stevie Delahunt: Yeah.

Yeah.

And that's, I would say, those
large quantities, you're definitely

gonna, it's holding up a mirror to
your soul a little bit, and you have

to travel through that to get to
the great stuff on the other side.

So,

Rupert Isaacson: so talk, who
introduced you to SLO Sullivan?

Stevie Delahunt: I was a, a random
connection in an accident at a party

when I first met my husband and we
had both talked about wanting to

try that because we had heard about
the spiritual quality of it mm-hmm.

And the realization that maybe
there's more outside the, the world

that and dimension that we're in
and we were both curious about it.

And our first experience was a
really beautiful one that we had

together and that just blew my mind.

I could literally see my thoughts.

Was

Rupert Isaacson: that curated by
anybody or, or did you just buy

mushrooms and sit together and do them?

Stevie Delahunt: Yeah, we just bought
mushrooms, sat together and did them

without any guidance or intention.

Had no idea.

Rupert Isaacson: And what, what happened?

Stevie Delahunt: We ended up giggling
for a very long time sitting on the

beach because we could see the awe
and wonder and everything and saw

like lots of beautiful geometrics.

Again, I've never had the
experience of hallucinating really

beyond what's actually there.

It's just a enhancement of
everything that's around you.

So we had sat on the beach and
connected and we had connections back

to our parents and just really, it's,
it's like a journey through your own

thoughts and really examining them.

It feels like hours and hours
of therapy within a minute.

Rupert Isaacson: And, and then
you decided to keep going?

Stevie Delahunt: Yeah.

After that experience and having
enjoying that I continued doing trips

occasionally with the horses and
I've just learned lots of really,

I've had some very, when you say

Rupert Isaacson: with the horses, you
mean taking SS and riding your horses?

In that being,

Stevie Delahunt: being in
their, in their presence.

I have ridden them.

But generally I just am around them
and they're, they're very drawn to it.

When we have a joke, actually
there's these cushions that we

used to take out to the pasture.

'cause we would lay down and lay out
with the horses when we would take

psilocybin to connect with them.

And we call them the cushions
of enlightenment as a joke

because the horses are obsessed.

They think the cushions have a connection
to like how we get into that state.

And so they will run up and start chewing
on the cushions, pawing them, like they

lay down on top of the cushions as well.

Like they're, they can tell the shift in
our energy and such a cool experience,

but we have a big joke that they think
it's the cushions themselves that

are causing the shift in our energy.

Rupert Isaacson: When you are taking
the psilocybin among the horses,

what's coming through from the horses?

Stevie Delahunt: I've had
lots of different experiences.

But the first and biggest and most
memorable one was I didn't really know

if horses loved the way that we did.

And this was probably the
most beautiful experiences.

My mare Sparta, who I'm really connected
with, I was just trying to express to

her like, the only message I feel like
I'm really good at giving to the horses

at all times is love and gratitude.

And I was sending that to her and sort
of like asking, do you love us too?

And she turned and looked at me
and I could just feel it her, it

was a felt sense of her thoughts.

It wasn't really in English, but
I, my brain translated to that.

And she was just explaining
that they have offspring too.

Horses have offspring as well,
and love is an evolutionary tool.

And so of course they have the
same kind of love that we do.

They love their babies and so,
and they love each other and

that's how a herd connects and
looks out for its for each other.

And so I just had this realization
that they love in the same

way that we do, that we're all
sentient beings, we're all animals.

We have the same quality of love.

And that was a very cool, realization and
connection that I had on one of the trips.

I had, I've had horses request different
foods and and, and had really, like

you, you question it afterwards, right?

Like you, it's only naturally
like, did that really happen?

But I've had some like really profound
realizations that came from the horses.

Like they asked for slippery elm.

Like one of my horses has had some
gut issues and I'd never heard

of Slippery Elm before and it's
very common much something Texas

Rupert Isaacson: thing.

We, we had a lot of it growing
around us when I lived in Texas.

Yeah.

Stevie Delahunt: Yeah.

And I never heard of it, but it
just came into my mind and it was

one of our our horses hero actually
is his name was asking that we got

Slippery Elm and fed it to them.

And so we did like, just really
cool little things like that.

The rest are like the other connections
that I've had with them on these

trips are I can actually see.

Energy like in geometrics, and
I can send it back and forth.

Our appaloosa Sonic seems to be
really good at this, and we, I, I

don't have any idea what's happening.

There's something really strange
happening, but we're, I can feel

energy fields around them and have
them push that back and forth.

And I know that something's happening
because, and I've had a friend film me

while I was on mushrooms and they were
not, and I would like push it back and

the horse would lay down and like, I
mean, just really crazy interactions

where you can see it without seeing it.

Does that make sense?

So just cool things with energy that
I'm not sure that what's going on.

And then having them express
like wants and needs to us,

Rupert Isaacson: like,

Stevie Delahunt: just like the
slippery elm, like getting supplements

or having, they often talk about
how they would like the gates open.

They wanna be able to travel freely
around the property and past our property.

And I've tried to explain to them that
they, can I let them go on our property?

They actually get to walk all over.

But I have to explain to them they
can't leave just the way our roads

are and I don't want them hit by cars.

Rupert Isaacson: What do they say to that?

Stevie Delahunt: They kept the appaloosa.

Sonic is the one that has the
biggest issue with being fenced off.

And he says that he knows better
and that he would come back.

He keeps saying, I'd
come back every night.

I come back every night.

Which that drives me back
to thinking about Mongolia.

And this might be mind blowing for
a lot of people in the US that have

animals that are always fenced in.

And you would've experienced
this in Mongolia.

It's so cool how these herds live wild.

But all the goat herds, all the
yaks, all the horses, they come in

at night to be around the people.

And the the horses really do roam
with the people over the lands.

Like they don't stray that far away, which
is like a really cool validation for the

connection that humans have with horses.

Like they wanna be part of our culture,
and they have, they have the ability

to take off and never come back.

And they, they don't do that,
which is really an amazing thing.

And I think Sonic would love to be a
Mongolian horse without any fences.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

And I, I, I think, yeah.

So so much of that depends on the human
culture that they, the horse grew up in.

If they would know to come back in
that way, some might, some might not.

Yeah, I, I remember in Mongol, we, we did
actually lose one of our horses to wolves.

Oh wow.

Our journey.

But then again, my feeling is that
if you are living in that ecosystem.

You know, from the horse's point
of view, is that a, a risk worth?

You know, okay, that might happen,
but it's still my environment.

It's still within my remit of my quality
of life to be able to, to roam that way.

So I remember asking myself that question.

I'm like, shit, should we have had some
sort of corral and thinking, well, but

no, their whole life is, is this, this
is sort of, sort of a natural way.

Stevie Delahunt: Freedom.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, freedom.

Freedom.

Stevie Delahunt: And freedom for them.

Freedom sometimes means, you know, risk,

Rupert Isaacson: right?

And you know, back to boredom and
quality of life, I, I do think

that people need risk in the
same way that they need oxygen.

That one can say, well, I want
to test myself or test see how I,

but again, hunter-gatherer life
is just, involves a lot of risk.

So if we suddenly take those risks
away, our brains don't know that

we're not hunter-gatherers anymore,
and our sensory systems don't know

that and they still want us to be.

And surely risk is a part of that.

So we'll do risk taking activities,
drive fast in the car, take drugs, you

know, lefa, star, youngie type stuff

because we're driven to do that.

Because we're supposed to go
take a spear and see if we can

come back with the wildebeest.

And I, I do think that's clear.

Your, your experiences with psychedelics,
do you bring those into helping people or

is this just a private thing that you do?

Stevie Delahunt: I have
brought it in occasionally,

especially working with people.

I've worked a lot with people in trailer
trauma, so for people that don't own

horses trailering horses is actually

Rupert Isaacson: a whole thing.

Live in trailers.

It's like, it's so traumatic.

That

Stevie Delahunt: Exactly.

So sorry.

So horse trailering getting horses
from point A to point B in the western

world, getting them on a horse trailer
or horse float is really stressful for a

lot of people, especially, I think even
more so women who are a little afraid

to drive large rigs and afraid that
something will happen to their horse.

Rupert Isaacson: So you get
'em to drive while they're on

mushrooms and it's all fine.

Yeah,

Stevie Delahunt: yeah.

No, just just the practice
of loading a horse.

On and off.

There's a lot of accidents and Yeah, sure.

And trailer loading.

So there's a lot of fear and trauma
and I've done a little work there

of having people take low doses
to change their mindset and their.

Elevate their mood.

'cause again, as we were saying earlier,
I really feel that fear is a vibrational

opposite of love and gratitude.

And so when you're experiencing fear
and you'd rather not be like in a

situation with a horse where you're
translating and transmitting that

fear and anxiety to the animal if you
step back and can have a moment of

gratitude, you can change the situation.

Mm-hmm.

Now we all know it's really easy to say
that and almost impossible to do that,

especially if you've had a cycle and
pattern of having traumatic events happen

Rupert Isaacson: or if there's some
time pressure on you or some external

circumstance that says you need to
get this horse on this trailer now.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stevie Delahunt: Absolutely.

Especially in a veterinary
emergency or whatnot.

Mm-hmm.

So having a low dose situation for
the people working with the horse can

help rewrite those brain patterns.

They say taking psilocybin is a little
bit like looking at a ski hill, and

you can see all the ski tracks that
you usually take down the mountain.

And if you keep taking the same track down
the mountain over and over again, you're

making those ruts deeper and deeper.

So that's the loop or the neuro pattern
that you're following all the time.

And taking psilocybin is a
little bit like fresh snow.

Where there's no tracks now on the
mountain to follow down and you can

rewrite how you go down the mountain.

And in that light, having people
have this moment to be able to step

back and actually have the ability
to be choose gratitude over fear in

the moment can change their energy.

And then when this happens, you can have
really successful stories where a horse

that would never load before because the
owner had so much anxiety in getting them

in the trailer, suddenly is able to load
that horse because they're able to choose

gratitude and presence over the stories
in their head about what might happen.

So that's, that's where I've
done some work with people.

And

Rupert Isaacson: are you, are you then
using the psilocybin in a sort of like

a therapy session away from the horse?

Or are you actually saying, no, let's take
a small dose and, and load that horse?

Stevie Delahunt: Yeah, we're
doing, we're doing both.

Depends on how deep the trauma is.

But generally it's with the horse.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Stevie Delahunt: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: I'm thinking about
that rewriting of neural pathways.

Are you, have you ever worked with peyote?

Stevie Delahunt: I have not.

I would be interested
in it, but I have not.

Rupert Isaacson: So our mutual
friend, Warwick Schiller and I

found ourselves in a sweat lodge.

With another mutual friend, Joel, who
you also know, Joel done that with a,

a, a very good healer, Stephen forth
who's in the Lakota tradition and who

I must actually have on the podcast.

And I was going through
a pretty major funk.

And Steven who knew me, said,
oh, Rupert, you are, you're

on the struggle bus, you know?

I'm like, yeah, yeah, I am.

And he said, I think honestly, I
recommend that you do some medicine.

And I said, that's the
last thing I need, Steven.

You know, I, I'm just barely clinging onto
the cliff face by my fingernails here,

and you want to give me some psychotropic?

No, the answer is not just, no,
but bleep, no, you know, it's,

it's the last thing I need.

And he said, you know, Rupert,
how long have you known me?

And I said, well, a long time.

And he said, you know, why
are you in here with me?

I said, well, 'cause you're a
healer and I trust you and stuff.

And he goes, have I ever you know that,
you know, medicine, IE peyote is very

much a part of what we do, but have I
ever suggested to you to do it before?

Mm, no.

He said, well, I do you, do
You trust me as a professional?

That's a gateway.

Yes.

Right, right.

And they said, look, Ru, of course I
understand exactly where you are and

there's no way I would deliver a dose
to you that would do what you fear.

However, the, the medicine is a medicine
and if you can trust me, I and I,

so anyway, after some
whining and whinging I did.

And what was so interesting you talking
about rewriting the neural pathways

after a certain time had passed and
we're in the sweat lodge praying and,

you know, singing and as one does and
sweating, I began to feel you, you're

familiar with a PowerPoint presentation.

You had that little red laser dot, it
felt like I had a little red laser dot

going up my leg or my right leg where I've
got some little bits of tension and pain

and it would just go to the place where
there was tension and pain and kind of go

and it would release and then
it would go to the next one,

beep.

And it went up like this through my body.

And I was like, well, this is interesting.

And then it went into my brain.

And it went to everywhere.

I had anxiety as like a
physical place and just went,

beep, gone.

Did this for a while.

And then

I thought, well, this is wonderful.

However, this is a drug, so it will
pass, and then I will be back in the

same position that I was in before.

But it didn't, it never came back.

It never went away.

So it is really interesting.

I, I agree with you how tropic
psychedelics, whatever one wants to call

them, that have been pursued by humans
for hundreds of thousands of years,

for very good reason, seem to be able
to radically change our internal as

whether, and our external environment
in a way that gives us a perspective

that allows us to override neural
pathways that are no longer helpful.

Provided the person who is delivering
to us knows what they're doing.

You know, in the same way that
one would hope a doctor knows what

they're doing, if they give us a, you
know, a, a pharmaceutical you talk

about being more drawn to Patagonia.

And your gaucho experiences
there, the gaucho derby.

Why is that?

Why is it that landscape
that has drawn you so much?

As you may know, if you've been following
my work, we are also horsey folk here.

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And then you also talked, you,
you, you alluded to the fact

that you might actually have
some human mentors down there.

Talk to us about your
experience in Patagonia.

Stevie Delahunt: Yeah, absolutely.

I think again it's funny that in
our conversation I've noticed like

my avoidance of humans to a degree.

Oh really?

Rupert Isaacson: Have you noticed that?

I haven't noticed that at all.

It's funny you mentioned that.

Stevie Delahunt: So I, I really
my husband's from South Africa and

there's a saying that actually work.

Our mutual friend work Schiller
has brought up that a guest of his

headset said that in Africa there's
an energy about Africa and every

day that you wake up that everything
else is waking up, up in Africa.

Rupert Isaacson: For sure.

What was that?

You feel more alive down there for sure.

Stevie Delahunt: Yeah.

You're more aware and more in
your body, but because you're a

little bit living in fear mm-hmm.

Like there, it's much more dangerous.

And today could be the day that you die.

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

And you.

Stevie Delahunt: You wake up with
that energy and you feel it, but

it's also like a very human energy.

Like there's, there's it, it feels
like where humanity came from

is, there's just a deeper energy.

It's

Rupert Isaacson: where humanity came from.

Stevie Delahunt: It feels that way.

Exactly.

And so that the energy in Africa is
almost the opposite of what it is

in Patagonia When you're down there,
it feels so, such earth energy.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

And I think

Stevie Delahunt: it's that
volcanic and glacial landscape.

It feels devoid of humans and
it's just a deep feeling of this

might be what the earth would
look like without people on it.

Just kind of inhospitable at times.

Like a hundred mile an hour winds
very often, like just insane.

You're getting closer to
Antarctica down there.

It's like at the very tip of
Argentina the Patagonia area.

And I think it feels like
home to me down there.

There's just a beautiful
energy of the earth and being

connected back to the earth.

And I think the landscape itself
feels like a mentor to me down there.

And then the people that choose to
call it home feel that same way.

And I feel instantly at peace
being around around them.

We have a particular
family at the Estancia le.

Perseverance.

Yeah.

So that translates as perseverance
Ranch, and they're, they're at the

ends of the earth down there and all
the whole family that's chosen to

live there has that feeling as well.

Like they feel so connected to
that land and so at peace with

the harshness of the earth itself.

And so looking, getting to spend time
with them is sort of clarifying and

confronting, if that makes sense.

So

Rupert Isaacson: talk to
me about these people.

Who are they and what
have they taught you?

Stevie Delahunt: They've, they've kind
of, and I actually get this a lot from

my husband who is South African as well.

I think Who you, where
do I start with this?

I guess that they are just
made of tougher stuff.

I, I really admire people that, you
know, you get a scratch on your hand

and they, or, or you're bleeding
and they're like, ah, I'm fine.

And they're able to like,
push through the small things.

And that, I guess like in the
culture I grew up and you get

scratch on your hand immediately.

Your mom's grabbing a bandaid, making a
big fuss, like, every little thing that's

small is blown up beyond proportion.

I feel like in our softer, westernized
culture and when I'm down in

Patagonia with these people who might
get dumped off a horse, you fall

on the ground, you get right back
on, you keep riding, no big deal.

There are no, no big fuss is
made over the small things.

And I feel like my South African
husband is also quite like this.

And I, I think I'm drawn to
that, that assuredness and

that confidence of existence.

I don't know if I'm articulating
this very well today.

No, no, I

Rupert Isaacson: agree.

The question that comes up in my mind is
you live in the Western states, right?

Where do you live again?

Stevie Delahunt: I live in Oregon now.

Yeah.

And you live in South California, the

Rupert Isaacson: high, the high desert.

Stevie Delahunt: That's correct.

Rupert Isaacson: I would, I would
presume that there's lots of ranches

around you who you could argue
who, who, who would live exactly.

That life that you're talking
about in Patagonia know that they,

that they're living out there.

It's a pretty unforgiving landscape.

They probably get dumped off their
horse and cut quite a lot and get up.

And what, what's the difference between
the people in the high desert in Oregon

and the people down in Patagonia?

Or is it just more to be in
a, a new and exotic place?

I.

Stevie Delahunt: Maybe it is the
place itself, but I think that

there is a level of toughness.

Like even in Oregon, you can, something
goes wrong, you can drive 20 minutes and

you've got every store and chain that
you could think of or a hospital mm-hmm.

To get to.

Mm-hmm.

Out in Patagonia, it's, I think it's
an eight hour drive to anything.

Yeah.

Where we're at.

And at minimum, I mean, if you're out
on horseback, that's like a day or two.

It's, and that's also like an
advent of the Mongol Derby as well.

Or being out in Mongolia, there's
truly a separation from society and

yourself, which makes you so much
that assuredness I'm talking about.

You're so much more self-sufficient.

You're looking, you know, when we
have the opportunity to have someone

else take care of things for us, we
often are lazy part of our brain.

We'll jump to that.

But if you're the only relaxed to

Rupert Isaacson: conserv energy.

Yeah, yeah,

Stevie Delahunt: exactly.

Yeah.

It's evolutionary.

But when you're the only person that you
can look to for things, you become that.

And

Rupert Isaacson: I presume though
that when you're, because when you're

doing the derby so we say derby, if
we're English, this built into us.

That's right.

Very hard to say Derby.

It's like, I try to say, so there's

Stevie Delahunt: a British
company that puts them on.

So is the Derby Darbys,

Rupert Isaacson: the Darbys the, the.

It's effectively tourism.

Admittedly high adventure tourism,
but still, if people get in trouble,

you gotta get 'em out of there.

And if, if people get hurt,
you've got to tend to them.

So you must have to put in all
kinds of infrastructure that

wouldn't normally be there in order
to make sure people don't die.

So how do you do that?

Stevie Delahunt: Absolutely.

I think, I think before what I was
thinking of the phrase, which ties

into this is radical self-reliance
is what you're looking for out there.

I like, and that's actually a principle
of Burning Man that I've stolen, but

I use it when I'm training everyone
in their Goucher Derby in Mongo Derby.

I'm like, you need to be
radically self-reliant.

And I think that that's the
quality that it was sort of in.

Rupert Isaacson: But nonetheless, if
they fall off and break their leg,

you'll go in there, find them, and

Stevie Delahunt: we'll go and get them.

So yeah, we have actually a really cool
team of medics that we bring along that

are horsemen and medic and medics as well.

And.

Yeah, for the MGO Derby,
very easy to extract people.

We have road accessibility.

I mean, you've been out there, they
can drive a Prius over anything in

Mongolia, which is pretty crazy.

Rupert Isaacson: Drive it across the step.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stevie Delahunt: I kind of feel
like the Prius Toyota's missing an

opportunity there and some great
commercials for the Toyota Prius.

'cause I've seen those things.

Ford Rivers do insane.

Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

Andro insane

Stevie Delahunt: stuff.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

We've messed them up mountains, but, okay.

But if you, if you, if someone has
an accident and they are gonna have

accidents, 'cause it's a dangerous thing.

Let's sit, it's down in Patagonia,
eight hours drive from something and

someone is in some critical condition.

So what, what, what's the
infrastructure that you put in?

I'm, I'm intrigued.

Stevie Delahunt: Yeah, the
infrastructure a little bit.

So, like I was saying, Mongolia
is much safer because we can, it's

road accessible almost the entire
way, but Goucher Derby is not.

And we have to have everyone,
entire crew medics, everyone

has to be able to ride a horse.

Veterinarians have to
be able to ride a horse.

We have a helicopter on standby, but
the winds in Patagonia are pretty

much biblical almost all the time.

So that interferes with the helicopter's
ability to come and get people.

My first year, or sorry, the
Gaucho Derby, the first year it

ran was a pioneer edition where it
was not a fully formed race yet.

And so my husband and I were invited to
race and we actually got caught out in

a massive snow storm in the mountains.

And it was very unexpected.

We hadn't, none of us had known where
the race was gonna go, so no one

had the equipment to deal with snow.

And we had five people that ended up
needing to be life flighted out of the

mountains because they had hypothermia.

But that couldn't happen until
the winds and the storm died down.

So yes, there's infrastructure
in place, helicopter medics but

oftentimes the weather and the
terrain and Patagonia still will

make it impossible to get to you.

So there is an element of, yes, you
could really die doing these races.

And that was our, has anyone

Rupert Isaacson: died?

Stevie Delahunt: No
one has, knock on wood.

Yeah.

No one has.

Rupert Isaacson: And when these people
had hypothermia and they needed to come

out, how did they contact you to say, or
how did they contact the helicopter crew?

Stevie Delahunt: Yeah,
that's, that's a good point.

And what I glossed over in
our infrastructure, your

Rupert Isaacson: ability to
do things like that, you know,

goes away with hypothermia.

Yeah.

So,

Stevie Delahunt: yeah, luckily,
so everyone has an Garmin inReach

which connects to your phone.

So you basically can text message at all
times, even without satellite signal.

So when inclement weather's coming
in headquarters back in Bristol,

we will send information out,
Hey, there's a storm coming.

We need you to take cover,
which was the situation there.

And people were able to
say, I'm not doing well.

And when they sent out that
information, I'm not doing well.

And the storm is happening.

Headquarters came back and
gave them GPS coordinates.

So on top of having the Garmin in
reach, we also have GPS systems.

They're the older Garmin 64 s and that
way you can navigate to certain points.

And they headquarters ended up giving
everyone a central location, brought all

the riders together so that they could
be extracted by helicopter when the

weather cleared, but also got them into
one place so that we could start a fire

and warm everybody up in the same area
and have people looking after each other.

And they weren't

Rupert Isaacson: on with hypothermia
that they couldn't map the horse and

ride it to that rendezvous point.

Stevie Delahunt: Yeah.

They actually made the rendezvous point
at the two riders that were the most

Rupert Isaacson: badly not doing

Stevie Delahunt: well.

Yeah.

That

Rupert Isaacson: makes Okay.

That, that's, that's wise.

Yeah.

Stevie Delahunt: So, there's a whole team
around the world that's always working

while the races are happening to have
constant communication with riders.

And in that case, that's
what saved everyone's life.

They're the people who are
putting everything together and

getting everyone in one place.

Additionally my coworker Eric,
who is also the one that runs the

trips to the sadden people mm-hmm.

He was able to start an emergency
fire and get people warmed up and dry.

And I honestly think just starting
that fire truly saved lives.

And I was like, we joke about
it, but we're like, how cool?

Like we always say, a good barometer for
what you're doing is or if what you're

doing in life is what you should be
doing would your 8-year-old self approve?

And Eric is laughing and saying,
this is always what I dreamed

of as a kid, that starting a
fire would save everyone's life.

You know, you as a kid when you go out
and go camping and learn to start fires.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, definitely.

And it

Stevie Delahunt: really did.

Rupert Isaacson: I was thinking of a, a
ride I did once in Latu in South Africa.

You're probably familiar with it.

And it's very high cold.

I love

Stevie Delahunt: latu.

Rupert Isaacson: And we got caught
out in some really bad weather

and our guide started a fire in.

Just a torrential icy rain.

I was like, how on earth is he going to
light a fire out of sort of effectively

Fein boss Heather, that he's just pulling
outta the ground and, and yet he did.

And yeah, it made the difference.

What did the, what happened to the horses
in that, in that situation you would

lift the people out, the horses just
turn their backs to the wind and survive?

Stevie Delahunt: Yeah, pretty
much I was very stressed out

about how the horses were doing.

Mm-hmm.

Luckily I was not one of the
people getting hypothermia.

I was very cold and thought I might die.

But I was, I had the wherewithal
to be able to check on horses.

We actually ended up leaving the
saddles on a lot of the horses 'cause

it was an extra insulation and warmth

Rupert Isaacson: and

Stevie Delahunt: we just brought them to
an area that was more sheltered by trees.

And we ended up not tying most of them up
because I wanted them to be able to graze.

And I was like, well, if
we lose the horses in this

situation, it's probably okay.

Yeah.

Like they, they need to fend for
themselves, but they all stuck around.

They weren't familiar with that
area, so they knew they should

stay by their humans, but that way
they can move around and graze.

And they, honestly, quite a
few of them, middle of the snow

storm are just out there grazing.

No, no big deal.

Yeah, no,

Rupert Isaacson: absolutely.

It's, it's amazing.

Our horses, their environment, they
used to, they're like, yeah, snow me.

Yeah.

Tornado me.

Yeah.

Yeah,

Stevie Delahunt: exactly.

Rupert Isaacson: They're so tough.

And it's funny, you, you were talking
about the hypothermia there and the winds.

I, I remember reading about and I
was trying to remember what their

name was, the indigenous people down
in Patagonia, who used to travel by

canoe with fires in their canoes.

And that this was written about by
British sailors that got shipwrecked

down there in the 18th century
and got rescued by these people.

The Yagan people constantly had a fire
stoked to keep themselves warm, even

chance, the demise of their transportation
by starting them within their bark canoes,

and that they would travel this incredible
human technology in a place like that.

And then of course, they all died
of smallpox and, you know, after wee

Whitey showed up and colonized it all in

Stevie Delahunt: the, there's actually
quite a lot of paintings still on

rocks out there from the Chen people.

Mm-hmm.

In the area that we run the race.

And that's really, really cool to see.

And I believe Chen's actually, so
you said the yen, was that the, the,

Rupert Isaacson: yes.

I, I believe here I'm reading it Yagan.

Stevie Delahunt: Mm-hmm.

Rupert Isaacson: But can you, can
you, spell TWE t Welcher, did you say?

Stevie Delahunt: I can, I I've only
said it conversationally in Patagonia,

but the, to Welchs there's still
a lineage of, to Welch and people

that live amongst everyone else.

I mean, they're integrated
into the culture.

But they weren't, they weren't eradicated.

Rupert Isaacson: And are
they, oh, here we go.

I've got it.

It's T-E-H-U-E-L-C-H-E, te Welche people.

Patagonia.

Here we go.

And are they involved in, in
any way in the, in the Derby?

Stevie Delahunt: To my knowledge they're
not, but I think a lot of people that

work with us on the race down there
probably have some percentage bloodline

back to the native people there.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, it fascinating.

It would be, it would be
interesting to find out.

I, I think you're probably dead right?

It would be almost unthinkable that there
wouldn't be, you know, indigenous yeah.

Yeah.

Stevie Delahunt: You can see that in a
lot of people's facial structure down

there in the color of their skin and hair.

Rupert Isaacson: And there must be a
relationship with the land in that case.

So have you, have you, again, are there
certain individuals that sort of stand out

in the years that you've been doing this?

It's this old guy or
this old lady who's just.

Knows this about the plants and
knows this about the mountain.

Stevie Delahunt: You know, actually,
because it's such a harsh environment

down there, everyone that lives down
there is still connected to the land.

Mm-hmm.

And something I think is really
cool I've talked about with people

there is that I've noticed in really
harsh environments, the land gives

back during summer in a bigger way.

And what I mean by that is if it's
hard to exist in a climate, you'll

see that there's a lot, lot more of
the berries and fruits are edible.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Stevie Delahunt: And
that's the case down there.

There's something called the el
califate berry, and it's a plant

that it looks a lot like something
that would be in the fine Bos.

And that, that produces
lots of berries every year.

And there's another thing that's
colloquially called like horse apples,

but it's like these tiny little berries
that are grow along the ground and

the horses actually eat them as well.

But it's much like a LinkedIn berry and
the entire pompas are covered with those.

And I just noticed that the land gives
back in such a big way in Patagonia

because it has such tough winters.

And I've noticed that living in
environments where it snows, there's

often, often things are much more edible.

Whereas if it's a warm environment, you
may not get as much back from the land.

And that's, that's kind of talked
about in the culture there.

Like the land wants you to coexist.

It's trying to help you make
it through the winter by giving

you so much in the summer.

I.

Rupert Isaacson: Well that's an
interesting, it's it that raises an

interesting thing, which is that sort
of nature is actually always trying to

help one rather than hinder one, right?

Yeah.

Nature's actually always on one
side and that point, I think about

places that have brutal winters.

I think it's true in deserts too.

So desert edible plants often are much
more nutrient dense, so you can eat much

less of them, but get more nutrients
from them than in say, absolutely

Europe or Germany or Eastern USA, where
it's sort of more temperate climate.

This business of the nature's actually
always on one side except on the few

occasions when it decides to cull one off.

Your journeys with psilocybin
have you ha has this come

forward from the land to you?

Are there conversations with the
land, not just with the horses?

Stevie Delahunt: Yes.

Yes, there absolutely are.

Tell about

Rupert Isaacson: that.

Stevie Delahunt: I've actually been
addressed by this kind of self called the

tree nation and the trees on our property
back at home where I did a psilocybin

journey kept telling me disharmony,
I kept getting the word disharmony,

disharmony, disharmony and the land was.

Complaining about the management that
we had of horses on the, on the land.

Because okay, our large juniper
trees were all getting chewed

by the horses in winter.

And I kind of had to connect with
the trees in this experience.

And it was, it's sort of wild and
I still kind of question it, but

it felt really real in the moment
of having this recognition that

these trees are these whole beings.

But it felt almost like the wisdom
that you might feel when you're

around elephants, like these large
creatures that just looked down over

everything going on around them.

And I had this moment of realization
that that's like this trees

experience and how connected the
tree was to the land around them.

And I felt like I was being addressed
by the trees and they were telling

me to manage the horses better.

It was my fault for keeping them again
against sonic's wishes, confined in an

area and that they were chewing on the
trees, which was causing disharmony.

And so in that trip I was feeling that
I needed to do a better job of speaking

with the horses about what they wanted
and about the land with what it wanted.

And it was showing me as well that we have
like these thorn plants that grow like the

classic purple thorn plants that come up.

And it was saying, if you see
more of these, you know that

this area is being overgrazed.

I.

And, and I've like, so
this is the land saying it

Rupert Isaacson: to you?

Or this is research that you did?

Stevie Delahunt: This is the
land said it to me first, and

then I researched afterwards.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Stevie Delahunt: And it's kind of, it kind
of is a really interesting observation.

People have said like, as the land
where there's more prickly plants, it's

kind of the land protecting itself and
showing that there's been overgrazing

which I found to be interesting.

And it, it was true like in the pastures
that we had the horses in most often

that's where they were coming up.

And so I So what did

Rupert Isaacson: you do?

Did you, did you make a change?

Stevie Delahunt: I did
make a change, yeah.

I started, I actually just shut the
horses out of the one pasture where the

trees were that they had been chewing
on, but like opening up more pasture land

trying to manage where they were better.

We reseeded some of the areas, some
of the pastures and have slowly

like tried to, to manage our land
better and just use more of it.

Rupert Isaacson: Have the
trees given you a thumbs up?

Stevie Delahunt: I, I haven't
specifically gotten a thumbs up.

It wasn't as clear as the
thumbs down that I got.

Rupert Isaacson: Have you gone back and
asked and said, okay, lads, I did it.

Is this good?

Or do I need to do more?

Stevie Delahunt: I, I still feel
like that I have to do more.

Okay.

Like, I don't feel like we're
where we're at, so I've been

afraid to ask, to be honest.

Rupert Isaacson: So

with the feeling that you
have that you would do more.

So what, what are your plans?

I'm actually intrigued by this because
land management and the symbiosis of

humans with the land, of course, is
exactly how we're supposed to live.

And when it's good, I think we all
feel this in intrinsic sense of ease.

And when it's not good, we sure don't.

So if it's still niggling under your
skin, like yeah, but I still haven't

quite, you know, done what they like.

Have you, are you putting
together a strategy based upon

what the land has told you?

Stevie Delahunt: I am, yeah.

I'm, I'm actually like, I feel like
it's a really cool metaphor for how to

deal with coming together as society.

And what I mean by that is it is really
strange as Sonic the horse is pointing

out by wanting to be free roaming.

I, I've always thought it's
weird to own property, right?

Like we're all part of, I understand
why it has to happen in the society we

live in now, like why we have to put
up these arbitrary boundaries, but.

It is interesting, like how do you
fit what should be into the world

and structure that we live in?

And land management is a
little bit of metaphor for how

to come together in society.

Like there's so many
benefits of coming together.

But there's so many negatives.

And for example, being confined to
one space with your herd is not really

what, how we were meant to naturally be.

We were meant to be like Mongolia where
we can travel around and if there's

overgrazing, well, there really isn't
overgrazing because the horses move on.

Or if a place does get overgrazed, a horse
would die and there would be less horses

and then the, the grass could grow again.

And there'd always be that, that
natural seeking of homeostasis.

And now there's so many artificial
boundaries and separations that it

makes land management difficult.

And I, I am still researching,
trying to figure out how to

manage horses better over land.

And, and to be clear, we have eight horses
now, nine on the property that we're on,

and it's 25 acres and it's irrigated.

So there's quite a lot of space
and a lot of grass for them.

And I still, and that's like much
more than most anyone would have.

And I still feel like I'm ha I'm
not able to manage that well.

Rupert Isaacson: It seems that you
actually answered your own question

within what you just told me, but I'm
wondering if you can decipher that answer.

Stevie Delahunt: Probably, probably not.

I was gonna say, I feel today
in this conversation, so I've

just been at a wedding I'm at
my friend's wedding now, Uhhuh.

We're up until 4:00 AM this morning.

I was like, great, I have this podcast.

Wait, mushroom be articulate.

So I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to

Rupert Isaacson: Well, what what
strikes me from what you just said

is you were saying in a perfect world
you would move on and the herd would

move on when the land began to be
stressed by the carrying of the herd.

So why not be nomadic with your herd?

Stevie Delahunt: Yeah, I'm not sure.

I guess I don't know how to make
that happen in the US easily.

Trailers

Rupert Isaacson: and other
properties, I should imagine.

Stevie Delahunt: I don't
have that kind of money.

Rupert Isaacson: No, but you are connected
to community and there's BLM land out

there in the west, and do you think it
this might be an interesting project.

Do you think it might be possible
to live, and you talk about

community, human community, right?

Yeah.

So you have friends, you know, all
over the US and they have properties

and pastures and some of them are
in use and some of them are not.

And you can, in the old days,
one would've, you know, ridden

one's horses and herded the rest.

But probably a shorter distance.

But perhaps the same number of hours
that it would take to go that shorter

distance in your local area you could
do with a trailer somewhere else.

Stevie Delahunt: Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean actually that, is that a

Rupert Isaacson: potential, you know,

Stevie Delahunt: that is
actually what we're looking into.

So to be clear, in summer we
have actually too much grass.

Mm-hmm.

Some of our horses even with
endurance racing, a couple of our

horses are almost obese, right?

And so managing them is really difficult.

And this is, this problem's arising
over winter when they're like

overgrazing what's left on the ground.

And so we have actually talked about,
we live in a bus so we rent this

beautiful property from an amazing
landlord who lets us be there.

And we live in a bus so we
could be totally mobile.

And we've actually talked about this.

We, we wanna go south for the
winter for the horse's sake.

They don't enjoy being in the
snow and neither do I really.

Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

Stevie Delahunt: So we
have looked into that.

And you know, actually the Bend
Oregon communities really wonderful

and we've often had people reach out
knowing that we have lots of horses and

said, Hey, I have this extra pasture.

Do you need any grass?

Rupert Isaacson: Oh, that's wonderful.

Stevie Delahunt: Yeah.

So there is that in the community there.

Rupert Isaacson: That's
almost un-American.

Stevie Delahunt: It's very, yeah.

No, it's amazing.

We have bend organs truly Great.

Rupert Isaacson: I guess, you know
what, what I'm feeling for here is

people often say, or one read sometimes
that humans are naturally nomadic.

And I think it's true.

I think many mammals are including
mammals that have fixed territories.

And we are mammals actually
with fixed territories.

Humans tend to move in a sort of a square

with each season.

So each equinox is, while there's
rain over there, things are growing

over there, and then yeah, dries
up and then you go up there and now

things are good in the foothills,
and then you go up to the higher

mountains and things are good up there.

For those summer months and
then, oops, getting cold.

So then you go back down and
there's your autumn camp, and

then there's your winter camp, and
then you begin the process again.

And this, whether that is over a
geographically smallish area because it's

nutrient dense or whether that's over a
bigger area 'cause it's not we and other

animals seem to naturally want to do that.

And yeah, if we can't do that and
we don't do that, I do actually

believe our mental health suffers.

And I, I remember getting the feeling
sometimes when I was living in Texas,

you know, it's just so ridiculously
hot in the summer, like crazy hot.

Yeah.

You know, for months and months and
months and months and months and you're

working outside, you know, with the
horses and thinking, I don't think

that the indigenous people did this.

I think they buggered off
when it got like this.

And absolutely.

Sure enough, yeah.

I started, you know, researching it.

Yes.

The bison would come all the way
down to the coast and then they

would go north as it got hotter
and you would kind of follow them.

You might not follow them to Alaska, but
you'd certainly follow them a certain

distance to higher elevations and, you
know, and that would make perfect sense.

And now we don't, now we stick
around loneliness, depression,

boredom, where we began.

You know, you

Stevie Delahunt: Well, we stick
around if we feel we have to.

Right.

Look at all the people that feel that
they have that financial freedom.

Snowbirds almost everywhere, right?

Like they

Rupert Isaacson: migrate.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

First thing that people do when
they get a lot of money, they

buy houses in different places.

Stevie Delahunt: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: And they sort of
seasonally migrate between them.

Absolutely.

They basically just go back to being
a hunter gatherer just on a yacht.

Yeah.

Stevie Delahunt: Yeah.

No, that's absolutely true.

And you know, my husband and I have
talked a lot about our mental health

suffering in winter and we're both,
we both feel like we wanna go back

to South Africa in the winter and
that's exactly what we did this year.

I went down to Argentina
for part of this winter.

But we wanna include our horses in that.

So our eventual move is the idea
to be in Bend in the summer and

down south somewhere in winter.

'cause I think have you read the
book, the Comfort Crisis by Chance?

I

Rupert Isaacson: have not,
but I have heard of it.

But talk to us about it.

Stevie Delahunt: Yeah, that's a
fantastic book and it talks a lot about

like the origin of humans and happy,
basically the pursuit of happiness

by going back to our roots and it
talks in there about like how we are

built to be a slow endurance animal.

And when I was reading that, I really
made the connection with horses.

It's really interesting that
humans and horses have the.

Advantage of sweating.

This sounds crazy and I I was very aware
of it when I was riding a reindeer.

So reindeer pant, dogs pant like
almo, a lot of animals cool themselves

by panting, which is very limiting.

You can't you can only exert
yourself for short periods of time.

Like a, even dogs, like, there's some
dogs that are really great at running

distances, but you'll notice that like on
hot days, like I have a Belgian Malis and

she is super athletic, but she struggles
in the heat because she pants to cool off.

Mm.

Now horses can do things like Tevis
which is a big a hundred mile endurance

race, and it can get as hot as
120 degrees of parts of the races,

parts of the race in the canyons.

And the horses can endure that.

So humans and horses have
this advantage of sweating.

And in the book it's talk, it
talks a lot about how humans

can sweat and travel over time.

It talks briefly about horses being
connected to humans over time and this

endurance connection that we have.

And now I've just lost
my, or was going with

Rupert Isaacson: this.

Stevie Delahunt: Well, I
think it's, it's an interest.

Oh.

Think about the comfort

Rupert Isaacson: crisis.

Yeah.

Stevie Delahunt: Yes.

I think that it's just an interesting
realization that we were meant to travel

together and it's cool that these two
species, horses and humans have found

each other over time, and that we are
the two species meant for endurance.

Meant to, that can do many,
many miles over over many days.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Unlike

Stevie Delahunt: most other species.

And so I think we were meant to travel
together and, you know, horses and dogs

have been domesticated for so long, and
look at how that integration happens.

Like we've, we've domesticated each
other, like we've, horses are such an

integral part of our history, and I, I
feel that we were meant to nomadically

travel together, just like in Mongolia.

Rupert Isaacson: I kind of agree.

I'm about to do this myself.

So, we, I'm in Germany.

We keep our horses out all year,
and right now it's February as

we are recording this, I am.

Several times a day swimming through
Poo Lake and climbing Poo Mountain and

hopping from poo ice flow to poo ice flow.

Mm-hmm.

And we were in, we weren't

Stevie Delahunt: meant to live
like that Well, or in that

Rupert Isaacson: we are cold adapted and
we're heat adapted, we're all adapted,

and at the same time, if we can possibly
do what the birds do and fly south.

I, I was watching the cranes flying
over the last couple of days.

Climate change.

They're coming earlier.

They are coming earlier than they used to.

This would normally have been more
winter than it's been the last few years.

So they're coming earlier and
earlier, but nonetheless, they

fly south and then they fly north.

And so that's exactly what we're gonna do.

The land mass of Europe extend south.

So Spain, summer winter, Germany summer.

Why not?

Now someone might say, well,
you, how do you do that?

If you have a job, if you have that
kind of stability, the only way you

can do that is if you make it your job.

And of course, to be a nomad, to be
a hunter gatherer, that is your job.

That's the economy.

Yeah.

And if that's the economy that's,
indigenous to humanity, because we

talk about indigenous people, but we're
actually all indigenous people because

we're all indigenous to this planet.

And you know, in terms of colonialization,
one can say, oh, well there were the

indigenous people in this area that the
Europeans or whoever moved to, but the

Europeans are still indigenous in Europe.

And that never changed.

So we're all indigenous.

This semi nomadism, which sort of ended
with agriculture about 10,000 years

ago, it seems that the four horsemen of
the apocalypse rode in right with that.

And that engendered all kinds of
competition and overpopulation and so on.

But to be nomadic means that you do
have to give up certain securities.

Easier said than done,
particularly in our modern era.

So when people say, well, I can't
do that, I absolutely believe them.

And I I say, yeah, no, I get it.

I get, I get that you can't.

Nonetheless, would we be happier if
we did and I kind of think we would.

So from my personal point of view, I
would trade certain luxuries for that.

But then again, I'm
also like your husband.

British, south African.

So it's a little bit in the genetic, I
think, to kind of go to other places.

Yeah.

So it's, it's intriguing to me
that you're, you're gonna do that.

Where, where down south are you gonna go?

And, and what, what's
your, what's your plan?

Stevie Delahunt: Just an aside,
as you were saying this, have

you read the book, Ishmael?

Rupert Isaacson: Yes, I have.

Stevie Delahunt: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It reminded me of what
you were saying now.

Rupert Isaacson: In what way?

Yeah, just for, for, for
listeners who haven't read it.

Yeah.

Why

Stevie Delahunt: Ishmael talks about
what Rupert was just saying talks about

how the restoration of the planet is
probably going to come through a return

to that indigenous idea of being more
connected to the earth and to the

seasons as we're talking about cycling.

And probably wanting less.

So as you're talking about this
nomadic lifestyle, I think that

capitalism has really instilled a
belief of scarcity or capitalized

on our brains feeling of scarcity.

And something I've learned to
start accepting is abundance,

the law of abundance and
the, the belief in abundance.

And it's really interesting that we
all think we're not gonna have enough

probably coming from, stemming from
the idea that we're not enough, right?

Like it's an internal journey
that's externalized, I find that

if you're still alive at this point
and you are, if you're listening,

then your life has been abundant.

You have had enough

Rupert Isaacson: sure to be

Stevie Delahunt: alive.

And abundance really
means just having enough.

It doesn't mean having an excess
and excess comes from, which is

kind of a hoarding situation.

And I think almost anyone living in a,
in western society has way more than

they need which is proof that if you have
way more than you need, then you have

enough to share with many other people.

So I think this world is really
abundant for everyone to exist.

And I think letting go of this idea
of scarcity will help us to return

to being our more natural selves.

And, and that's where this nomadic
lifestyle, this letting go of these

so-called or, or felt securities ends up.

Grading.

Sorry, I'm just saw your
video in the background.

Rupert Isaacson: You got
my little sun coming?

Yeah.

That little blonde head.

Stevie Delahunt: Woo.

Yeah.

Yeah, well he's,

Rupert Isaacson: he's, he's busy
seeking abundance currently.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Ah, yes.

Stevie Delahunt: One of my
favorite activities as well.

Yeah, I think if we let go
of this attachment to the, to

scarcity or this attachment to
our overall, our suffering, right?

Like we, we think we're not enough.

We think we don't have enough.

If we start to let go of that and just
trust in the universe and trust in the

process and the journey we can do things
like be nomadic, be more connected, let go

of all these extras that we do not need.

And I think that will make a shift
in humanity if we can do that.

And,

Rupert Isaacson: but what is
tricky for that and what, what

everyone would say is, I, I presume
you're not yet a parent, right?

There was no still my little one there.

So, you know, I think for many
people, quite justifiably, the

argument to that is, well,
once you've got kids,

Stevie Delahunt: yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: But
interestingly, I never bought that.

I got three kids and I always
thought, well, yes, it absolutely will

affect the way in which you travel.

I, yeah.

You've got to travel
completely with them in mind.

You cannot I tried for like five seconds
to travel with my own previous agendas

in travel when I had my first kid.

You know, your ask gets handed to you
and you're like, okay, yeah, absolutely.

Got it.

Yeah, yeah.

It will be all about you got it?

Yes.

Yeah.

But let's still go because of
course from, from a, from a child's

perspective nomism is also natural.

As long as you're with your people
and you're making camp every night

with your people and your people
understand how to create abundance out

of what's around, then you're okay.

Yeah.

It's about community, right?

So then, but then we say, oh yeah, but
what about schools and what about a job?

And now suddenly, as you say, it's back.

Interesting what you talked about,
Ishmael, that that book, it seems that

we may, are we maybe on the cusp of this
now that suddenly post Covid digital

nomadism homeschooling online schooling.

I just recently did a, a podcast with
an interesting, interesting lady called

Lainey Liberty, who thought she was taking
a year off with her kid back in 2008.

And they just kept going.

And now he's all grown up.

But they made a whole economy out of this.

She gave up her business, gave up her.

And invented basically a genre called
World Schooling, and now they're

these world schooling conferences.

So it, it is interesting.

I, I think you're right that
actually one can do this, but it

takes a paradigm shift internally.

Maybe that's where your
psilocybin comes in.

Does it help with that?

Can it help with that?

Stevie Delahunt: I, yeah, I think so.

I feel I feel really connected to
what you're saying and having kids,

because I teach a lot of kids and
I have some really amazing parents.

And all these, like 80% of the
parents are homeschooling their kids

that have their kids riding with me.

And they're, they're rewriting the
way they wanna educate their kids.

They want them connected
to nature in the outdoors.

Like, there's an amazing family
that has five kids and they all

are in riding lessons with me.

And they come out twice a week
and they're involved in every

aspect of caring for horses.

And I just so admire how this family
is going about their education.

And I think that they're a family
that if they could, they would

also be nomadically traveling.

And I think, I think I am seeing
a shift, especially in the

culture around where I live.

Like it's a very privileged
town to put it nicely.

And so with those privileges,
people are looking for the

healthiest way to live, and it is.

Traveling, it is homeschooling.

And with that homeschooling there is,
there is living in multiple places.

Even this family of five, they
have a home in Hawaii, and they

often travel there during winter.

So they're also chasing the sunlight

Rupert Isaacson: right

Stevie Delahunt: around the world.

And that this whole new idea of educating
kids in the world and traveling with

kids in the world really calls to me.

That's what I'm hoping to shift my
business into is connecting kids

back to nature through horses.

And I, you know, the book, the Line
Trackers Guide to Life, there's a sentence

in there that's Boyd Verdi's book.

Rupert Isaacson: Boyd Vati.

Yeah.

I was wondering if it was him.

Yeah.

Stevie Delahunt: He has a single
sentence in there that just

resonated so deeply with me.

And it was a, the restoration of
the planet will only come through a

profound shift in human consciousness.

And I think that this environmental
concern that I have deep down I is a

realization that you have to change
what's in here to change what's out there.

And I've just pointed to my
heart and then put my hand out.

So like, you have to change your
insides to change the outsides.

And I think in working with
kids and connecting them back to

nature, like you can't care about
something you don't understand.

Rupert Isaacson: For sure.

And

Stevie Delahunt: so I think

Rupert Isaacson: absolutely.

We, we have a, a, a thing as you
know, the, the work I do with

special needs and education.

So we have a, a fun
thing we do every fall.

I thought, you know, why, why
would, why do kids, why would I

expect kids to care about forest?

Right?

Because they're not in the forest.

Like, yeah.

Yeah.

So though, okay they're in the city,
but there are trees in the city.

So what we do now is we go out in the
fall sometimes and we fill up bags of

acorns and chestnuts and things that
are falling on concrete that will not

get a chance to, to put down roots and
then take them out to the country and

gorilla, plant them along, fence line.

Oh, cool.

And all you gotta do is put them
in like one inch of your thumb

in, and about 75% of them come up.

It's really interesting.

And we've been doing that for, I
started doing it in Texas 20 years ago.

So now they're all these banks
along my old fence lines in Texas,

which are like 30, 40 feet high now.

Oh wow.

And you're like, wow, it actually works.

I agree with you that people can only
value what they know and what they've

also helped to create a nurture.

So without that relationship with the
land, how and why would anybody care?

And then people think, well,
yes, but I live in the city, or

I haven't got an access to now I
don't own land, or I can't travel.

Or those people have a big house in
Hawaii, but it's not about own land.

It's not about having
a big house in Hawaii.

You can travel, you can be
nomadic within your own continent.

If you change your economy, you can
gather acorns from the concrete and

plant 'em along a fence line somewhere.

It's, it doesn't matter the scale.

It seems to just matter for
the human heart that we do.

So you talked about a change in
here, you pointed to your heart.

So what change are you making
in your heart with this would be

sort of a, a, a good closing thing
of where, where are we going?

Where, where are you going?

If you, you are looking to make change.

It's hard to make change unless
one is making a change in oneself,

otherwise one hasn't really got
the tools to lead that change.

Obviously you've made many
changes in yourself, but what

change are you working on now?

Stevie Delahunt: Hmm.

That's a good question.

I think I'll just go back to, I
have quite a, a few little mantras

I say to myself every morning and I
always say, how can I be more kind?

How can I be more loving?

I.

And then I ask myself
how I can cherish more.

I've stolen that from my
friend Kansas Carradine.

Who got it.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

She's wonderful.

Yeah, she's

Stevie Delahunt: wonderful.

So shout out to her.

She is a good friend and a bit of a guide.

There's another human
that's a guide in my life.

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

Yes.

I, she's a good mentor.

And for those listening
there's a podcast with her.

Look for that live free ride Free worth.

Listen.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay.

So she says to cherish,
that's interesting.

To cherish.

And what, what do you
mean by cherish what?

Stevie Delahunt: I think it ties back.

So again, I also say like,
remember your sense of wonder.

And I think to me, cherish is having
a sense of wonder about an individual.

Like just truly loving and seeing and like
seeing in the sense of really observing

without intent another individual.

And I love, I just love that word
because that's what I really feel.

That's

Rupert Isaacson: intent.

That's good.

Without wanting me back.

Stevie Delahunt: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like they say like
there's two types of love.

The one that's like trading and giving

Rupert Isaacson: transactional Yeah,

Stevie Delahunt: yeah.

Transactional love.

And like you, I actually realized
that a lot of love growing up

and for me was transactional.

Like I expected something
that, and by the way, nature

Rupert Isaacson: puts it that way.

It's not necessarily a bad thing.

Like people talk about the
human ego being a bad thing.

It's put there by nature.

Transactions are put survival by nature.

Yeah.

It's not necessarily bad, but
maybe it doesn't nurture the

heart as much as others do.

Yeah.

Stevie Delahunt: And, and I
recognize that I am in a place of

privilege, like my needs are met.

Like I'm not gonna probably die easily.

So I have the luxury of being
able to have a giving love.

Like I have an abundance of
wealth, which means like I'm

healthy and I have resources.

So that puts me at a economic
or energetic advantage.

So I have the ability to have a giving
love where I don't expect anything back.

And I think there's something in like,
repeating this idea of cherishing is

like, I really try to go forward and give
that to other individuals in my life.

Here, here's a small example.

I like to give little examples of
things people can do every day.

If you can start your day and
have your own mantras that make

sense to you a small, very I.

I guess this is very
pertinent for our times.

A small thing that I like
to do in the morning is I do

use social media for my job.

And I think it's can be a platform
for so many negative things.

But I try to genuinely make 10
comments that I genuinely, truly mean.

And I try to send out 10 positive
comments on social media every

morning, and then I just turn it off.

Like that's, that's my interaction,
like I'm done until I have to do

like some sort of advertising for
my own business or interaction.

But I, I try to look, find stories that
really resonate with me, see and cherish

that individual for the experience
they're having and give them a, a line

of encouragement or just like, I see
what you're doing and it's amazing.

And so that's like a small, small little
ritual I have every morning, and that's

like, gets me, starts to build that habit.

Trolling, cherishing, what's that?

Rupert Isaacson: Positive trolling.

Stevie Delahunt: Yes.

Positive trolling.

Exactly.

Rupert Isaacson: That's that's lovely.

Yes.

I, I, I so agree.

I, if I, the first thing I look
at on social media is something

called Good News Network.

And if I, when I see something good
on it, I send it to people, you know?

Stevie Delahunt: Yeah.

I, I actually have that too.

Rupert Isaacson: It's,
it's a wonderful thing.

I used to go straight on and look at the
Ukraine war, and then I realized that

it was depressing me, and I still look
at the Ukraine war, but first I look at.

Good news network.

You talked about social media.

How do people find you and if they want
to come and do the derby with you, and

if they want to come to Bend Oregon
and drop mushrooms with you and talk to

trees and if they want to do stuff with
horses with you, how do they find you?

Stevie Delahunt: So, our business
because of both the psilocybin and

the horses and the perspective of
the ridiculousness of it all, our

business name is intergalactic equine.

So we're at intergalactic equine.com.

But the best way to reach
me is through Facebook's.

I'm Stevie Della Hunt, or
Instagram is the absolute best.

And that's at adventurous Barbie.

Rupert Isaacson:
Adventurous, not adventurous,

Stevie Delahunt: right?

Rupert Isaacson: Adventurist?

Stevie Delahunt: Yeah.

Adventurous Barbie.

And I got that name because
I had so many clothes.

Not really 'cause I'm blonde or anything,
or have any sort of Barbie proportions.

It's more because I just have
an outfit for everything.

Rupert Isaacson: I, I, I,
I have aspirations to be an

adventurous Barbie myself.

I'll, I'll see.

Acquire more clothes.

But, okay, so Instagram,
adventurist Barbie.

Mm-hmm.

Intergalactic equine.com.

Dot com.

Perfect.

I think I'm gonna come and explore
psilocybin in the mountains

of eastern Oregon with you.

That would

Stevie Delahunt: be amazing.

Okay.

Rupert Isaacson: I would,

Stevie Delahunt: I would love
to have a conversation on a day.

I wasn't up until four

the night before.

Rupert Isaacson: I'm up for it.

I'm up for it.

Stevie Delahunt: Amazing.

Rupert Isaacson: All right.

Well thank you so much for coming on
and I look forward to the next time.

Stevie Delahunt: I do as well.

Thank you so much.

I enjoyed this so much.

Rupert Isaacson: Likewise.

And

Stevie Delahunt: quick shout out
to Amanda Marini for connecting us.

She's amazing.

I just wanted to say that.

Rupert Isaacson: Yes, our mutual
friend Amanda Menini another nomad

Italian academic living in Colorado
and Italy and making people feel

happy and healed all over the world.

I think Amanda,

Stevie Delahunt: ah,
she's such a cheerleader.

She is.

Come and done a bootcamp with me and she
was just like, you have to talk to Rupert.

Like you guys would connect
on so many levels and yeah.

What a wonderful cheerleader of a human.

And there there's a good example
of someone cherishing other people.

Rupert Isaacson: I would agree.

I would agree.

And, and and really being able to take
pleasure in the achievements of others.

Yeah, that's a rare quality I can imagine.

It really

Stevie Delahunt: is beautiful human being.

Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.

Alright, well thank you and
yeah, until the next time.

Stevie Delahunt: Thank you so much.

I really appreciate it.

Rupert Isaacson: Likewise.

As you know, if you followed any of
my work, I'm an autism dad and we have

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When my son, Rowan, was
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