Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Live Free
Ride Free, where we talk to people who

have lived self-actualized lives on
their own terms, and find out how they

got there, what they do, how we can
get there, what we can learn from them.

How to live our best lives, find
our own definition of success,

and most importantly, find joy.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.

New York Times bestselling
author of the Horse Boy.

Founder of New Trails Learning
Systems and long ride home.com.

You can find details of all our programs
and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.

Today on Live Free, Ride
Free, I've got Rebecca Didier.

For those of you who like horse books
and A lot of us like horse books.

We'll know the publishing house Trafalgar
Square in the USA based out of Vermont.

They've sort of managed to become
the publishers of equestrian books in

the USA over the last 20, 30 years.

And they're List is really interestingly
eclectic, people who know the horse

world a bit, know that it can be very

stratified and judgmental of itself and
factional and often, frankly, I have

to say, as somebody who is involved
in the horse world, it can, it can

be toxic and, but Trafalgar Square is
really interesting, it doesn't pander

to that it has managed to publish
across the genres within the horse world

with an extreme sort of fair mindedness
and really home in on some of the

more humanly warm writers and people
and trainers within that world.

Which means, of course, that the
people behind Trafalgar Square are not

constrained to only thinking about horses
despite the fact that they publish them.

And Rebecca Didier, who's
sitting here in front of me.

Looking like she's just stepped
off the stage with Fleetwood

Mac doubling for Stevie Nicks.

Everyone should have their own
inner Stevie Nicks, I know I do.

Has been with them, I think,
for over 20 years now, and has

really shaped this industry.

really extraordinary end
of the publishing world.

So if you're interested in horses, if
you're interested in publishing, if you're

interested in story, if you're interested
in how books get made, if you're

interested in how to get your book made,
if you're interested in The writing and

co writing and even ghostwriting process.

You kind of want to know
and listen to Rebecca.

So, Rebecca, thank you for coming on.

Can you tell us a little bit
about who you are and what you do?

Rebecca Didier: Well, thanks
for having me, Rupert.

What a pleasure to join you here.

Yes, I have worked for Trafalgar
Square Books for 23 years

now, which is incredible.

Not in a General outward sense, but just
in a personal sense, reflecting on how

in the world that's two decades past.

And that is the equivalent now of
hundreds of books that I've worked

on and it was never an intention
or a goal of mine to work on horse

books or to help publish horse books.

But somehow I ended up here.

I'm the managing editor.

I've, I've been in this position now
for the majority of my time there.

Having kind of risen up, it's a small
company, but I did start just as an

assistant and new horses came from
a writing background in college.

knew I wanted to work with words and was
kind of mentored by the publisher Carolyn

Robbins, who had started the company.

And at the time, Martha Cook, who's
the managing director there also,

and they kind of led me through and,
and I ended up now, basically I work

with, I have worked with, and I work
with all of our authors from start

to finish of the book acquisition
kind of, determining book shape.

Book vision in many cases I do
writing or rewriting for our, our

authors I often help them come up
with ideas for titles, I design the

covers, I art direct the interiors.

I basically, I put my heart and soul
into every book quite literally.

Rupert Isaacson: But listen, you're
talking to a writer here and I work,

have worked obviously with many
publishers have written a bunch of

books and large and small publishers,
but generally there's people doing all

the jobs that you're talking about.

How on earth, how many books
are you publishing a year?

Rebecca Didier: So it's usually
around 20, which is a lot.

For all of those steps, which would
also, and I'm going to go ahead and be

really honest, explain why I'm usually a
little bit behind although I'm forgiven,

usually, and when the end result is
in somebody's hands, all is forgiven.

It, it's funny.

I often tell people that
I'm just never bored.

And that's true.

I have never, I can look back on these
two decades in this job and in this role

and in this industry, and I can honestly
tell you, I have never for a second.

Then board drummed my fingers on
a table and said, I have no idea

what to do with myself right now.

And it's also a constant source
of growth in, in different ways.

Yes, there are the tangible
tangible is not the right term.

The technical ways, for example,
the fact that my software updates

every 6 months and I have to
reteach myself how to use it.

So there's that ever present challenge.

But then I like to say that editing books,
and that's any books, not just horse

books, is the constant lesson in humility.

And so I'm always growing, I
think, in that aspect of of helping

somebody else make what they're
envisioning in their dream come alive.

And, and you simply being a conduit.

rather than ramrodding something into
the shape that I might want most.

So finding that happy medium.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

I mean, but like I say, I've, in the
publishing houses that I've worked with,

generally, there are a bunch of people
doing those jobs that you're doing.

How do you find the time?

How do you not get overwhelmed?

And how do you not, how do
you keep the standard up?

Because you would think that naturally
with one person having to do all of

that onto any books a year, there'd
be some dilution of quality, yet it

doesn't seem so looking at the books.

Rebecca Didier: Well,
thank you for saying that.

So yes, that is, we do all four of us
at Trafalgar, and there are four now.

We have had more employees at
different times in the past, but

we are currently four full time,
and all of us wear many hats.

So all of us share in the different roles.

Martha Cook, who runs the
business, also proofreads at night.

Lizzie Gray, who's our assistant
editor, she'll edit some of our

translations, for example, who, when
we've had a really strong equestrian

translator involved, then she's a
real sharp eyed proofreader and copy

editor, so she can kind of take it.

And so we do share those burdens there.

It's, it's not nine to five
and it's not 40 hours a week.

That's the simple answer to the question.

Rupert Isaacson: You have to live it.

Rebecca Didier: And we do, we, we
do, if you compared us to say your

publisher or a bigger publisher where
we do fail and I, and I use that term

with air quotes because it's, it's,
It's it's not a fall on your face fail.

It's just I'm observing and saying
it would be wonderful to do better is

in the marketing of publicity arena
because usually there's a department

and a budget and those are places where.

Where we don't necessarily have muscle.

Yeah, but

Rupert Isaacson: your books are
known as, I mean, Trafalgar Square is

known as within the USA at any rate,
sort of the equestrian publisher.

So you've clearly managed to position
that through the quality of the books.

And therefore the marketing to some
degree happens because of your name now.

Yeah, you, the, the, the.

The company stays alive, so you
can't be that bad at marketing.

Where, where do you think you're not
being so good given that everyone

in the equestrian world knows?

You're the kind of go to publisher.

Rebecca Didier: I love this question,
and our brand is really strong.

I feel we've really built it,
especially within the sphere

that we're most comfortable in.

You know, Martha and I are horse
people, so we're out there in that, in

that world often mixing and mingling
and spreading the word and selling

our books and talking to authors.

I mean, we, we know
horses, we love horses.

We can be part of that.

I think that I sometimes wail in
frustration that I can't get my authors on

Good Morning America, as you know, I have,
I have a couple of authors of remarkable

writing talent who have told stories that
are comparable to those that you might

see listed as New York Times bestsellers,
simply because they had in the past.

A bigger publisher who could demand
that, that who can open those gates

and, and the truth of the matter
is, is that I can, I'll own that.

We don't, we don't have that golden key.

You can hire a publicist, a publicist
who can help you do that, but we

don't, we don't hold that key.

Rupert Isaacson: Are you guys know
when you go on your website, it looks

like you're working out of a book.

Beautiful farm in rural Vermont.

Is that true?

Is that where you guys

Rebecca Didier: It is it is that it,
those pictures are accurate and true

.
Rupert Isaacson: So, so do you all have
horses in the backfield and you go out

at lunchtime and ride your horses or,

Rebecca Didier: so it's no longer true
that that happens, but when Martha started

and she started I think 36 years ago, so
she outdate me predates me, her horse.

Was actually in the barn downstairs
because my office is above a you

know, a walkout barn, old cow barn
that was made into a horse barn.

And so when we, I walked down the stairs,
there are horse stalls down there,

although now they used to have horses
have a boarding business and breed horses

at Trafalgar Square Farm, but now they
just have Scottish Highland cattle.

So there are cows.

Rupert Isaacson: Why no more horses?

I mean, why not?

Why not wander down at
lunchtime and ride your horse?

I I would feel so much more romantically
Filled in my in my mind if I thought

you guys were all doing that.

Rebecca Didier: Yeah Well, remember
that whole not enough time in the

day to get all the books done.

So We don't have time for that kind
of, although Martha and I do, Martha

has horses on her own property and
we do ride together on the weekends,

usually to, to capture that, you know,
that, that granular piece of, of being

horse people, but really the Carolyn
and Ted, the publishers who originally

had horses on the farm, they, they're
just older now, and they're in their

eighties and they can't take care
of horses at night and go down for,

you know, nighttime hay, and there's
just a point sometimes where horses

in Vermont in the winter aren't fine.

Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

I have, I have, I've, I've trained,
I've done horses in Quebec.

Rebecca Didier: Then you know.

Rupert Isaacson: I know a little
bit about this large white thing

that gets physically between
you and where you need to go.

Rebecca Didier: Frozen water buckets
changed me as a child, you know,

Rupert Isaacson: mind you here in
Germany where I'm interviewing you

from we have a fair share of those too.

Yeah.

But yeah when I'm breaking the ice
on those things, I'm, I'm not, I'm

not wishing I was doing more of it,

although I can appreciate the beauty.

All right.

So look tell us a little, obviously
Live Free Ride Free is about being

self actualized and you, you guys seem
that way and that you've together,

you know, created this brand, this,
this thing that people really look

to and trust for getting information
inspiration within the horse world, but

let's take you back to your childhood.

People often ask me when I'm
being interviewed, you know,

how do you become a writer?

How do you become a, a storyteller, or,
you know, where did it begin for you?

And, you know, for me, it's like I
can never remember a time I wasn't.

But I can remember when I sort of
made my decision to go, all right,

that's sort of what I'm going to do.

And being very scared about it.

And then, you know, taking that leap.

Where were you born?

Where are you brought up?

How, how has that brought
you to where you are?

Can you start at the beginning, please?

Rebecca Didier: I can.

I was born in Sheboygan, Wisconsin,
and I wasn't there for very long.

Just I think about a year and a half
before my parents moved to Florida.

And I was there for the
first eight years of my life.

And most of those years that I remember,
I was Extremely distraught that we lived

in a suburb, a suburb in Florida, where
I couldn't have a horse and I can't

explain it's like all the other stories
you hear from people all the time.

I can't explain why or where it came from.

I literally lived in a tight
neighborhood in Florida with chain link

fences and little, you know, typical

Rupert Isaacson: Florida.

Okay,

Rebecca Didier: kind of, New Smyrna
Beach was our, my childhood beach,

Rupert Isaacson: because I mean, obviously
parts of Florida are massively horsey.

Absolutely.

Rebecca Didier: Mine was, mine was not,
although there was when I begged, I do

remember the first time I got to ride
one, which was a pony on the side of

the road on the way to New Smyrna Beach.

That was there for, pony rides, and I
think I was three, there's a picture of

me, and then there was a farm when I was
five there was a farm that my parents

took me to, where I started to learn to
ride horses, but in Florida, I, I have,

before the memories of riding horses, I
remember being at the library, and being

on the floor in the library, just pulling
the books off the shelves, and reading,

right there in the library, because I
couldn't wait, you know, To take the

books and check them out and go home.

And then also hating it that I had a limit
on the number of books that I could take.

Rupert Isaacson: You describe
me as someone that hates limits.

Rebecca Didier: That's true, I've
been fighting them my entire life.

Rupert Isaacson: But what, okay,
who are your folks, who are

your parents, what do they do?

Rebecca Didier: Well, my father at
the time he was working when I was

very little, he was working at a gas
station and my mother was a stay at

home mom when we were in Florida.

And then when I was nine, we moved to
Vermont, which is where I call home.

And usually when somebody asks me where
I grew up, I will say Vermont, because

that's when my life really began, mostly
because I got a horse, but and my father

became he worked for one of the first
micro breweries, which means something

now, but back then it was like an oddity.

He was, sure.

How did he,

Rupert Isaacson: how did he.

Go from working in a gas station to micro
in Florida to a microbrewery in Vermont.

That's a massive cultural shift.

What, what happened?

Rebecca Didier: So he was in the
Navy and he was a machinist in

the Navy and very mechanical.

And the fact that he was very
mechanical, a new engines farm boy

from Wisconsin, that's why he worked
in a gas station and then the job at.

This tiny little microbrewery that
was starting up in Vermont called

Catamount Brewing Company, which was
then bought by Harpoon for anybody

who knows anything about beer.

Oh, yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: I know

Rebecca Didier: Harpoon.

He was the fourth person hired and he
was their production manager and he

had to build the bottling line, which
at the time was a Coca Cola bottling

line that was at the old glass bottles.

And he had to refit it to work with
beer bottles because that was before

cans became a thing and everybody.

You know, everybody drank
their beer out of real beer.

Beer came in bottles.

Rupert Isaacson: Was your
dad a craft beer dude?

Rebecca Didier: He was a beer dude.

And then he did become you
know, more of a connoisseur of

Rupert Isaacson: What year was this?

Rebecca Didier: It was 1987,

1986.

Rupert Isaacson: And how old were you?

Rebecca Didier: I was nine.

Is that right?

Were you nine then?

Yeah, 1986 would be right.

I was, I was

Rupert Isaacson: hitchhiking across
Zimbabwe and Botswana then, I remember.

Rebecca Didier: So you were
not drinking our craft beer.

I was not, I

Rupert Isaacson: was
drinking Lion and Castle.

But when I first went to train horses in
America as an illegal immigrant under the

table in Virginia, as many English and
Irish boys did There was no craft beer and

I remember, you know, coming to America,
the beer is shite, you know, it's like

really shite, like Jesus Christ, you know,
and then suddenly the beer got really good

and that, but it was only when I moved
to California in gosh, what was it in the

mid nineties, you know, and then suddenly
fantastic beer was everywhere, but I

was very aware that there were these.

older East Coast brewing
companies that had.

So it's very interesting that your
father was in at the birth of that.

Where did, did, where did he go with this?

Did he, did he stay in brewing?

Did he?

Rebecca Didier: He stayed at Catamount,
which also was one of my first paying

jobs and my brother's first paying jobs.

Rupert Isaacson: Were you a taster?

Rebecca Didier: I made six pack carriers.

Rupert Isaacson: Did you?

Rebecca Didier: They come all folded up
and so when I was in third grade because

my parents didn't have child care, they
would bring us to the brewery and we

would make six pack hairs and make huge
pyramids of them beside the conveyor belt.

And we were in there in the mix and
there was loud music playing and

the guys who worked on the line were
having a grand old time back then and

Rupert Isaacson: Beers and tattoos.

Rebecca Didier: Beers and tattoos.

There's all kinds.

I could, this would take us, I
mean, I could tell all kinds of

stories about the old brewery days.

But yeah, so my dad was there until
Catamount was purchased by Harpoon, which

I was in college when that happened.

So in the 90s and then he went on to kind
of have just one more job in a different

plant again, being a machinist of sorts
and left kind of microbrew world behind.

But, yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: And are
your parents still around?

Are they still in Vermont?

Rebecca Didier: They are.

They're in the home that
That again, I call home.

It wasn't the first place that we
lived in Vermont, but it's a log

home that my father basically built.

So every cabinet, every floor, every
aspect of it is a, it's a little rustic,

but it literally, I, I don't know how
many people say that anymore that they're

in a home that their father built.

So the.

The log home came and they put the
logs up and then there were empty studs

inside and then we moved in and then
my dad slowly built it all around us.

And I think it was
finished about 8 years ago,

Rupert Isaacson: like officially

Rebecca Didier: finished.

You're

Rupert Isaacson: going to say last week,

Rebecca Didier: yeah.

Yeah.

And right in time for them to start
making all the repairs, right?

Because it's now like
well over 30 years old.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: So how do you go from a
dad that is Then the beer, beards, beer,

beards and tattoos world of, and, you
know, hippie Vermont, you know, those,

those listeners who are not American
may not know that Vermont, apart from

being fabulously beautiful, it's the
Appalachian mountains, but in the Northern

bit just before Canada is also sort of
a bastion of liberalism within America.

And so therefore, you know, 10,
a lot of great minds tend to.

Gravitate there.

But how did you go from that
to the sort of East Coast?

Stick up its ass.

American horse world that what they
would call the English riding that

horse world at any rate, which I
say with affection because I've been

a great part of the stick up its
ass American horse world as well.

And it's not without its charm, but it,
you know, it's, it's not necessarily me.

I mean, so talk us
through that transition.

Rebecca Didier: Well, it's something
that I actually I'm saddened by a

little bit these days because I was
just driving through Northern, the

very Northern most part of Vermont
this past weekend, actually, which

is about two hours from where I
grew up, which is far more central.

And it used to be when you
drove up there, the old farms.

There were just black and
white cows everywhere, you

know, Holstein cows everywhere.

And it used to be like that
throughout much of Vermont.

And of course, now you do.

And there just aren't any cows anymore.

So that's just an example of the
fact that I, I grew up in a time in

Vermont where you could have animals.

in your life and not the fancy
East Coast rich stick up your ass.

Rupert Isaacson: Oh,
the stick up your ass.

Also, it doesn't mean it

Rebecca Didier: has

Rupert Isaacson: to stick up

Rebecca Didier: your butt.

I, I, I wanted to have a horse very badly.

And there were horses everywhere
because lots of people had

them in their backyards.

And lots of people still had farms.

In fact, there was, when we
first moved there, there was

a farm up through the field.

I was, I was nine, but I could walk
up through the field and through

some trees and get onto the property.

And I, in 15 minutes I could walk
to this farm and that's where I

had my first work in the barn job.

And I worked for lessons and and
that's how I got my first pony is that

because I worked there for so long and
I worked very hard, the woman gave me

her pony that I was taking lessons on.

But I had a very rough
and ready horsey youth.

I was a 4 H er, so I was not in Pony
Club, which was the fancy people.

I I was with a bunch of other
kids who had a cast off backyard.

You know, I bought all
my tack at the resale.

Exposed that were in some
of the neighboring towns at

that time, the tax swaps.

I had rubber boots and used helmets.

And I remember painting and I sewed.

So if you've seen monogram monogram
saddle pads, and going to my first 4 H

horse show, I really wanted a monogrammed
saddle pad and so I made one myself by

like cutting out material and then sewing
it on to the used saddle pad that I had.

So it was very rough and ready.

I'm very grateful that my parents
were willing to do what they

could to enable me to have horses.

So basically that meant anybody who
said, here you can have a horse.

They knew, they knew little
enough to say, okay, it's free.

And then we kind of figured
out how to get by from there.

So I had a lot of castaways
that were my horses.

Rupert Isaacson: All kept at
that farm up the, up the road.

No,

Rebecca Didier: they, they, they
eventually moved to that wonderful

log log cabin, which was on 15
acres, but the, the blessing for me.

Was that at the time our neighbor had
80 acres and most of it fenced and

they became kind of benefactors in that
they said horses are good for kids and

being outdoors is good for kids have
horses and put them in our fields.

So, having that meaning you didn't
have to hay all summer long.

I had lots of grazing for the horses, but

Rupert Isaacson: yeah,

Rebecca Didier: it would,
it made it possible.

So,

Rupert Isaacson: and then, I mean, this
sounds not dissimilar to my upbringing

where, you know, if you come in from
the non moneyed end of horses, you very

quickly end up on the professional track
because that sort of, you know, you,

you end up with the cast off horses
and you can do a good job with them.

So people put more of them in
front of you and then you, yeah.

At what point did it start to
become doing it for a living ish?

Rebecca Didier: Well, I wanted to
quit college, so I was pretty serious

about riding and in high school
I was beginning to be recognized

as pretty good, and I had In

Rupert Isaacson: what disciplines
were you riding in at that point?

Rebecca Didier: Eventing.

I was, I was crazy for it.

Remember that No Limits thing?

There's nothing but galloping
over crazy big solid jumps.

It is astounding.

Reaching

Rupert Isaacson: to the converted.

Rebecca Didier: Exactly.

I grew up

Rupert Isaacson: in Leicestershire.

We know the average size
of hedge is two meters.

And yeah, that's just go.

Rebecca Didier: Yeah.

So, I was pretty convinced that I
wanted to, I wanted to be, I wanted

to give a shot to be a rider.

But I was also, I was a
really good basketball player.

Rupert Isaacson: Where were
you in college, by the way?

Rebecca Didier: St.

Lawrence University.

Which is up in upstate New York, a
little liberal arts school up there.

And I, I ended up going there.

I had interest.

From my basketball skills from a
number of schools, but I really

wanted to be able to ride horses too.

And so I went, I knew I wanted to go
D3 because I wanted to be able to do

two sports that were in the winter.

And the only place I could
do that was a D3 school.

And What

Rupert Isaacson: school?

Rebecca Didier: St.

Lawrence University.

Rupert Isaacson: No,
but a D3, you said, or?

Rebecca Didier: Division three.

So there's different divisions,
you know, like, size of school.

So the bigger the school, the larger,
that would be division one would be your

biggest schools with the biggest sports
teams, division two, kind of in the

middle and the division three, it's more
if you're a liberal, your tiny little

liberal arts schools, 2, 000 students.

But their sports schedules are
different than the bigger schools.

They're more accommodating if you
want to play multi Back then, I

don't know that that's true anymore.

But in my day,

Rupert Isaacson: there's more flexibility.

Rebecca Didier: So the fact that I
thought that I could go and be both

an equestrian and a basketball player.

Got it.

That's why I kind of
went in that direction.

And then I, I absolutely hated college
and, in my freshman year anyway, and

despaired at what was happening and went
home and I remember saying, I want to

quit school and I want to just, now I
know, I want to ride horses because I

Rupert Isaacson: What were you studying?

Or were you not majoring at that point?

Rebecca Didier: I was, I was
pre med my freshman year.

Which probably, maybe
that had something to

Rupert Isaacson: it.

Rebecca Didier: And then yeah,
so I, I remember having the

whole kind of knockdown drag out.

There was a particular horse
that I had been riding in the

summers who was really talented.

And I, I, I wanted to
get this horse somehow.

And I thought if I just quit school
and put everything into bringing this

horse along, I can become, you know, I
could become a real rider and do this.

Do this for real.

I'm good.

And my parents, thank God said,
absolutely not, not going to happen.

You need to finish school.

And then if you want to do horses, you can
and then I promptly went back to school

and ended up quitting the equestrian
team because it wasn't working out.

So, I mean, they, they knew

that whatever that, that decision was, so.

That wouldn't have been the
right decision at that time.

Maybe they didn't know it, but
their, their instinct was right

Rupert Isaacson: to become a doctor.

So you went back and finished
school, but what did you finish?

Rebecca Didier: I finished with creative,
well, not creative writing, English

writing, a major philosophy minor.

Rupert Isaacson: It's a medicine.

Rebecca Didier: Yes.

Well, I had all, I had all my
prerequisites done my freshman

year because of course I was pre
med and you had to be really,

you know, you had to attack it.

And so that meant beginning
my sophomore year, I could

basically take anything I wanted.

And the only courses I really wanted
to take were philosophy and in English.

And I kind of exhausted, you know,
both those departments while I was

there and I did a semester abroad at
American, well, it wasn't abroad, but

away at American university studying
journalism, because I then also

thought maybe I would be a journalist.

But it was all very focused in that space.

I said abroad, but I didn't
mean that Washington DC.

Oh,

Rupert Isaacson: okay,

Rebecca Didier: American America.

That's

Rupert Isaacson: what I said American
you best I thought isn't that in DC?

Yeah.

Okay, so but hold on.

Hold on.

You haven't talked at all about English
and writing and storytelling and You've

talked about eventing and it's something
going pre med and then So where does

a girl that likes to ride over fences?

Who thinks she wants to be a
doctor, decide to go for story.

There's, there's something earlier than
that, I think, that we've overlooked.

Rebecca Didier: Well, I'd always,
I'd always been a good writer.

I'd always written stories.

I had.

When did

Rupert Isaacson: you first
start writing stories?

Rebecca Didier: When I was a little girl.

I have poems my mom
kept from grade school.

You know, we had the class paper
when the mimeographed, we called it

mimeographing The copied class newspaper,
and I would be the one who wrote the

little short story that appeared in it.

Rupert Isaacson: And was
that from your mother?

Storytelling?

Rebecca Didier: No, she was a big reader
and my grandmother was a very big reader.

And I think that's where the
love of reading came from.

And then I.

I was attracted to good writers as a young
person, and somehow, somewhere in there.

I just always, I always remember,

is making up stories
the right way to put it?

I just always remember imagining,
well, what if there was this person,

and this person did this person?

And this person did this
thing, and then that happened.

Wouldn't that be interesting?

And what would that look like?

Like, that's like how my brain works.

And.

It's, it's funny because, you know,
it's trite to say the book's always

better than the movie, but for me it
always has been because I, especially

if I've, I don't think that's

Rupert Isaacson: trite to say.

I think it's,

Rebecca Didier: I mean, because I've
already, if I've read the book, I've,

I've constructed the whole thing.

I mean, they really, that's, that's
how my brain works and that's why I

don't do audio books, fiction at all.

I get really pissed off because.

Whatever they're doing with their voice to
be a person is not at all how I imagined.

It's just a really, I'm very particular
with how I've kind of created a scene.

Did your

Rupert Isaacson: mum,
did your mum read to you?

Yes.

And what were the seminal books that
stand out to you from your childhood?

Rebecca Didier: Well, I was
kind of, I always loved animals.

So, and I always loved horses.

So it's funny.

I, I remember very clearly two
books from when I was really little.

One was called Fritz and the Beautiful
Horses, which is an incredibly

beautifully, it's probably, it
speaks to my love for art as well.

Incredibly beautifully illustrated.

And I want to say it, the author was
either Russian or Ukrainian or that

there was something about the artwork
that was, that was, that felt very

like Eastern European or was gorgeous.

And I remember it, and the storyline
so clearly but it was read to me.

First, and then there was another one
that was called the girl who loved wild

horses and that's a Paul Goble book.

And you know, so it was this whole
Native American story of a girl who turns

into a wild horse so that she can be
with the stallion that she loves, which

is, there's a weird connotation there.

But at, when I was a child,

Rupert Isaacson: as

Rebecca Didier: a child, I just
thought it was magnificent.

And then I moved from that into, it was
mostly, they were always about animals.

So anything by Jack London and
all the, all the, all the dog.

Classics and all, everything by
Marguerite Henry, all the Mario Haras

these are all kind of classic American
books about horses and animals and

people and the relationships they have.

But they also, if I go back and I read
them now, and I did when my child who

I'll tell you, I remember him being
an infant and saying, I'll only have

succeeded as a parent if you love to read.

So, I was reading to him and I
remember reading some of these

books that I had loved so much as
a child and the writing stands up.

It's very good writing.

It's writing of a time, but
it's it's very good writing.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, sure, but I
mean in a funny way I think that that's

the whole purpose of literature is
that it should be writing of a time So

that when you read it Later on you are
transported back into that culture.

Yeah that era Were you also
reading Laura Ingalls Wilder?

And

Rebecca Didier: oh,

Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

Yeah,

Rebecca Didier: I called my
parents ma and pa for a year

Rupert Isaacson: Was it mostly
Americana or were you also

reading like Fritz and the horses
sounds like it might be a German

Rebecca Didier: Yeah, I, it was, it was
definitely, I think, I don't know if

it was written in English first or if
it was a translation, I'd have to look

it up, but the artist was certainly

Rupert Isaacson: I'm getting on Google as
we speak, so if it looks like I'm looking,

getting on my phone, it's because I am.

Fritz and the beautiful horses.

I'm quite intrigued.

Rebecca Didier: Well, and you'll
see the artwork, you'll see why it

was so, the artwork was so rich.

Rupert Isaacson: So here's a question.

Why hasn't Trafalgar Square
republished Fritz and the Horses?

Rebecca Didier: So,
it's interesting, we've.

We've looked into it a number of times
because, of course, where Martha and I

with some years separate us, she's in her
late 50s, but we did a lot of our favorite

books from our younger years do crossover.

And so we've talked about bringing back
books like that that are now out of print.

And Unfortunately, it's sometimes
it's a really difficult thing for

somebody of our size to make it work.

We kind of, I think we'd have to really
devote some monetary, we'd have to

have a fund that kind of is just about
specializing because the demand is

low and the if you're going to do it
right, especially if it's for color.

Then you've got to really put,
make a production investment.

Rupert Isaacson: Mmm.

I'm reading in this classic
picture book from best selling

author illustrator Jan Bret.

Jan Bret sounds German or Dutch.

Fritz becomes the pony.

Fritz is the pony.

Becomes a hero when he rescues
the children of a walled city.

Outside the walled city of beautiful
horses lives Fritz, a pony that is neither

Beautiful, not elegant, sounds like me.

But very gentle and
kind, well, that's nice.

When the bridge to the city,
ooh, I've got to click on more.

Breaks in half, it's up to Fritz to save
the children stranded on the other side.

This beautifully illustrated picture book
Timely Message of Inner Beauty from 1981.

Interesting, I've never heard of
it, but I'm, I'm looking at these

very beautiful illustrations.

Rebecca Didier: So beautiful.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

And of course,

Rebecca Didier: I think the story
resonated with me because those

beautiful horses were too afraid to do
what the children needed, but Fritz,

the solid little, like, working class
pony, he, he like, saved the day.

So my mom, my mother was
ingraining me with that kind

of sense from the beginning.

Rupert Isaacson: By the way,
so I'm looking up now, it's

not Jan Brett, it's Jan Brett.

She's a New Englander, a woman.

Really?

Yeah, she grew up in New England, attended
the Boston Museum School, her books have

received much acclaim, blah, blah, blah.

She's local.

Yeah, she's local.

In 2005, Brett earned the Boston Public
Library's Lifetime Achievement Award.

Her book, Three Little Dussies, came out.

Dussies are Southern African,
Southern African guinea pigs.

Their real name is rock hyraxes, and
they're actually related to elephants.

Believe it or not.

I know this because my
family is Southern African.

Was published in 2010, and made
the New York Times bestseller list.

There you go, there's your New
York Times bestseller list.

Right here.

So is she still alive?

Rebecca Didier: Is she still alive?

Rupert Isaacson: It would appear so.

Her last thing was 2014, The Animal Santa
Mossy 2012, Cinders, A Chicken Cinderella,

all sorts of books about different
animals and she okay I'm going on.

So I just think, the only reason,
listeners, I'm doing this is because

I think if if Rebecca Didier of,
yeah, here, here we go, of Trafalgar

Square thinks that this book is
good, we clearly ought to read it.

Be checking out her work.

I think she, yeah, she was born in 1949.

Doesn't say she died.

Rebecca Didier: She's
like my mother's age.

So I need to find, I clearly need
to find her and I need to express

my adoration for that book and how
I still, I can picture the pages in

my, I've read it hundreds of times.

Loved it.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, well maybe
we should get her on the podcast.

Rebecca Didier: Yes, I think you should.

And the BPL, oh, to be included.

It was published by

Rupert Isaacson: Houghton Mifflin, so I
mean that was obviously a big publisher.

And yes, she, she, her setting
for Fritz and the Beautiful

Horses was Salzburg, Austria, so.

Okay.

But it doesn't say she's died,
so I suspect she's still out

there and you can contact.

Glad we sorted that out.

Rebecca Didier: Yes, fan mail to come.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So you, you, you grow up with
these beautiful stories and then

you're at university and you say
dropped out of the writing team.

So you were on the writing team there.

Why did you drop out?

Why didn't you like it?

Rebecca Didier: I wasn't
on the writing team.

I thought that I should be on the writing
team, but I didn't, I didn't understand.

And I don't, and I don't know whether you
are familiar with kind of the different

You are, I know you are actually.

So most college riding teams are
equitation over fences and hunters.

And I was a scrappy little
Vermont event girl, very.

Extremely different worlds.

And I didn't understand that because
I had never, I'd never seen a hunter

over fences in my entire life.

So I went and I tried out for the
equestrian team thinking that I'm really

good and I can leap over anything.

And, and I basically
was told that I sucked.

So

Rupert Isaacson: I actually had
a very similar experience on

my university equestrian team.

I was exactly the same.

I came out of the eventing, hunting,
team chasing world, even, even So, went

to university with my horse, I could,
I could choose between having a horse

or a car, so I chose a horse and I
would go do the shopping on my horse

and have people hold it outside the
supermarket when I went in and stuff.

Yes, they, they didn't want me
on the, on the equestrian team.

Oh,

Rebecca Didier: see, we're
like, we're bonded by that.

So, yeah, I, I stopped walking
through the snow, carrying my riding

boots to the barn and at the time
I was still playing basketball.

But then that kind of.

Ended my sophomore year
because I blew out my knee.

I tore my ACL.

So when those two ways of identifying
myself were, I'm not going to say they

were taken away because that makes it
sound like they Somebody was intentionally

saying, you don't get to have that.

It just happened, but those
three things happened.

And that was how I really had
constructed myself as a person.

I was an athlete and these were
the two things I was good at.

I and I had at that point decided in
a biology class when we were talking

about the intricacies of the human body
and all the different ways that can go

wrong that I don't want to know this.

And then I just said, you know what?

I love writing and, and I, and I'm so
interested in the meaning of everything.

So why don't I just take philosophy
classes and try to figure out

what the meaning is all about
and then write about stuff.

And I really, really loved it.

There wasn't, there wasn't a class
that I didn't enjoy thoroughly

when I just kind of changed
tracks and really focused on that.

Rupert Isaacson: Favourite philosopher?

Rebecca Didier: Oh goodness.

I don't

favorite philosopher

Rupert Isaacson: can be plural.

Rebecca Didier: I'm not, I'm not
going to be able to name names.

I'm not gonna be able to
go into that conversation.

I, I go down this track
with my husband, Brian.

And it results in debate that leaves
me frustrated and in a dark place.

Rupert Isaacson: It's

Rebecca Didier: alright to say
someone you like, though, isn't it?

I mean Well, you know, so it's funny,
he describes himself as Hobbesian,

which always baffles me, because
then I'm like, well, how did I

end up with you, if that's true?

Because

Rupert Isaacson: Can you define
what a Hobbesian is, please?

Rebecca Didier: I don't know that if I can
accurately, so you may have to, to Amend

what I say, but when I say it in relation
to my husband, it means that he believes

that man's, man is not, man's driving
force is not of good, but of the most

base, you know, impulses and so that I am,
I am such an idealist and I, the only way

that I get through each and every day is
by believing that someone will stop at the

stoplight and that someone's going to pick
up the little kid who fell down, even if

that person is a stranger and care about
whether that little kid feels good or not.

And I, my understanding, at least from
him, is that that is not in fact, the case

that mankind will always trend toward,

toward violence and toward Ego and
toward greed because that is who we are.

Rupert Isaacson: Yes, there's
always some bastard out there

who was it's interesting.

I mean, Hobbes is interesting for
those listeners who are not familiar

because He's deeply pessimistic.

Rebecca Didier: Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: Comes across as a cynic.

Now, we all know that the people that
like to cast themselves as, Oh, I'm

such a cynic and I'm such a realist.

I'm such a pessimist.

They're actually all
the biggest romantics.

And they're just so deeply uncomfortable
with it and embarrassed by it.

That they have to get
this veneer, you know.

And what's interesting about Hobbes is
he's writing in the 17th century, right?

Yeah.

In England which is through
the time of the great plague.

And all of that.

So, and he lives to be 94, so, you
know, but you, you can sort of see in

a weird way though, why, because what
was going on in England at that time was

of course, in, in, he was born in 1588.

Mm-hmm . He lives into the 16 seventies.

So he sees the, well, he doesn't see
because he's pro, he's a baby, you know

what mm-hmm . But Elizabeth is still
on the throne, Shakespeare's writing.

But by this 1588, so if you, if
Shakespeare's writing around 16.

A one to five sort of thing, then
he would have been aware of that.

And then what happens is, of
course, after Elizabeth, James,

King James comes on the throne.

It's witch burnings and it's superstition.

And then shortly after that,
it's the English Civil War.

They cut the king's head off.

But they They kill off a large
proportion of each other.

The English Civil War was
not gentlemanly at all.

And then you've got Are any,

Rebecca Didier: are any
civil wars gentlemanly?

Rupert Isaacson: Well, I mean, what we'd
like to think, madam, that, you know, at

the very least, the English would, you
know, it was more of, yeah, but sadly, no.

Yes, I think you're right.

And and so then, of course, if
he's, if he's living through that

sort of in his probably, what, 50s?

Yeah, it must have been 50s, 60s.

And then What's going on in Europe
at that time the 30 years war,

you know in Germany right can

Rebecca Didier: explain

Rupert Isaacson: Then at the end of
the 30 Years War, 4 million people.

Rebecca Didier: Context.

If we give him context, it makes complete

Rupert Isaacson: sense.

Gangsters in, Oliver Cromwell,
the Republican thing, but

it's just a bunch of bollocks.

So they have to bring the royalty
back, you know, because at least

they banned Christmas, you know.

He'd have seen all that happen.

So I suppose I'm looking here
on, on Wikipedia, he looks

like a pretty miserable git,

but he was clearly the misery
worked out for him because he lived

to be, no, not 94, 91, but Jesus
Christ, no, no one lived that long.

Okay, so your husband's going
to clearly live very long.

Rebecca Didier: Is that a good thing?

Rupert Isaacson: If he's
a Hobbesian, what are you?

Rebecca Didier: I don't know.

You know, when, when I first started, I'm
trying to think there was a story that

I wrote and it was re imagining a scene.

I think it was Plato
and what was it called?

I think I called it what Aristophanes
said or something like that.

And I was so, I was so in love with Plato.

With, with reading that, reading The
Republic, or whatever it was I was reading

at the time, and, and, and delving into
these questions, and then, of course, I

read The Plague, and The Stranger, and
then It's All About That, and, and then

I, I, you know, not a philosopher, but
then I spent, I read every single Herman

Hesse's book, every single one of them,
and, and trying to determine whether

a path of asceticism is Is one that I
would ever have the strength to take.

And in fact, is asceticism really,
is that just a stronger form of ego?

Or is it a relinquishment of ego?

And

I get, I get very, get
tangled up in good ways.

But not, not in such a way that I then
reflected and, and thought, well, you

know, I'm, I'm clearly an accolade
or I'm clearly, I'm clearly a fan of.

Yeah.

I didn't become a philosopher.

I, I just, I decided I wanted
to write fiction instead.

And then I became an editor.

Oh, first I became a bartender,
and then I became an editor.

Rupert Isaacson: What sort
of bartender were you?

Where did you bartend?

Rebecca Didier: So after college
I, I, I didn't go to grad school.

I was, I was encouraged
to go but I didn't.

And I said, I'm going to, I'm
going to go right out and I'm

going to start writing my novel.

And that meant I became a bartender
and I was in Burlington, Vermont first.

And then I got a job working for a
Senator at the, in the U S Senate.

So I moved to Washington, DC and I
worked for a Senator for a year and

got another bartending job while I
was there at a bar that had the most.

The largest number of beers, including
microbrews, in the world at the time.

So there's a theme, it's
reappeared, called the Brickskeller.

It was very, very famous at the time
it's no longer, it no longer exists.

And I bartended there, and then 9 11
happened, and I moved home because

that was crazy thing to be in D.

C.

for.

I moved back to Vermont to
kind of, refocus, resettle

try to start the novel again.

And I was a bartender in
Hanover, New Hampshire, which

is where Dartmouth College is.

And my husband, my now husband, was
teaching at Dartmouth at the time.

And I'm, that's how we met.

So there was a lot of bars.

Oh, there are many bars.

Rupert Isaacson: So, I'm well,
I'm a I'm a great patron of bars.

Rebecca Didier: I still
have some very good.

I have some very good friends in
my life who began as my patrons.

So, they, they, we have maintained
those, those very strong bonds

that were formed over four feet of.

Mahogany or whatever.

Rupert Isaacson: I could make
so many jokes there, but I'm

Rebecca Didier: refraining.

That's a different podcast.

Rupert Isaacson: It's one
that we could monetize.

Is it, does your husband
still teach at Dartmouth?

Rebecca Didier: He doesn't.

So he's an anthropologist
by trade, by training.

But he ended up being a teacher at a
private school in Boston, which is,

we ended up going there, and now we're
at a private school in New Hampshire.

So a boarding school.

Rupert Isaacson: Interesting, though,
that if he's an anthropologist, he'd be a

Hobbesian because I've lived with hunting
and gathering tribes a lot, and what

I've observed is anything but Hobbesian.

The most functional societies.

Rebecca Didier: I'm beginning to believe
you in that this is all a facade.

He acts like the cynic,
but he really isn't, right?

Yeah, exactly.

Rupert Isaacson: Believe me, all
of the people that, that, that

love to fly that cynic flag, it's
just that they're total romantics.

Yeah.

Rebecca Didier: Yeah.

Interesting.

Rupert Isaacson: They just, you know, it's
this sort of Tom Waits, you know, Shane

McGowan of the Pogues type, you know,

Rebecca Didier: two of my
favorite artists, right?

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Rebecca Didier: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Rebecca Didier: Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, and you looked a little
McGowan, like in that facial.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

Yeah.

But actually, you know, they're all songs
about love and, you know, lots of stuff.

Yeah.

Okay.

So then.

You, you, you, you've got a novel that
is trying to be born and Yeah, you are.

You've gone back to Vermont,
you're married you are married

to an academic and a teacher.

How do you end up with Traf Faraga Square?

Where does that happen?

Rebecca Didier: It was from the time when
there were ads in the paper and there

was a, an ad in the Valley News, which is
the local newspaper that said that they

were hiring for an editorial assistant.

And it don't, I actually, I can't
remember exactly, but I actually

think that it didn't even specify
that they published horse books.

I think it just said it was
a publisher and that they

needed an editorial assistant.

And I thought, Oh, I qualify for that.

And I'm tired of being a
full time bartender and it's

time because the novel is.

Unborn and so I I I don't know what I
think I figured out before I left to

for my interview that I had a copy of
centered writing which my parents had

bought me in 1986 Which is the year?

As you

Rupert Isaacson: don't know
centered writing by sally swift.

It was a is still a milestone book in
the sort of annals of the culture of

What we would call english riding
in western civilization It's

made it's made a big impact,

Rebecca Didier: millions of
copies sold 19 languages how many

Rupert Isaacson: copies were sold

Rebecca Didier: by millions worldwide
It's over a million in the u.

s And and well, maybe not
millions worldwide, but well

over a million worldwide Even if

Rupert Isaacson: you perhaps are as
a listener the reason it sold so many

was she was one of the first people to
Sort of bring the idea of imagination

Imagination And sort of that sort of
sports psychology, but not just imagine

yourself winning, but you know, imagine

Rebecca Didier: Your tree.

Rupert Isaacson: Imagine that there's a
flock of geese flying out of your head

and it's somehow connecting you with
the clouds and but it kind of worked.

Yeah.

These visualizations helped people to
really connect with the movement of

their horses and balance themselves
and center themselves on on a

horse, which, as we know, can be the
difference between life and death.

And just

Rebecca Didier: as you're saying this,
I'm thinking a little bit about the

fact that that those visualizations.

That was probably at the very beginning
of riders really starting to allow

themselves to connect with their horses
on emotional and psychological level.

Before that, sure, we, you know, there
were people who, who were making strides,

but it was still very mechanical.

I remember.

Being taught and it was all that
traditional sort of teaching and the horse

needs to listen and give him a smack if he
if he's not and all of the old school sort

of where the boss where the leader and.

You know, then you hold the right position
on the horse and with Sally's book.

Yes, it was focused very much on the
rider, but it's almost by bringing that

sort of meditative quality to the rider
that allowed an openness to occur.

That maybe made us more in tune
to the fact that horses are a

whole heck of a lot more than,
you know, just a riding machine.

So interesting.

I've never thought about that
aspect of it in those words.

Thanks.

Yeah, I'm centered writing.

I found out that the company I
was about to go interview with had

published this horse book that I
had from when I was 9 years old and.

That was like, wow.

And then I found out that it was 15
minutes away from my parents house,

the offices, the farm, literally it's
you drive down a hill, across a river,

up a hill, and there's the farm.

I had passed it hundreds of
times throughout my life.

The farm is behind like a high stone wall.

So throughout the publishing company's
existence, I had driven by not

knowing what was happening there.

And then when I came They also informed
me, Oh, well, Jane Savoy is one of

our, you know, top authors and I had
groomed for Jane for two summers.

So I, you know,

Rupert Isaacson: Jane Savoy was is.

Rebecca Didier: Jane Savoy she passed
a couple of years ago now, but she

was a dressage rider and trainer.

She made the reserve team for the U.

S.

In, it would have been in the early
90s, and she became very well known

for being one of the first kind of
motivational speakers within the sphere.

Her first book that Trafalgar published
was called That Winning Feeling, and it

really used all the things, the sports
psychology tidbits from other sports and

brought them into the equestrian realm.

So again, it was kind of like Sally Swift.

It was the first, first time there
was cross pollination and equestrians

thinking about riding and the sport
of riding in different ways, rather

than just the traditional sense.

That's kind of where Trafalgar has made
its mark, is pushing those boundaries

and making us think about horses and
horse sports in slightly different ways.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so
you, you get a job with them.

Mm hmm.

Are you immediately like, yeah, this
is home, this is where I need to be?

Rebecca Didier: Well, when I first
started you may or may not know this about

the company, but it was called, it was
Trafalgar Square Publishing at the time,

now it's Trafalgar Square Books, and it
was the top distributor of British books.

In the US, they still, this was kind
of, Amazon was just coming into its

own, so British publishers who needed
a point of contact for distribution of

their titles into stores needed a port
of rest, so there's a cow barn that

is a warehouse, and huge trucks would
come in with pallets full of books.

British.

How did that happen?

The publisher, Carolyn
Robbins, is British.

And she and her husband were married
in Trafalgar Square in London, which

is why, hence the name of the company.

And she grew up in publishing.

She was in publishing.

Her dad was in publishing.

So they had connections and
that led to kind of this.

This, this opportunity for them to,
to, to provide this distribution

service out of their Vermont farm.

They were both in New York at that time.

And and so it was, there were 30,
36 people on the farm that a lot of

them in the warehouse at that time.

And we also had a lot of
craft books as an off.

Shoot.

So books on knitting and, and crochet
and it was just another area of

specialty that we were handling.

So when I was hired, I was kind of
an assistant to all the managing

director at that time would kind of.

Give me duties.

And then I was mostly
Martha Cook's assistant.

So the horse book related things.

And then I also helped
with the craft books.

And it was a very crowded office.

So right away.

Was it like, holy cow?

This is my calling.

I would say no, but it was like, it
felt like a job at an interesting

place in a beautiful place.

That was really convenient to where I
was kind of hold up with my parents.

Before I got married and had a
place to live with my husband.

Rupert Isaacson: But you stayed.

Rebecca Didier: I did.

Rupert Isaacson: Why?

Rebecca Didier: Well, somewhere
in the midst of, you know, the

natural evolution of a young person.

In a career, I found that I could, I
would lose track of time, so I was never

clock watching four hours would go by,
and it would be time to go, and I wouldn't

be ready to stop whatever it was I was
doing, and it had to do with bookmaking,

but it wasn't necessarily editing at
that, at the, or in the earliest days.

I also think I was smart enough
that even though it was hard, I

recognized that I was being mentored
by somebody who was really good at

what she did, and that was Carolyn.

I literally sat side by side with
her while she redlined manuscripts.

Which I don't think lots of
people get that opportunity.

And she's a, she's a very specialized
mind when it comes to editing.

Rupert Isaacson: Tell us
why that was important.

Tell us why people don't normally
get, why is that a rare opportunity?

And why is that a precious opportunity?

Rebecca Didier: Well, because she, I
knew writing from a writer's perspective.

And I knew writing critique
from taking courses.

And of in courses where
that's what we did.

And of course, receiving critique
from my peers and from my professors,

but I didn't know editing as a job.

I hadn't taken a course in editing
and to sit next to somebody who does

that professionally, and then have
her painstakingly kind of explain.

But this isn't clear.

And at first, and especially with
nonfiction books, which a lot of our

books are practical, instructional,
nonfiction, to have, I was still of the

mind where we fill in the blanks, right?

So if we know the subject, and
I read step by step, you could

give me three of the five steps.

It's the Great British Baking Show,
the technical challenge, where they

kind of say, make this, make this.

I could, I could do
that with horses, right?

So I wasn't looking at it and noticing
all the things that were missing.

And Carolyn taught me, this
is for somebody who doesn't

know how to do this, maybe.

And we're taking this professional's,
this expert, and having them teach us how

to do it, but they've missed five steps.

How did we get from here?

Falter the horse to here,
put the horse on the trailer.

So, many people, I think, would hesitate
at that kind of detail, but that's part

of what makes our books so careful.

For is that it's not just halter the
horse, it's how do you halter the horse,

you know, and the steps that you, that
you take, if you really didn't know.

And then the assumption is, is
that, is that if the reader knows

that step, they'll just skim it.

But we're making, we're trying to be
sure that the one who doesn't know would

actually walk away knowing how to do
it properly and carefully and safely.

Rupert Isaacson: It's an interesting
thing because as you know,

there's a tradition and listeners
should probably be aware of this.

There's a tradition of equestrian
literature within both western

and eastern civilizations that
goes back thousands of years.

And the reason why it's worth knowing
this is because mankind's culture

has gone out into the world on
the backs of horses and on ships.

So those two areas of writing nautical and
equestrian have kind of shaped history.

And there are these big People who
pop up every century or so as the

kind of masters, as you know, Rebecca
the old masters, they are un fucking

readable, because they're written
by horse people who can't write.

And they

Rebecca Didier: weren't edited.

And they make all

Rupert Isaacson: these assumptions
and they're sort of impatient anyway.

Yeah.

A bit sort of probably autistic and I
say that in the right because I was an

I'm an autism dad But they're heavily
heavily obsessive and perhaps a bit

impatient with people that don't you
know have their insights and feel so

Filling in the blanks very interesting.

You say filling in the blanks and I've
read you know I've got sitting in front

of me here a book that you co wrote with
the great One of the great masters of our

time, Linda Tellington Jones, who, who
is a master and she's a modern master.

And if you are an equestrian, by
the way lads listening to this and

you have not yet checked out Linda.

Linda Tannington Jones and what
she brings to the horse world,

the dog world and the human world.

You got to check her out.

She's pushing 90 and still getting
up on big dangerous horses and with

a smile on her face and making the
world better sort of as she does it.

So,

At what point did you start to
say, Oh, yeah, this is actually

not just my thing I love to do, i.

e.

riding horses, but this is sort of
an important, it's actually a really

important part of our culture.

It's an important part of our history.

And I want to sort of make
this clear for people.

It's a really interesting
niche to fall into.

When, when did, when did
that become clear for you?

Rebecca Didier: Well, I think as I became
more familiar with, to the guiding, the,

the, the guiding kind of principle at
Trafalgar is for the good of the horse.

And it's, and it's been that way
since I, since I started there.

And the idea that not only are we
looking to publish books for people

who love horses and, or to be about.

For sports or horse care, but
also to help further understanding

and mold better, a better life.

For horses and animals and also the people
who are around them and involved with them

by making them safer and and which I think
is the result of a better understanding

if we are safer that that lit of that lit
me up is the only way I can describe it.

It was like, I've never been
interested in producing something

just to produce something.

You know, I, I, you know, I like
things that bring people joy.

Obviously I was a
bartender for a long time.

I like being around people
that are, that are out trying

to live life to its fullest.

And I, I liked the idea that
here I was, I was in a company.

Yes, it was a small company,
so it wasn't corporate.

And I was producing something.

Yes.

Something that people bought.

Yes.

But maybe it was doing a
little bit of good, right?

So if I'm going to be a cog in a wheel,
this was a wheel that, you know, was going

somewhere with a positive, you know, a
pretty sunset at the end I, that became

important to me there in my late 20s or
whenever it was that I was really starting

to find my, my stride at Trafalgar.

In addition, I also think that
my own awareness changed of

not just horses, but dogs, too.

And I, and I don't know how much of
that was just growing up and growing

older and becoming more sensitive
and more open to those energies.

I had always been good at it.

I had always loved animals, but
now I wanted to change the fact

that we do a lot of really pretty
shitty things to animals and.

Here, I wasn't in a position to maybe
help find ways to improve that and the

old masters weren't getting it done.

Right.

So, you know, there are a lot of
people out there professing that

they've got the secret or a secret
or, you know, this and that.

And a lot of them do.

They, there are all different ways.

I do believe that.

And that's part of the reason
why I think we can, as you've

indicated, be cross disciplinary.

We have a lot of variety
in what it is we cover.

We try really hard not to subscribe
to tribalism within the industry.

I believe good can come
from any, any space.

And any breed and we
need to be open to it.

And we're, we're not necessarily
always good at saying that Western

rider can teach me something as
an inventor or jumper rider can

teach me something as a Rainer.

And we're getting better at it.

But when I started at Tripolgar, we
were really pretty bad at it still.

I, I mean, I just, I remember having
conversations with Martha and Carolyn.

Oh, we can't publish that because nobody
will want to read it because it's,

you know, it's a Western writer and
all our writers are dressage writers

and that's just not the case anymore.

But it, it's taken years.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

I mean, I think also the internet
has helped with this, you know, of

Rebecca Didier: course.

Of

Rupert Isaacson: course,
but absolutely, absolutely.

You know, people are not sort of
locked in their regional silos as well.

At the same time, that factionalism and
that tribalism that you described it

at the same time that there has been
an opening, I think within the Horse

World, there's also been a reaction.

And as always, you know, you get equal
and opposite reaction to anything.

So some areas have hardened.

You know, I, I was writing
semi professionally in the U.

S.

for quite a while.

I rode hunters, I rode, I trained
horses for the hump field.

Now, and then I fell through,
you know, therapeutic riding

into this weird dressage thing.

So I had to learn how to collect
horses and I began to observe

the dressage world in the U.

S.

And their love of the Germans and
their sort of slavish worship of

that and this sort of idea that
oh, if you're German, you must be

sort of born in a dressage style.

I've lived in Germany seven years now.

I can tell you it's not true.

There are very good writers here, but
it's not the norm, actually, at all.

And.

The sort of rigidity with which peeps
a certain, you know, certain sectors of

the horse industry have sort of almost

calcified.

Yeah.

And, and become hostile and so on.

I observed this, you know, as I sort
of began to enter the dressage world

and frankly, the therapeutic world.

And I sort of thought, why, you
know, because I'd grown up as

somewhat of a multi discipline Aryan.

I mean, okay, fine, area of England
I grew up in was hunting, eventing.

So that's sort of what you did, but you
were totally open to, you know, Other

things from other places and but I also
observed the same thing in the Western

world I observed a kind of a you know,
well, we don't hold with that kind of

you know, East Coast bullshit You know,
it's like well, it's not bullshit They

actually these East Coast riders are
very good and they know a lot and why

are we pretending that I mean the horses?

Don't give a shit

Riding in the I just want to have
a nice time and be treated well and

how you know So Again, you guys have
really trodden this interesting line,

I think, between working with real
experts, sort of household names, but

not always household names within the
horse world, and yet Not falling into

the factionalism, even though many of the
people reading the books that you publish

might silo themselves off into, Oh, I'm
going to buy, you know, those books,

but I'm not going to buy those books.

Yeah, you are a pan publisher.

So you're kind of like the
penguin of, of, of the house

of, of, of, of the horse world.

That's a hell of an achievement.

How have you not been sucked into
that calcification, and how have you

not had the market sort of drive you
that, oh shit, you know, we really

sell to dressage people, so we kind
of got to play that game or whatever.

How have you managed to resist
that and stay profitable?

Rebecca Didier: Well, I think that
it's, it has been really intentional.

In particular, I would say in the
last 15 years, and you would see

that from our list, we certainly
did have a very heavy dressage.

Focus early on but we weren't publishing
as many books at the time you know,

that said, we also did have, I think we
published Richard Shrake's book, which

was one of the early resistance free
training as a very early kind of Western

natural horsemanship kind of book.

So I think the interest was
always there if somebody.

If somebody had something different
that they were trying to say that we

thought had value and had legs and
that judgment was usually made by the

fact that we had spent collectively,
we had spent a lot of time with horses,

although we also do sometimes call.

Those on our list and say, what
do you think of this person?

Or what do you think of
what this is all about?

And just to get it to take a temperature.

I, I personally feel that I've really
fought for this especially in kind

of expanding those we publish who are
Western You know, and again air quotes,

but from west of the Mississippi,
or for more horsemanship background,

trying to ensure that as a publisher,
we're an equestrian publisher.

And that means that I want people to
open up our catalog or go online and.

recognize something that makes them feel
at home, because if they recognize one

thing that makes them feel at home, then
maybe they'll check out something else.

So if the Western book brought you in,
but then you buy horse brain, human brain,

that book is for, it's cross disciplinary.

That's just.

That's just about knowing more about
the neuroscience of horsemanship.

So then I've, I've succeeded and, and
I, I'm also, I use this example because

she wrote a memoir that blew my mind
that I really enjoyed working on.

It's called Never Burn Your Moving
Boxes and we published it last

September, I think it's September ago.

So it's been out just over a year.

Rupert Isaacson: What's
the name of the book again?

Rebecca Didier: Never
Burn Your Moving Boxes.

Rupert Isaacson: By

Rebecca Didier: By Jolynn Young.

Rupert Isaacson: Jillian Young.

Rebecca Didier: Jolynn.

Rupert Isaacson: Jolynn

Rebecca Didier: Jolyn.

Joly Young.

Jolynn Young.

Yep.

And she is literally a cowboy wife.

And you wouldn't think anything, you know?

How's that different?

We all seen Yellowstone.

We know the reality TV show and.

The romantic concept of what this
life might be like, but she wrote the

grittiest, most honest story of her
early marriage, like kind of a young

adulthood, early marriage children having,
having three children and just trying

to figure out being a woman and a wife,
a creative individual, four hours from

any town in the middle of the desert.

With no power, no self service, you
know, like, because this lifestyle

really happens and for me working on
that book as a, I would say, feeling

like I'm a parallel to a degree.

She's younger than me, but we're both.

We're both creative individuals.

We're both women.

We're both mothers.

I think she's a powerful person.

I hope I'm a powerful person.

I was, I was trans, I was moved
to understand more about living

in that part of our country.

And we live in a really big country.

I suddenly felt like, oh, I get it.

I guarantee you we vote
differently, but I get it.

I understand her.

I understand what why that's
important to her and I understand

why she made that choice there.

And in editing a book like that,
where I had, you know, my East Coast.

You know, kind of political correct
urges to say, we can't do this.

We can't say this.

I need to fix this and restraint
learning to restrain that and say,

this, this is an authentic story.

And we're learning something.

If we read this truly.

As she portrays it, and she, and she
writes beautifully and it's good.

It was, I think it was really
important for us to publish that

because it, it, it took us away from.

From what people might expect
and it helps us all grow.

If somebody walks in and looks
for Jane Savoy's book but then

finds JoLynn's book, I've won.

What am I winning?

I've, I've succeeded.

Rupert Isaacson: That, that, that
makes me ask the next question which

is of course, you know, what horses,
I think horses give us many things.

They set us, they represent freedom.

If we're lucky, they set us free.

If we're unlucky, we end up in
a cage of being shouted at by

a horrible riding instructor.

Yeah, but nonetheless, you
know, it represents that to us.

So in many ways, they're healing.

But also unfortunately, they
can also represent power because

they give you power, right?

So horses, you You can project your ego
through horses very well, and they make

you bigger, stronger, smarter, more
beautiful, and then you get off them and

then you're just a little monkey again.

But you can believe for a while that this
power that the horse lends you is yours.

It's an illusion.

But what horses really do, I
feel, is that they bring up,

they connect us with nature.

They are nature.

They are the ocean.

They are the land.

They're there at all.

And I've been reading a bit about what,
Trafalgar Square is going to next.

So nature writing in general.

This talk to me about that because
that that to me is exciting.

I'm a great consumer of nature writing.

And some of my friends
are great nature writers.

Are you moving in that direction?

And if so, how and what
should we be looking out for?

Rebecca Didier: Well, I actually
just finished editing a new memoir.

I might describe it a little bit as
nature writing and a lot as a love

story and then quite a bit about horses.

It's called To Borrow Freedom and the,
the, the it's by Sheila Greenfield.

Rupert Isaacson: Sheila
Greenfield to borrow freedom

Rebecca Didier: to borrow freedom.

Yep.

And the I've had a number of very
remarkable experiences as an editor

that someday we can delve into this
one is remarkable because I've had

to edit her book after she passed.

But it was her wish that it be
published and her husband is working

with me and it will come out.

She, she passed this past spring.

Rupert Isaacson: What's it about?

Rebecca Didier: So she and her
husband ran a travel destination

trail riding excursion.

Place in the southwestern
coast of Portugal.

Very, very beautiful.

I don't know if you've been there.

I sadly have not, but

Rupert Isaacson: I'll actually
be in Portugal tomorrow.

Rebecca Didier: Well, we'll go there.

It's, I, as you know, I'm, I'm
fresh off editing it with a very

light hand, I might add, because,
because she could not work with me

directly, but the ways that she is.

Utterly in love with where she is
physically in the world, the way

she describes dunes or a, a white
stork or the shade of the ocean.

Or a, a, a little bird
who's fallen out of a tree.

The, the glinting eyes of
a wild boar in the dark.

She pays very close attention
to all the aspects of nature.

That made that place for a period of time
in her life, the best place to be, and

she explores a lot of different themes.

I think it's mostly a love story to her
husband, which will make me feel very

emotional talking about it, but she, she
has, and it's not, it's, it's not perfect,

but that's the beauty of it, because what
really is, She has explored delving into

and telling us a little bit about what
makes this place so precious to her and

that made me feel like, not only am I
drawn to it in a trans, you know, it's

transporting me via this book and these
pages, but I'd actually like to go there.

And so it's, that's the very best kind of.

Nature writing experience

Rupert Isaacson: to give
you that sense of place,

Rebecca Didier: but you know, I, I, we
did, we published a nature field guide.

We have another 2 coming
nature is important to me.

My, my, my favorite, but I've
read a number of Simon's books,

but I think she's very good.

I'm sorry, Montgomery,

Rupert Isaacson: Montgomery, I think.

Rebecca Didier: So all of an octopus.

I don't know if you know that book.

Rupert Isaacson: Tell us about this.

Rebecca Didier: So Si Montgomery,
she's, I think her first book was maybe

The Good Good Pig, and she's written
another recent one about chickens

that I haven't, I have not read.

And then there's a book called
How to Be a Good Creature.

And I, I, I love her.

She, The Soul of an Octopus was the
one that really captured me and pulled

me in because Because I hadn't thought
about the octopus in those terms

until I read that book and then later
on and I watched the octopus teacher

and, and I, my, my fascination was
furthered and I wasn't alone in that

lots of people kind of were awakened.

But she writes about animals and nature.

In an illuminating and moving way.

That's not just reporting.

It's about what it is that we can
discover about ourselves, right, as also

creatures in the space, rather than as
the, the better animal or the brighter

animal or the more powerful animal.

I like that she elevates a pig,
you know, to, to a throne of sorts.

Hell, I think Helen McDonald,

Rupert Isaacson: a

Rebecca Didier: pig throne,

Rupert Isaacson: but okay, so is
that somewhere you want to go more

in your publishing more into the
world of nature writing and the

celebration of nature in general?

Rebecca Didier: You know, I will be
completely honest with you and say

that I have no, nothing dictates
where I could see myself going or not

going with when it comes to writing.

I'm very lucky that at Trafalgar, we
have been able, we mostly published

nonfiction practical books when I started.

We've done biography,
autobiography, and memoir since.

And I've even been able
to edit some fiction.

Some quite good fiction.

Rupert Isaacson: Tell
us about the fiction.

Rebecca Didier: A couple of middle grade
books by, I think, a true writing talent.

Her name is Melanie Sue Bowles and
she's based in Georgia North Carolina.

When you say middle grade, do you

Rupert Isaacson: mean
like for young adults?

What, what do you mean?

So

Rebecca Didier: middle grade
would be like nine to 12.

So not quite, not quite sophisticated.

Like

Rupert Isaacson: middle school, right?

Yeah,

Rebecca Didier: right.

And she, she.

Rupert Isaacson: Those
are often the best books.

Rebecca Didier: That's, she's.

It's wonderful.

The character that she has created.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, gosh.

I love those books.

I lived in those books.

She, she created a character
who's very complex a neurodiverse

character, a mixed race character
and quirky and intelligent and funny.

that reminds me of Anne of
Green Gables, which was another

series that I absolutely loved.

And yet she's incorporated there,
there are horses and there are,

you know, there's a rescue element.

Cause that's a place that she comes
from, but she, she just has sometimes,

sometimes people know that they have
the fairy dust, you know, when they

write, when they write the words and
you, you feel it and she, she has it.

She's Melanie, Melanie, Sue
Bowles, many Melanie, Sue Bowles.

Rupert Isaacson: Bowles, B A L L S.

Rebecca Didier: B O W L E S.

Oh,

Rupert Isaacson: Bowles.

Rebecca Didier: Bowles.

Rupert Isaacson: Melanie Sue Bowles.

B O W L E S.

Rebecca Didier: Yes.

Rupert Isaacson: Very good.

Give us a title to start
with, to kick off with.

Rebecca Didier: The first book
is called Liberty Biscuit.

Rupert Isaacson: Liberty Biscuit.

Rebecca Didier: And the second book is
called Little Pearl, and they go together.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Rebecca Didier: Wonderful books.

Rupert Isaacson: And
are they set in Georgia?

Rebecca Didier: They are
set on a Georgia peach farm.

Okay.

Yeah, in a time that you really
can't, you're not quite sure.

It's, it's definitely not modern times,
but you can't really tell which decade.

And that was intentional just
to try to remove that need for

everything to be on an iPhone.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Very interesting.

So what, what makes a good book?

Rebecca Didier: Well, it depends on
what kind of book we're talking about.

Rupert Isaacson: No, it doesn't.

Rebecca Didier: For when we're talking
our instructional books, I, I'm always now

looking for that little twist of delivery.

I want it to be really clear and
really straightforward on one

hand, but I also want a creative,
you know, here's the hook.

Here's, here's the little call out
that's going to be on every page.

Here's the thing that's going to make.

This instructional book different
than this one, simply because now

it's different 20 years later.

We have so many.

We've published a lot of them.

So what's, what's the thing that's
going to, to make, deliver this

in a slightly different way with,
with the memoir and the biography?

Well, the biography is easier because
I think a really well researched

biography, you can tell almost
immediately that that is the case.

And if you can, without over personalizing
what you're sharing with us about

somebody and somebody's life, you can
at the same time insert personality.

And I think that's again, a talent and a
biographer, because a lot of biographies,

you read them and they're downright dry.

And you still feel gratified because
you've learned about something you're

interested in learning about, but others

Rupert Isaacson: force
yourself to read it.

Yeah, exactly.

Rebecca Didier: And others you read
and you find yourself laughing every

here and there and, and, and kind
of, and if, especially if it's a well

placed kind of question mark, you
know, you know, maybe this meant this.

So I think with, with, with.

With a little tweak here and there
and a little bit of personality

on the part of the biographer.

You can have something That's correct.

Well researched and
yet quite entertaining.

And then with the memoir, oh my goodness.

'cause there's so much now and it's hard
for me now, it's gotta have good writing.

And I know we could all debate
what good writing is, and it's

not to me about grammar anymore.

In fact, we, we, we, in
order to preserve voice.

I bend rules all the time when it comes
to grammar and punctuation and things

like that because especially in this day
and age, it's not so important and rules

are changing all the time, but mostly
because voice is harder to come by than

a grammatically correct manuscript.

So

Rupert Isaacson: when you say
good writing, what does that mean?

Rebecca Didier: It means that
every word is intentional.

It's intentionally chosen.

It's not just I picked this word
because it's It's the synonym that AI

told me to use and it sounds bigger.

And I know that's an overly simplified
way to describe bad writing, but

I think it happens all the time.

It's, it's, Determining how to make
every paragraph surprising, that's even

the best when I, I'll read something
and then I'll say, wait, wait, what,

and then I'll go back and I'll reread
it and it's not even the information

that was imparted, but it was either the
words, how they were formed or ordered.

Or maybe it was.

The use of an ellipses that
somehow got me to pause in a way

that took me someplace that that
was an intentional device, right?

That that writer used.

Or I'm assuming it is if it
was good writing, maybe it

isn't if it's bad writing.

They just use an ellipsis because they
couldn't think of anything else to put.

Rupert Isaacson: But is
that, is that not true?

So when I said, no, it's not what I
meant by that was surely that is the

same for whether it's a how to train
your horse book or whether it's a memoir

or whether it's a fiction, but surely
that element of surprise and inspiration

needs to be there in each paragraph.

Obviously.

If it's a how to book, you may not
be able to have that in, and maybe

just you'll trade that for very good
information that's well structured, but in

a perfect world, we would have both, no?

Rebecca Didier: Absolutely.

Oh, absolutely.

I do agree with that statement, but I also
have some very, I would, I know I would

hand in the, in my direct to customer
experiences when I actually am standing

there in a physical kind of selling
and I would hand somebody a book and

say, I think this is a very good book.

It might be a.

Dry as can be but correct as hell and
I and I know that they're not going to

be met, you know misguided by it You

Rupert Isaacson: will you will
get what you're looking for from

this book, but you might have a

Rebecca Didier: good book.

Yes

Rupert Isaacson: You talked about AI

Rebecca Didier: yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: how's
how's how is this impacting

Rebecca Didier: So we actually have a
statement on our copyright page at this

time that indicates that we have not
used AI and neither have our authors

and that everything was handled by
experts through the whole process.

And I don't know all the wording, but
we are making that statement currently.

I don't know how long we'll be able to
include that statement simply because.

I think authors are certainly
using it in the gestation period.

You know, lots of people say this is
really what it's going to be useful

for right now before it gets smarter.

So kind of drumming up those
ideas, getting a start.

I have to try to be really open
minded when I talk about this,

all these things, because.

It doesn't make I enjoy
that part of the process.

So I understand why anybody
would want to skip over it.

I do know that editing it's some
publishers is now kind of the proofreading

stage is all a I a lot of layout is now
becoming more certainly cover design.

I think we'll see a lot more
books, especially on Amazon,

especially self published books
that all kind of look the same.

We'll certainly have plenty of
books that show up on Amazon

that are AI composed completely.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
that's an interesting one.

As a writer, I'm just wondering
where that is going to go.

Will AI begin to write very good books?

Rebecca Didier: I mean, it's, it's,
it's such an interesting question,

because I guess it, it's determined
by how human like AI gets, because I

would say it's across the board, and I
feel so desperately for our musicians

and our artists and And as well as
our writers who are all so impacted

by this, but these are the methods.

These are our methods of
telling the human story.

And these are our methods of of
Of sharing sorrow and enjoy and a

I conceivably doesn't understand
what those things feel like.

So we might argue, you'll always
know right that this was a I

generated because it just doesn't
have that sense of humanity.

But if it truly does evolve to a
place where it's more human, like,

then I guess it could acquire those.

Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: it's it's such a
intriguing thought and I don't know

if I think it's tragic or if I think
it's Not something worth having an

emotion about because hey, it's gonna
happen and or what what do I think?

I don't know But I think as you know, I'm
a writer you're a publisher it it It's the

obvious question at the moment and no, I
think it's hard to train a horse to AI.

Rebecca Didier: Yes

Rupert Isaacson: You know

Rebecca Didier: a horse will never
be trained by a robot I think they've

Rupert Isaacson: Likely at this point.

Yeah,

Rebecca Didier: they've tried they've
used job, you know, like robotic jockeys

and things like that for for working
with Very very difficult horses and

clearly it hasn't been successful.

It's just like

Rupert Isaacson: where
have they done that?

I haven't heard of that
Where have they tried that?

Rebecca Didier: I believe in

maybe like Saudi Arabia with
their endurance forces Arabs we

think our rate maybe with like
with some of their race forces

Rupert Isaacson: I'm, I'm, I'm picturing,
you know, rat reams of robots getting

chucked off into the sand dunes.

Rebecca Didier: Now I'm, I'm going to
say that I, I, I don't, I haven't read

stories of this published anywhere.

This is actually from a book that I'm
going to be publishing in the spring.

So clearly it is happening.

And.

So I'm gonna have to dig into it to
see, I, I, whether it's just kind of

experimental or how much it's being
used, but it, it does appear in a scene

in, in a, a book that I'm editing now.

Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.

Yeah.

Rebecca Didier: And I, I feel
similarly, another one of our authors

uses one of those mechanical horses.

Mm-hmm . Which I know they,
they use in therapeutic riding.

They use 'em for a lot of different
things and I know that they're effective

for helping us adjust position.

If you don't have a horse of your
own, you don't have them around.

Right.

But I, I also think that
that you can't learn to ride.

Rupert Isaacson: No, you can't.

I mean, it's interesting, you know,
you could argue that artificial

horses have been around forever.

A child's rocking horse is, is that.

And any of us who ever spent time on them
as kids, I think benefited in two ways.

One is we actually did learn
balance in a funny way.

And it probably did translate later.

But the other one, of course, is oxytocin.

You know, anything that rocks
our hips in rhythm like that.

So, cause you know, kid will rock for
hours on a rocking horse and self regulate

emotionally because, because of that.

And I could see the value of simulated.

Horses for that but it, but, you know,
the irony for me is that the whole

simulator is actually so much more
expensive than it's like, well, really the

Rebecca Didier: real thing just
for a weekend might be better.

Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

Yes.

It, I sort of can't see the AI thing as a
tragedy, but it's hard not to be nervous.

If you.

Were to predict where AI might be a good
thing within publishing and writing,

where, where would it be like, would
it, would it matter if in the gestation

period, somebody ordered their thoughts
through AI, but yet still produced a

finished product without, or will it get
to the point where we actually can't tell?

Rebecca Didier: I think,
I think you're right.

I think that that specific ability of
AI, use of AI is certainly one where I

can see it being acceptable if it's being
fact checked, if it's being edited at some

point in the game, I mean, it's, there
are software that has organized people's

material and it's been around for ages
and, you know, at the school where my

husband teaches now, it is something that
they're teaching kids how to do because

they think it's It's responsible to teach
young people how to use a I appropriately

and not for cheating right here.

This is what we want you to do with it.

This is actually an assignment

Rupert Isaacson: and it's not going away.

So you might as well not

Rebecca Didier: going away.

And I, and I really appreciate you
saying that, you know, being worried

about it or raging against it, which I
try to have tried really hard not to do.

I don't, I agree with you.

It's, it's going to happen.

Right.

And the, the, If I'm going to stay in
this space, if I'm going to continue to

be a patron of the arts, if I'm going
to continue to care about these things,

then I have to be open to the fact
that this is just going to be present.

And then I have reassured myself
with the idea that then it will

just, the funnel will kind of
narrow in terms of what is good.

So more of those of us who truly
appreciate fine work will seek

out, you know, the real, the real
artwork and everybody else just get

something from Wayfair anyway, right?

So,

Rupert Isaacson: yeah, I think,
I think you're right that

you know, it's interesting.

I was listening to another podcast
is very, you've probably heard of it.

It's called it's big.

It's called Diary of a CEO.

And I forget which investment guru
English guy who lives as a tax

exile in the Bahamas or not one of
those sets of islands down there.

Anyway I can't remember his name.

The question was, well, where to invest?

And the bloke immediately said, Oh, yeah.

Well, It's either AI

or crypto, and this was
interesting, or it's exact opposite.

And this was really interesting and
he, and he went on to elaborate,

he said, because the world will
increasingly become artificial, the

experience, having real experiences,
Whether natural or cultural, will

become more and more at a premium.

So he said it's probably now has
never been a better time to open a

wilderness guiding agent, because
people will need it more than

ever, seek it out more than ever.

And I wonder if within publishing,
as you say, and storytelling, if then

there becomes this thing of, well,

In a world which is dominated by AI,
to know that this thing was human

crafted, will that become, you know

Rebecca Didier: We'll charge more for it.

We'll charge more for it, yeah, exactly.

Well, I do believe
Good, glad to hear that.

I get this question all the time, right?

You know, does anybody want books anymore?

Do they, are they buying books anymore?

Well, book sales are,
are up again in general.

I'm saying, you know, mainstream when
the world came crashing down, granted,

it was before the big AI explosion, but
during the pandemic, books, book sales

were out of, you know, this world, it's
where people went for comfort and escape

when they couldn't go anywhere else.

And so I think, and I do know
that I default here because

it's my comfort zone, certainly.

But if our whole world is virtual, mostly.

If most of our conversations and
interactions are happening like

the one you and I are having
right now by a screen, if I, if

I rarely out in nature myself, do
I want to see nature on a screen?

I think I would rather
read about it in a book.

And then, of course, be there in
person would be my, my first choice.

But that escape from the screen of
screens are more and more present

that escape from the screen will
become more and more important.

And I do think value may actually
increase rather than decrease.

Rupert Isaacson: I'm inclined to agree.

I feel too that screens
are inherently tiring.

Yes.

Books are not.

Books seem to nourish
you and energize you.

We'll know, we'll get off this
Zoom call and both of us will

be like, well, I'm so great.

I'm so glad I had this conversation, but
I'm also so glad that I'm not looking

at that screen anymore, you know, and
I've got a bit of a headache, you know.

And that's just the nature of the beast,
but how lovely that we can do this.

Yes.

And at the same time, yes it would be
nicer over a pint in, you know, an actual

Rebecca Didier: Absolutely, yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Or on a horse.

Rebecca Didier: A pint on a horse.

Rupert Isaacson: A pint on a horse.

I was actually just saying on a windmill.

That's more or less what we would say.

That happens

Rebecca Didier: all the time, exactly.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: One of

Rebecca Didier: the story, one of the
stories that Sheila writes about in

her book is going to is it Go Gga?

Go?

Is that the, is that how you say it?

In, in Portugal?

Oh, GGA.

Rupert Isaacson: The, the
absolutely crazy festival of St.

Martin where

Rebecca Didier: Yes, yes.

Or the, the best,

Rupert Isaacson: Horse
breeders, but everyone else.

Amazing Lusitano horses and PF
them at the bar in the pubs.

Yeah.

Yes.

Rebecca Didier: Oh, you clearly
have witnessed it Yeah, I

Rupert Isaacson: have mostly Lusitano
horses and I've bred them in a small way

and yeah No, I spend a lot of time in
Portugal getting up to no good And yeah,

I've been to Golga and seen the sort of
lines at the bar of the bar stallions

Rebecca Didier: Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: the
guys are ordering drinks

Rebecca Didier: when she's describing it.

I was like I must go this Fabulous

Rupert Isaacson: Second
weekend in November.

Anyone who hasn't got absolute madhouse.

Rebecca Didier: St.

Martin's Summer, right?

Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: St.

Martin, Festival of St.

Martin.

But be warned, it's very easy
to come back with a horse.

Rebecca Didier: Well, bound to happen
sooner or later with me, right?

But

Rupert Isaacson: Lusitano
horses are hard to beat.

Rebecca Didier: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: So you're still riding?

You still have I do.

Rebecca Didier: I don't have
a horse of my own currently.

I ride whenever I can.

I have two motorcycles instead.

Rupert Isaacson: I was going to
ask you about the motorcycles.

Rebecca Didier: Well, I missed,
my brother got me into them.

He started toying around with cafe
racers probably about 15, 15 years ago.

With what racers?

Cafe erasers is the term.

They're like little Hondas and it started
in England kind of during you know,

during like the time of Hemingway and
all of that, where they were zipping

around writers and, you know, And the
cool people were zipping around from

pub to pub and, and being fabulous on
tiny little motorcycles that they would

then customize and they became known as
cafe racers because literally you would

go from pub from cafe to cafe, right?

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Rebecca Didier: And so he started
playing with these and I thought

they were incredibly cool and
sexy and I had to have one.

And so, I, I have a 1972 Honda.

That still has the inspection sticker
from 72 in Hawaii and so that's one

of them and then I have a Harley, but
that's simply because it replicates when

I'm going, when I'm riding one of them,
it replicates riding fast on a horse,

but they don't just

Rupert Isaacson: ride fast on a horse.

Then why not have, why have a motorcycle?

Rebecca Didier: No limits.

I've always found it very attractive.

I've always found
motorcycles very attractive.

And very exciting.

I can't figure out a way
to have a horse quite yet.

Their constant need for economic support
is not, is one that I'm going to,

I'm going to wait a little while yet.

But it is, it is in, it is in my,
that's the wonderful thing is people

talk about midlife horses all the time.

So my son will be going
to college soon and.

And then I'll have time for a horse again.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

We better go to Golga then.

Rebecca Didier: I think there'd be a whole
lot of trouble found in that situation.

Sounds like fun.

Rupert Isaacson: The good news
is that an awful lot of them

have pyroplasmosis, you know, and

Rebecca Didier: they can't,
you can't bring them back.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: You're
protected from many of them.

Yeah.

Rebecca Didier: So I
have a horse in Portugal.

It's fine.

Rupert Isaacson: Oh, yeah.

Well, okay.

I

Rebecca Didier: just have to fly
back whenever I want to write

Rupert Isaacson: that well,
that oddly enough is how I

really learned all my dressage.

I used to fly back and forth
from Portugal to Texas.

You know, I would even fly there
for like 48 hours to learn.

Wow.

Standing in the arena with Luis Valencia.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Who you have not published.

The book on by the way

Rebecca Didier: have not although
I've read other writings by

other people that reference him

Rupert Isaacson: He is probably
the greatest living exponent of the

classical writing form on the planet
And he has not yet written the book.

Someone needs to get in there and

Rebecca Didier: Does he
want to write the book?

He does, yeah, he does, he does.

Rupert Isaacson: It's just that he's,
it's Well, I'll see him tomorrow, I'll ask

Rebecca Didier: him.

There you go.

Like I was just talking
to this publisher girl.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because, you know, I've often wondered
that, you know, it would be a, it would be

a real shame if he ends up being the sort
of Socrates or the, You know, who, who

didn't write anything, but everyone else,

Rebecca Didier: everyone
else tells the story.

The

Rupert Isaacson: other one,
actually, there's one in the horse

world, and that's Pignatelli.

Pignatelli in the late 15th century,

no, late 16th century, early
17th century, produced the great

French horseman, Plouvenal.

Yeah.

Who, Basically reordered the French
economy through creating, talking the

French king into creating a series of
academies in which the young nobility

would learn horsemanship alongside other
arts and sciences, specifically because

he had observed that it made young men
able to control their emotions and they

could end the cycle of civil war in
France this way and then rival Spain.

Economically, and they were right,
and they did and the king went for it.

And, and that's why we have all
the French words in dressage,

because they were the first ones
to put the government stamp on it.

Even though

Rebecca Didier: clearly we need to
institute something like that here

in the US, because our young men
have an issue and they all need to be

learning how to control their emotions.

Rupert Isaacson: You know, if
everybody, if, yeah, if writing

was a state sponsored thing.

Maybe, maybe we'd all be happy.

It'd be nice.

But yeah, Pignatelli never wrote
anything and so we only have, we only

have People's interpretations of him,
but he created all these legendary

people like Pluvinel and so on and so
on, you know, Socrates created Plato

and Xenophon, we will be talking about.

Yeah.

There's a philosopher
and a horseman for you.

Rebecca Didier: I should

Rupert Isaacson: have

Rebecca Didier: said Xenophon.

Missed opportunity.

Rupert Isaacson: Hey,
well, we'll get there.

Do a whole thing on Xenophon.

If you know, again, listeners, if you
haven't heard of Xenophon, interesting

dude because the horsey people know him
as supposedly the father of dressage.

But he's not, he even writes specifically
in his own book that he writes in 400 BC.

I learned it in Persia.

And the philosophers know him as the
founder of Stoic philosophy because he was

a product of Socrates and a mate of Plato.

And the military historians and military
people like West Point and so on know

him as the master of the tactical
withdrawal because he brought 10, 000

mercenaries back home safe from having
lost a big battle near Baghdad and got

them all home to Greece learning the
horsemanship along the way interesting.

And that's sort of back to that point of
how horses have actually shaped humanity.

And It's getting more and more overlooked.

It used to be taken for granted.

You're a publisher, you know, specializing
in the equestrian world, but talk to

me about the relationship of horses to
the humanities and horses to humanity.

Rebecca Didier: So I think everybody
kind of knows that general history

and you're right that we're losing.

We're losing a little bit of the
plot because Because our lives

were so interwoven naturally with
horses for so long that now it's

all kind of, it's almost contrived.

Most, in most cases, it is, it's,
it's something that's a hobby.

It's something that, you know, very,
very, actually, I have to backtrack

because there are lots of other
countries who have horses who need

horses, equines in general, who depend
upon them for their livelihoods, for

getting water, for moving bricks.

It's easy to forget that horses are still

Rupert Isaacson: absolutely at the center
of a lot of economies in the world.

Rebecca Didier: They absolutely are.

And there's a great organization called
the Brook in the UK and Brook USA in the

US that works very hard to help ensure
the, the welfare of those animals.

And so you're helping animals
with the intent that by helping

those animals, you then help the
communities that depend upon them.

It's a, it's a favorite
organization of ours.

But in the, in our world, in the
first world, it is a luxury now to

have horses in our lives, usually.

And that there's a tragic element to that.

And you and I understand why that's
tragic because of what they do

for us as a connection to nature.

As an a mirror of ourselves as apparently
proven all recommended that they help

us learn to manage our emotions having
perhaps if we, if we really examined

it, and I haven't, but if we looked
at history, and we looked at kind of

tracked how, and I would use America
as an example, simply because I'm

American, but how our societies and
how we've interacted with each other

has changed since forces stopped being.

Like a regular component of
everyday life of most people.

I wonder if we could draw a direct
correlation to a breakdown in, you

know, our abilities to communicate
our abilities to reflect on our own.

Emotions, our abilities
to connect with nature.

There are a lot of pieces of course,
that play into that, but it'd be

interesting if there was actually a
correlation, it wasn't that many years

ago, really, if you really looked at it,
that everybody had a horse, everybody.

And now, and I talked a little bit
about this earlier, but in Vermont, and

specifically, even in my short lifespan,
it used to be that I, I knew most of

my classmates, somebody, you know,
maybe 10 out of 20 kids had horses.

just to have an animal.

And now, you know, none, I would say maybe
one at the most in a class like that.

You just don't find them anymore.

And what are we missing
in an emotional level?

If we're not, certainly there's a
practical, you know, caring for a being

ensuring that that creature is taken
care of before we are there are lots

of lessons that we learn and we build.

It within ourselves that we can then
apply to other human beings through

horses, but that emotional component
is, of course, the most interesting one.

It's the one that is helping
in the therapeutic world.

It's the one that brings me
out to go trail riding with

my friends on the weekends.

And then afterward, it's like, I
feel lighter physically lighter.

So, yes, I'm enjoying it.

I'm getting the rocking motion, but
there's a release and that comes

with bonding with that animal.

Rupert Isaacson: I also feel that
horses have this special place for

us because they, they carry us.

Mm hmm.

You know, you could, I'm looking at my dog
who's asleep next to my son actually in

a little day bed right there next to me.

Dogs, fantastic.

For all the many reasons, dogs are
fantastic and all animals are, of

course, but at least in our culture,
the horse is the one that carries

us and it carries so it can carry
us through transitions in life.

It can carry us from.

One environment to the next
environment can carry us from one

emotional state to another state.

It can help us conquer fear.

It can heal us.

It can give us the rocky motion and
make us feel better through oxytocin.

It can also kill us.

So it can, it can connect us
with danger and our mortality

and that perspective on life.

And I, I do feel that
that's a very special.

But especially as a city, what
a unique role that you know,

we don't have elephants and
camels in our culture really.

So we're not riding around on those.

So the horse, the horse carries us at
speed and, and always lends beauty.

Yes.

You know, you just have to have a horse
present and everything is beautiful.

And they sort of lend this to us.

I, I, I do feel that aesthetics are only
people are just beginning to, you know,

as you know, I work in neuroscience
a fair bit there's a, the burgeoning

field of neuro aesthetics and people
realizing the importance of beauty

because of course we're organisms, right?

And we're designed for planet earth and
planet earth happens to be very beautiful.

So yeah.

We naturally respond to that.

And we are divorcing ourselves
more and more from it.

I feel the environments that
we live in just are not.

Yes.

And they could be, but you know, you go
and see your average strip mall or your

average housing development and it's like,
whoa, it's almost like there's a war.

On aesthetics.

Why?

Yeah.

You know, does it make people
easier to control because they're

depressed or something, you know,

Rebecca Didier: I would do wonder.

And it's funny you bring
that up specifically.

I lived in the city in
Boston for 16 years.

And while I was there, I mean, we lived
in a, in a beautiful building, but

while I was there, I, I didn't notice.

And it's probably because I was
involved in the world and there.

And so the beauty that I found was
in, you know, the murals on the walls

and the roses that bloomed in October
out of the cracks in the sidewalk.

And the wonderful.

Food and the flood of
different colored faces.

There was lots of
different kinds of beauty.

Right.

But

Rupert Isaacson: and architecturally
Boston central Boston is a beautiful city.

Rebecca Didier: Absolutely.

But if I drive, you know, given
where I'm living currently, which is.

I would give it an aesthetic
rating of, you know, nine out

of ten, it's pretty beautiful.

And I am thankful for that every
morning when I walk my dog.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Rebecca Didier: And I walked the
same dog in different parts of

Boston and thought, oh, how beautiful
or, or didn't really notice.

And now I go back and I think, oh, you
know, it's like an immediate impact.

And it's, I'm, it's not like I'm old.

It's not like I don't see the
excitement of the city anymore.

And I don't feel that vibe anymore.

I do think you're right.

I think it's.

And it's, it's something about the
visual absorption and maybe our reaction

to it physically and emotionally
to make it okay is tiring us out.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I mean, and I
think to those, you know, the older

architecture, if you talk about
architecture of 150 years ago, well,

it did actually reflect nature.

The, the proportions of what
we would call the Vitruvian.

Proportions were directly
taken from nature.

So that kind of classical
architecture is pleasing to the eye.

But of course, what's built now is not
most, almost everything built since World

War Two is almost deliberately brutal.

Yes.

And I think it brutalizes us.

Right.

But.

Horses don't because even
though we can end up being

egotistical arseholes with horses.

So maybe I'm disproving my own point
there, but at least they give us a chance.

I don't know.

But I, I do feel that as an equestrian
publisher, you, you actually are a

nature publisher and a humanities
publisher, just not under those

names, maybe, you know what I mean?

Rebecca Didier: Yeah, well, I think if I
look at it through that lens and I think

about trying to encourage more people
to spend time with horses to encourage

more people to understand horses to we
publish books now that aren't necessarily

for people who have horses, but for
people who might be interested in horses.

So, yes, it's, it's, it's
broadening the world.

Or welcoming others into that
world, I hope, and therefore,

and therefore it would classify.

We would then maybe be a little bit
classified in those genres as as helping

people understand nature better horses
being a part of nature as helping

people understand the history of how
they've impacted us and how they and

hopefully how they can continue to do.

So

I don't, you know, somewhere along
the line, somebody said You know, do

they really need another horse book?

We've published a lot.

We've published hundreds of horse books.

So, is there really a
need for another one?

And it seems such an odd question
to me because, you know, It,

it horses are ubiquitous.

It's like anything else.

Is there another need for
another book that fictionalizes

a character who's a writer?

I mean, it's like every fiction,
every novel in the world has a

character who's a writer, right?

So to say, do we really need another
book with horses in it or about horses?

Rupert Isaacson: Well, also
that the equestrian culture

is an ever evolving thing.

Yes.

So, the answer is yes, because
it must reflect that evolution.

I do have to say, though, it's interesting
that there are aspects of the equestrian

culture, say, within the Americas
that I was exposed to in Texas, that

are completely absent from the canon.

And so, for example, The the charos,
the Mexican cowboys who are riding and

training in the style of Grizzoni and
fiasco of the sort of early Renaissance

pre pluval now and I was really
interested I when I I learned a lot

from those guys about Piaf and Passage
and pirouettes and changes and things

like that, but none of the like white
dressage queens from Austin, Texas,

that would dream of going for a lesson
from one of those people and, or, or

entertain the thought that the bloke
that came around to fix the radiators

might actually be a really good horseman.

Yeah.

That was this absolute disconnect.

Including in the town we lived in
Elgin, the rodeo ground had a chariada,

you know, the Mexican rodeo, and.

A, a white rodeo.

Mm-hmm . But the two crowds would not mix.

And because we were doing Iberian
horses, we kind of interplayed

a little bit between the two.

And so you saw, you saw a lot of
incredibly fine horsemanship that

was out of a particular period in
European history, kind of preserved.

And, you know, at the end of the
Tata, there'd be these classical

performances and the winner would
be the one that got the most

emotional response from the crowd.

Yeah, but it's not, you
can't find any books on it.

You can't find anything on it.

You know, even though you've got families
from there, like the Contreras family

who trained the horses for medieval
times, those franchises who they're

very well trained horses and so on.

And then the other one, of course, is the
The single footers, the the who are not

the black cowboys, but the descendants
of the freed slaves that came out mm-hmm.

Of and settled Central Texas in
particular, but you get them everywhere.

You've seen those Juneteenth
parades with the gated horses.

Yep.

We'd have these, you'd hear
that in front of our house.

Yeah.

In the countryside in Texas.

And then you'd hear the, and
there'd be like 200 dudes

would come by on their horses.

With their like hairy cornrows all
wearing their gangster gear with these

beer trucks following them And all
of them on gated horses, you know,

where does this come from, you know?

And I did some articles on
them, for European papers

because it was just so amazing.

But again, I couldn't there was
nothing represented in the sort of

American equestrian canon on this So
I wonder for you all, do you think

you'll start to branch out a little bit
culturally as well, even within the US?

Rebecca Didier: So it's, it's a good
question, because of course, it's

very much on my mind as the managing
editor that I'm dealing with both,

both a lexicon that's extremely white
and and a general population that is

as well in terms of our readership.

And.

I'm on a couple of committees just in
the industry in general, where we've been

talking about representation and if there
can be representation, then we can maybe

persuade more people to come to horses who
might not necessarily see themselves as.

As, as it being possible, I have, I
would say that in, in both these cases,

if somebody has to want to write the
book I've made, I've made advances

in a number of cases, putting it out
there saying, you know, we need, we

need this book, somebody, we need
this book and the, the, the person

who wants to write it hasn't arrived.

And it needs to be an
individual clearly from that.

From both that cultural background
and with both the basis of knowledge

or access who can share the stories.

So, I'm, I'm hopeful that we're going
to find ways to, to modernize what

it is that we publish and also what
it is that's out there because it, it

certainly is reflective of, of what the
publishers chose to preserve in the past.

Rupert Isaacson: Sure.

I mean, you know, it was,
that was the culture of it.

It's, it's, it's interesting.

You know, another one is that we
talked about Xenophon learning

his horsemanship in Persia.

You know, there's this whole kind
of gap in medieval Europe between

the ancient world of people writing
about horse training and the

Renaissance world where they will go.

And of course, There's a whole canon.

But it's all Islamic.

But it's all sitting there in places
like the School for Oriental and

African Studies in, in London.

Books on dressage, you know, written by
people in Andalusia in the 10th century,

you know, and people in what's now
Iraq, you know, in the fourth century.

And stuff concurrent with Rumi,
you know, and, and it would be

wonderful to see some of this stuff.

beginning to filter into
the sort of mainstream.

So it's exciting for you, I guess,
because you're in a position

where you could make that happen.

Rebecca Didier: I think that it's
especially given there, there are a

couple of different directions that
if our company were to grow and to

evolve, one of them that would be
worthwhile would certainly be kind

of seeking out and helping preserve.

Traditions that have not yet been
shared for the very reasons that

we've already talked about that.

Otherwise, it just becomes
something that's handed down.

Orally,

I think that would, it's almost like
a mission that that has to that has to

be because those are at least in this.

In this current market, those
are almost like academic works.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, exactly.

Rebecca Didier: Yeah, so the
market would be very specific, but.

how fun it would be to, to
work on projects like that.

Rupert Isaacson: Maybe that's
where fiction comes in.

Rebecca Didier: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Speaking of
fiction, my final question for you.

So we hit the sort of two hour mark,
your novel, that novel that did not

get born back then, what was it about?

And might it get born?

Rebecca Didier: Well, so,
I've always really wanted to

write gritty literary fiction.

I'm, I'm kind of a, I don't,
maybe I don't come across that

way, but I'm kind of a hard nosed
fiction writer in a lot of ways.

And at the time when I was a young, when
I was in my 20s and I was first writing

this, I would describe it as very dark.

It exists.

Do I think it is worth
revising and bringing out?

I, I don't, I really don't know.

Maybe pieces of it.

I think that it was, I think it
was a necessary step in the arc

of my kind of writing Genesis.

I am now working on another idea
that, again, kind of set in modern

times nothing to do about horses.

That I, that I think is more
reflective of, of who I am as

a person and as a writer now.

And I'm not, I'm not one who's all about
infusing, lots of fiction writers are

all about infusing autobiographical
elements into their books.

I'm not, I don't feel strongly that
way, but I do, I do think that I'm a

very different writer than I was then.

Things are, different
things are important to me.

And I think that would probably come
across in the characters that I create

and how they, how they evolve on the page.

Rupert Isaacson: So what's the book about?

Rebecca Didier: I can't tell you.

Yes,

Rupert Isaacson: you can.

Give me, give me a thumbnail.

Rebecca Didier: I think it's
going to probably take place.

Probably in Boston.

It's probably gonna be based on a similar
community to the one that I lived in.

There's a number of reasons why
I was witness to the kind of

interesting dynamic that comes, that
is currently still happening as a,

as spaces like that gentrify which is
something that interests me anyway.

And the characters that I've
been imagining in this space are.

You know, there will be,
there's going to be a crime.

The question, of course,
is whether it was a crime.

And if so, how it was committed and who
committed it and and all the different.

Assumptions that are made
in in a community like that.

I think it has potential in
terms of me getting it done and

then we'll and then we'll simply
because it's it's very alive in me.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, well,
you clearly are a writer.

You've co written many, many of the
books on the Trafalgar Square list.

So yeah,

Rebecca Didier: it's.

It's, I mean, there are, I
was reading it somewhere.

I can't remember where, but it
was something about knowing,

knowing what it is that is true
to you, but you don't, I got it.

Maybe I don't actually have to
publish a book to be a to be a writer.

And it takes a lifetime to kind of
come around to that understanding.

And I had a conversation with
somebody who now teaches theater,

but always wanted to be an actor.

And we both kind of came to the
agreement in that conversation.

Well, maybe that was his
role was to teach theater.

And and how is that wrong?

How is that a failing?

Rupert Isaacson: Oh, it's not.

It's not at all.

I think I think you're absolutely right.

But I do think there's something in the
starting and finishing of the story.

Right.

whether or not you publish it that

massively affects your
perspective on life.

And it's interesting as an editor,
because for listeners you need to

know if you're not already writers,
that there is no good without.

Usually one, sometimes up to three
or four extremely good editors.

It just does not happen.

If you liked any of the books
that I wrote, it's because the

editors did a fantastic job
and they were uncompromising.

Threw that thing back
at me numerous times.

And of course it's the same in film.

It's the same in music.

It's the same in any of the arts there.

The editor is an artist.

In the same league as the one
that gets called the artist.

So I'm, I'm a great believer that if
you are a good editor and you are a

good editor that is actually the art.

But if you then as an editor challenge
yourself to start and finish a story

and take your editor's eye to it and
then put it in front of other editors.

Well, what will it do?

But hone your editing art.

Yeah, but it is an art and it's forgotten.

It's it's it's not value because people
don't know But really the editor ought

to be on the spine of the book too.

Rebecca Didier: Oh,
you're so you're my hero

Rupert Isaacson: Well, I just know you
just know I mean if the editor is not good

your book is shit like it really is I mean

Rebecca Didier: so many people
today don't think you need one

Rupert Isaacson: That's
their little heart say

Rebecca Didier: It might be good, I'd put
it this way, as parting words to everybody

who wants to write and publish a book.

You can self publish, and the book might
be really good, but I promise it will

be better if an editor works on it.

Rupert Isaacson: You can't see
me, listeners, but I'm nodding

in a really exaggerated way.

When I was first starting out as a
writer, one of my Heroes was a guy

called Rian Malan, who's a South African
writer who wrote a very good book

called My Traitor's Heart about Boy,
his relationship with Apartheid and

it was a masterpiece and I said, you
know, what's the most important thing?

He said Rupert, structure, structure,
structure and the way you're gonna find

that is through your editor And I, I know
we were walking in London as you said

it to me, I must have been 20 something.

And I went, I sort of stopped,
went, Ooh, that's a truth.

I can feel that's the truth.

So now when I'm, when I'm going to write
or publish a book, I'm sort of terrified

that I won't find the right editor.

And I agree with you, Rebecca,
for listeners who do want to self

publish, spend money on good editing.

Rebecca Didier: Agreed.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Yeah.

It will pay you back in space.

Alright.

Closing thing.

I want you to recommend five
books that we should read.

They can also, they can be
from the RAF square list.

I hope some of them are . But
give us, give us the one how

Rebecca Didier: Shameless,
how shameless should I be?

Rupert Isaacson: Oh, it'd
be totally shameless.

I'm actually, was like, was,
was, was editors shameless?

Does I

?
Rebecca Didier: Alright, well I'll start.

One of my favorite books that
I've read in the past 10 years.

Was H is for Hawk by Helen Macdonald.

H

Rupert Isaacson: is for Hawk, yes, yes.

Rebecca Didier: H is for Hawk.

A lot of people have probably
already read it, but I

Rupert Isaacson: By?

Rebecca Didier: By Helen Macdonald.

Rupert Isaacson: Helen Macdonald, yes.

Rebecca Didier: Gosh, it was fabulous.

And I, I, it's a book that I,
that I've re read, actually.

Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: that's nature
writing at its best, yeah.

Rebecca Didier: Oh, so good.

Rupert Isaacson: By the way, quick aside
there, are you, have you read much by T.

H.

White?

Mm mm You've heard of
the Sword in the Stone?

Oh yeah.

He wrote The Sword in the Stone
and his book, and also the Once

in Future King, which is the full
telling of the King Arthur story.

That, yeah.

Masterpiece writer.

Okay.

But he wrote a book called The Goshawk.

Oh, and H is for Hawk is
very much inspired by that.

Rebecca Didier: Yeah.

She references it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Go,

Rupert Isaacson: go, go read the Godshaw.

Rebecca Didier: Okay.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

Okay, next one.

Rebecca Didier: I've just finished.

This is out of print, and you'll have
to look for it, but it's worth it.

It's called Wyoming Summer.

Rupert Isaacson: Wyoming Summer by?

Rebecca Didier: Mary O'Hara, and
some people will recognize that name

because she wrote My Friend Flicka,

Rupert Isaacson: Thunderhead,

Rebecca Didier: and Green
Grass, Grasses of Wyoming.

That's a horse

Rupert Isaacson: book.

Those

Rebecca Didier: are horse books, correct.

Wyoming Summer.

Was sent to me by one of my
authors as a gift, a thank

you gift for editing her book.

And I, I enjoyed every
second I spent on that book.

Mary O'Hara was an incredible writer,
and this was a collection of her journal

entries from her time in Wyoming.

She actually sent them to a publisher
to have them published, and the

publisher came back and said, I'm
not going to publish this, but you

should turn it into fiction, and
that's what Became my friend Flicka.

This tells you about her backstory,
but nature writing, absolutely, her

descriptions of Wyoming and living there,
and it would have been the 1940s, it

was just after World War II, and there
are some of the most moving passages

I've read in a really long time but an
old book, an out of print book, it's

just one that I've read very recently.

Rupert Isaacson: Wyoming Summer.

Thank you.

Wyoming

Rebecca Didier: Summer.

Let's see.

Okay, we'll do, I'll, I'll throw
in there my Never Burn Your

Moving Boxes by JoLynn Young.

JoLynn is a, is a, a new writer, so I
think she's going to grow into herself.

But if you're willing to experience
other people's lives through

writing, this is a good one to
open your eyes to what it's like.

It's like

Rupert Isaacson: being the wife of one
of the guys from Brokeback Mountain.

Rebecca Didier: Yes.

Yes.

Except I don't think that that that
is happening with her husband, but

Rupert Isaacson: I remember a couple of
scenes where, you know, like the wife of,

Rebecca Didier: yes,

Rupert Isaacson: I remember thinking,
Ooh, I bet she's got an interesting story.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Rebecca Didier: And, and, and,
and Jolin is an incredibly

interesting woman and you, you were
the writing may be more simple.

You see.

Between the lines of the simple
writing what it is that's

happening on a personal level.

And it's, it's just, it's, it's, it's a
great story to familiarize yourself with.

What's another one?

This one's not, that one's not out yet.

Distant Skies.

I'm sorry to recommend
another Trafalgar Square book.

And again, these are, this is a memoir.

This is by Melissa Chapman and.

I've often described it as a book.

I, I probably, so I edited it and I
probably read it what, like 24 times or

whatever in that, during that process,
you know, with the back and the forth

and the sections and what have you, every
single time I read the end, I cried,

even after I had read it as many times
as I had read it and recently I read

the end again, for some reason, I think
there was some publicity around her book

and I It like hurt again to read it.

It's it's an incredibly authentic again.

There's a simplicity to it.

It's about she was when she was
in her early 20s in the early 80s.

So before cell phones, she rode by
herself across the United States

from New York to California.

And.

It's the magic in this book is
about all the people she meets

along the way who she didn't know.

So it's about connections.

And and again, it gets us to that
humanity and and how a horse.

Brings us closer to people we who
are strangers and being the non

Hobbesian half of my relationship.

It's all about the good and
people rather than the bad.

So

Rupert Isaacson: great distance.

Guys, Melissa Chapman writing America.

You got one more

Rebecca Didier: more.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay,

Rebecca Didier: this is this is going to
deviate from my kind of nature writing.

And memoir recommendations, but
you've probably already read it.

The Warmth of Other Suns.

Who is, is it Wilkerson?

She wrote Cast.

I didn't, I didn't know a lot.

Of course, I grew up, I learned
a certain amount about our U.

S.

history and slavery and every, and how
that all transpired in Jim Crow and the

South and the North and blah, blah, blah.

The Warmth of Other Suns tells
the story of the Great Migration.

In the, in the United States, which was,
you know, basically vast numbers of black

people leaving the South because of Jim
Crow and moving to cities in the North,

Rupert Isaacson: and

Rebecca Didier: she tells the
stories through the histories

of a certain cast of characters.

And.

I am, I was utterly fascinated.

First of all, because it's not,
it's not like we've all learned

about the Great Migration.

Somehow, I think many of us have not.

I didn't even know
there was a term for it.

And second of all, because I, I, I
could kind of wrap my head around

a lot of the laws and facts and
newsworthy not newsworthy, but news

items of that period of time they were,
they were so kind of stylistically

sandwiched into the stories of these,
I think there's five or six different.

Different individuals she follows from the
south to the north and where they where

they end up and then and and how they age
and succeed in the north or don't succeed,

and how their families changed afterward.

Really, really, that's a good example of
really good writing and my estimation,

and a really great way to learn
something that I didn't know about.

Incredibly effective book.

Rupert Isaacson: The Warmth of Other Sons.

Rebecca Didier: Yep.

Rupert Isaacson: Duns as in the Sun Sons.

Yes.

Isabel Wilkerson.

Yeah.

Correct.

Isabel, will Wilkerson.

Brilliant.

I shall be off to the bookshop.

. I have not read it, but
I have heard support.

Rebecca Didier: Indie works.

Indie bookstores, yeah.

Yes.

Off to the bookstore.

Rupert Isaacson: Do go and buy your
books from bookstores guys, please.

Rebecca Didier: Yes, please.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Rebecca Didier: Yes, please.

Rupert Isaacson: All right.

Listen Rebecca, thank you
so much for your time.

It's been brilliant.

Rebecca Didier: Yeah, great fun.

Even better in Portugal
with a glass of green wine.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, hey

Rebecca Didier: You'll be there.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I, I hope we can get you on the
other podcasts that I do, which

is called equine assisted world.

And that we could maybe go a bit more
into some of the books and some of

the practitioners that you publish
who you feel we should be looking at.

But until then, thank you.

Rebecca Didier: Thank you.

This was great fun.

Keep,

Rupert Isaacson: Keep throwing.

Good stuff at us.

Rebecca Didier: I'll do my best.

I'll try not to slow down.

Rupert Isaacson: And it's Trafalgar
Square Publishing, lads, to go

to it, check out the myriad extra
cool titles that they've got.

Some of them, as you can see, you
don't have to be a horse person to

you don't have to be a horse person
to love, for example Distant Skies

or Never Burn Your Moving Boxes.

You know, if you, if you love the
American West, if you love nature.

You'll find good writing.

Thank you for joining us.

We hope you enjoyed today's podcast.

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