Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Live Free
Ride Free, where we talk to people who

have lived self-actualized lives on
their own terms, and find out how they

got there, what they do, how we can
get there, what we can learn from them.

How to live our best lives, find
our own definition of success,

and most importantly, find joy.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.

New York Times bestselling
author of the Horse Boy.

Founder of New Trails Learning
Systems and long ride home.com.

You can find details of all our programs
and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.

Welcome back to Live Free, Ride Free,
where we talk to people who are living

self actualized lives and finding
out what we can learn from them.

And how we can self actualize more.

So today I've got a
rather interesting man.

I've got Victor Barna, who is
both a techie he's up there in

Seattle, teching away, and we're
going to ask him about that.

And he's also the author of a book,
of a new thriller, about the racing

industry, the horse racing industry.

Which is doing quite well.

And he's a lifelong passionate
devotee of the racing industry.

His book delves into some of the
darker sides of the racing industry,

which of course is pretty interesting.

Makes it interesting as a thriller and it
joins a long line of racing thrillers by

authors such as Dick Francis and so on.

But at the same time he does draw
attention to some of the things

within that industry that could do
better, that could use some reform.

And also he's in a position to sort of
talk about how as a young boy in Long

Island growing up far from horses, he
sort of Managed to self actualize both

as a, as a geek and as someone who fell
in love with the horse and Speed and

that the sort of beauty and of the whole
aesthetic and has managed to sort of

marry the two things together in a rather
interesting way While living in You

know, a quiet private life and, you know,
the sort of life that most of us lead.

So I think for those of you who are
interested in how do you write a good

book and how do you self publish it,
those of you who are interested in

the racing industry, those of you
who are interested in tech, and how

the whole tech boom has happened
and where it's going and all that, I

think Victor's got a lot to tell us.

And his book Heliacal Star
sort of serves as a bit of a

nexus for all of these things.

So, welcome to Live
Free Ride Free, Victor.

Please tell us a little bit about
who you are and how you came to be.

Victor Bahna: Well, thank you
for, for the invite and thank

you for having me on today.

I really appreciate it.

And as far as, you know, my, my
story is, as you referenced, I,

I grew up on Long Island not You
know, from a geographic perspective,

just a few miles from JFK airport.

So, pretty close to to New York City
and not a place where you necessarily

find a lot of horses, unless you're
at Belmont racetrack, which is also

kind of on the New York City line.

And not too far from where I grew up
and that's, that's where I actually

was first introduced to to any kind of
a horse through through, through the

racing business when I was probably
not legal to be gambling on horses.

I found my way to to the racetrack
and it was at a time where.

We actually had to ask other older people
to make our bets for us because we would

get carded and and not allowed to bet.

But that was my first that
was my first experience with

with horses and with racing.

And it was very alluring.

It was very intoxicating.

There was a bit of a taboo in the sense
of, you know, we weren't legal to do that.

So we had that sort of allure but
there was also this, this potential for

making money by doing a little homework,
understanding, you know, how to read

a racing form and, and handicap and
putting ourselves in a position where we

could possibly win, win a few dollars.

And then after winning a couple of
dollars, a few times, you know, that.

Also sort of became an interesting
hobby, let's say amongst

myself and a few of my friends.

And so this is this is where we spent
our, our classroom time in in high

school, oftentimes, you know, inside
of our textbooks, we would find some of

the past performances of the racetracks.

And instead of paying attention
to the, the instruction of the

day, we would be figuring out who
was going to win the late double.

And that was that was a fun

Rupert Isaacson: bus.

In other words,

Victor Bahna: Yes, we were doing calculus
and math and statistical analysis back

then we were we were a little ahead
of our time, I guess, in that sense.

And this is, of course, before
the Internet and before the Sort

of the tech boom, so to speak.

So, you know, everything was on paper
back then, and we had our our pens

and markings and all that other stuff.

That was seems like a very long time ago.

And, you know, what?

How do you say it?

Long time ago in a place far, far away.

And so, after college, went to, went
to college on Long Island as well.

Found myself employed at a personal
products company called Unilever,

which you may be familiar with.

Rupert Isaacson: I went to school
next door to the head office.

Victor Bahna: Ah, okay.

There you go.

In the city of London.

Yeah.

Yep.

Yep.

It was anglis, Anglo Dutch company.

Mm-Hmm.

. It had had headquarters in in, in
London, excuse me, and in Netherlands.

And so I spent my first eight years
of my career working in supply.

For in New York City for Unilever,
the subsidiary was called Lever

Brothers in in New York City.

It was quite a, quite a nice place.

It was on Park Avenue.

And so I got to have that experience
of, of working in downtown

Manhattan for for about 8 years.

And I got a call from Microsoft at that
time, and it was 1995, and they were

looking for someone to, this is when we
were still doing a lot of shrink rep.

1995 product for for tech.

So everything was in a, in a floppy disk.

CDs weren't even out yet at that time.

So everything was boxed up in floppy
disks and, and there was a supply

chain, and believe it or not for for
technology back then, and Microsoft

was trying to launch their windows 95
product, and we're looking for someone

to help them with their supply chain.

So I interviewed, got the job.

We ended up going from
New York to Seattle.

Which is where I am today, ended
up spending 17 years at Microsoft.

And I went from the interesting
thing about Microsoft at that time

was you can actually reinvent your
career without changing your company.

They were very much a company that
looked at your skills and your talent.

And they understood that even
if you weren't necessarily.

Deep in one particular domain, we
could train you in that domain.

If you had different skills,
like leadership skills and.

Acumen for learning and so forth.

So I actually ended up going from supply
chain while I was at Microsoft into it.

And my first exposure to it was running
their internal help desk, which I did

for a couple of years, but the help
desk I thought was the best way for

me to get introduced into tech because
I got to learn everything through the

problems people were experiencing.

And these were users.

Of Mike, since it was an internal
help desk, it wasn't for external

customers, but it helped me understand
where people were running into issues.

And it was actually in almost
a backwards way of learning.

But, but you, because typically when you
learn in a textbook, you're learning about

how things are supposed to work and I was
learning about things because they were

broken and kind of reverse engineering
back to how it should be working.

And so that was a very unique, but I
thought pretty powerful way for me to

to get into it and to get into tech.

And started out managing vendors
initially, but then, you know, when you

immerse yourself in that environment.

You start to pick up and learn
the jargon and the technology

and it evolved from there.

I ended up doing several things
in the tech space, or in the IT

space, I should say with Microsoft.

Then they started launching their
online services which you may know

today as it's Azure and it's Office
365 or the sort of Charter products

that they, that they offer on online.

And so, I did some, some
work with with those groups.

Went to another company called
ServiceNow back in 2012.

Spent a few years with them and
then ended up with my current

company which is Nutanix.

When I was at Microsoft, it was
probably about, I want, I want to

say about 10 years into the gig at
Microsoft, where I was fortunate enough

to have accumulated some some equity.

And I started to revisit my
interest in horses at that time.

So I went to a local racetrack
here called Emerald downs.

And after a couple of visits to their
track, I kind of got that because, because

for a long time between really, you know,
my college years and this you know, 10

years into Microsoft, I hadn't spent a lot
of time at the races with horses, because

I'd just been super busy, you know,
with work and the family and young kids

and all the stuff that comes with that.

And so finally, I got to the point
where, Hey, I have a little bit of time.

I have a little bit of money went back
to the racetrack and that feeling came

back in terms of the excitement and the
allure, but this time I was looking at

it from a slightly different perspective
and I went to what, what they had an

owners or potential owners seminar and
a couple of trainers were speaking at

the seminar and it just, it just was
something that seemed like it would

be a really interesting, you know,

Pursuit to maybe get into the
ownership side of, of racing.

And Emerald downs is not your
Belmont or Saratoga, or, you

know, the Santa Anita or Del Mar.

It's not one of your bigger venues.

So the entry point into ownership
is not very high compared to

some of those other places.

The, the, the cost of a horse is
going to be a little bit lower.

The day rate's going to
be a little bit lower.

So it's a.

It was an easier place to.

Rupert Isaacson: What's the day rate?

What does that mean?

Victor Bahna: The day rate would be what
you're paying your trainer basically for

the boarding and training feeding care of
your horse when they're out of the track

and those day rates can vary quite a lot.

Back then it was probably 50 or 55 a
day in Washington state where yeah,

If you were in some of the bigger
circuits like Del Mar or or New York, it

would be over a hundred dollars a day.

So almost a two X
difference in, in day rate.

And you know, over the course of 30 days,
that can, that can add up quite a bit.

Yeah.

So, so I did, I, I ended
up claiming a horse.

What is my first claiming horse, claiming
horse basically is every horse that's in

a claiming race is effectively for sale.

And what you would do is you would
Make sure you've got the funds at the

bookkeeper ahead of the race and you
would file a form that would basically be

a claim form that, that says you intend
to buy this horse, you've got the funds

which means after the race is over, that
horse becomes yours, but the results of

the race still go to the previous owner.

What makes claiming interesting
is that it's a bit of a.

It levels the playing field quite
a bit with with the races in the U.

S., because if you're putting your
horse up for sale for, let's say, 20,

000 and your horse can't compete at
that level, then you're going to have

to drop that horse into a lower level.

So you might have to drop them into
a 10, 000 race or even a 5, 000 race

where they become more competitive.

That makes them more likely
to be claimed or sold, you

know, in that race as an owner.

You don't know if that horse is, you don't
know if another owner has made a claim on

your horse until after the race is over.

So you don't have the option of, let's
say, withdrawing your horse because, oh,

wait, I don't want this horse to get sold.

So therefore I'm going to pull them
out of the race at the last minute.

You don't know if anyone's putting
in a claim, so you don't really.

have a you're not going to be
able to make that decision.

So that's what I ended up doing is
I put in a claim for this horse.

I was able if, and if there could be
multiple claims also for any particular

horse how do they decide who wins

Rupert Isaacson: the claim?

Victor Bahna: Well, what they would do
is they would put your effectively, they

put your names in a hat and they pull one
out and they say, okay, you're the winner

of this this particular claim to actually
use lottery balls and everyone gets

assigned a lottery ball and they shake
them up and they pull one out and whoever

is the lucky or unlucky person that
has that number ends up with the horse.

I say lucky or unlucky because if
the horse runs well, you want to

be the one that wins that horse.

And if the horse runs really poorly,
you're hoping that maybe someone

else will, will, will get that horse.

So, so that's, that's one of the
eight ways in which you can, you

can actually become an owner of
a racehorses by just you know.

You say eight ways.

It's one of the ways, sorry.

There's, there are multiple, there
are definitely multiple ways in

which you can acquire a racehorse.

This is probably the, the One of the
easier ways, it's one of the least risky

ways, but it also has limited upside,
because you've also seen that horse

likely perform on the racetrack at least
once or twice, or maybe multiple times,

so you kind of know what you're getting.

As long as the horse stays sound and
in this case, I was able to to, to get

my first racehorse and, and it kind
of took off from there in terms of

my, my level of interest, my ownership
and my passion, really, I mean, you,

you mentioned actualization, I think
that might've been the start of my

actualization because, you know, it
led to so many different things for me,

including getting to the point where I was
retiring some horses for various reasons

and decided that I wanted to, well,
this is actually where I learned quite

a bit about what happens to these horses
potentially after they're done racing.

And some of the outcomes are not
very good, especially for the horse.

And so this is where I decided that
I was going to make sure that, you

know, my horses, if I'm retiring
them, are not going to end up in a

situation where, you know, they're
going to be put at any kind of risk.

So I ended up Keeping a couple and
one of the horses that I, that I

did keep, he's he's currently an
18 year old thoroughbred and I ride

him on a pretty regular basis now.

So, I, I started getting
into riding lessons.

I started to work with him on
a, on a regular basis, learned

a lot of horsemanship in, in
the process of doing that.

And also built a relationship with him
to the point where At first it was a

situation where I wasn't really sure,
you know, what to do or what he wanted.

And now we're at a point where
I feel like we communicate with

each other very effectively.

Like I could read his, his signs
and he tends to read mine actually.

And it's, it's quite an
interesting relationship now

that I've, I've built with him.

So that's also part of the kind of that
whole process that I've been through

with regard to having that experience.

And it's, it's one of those things.

That I feel is hard to explain
unless you experience it yourself.

You know, you can, you can talk about
it and it's kind of like watching a show

versus, you know, or watching a travel
show versus visiting the travel site.

Having that experience and, and having
that relationship with with this horse

was, is, and continues to be a, a very
fulfilling and mostly positive experience.

Why

Rupert Isaacson: is the relationship
with the horse fulfilling?

Victor Bahna: It, he's become a
counterbalance to the stresses

in the world of tech for me.

The horse is bringing me back to nature.

It's bringing me back to a it's.

It's not a machine.

You know, some people think of our
horses, especially racehorses and

machines, and they're just going
to do the same thing every time.

He's definitely not a machine.

I didn't know that you can actually
have this kind of a relationship

with a horse where you can,
you can, you can really relate.

To him, I, I actually joke around
sometimes and I'm, I'm partially

serious though, in the sense that he's,
he's become very therapeutic for me

in, in managing some of my stresses.

Just being able to

spend time with him and just general
lessons that I've learned from him,

like with a horse, you don't, you
don't escalate, you deescalate when

you're in a situation where things
are getting a little bit testy.

When you're on, on.

When you're riding a horse.

It's best to try to relax and not be
nervous, because if you're nervous, he's

going to get nervous, and if he gets
nervous, then he's going to get on edge,

and if he's on edge, then he's going to
spook, and then if he spooks, you might

get thrown from the horse, and it's almost
counterintuitive, because your instincts

are to Grab the horse with your legs and
hold on and make sure you don't fall off.

But that's really the opposite
of what you want to be doing.

And so this is the kind of stuff
that I, that I learned in, in just

interacting with him, learning
to read his, his body language.

Like if he reacted to something, maybe
it's not because he's being fresh.

Maybe he's.

Not feeling well, or he's got an issue,
and, you know, we find out that, oh, he's

got an abscess, or he's got, he's got
a scratch somewhere, or, you know, some

kind of a cut somewhere or, you know,
just being sensitized to some of that,

and sometimes he is being a brat, and
being able to understand the differences

between when he's just being, you know,
a little playful, let's say, versus,

versus, you know, having, having some
issues, so a lot of this really was, you

know, was grounding for me in the sense
that you can't just bully a horse either.

You have to learn to work
with them as a teammate.

You have to cooperate with them.

You could try to, you know, in
the old days, I guess this is what

we did is we, we broke horses.

We still call it breaking, even
though we don't necessarily follow

the same process that we did,
you know, 40, 50, 60 years ago.

But breaking the will of the
horse is not how you're going

to build that relationship.

But understanding you've got
a thousand or 1200 pounds.

of animal that if you don't learn how to
work with them, it's just not going to

be a great experience for either of you.

So a lot of these things really kind
of came through in In my relationship

with this horse and, and a lot of those
things I'm able to carry through in

my job as well, you know, I, again,
like deescalating, you know, people,

especially with electronic communications
can be, you know, keyboard warriors,

as we say, and you know, they don't
necessarily mean everything that they're

saying, but if you can just kind of.

Just assume good intent with with what
people are trying to communicate and

then just rephrase it or just kind of,

Victor Bahna (2): you know,

Victor Bahna: tone things down a little
bit, you know, things tend to get done

a lot, a lot better than when you're
when you're, you know, combating it

or, or raising the bar, so to speak,
or taking it to the next level.

And, you know, I don't know if I
would have, you know, Gotten there.

If I didn't have some of these
experiences with did you used to be

Rupert Isaacson: a tech escalator?

Like, was there a time
when you were like, Oh, I

Victor Bahna: was a hothead.

I was total hothead.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

In what way?

Because I presume that, okay, we all,
you know, know what internet trolls

are like, and we all know that people
feel bolder behind the keyboard than

they would standing face to face on the
street, obviously say things they would

never say to anyone's face, but That's a
given, but I would have thought that if

you were going to pursue and then keep a
good career with, for example, Microsoft,

surely they would be looking for people
that were not like that because at the end

of the day those people cause conflict and
conflict is a draining of resources rather

than a, you know, Bringer of resources.

So when you were, say you were a
hothead, were you a hothead at Microsoft?

And if so, like, how did
you get away with that?

Or did they even encourage
that at the company?

And when did you find perhaps in the
short term that it worked for you or

did it always work against you and
you just sort of didn't know, in which

case, sort of, how didn't you get fired?

Like, talk, talk us
through that a little bit.

Victor Bahna: Sure.

I think in the early days of tech and
I was fortunate enough to be sort of

in those early days of of technology.

It was more about results.

It was, you need to deliver
results and it didn't really

matter how you got those results.

Rupert Isaacson: And what results
were you being expected to get?

Victor Bahna: In, in my case, it was
ensuring that we had enough product.

It was ensuring that we you know,
had the right, and again, back to the

package product days when I started at,
at Microsoft, it was all about ensuring

that the stores had product, but that we
didn't have too much product where it was.

Costing us a lot of money to,
to hold that product or to, or

to buy an expense, that product.

And so that was where the pressure
was, is you had to sort of hit

that sweet spot with regard to the
amount of inventory that you carried

Rupert Isaacson: that's when you
were on the, on the, on the product

line, right on the, that's what,

Victor Bahna: yeah, on the supply.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

And I can, I can see people.

Being aggressive about
getting a good deal.

But once you moved over to Microsoft
and you made the shift to tech itself,

did that hotheadedness stay with you?

And that escalatory thing and
how did that not negatively

impact your career basically?

Victor Bahna: I think it, I think I wasn't
100 percent hothead, so I should probably

qualify that but there were definitely
moments where I was, I was very pushy.

I would, I would require you know,
people to be working probably

hours that were not reasonable.

I pushed myself where
I was working probably,

I would, I would get to the, I would
leave my house probably around 7 a.

m.

most days.

Get to the office by 730 and I would
probably wouldn't come home till you

know, 8 9 o'clock A lot of nights and
then again we weren't necessarily on on

laptops at home then And that and and
because I was doing that that was my

expectation of other people as well But

Victor Bahna (2): you know,

Victor Bahna: I I I Kind of pushed
people into doing things that I look

back on today and think, you know, that
probably wasn't the right thing to do,

but at the time it was the corporate

Rupert Isaacson: culture of the time.

Yeah, it

Victor Bahna: was to a large
extent and and results mattered.

And so if we needed to work, well, 14, 15
hours a day, you know, over several weeks

or months, you know, that's what we did.

And I pushed my team
to to do that as well.

And, you know, sometimes.

You know, they wouldn't
necessarily agree with all that.

And, you know, that's when the
the terseness might might come

into play in terms of, you
know, we have to get this done.

This is our job.

This is what we're paid for.

And it wasn't necessarily very
friendly or encouraging or motivating.

And, and in time, you know, I did, as
I, as I aged, you know, I, I learned

some self introspection, but I think it
really kicked in a lot more when I started

working with with the retired resource.

I think that was when everything
really came together for me and,

and my tone and behavior probably
shifted much more towards the.

Let's, let's really work together.

Let's be much more positive.

Let's be more encouraging.

Let's be more motivating.

And that continues.

It's so it's always a working process.

I mean, but I have learned to to not
react as much from from where I was

back in my early days of my career.

You would send an email back then and.

You know, six hours, day later, you'd,
you'd be like, why did I send that email?

You almost regret it.

And so, you know, that, that restraint
wasn't there, you know, the, the

filters weren't there and, and you
know, maybe I would have gotten there.

Maybe I wouldn't have.

But I do think that the awareness that
I gained by working with the racehorse

was, was taking it to a new level for me.

And and I, and I genuinely appreciate
you know, how, however that came to be.

However, things ended up working out.

I, I genuinely appreciate the fact
that he's in my life and, and we've

built a really strong relationship.

Rupert Isaacson: Now you, you now own a
resource owning syndicate Royal Victory.

Thoroughbreds, is that correct?

Victor Bahna: That's correct.

Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: and you're also
you're not just owning racehorses

You're breeding them Tell us a little
bit about why you got into that and

then i'm going to ask you a couple
of I'm going to warn you in advance

slightly challenging questions about
the racing industry because I I know it.

From several different sides and I
know You know what's not good about

it as well as what's good about it.

So you're now

Working on, if you like,
perpetuating the industry.

What

prompts you to get together with other
groups of owners for the syndicate,

you all own a share and a horse, etc.

What's the motivation there?

What's the motivation for the breeding?

And what do you feel it's
bringing to the world?

And then I want to go a little
bit into your book and then let's

talk about the industry a bit.

Victor Bahna: Yeah, sure.

Rupert Isaacson: Sounds good.

Victor Bahna: I'll start with breeding.

So, as I mentioned a bit earlier,
horses, tend to run into issues at some

point in their career where they're
not going to be competitive anymore.

I had a, a mare who had won a
couple of races and she was not

going to be able to run anymore.

In fact, she, she came down
with a suspensory injury.

And

Rupert Isaacson: can you explain what
a suspensory injury is for those?

Yeah, it's,

Victor Bahna: it's, it's an injury.

Of the ligaments in the, in, in her case,
it was her right front foreleg and between

the knee and the the ankle or the fetlock.

And what happens is those,
those, those ligaments are very

tight when, when a racehorse.

And if they end up pulling or injuring
those ligaments, they end up becoming

less it affects their ability to to
run quite frankly, because you know,

that that tautness isn't there anymore.

It's it's kind of like think
of your own leg in that sense.

There are some bones that
connect into those ligaments.

And one of those bones and I think
it's called the sesamoid, is what

this particular mare had fractured.

After a race that she had been in,
and my 1st reaction was, Oh, no,

because you hear about, you know,
horses injuring legs and they get

they get euthanized on the racetrack.

And that was my 1st fear was, Oh, my gosh,
you know, minus situation where we're

going to have to put this horse down.

And so I, I.

Went right back to the barn after,
after that race and spoke with the

veterinarian and the veterinarian said
that you know, she's got an injury.

It's most likely a career ending injury.

And my first question was, is she
Is she going to be okay, though?

You know, are we going
to have to put her down?

And he reassured me, though,
that we wouldn't have to do that.

In fact, in this case, it wouldn't
even require surgery, but she

would need at least a year off.

And we would have to nurse it
back so that, you know, she

gained, regained her health.

Actually, I don't, actually, I don't
remember if there was surgery or not.

I don't think there was.

Suspensory,

Rupert Isaacson: it's just,
basically, nine months of

rest is usually the, the cure.

Yeah.

Victor Bahna: Yeah.

I don't, yeah, I don't think there
was any any surgery for this.

Anyway, she so I've got this horse
that is never going to race again.

And what do I do with this horse?

And, and I thought, well, you know, let
me, let me see if I can breed the horse.

She had good pedigree and she had good
confirmation which is, which is how

they're built, it's bone structure.

And I thought she would maybe
make a potentially good broodmare.

So that's really how I got started
in the breeding business is I thought

it would be good to keep her to give
her a home and to see if she can

produce some, some babies that would
eventually make it to the racetrack.

And that's, that's, I, I've done
that with a couple of mares.

I've got, I've got two mares
today that were former racehorses

of mine that I'm breeding.

One is On the East coast, one
of them on the West coast.

And it's been, it's been a good experience
in the sense of learning sort of the

whole life cycle of of, of the racing
process from researching stallions to

paying for stud fees, to pulling the baby,
to watching them grow up, it's getting

them to the racetrack and then even, you
know, past that in terms of retirement,

The partnership came about because
I thought it would be, I, I.

Get very excited.

I don't think there's many circumstances
as, as an older adult now, in

which I get to act like a child.

And so one of the experiences is
when you're at the racetrack and

you're, you're, you're watching
your racehorse run, you can, you

can act like a bit of a child.

You know, you could scream
at the top of your lungs.

You can, you could feel that.

That thrill and excitement.

When, when they're coming down the
lane, you know, and they're, they've

got a chance of winning that race.

You could also feel sort of the,
sort of the, the, the crushing

weight of defeat when when they lose
and, and the utter disappointment

that comes with with it's going to

Rupert Isaacson: happen more
often, you know, odds are, yeah.

Victor Bahna: Odds are
it's not going to happen.

Yeah, exactly.

You're going to, you're going to lose
a lot more than you're going to win.

And so, I, the rollercoaster of emotions
that you go through is just, it's

just one of those unique experiences.

And, and it's just, I, in my,
in my experiences, it's just not

something that you could find in,
in, in a lot of different areas.

I mean, you can, you can invest your money
in, in the stock market, but you're not

going to be screaming at a stock ticker.

Maybe you are, but you know, most,
most people aren't going to be

screaming at a stock ticker like
they are, you know, a horse race.

You can go to sporting events and,
you know, watch football or, or

hockey or something like that.

And you can get into the,
into the game itself.

But nothing in my opinion really kind
of matches the, the sense of excitement.

And, and knowing is that you're, you're
a you're a participant in the sport.

You're not just a spectator.

I think really.

Raises the bar, so to speak.

And so I wanted to share that with
some of my some of my colleagues and

friends and give them the opportunity
to do the same, and they might not

necessarily have done the research or
understand, you know, what it's like,

you know, how to get into the game.

So providing them a really easy entrance
ramp with regard to participating letting

them have that experience as well.

And, you know, if they, if they feel that
same level of excitement, then great.

You know, they can, they can
continue to you know, to.

To purchase shares in, in in horses.

And if they don't, that's,
that's okay as well.

They can, they can always step out.

There's not a, a long, you know,
everlasting commitment that they have.

And, and to, to the large extent,
you know, the folks that I've, I've

brought into the partnership have,
have been have been pretty optimistic.

I think, I think they've, they've
enjoyed the experience that they've had.

And I generally do everything at cost.

I'm not trying to make
money off of a partnership.

So whatever the actual charges that
I see, I just pass them on to you

know, to the different partners so
that they're not feeling like they're

getting, you know, having to pay
a premium or anything like that.

For me, it's just being able to
share the experience and giving

them that opportunity as opposed
to, you know, me trying to make

a dollar or two off of them.

We let the performance on
the racetrack decide if we're

going to make money or not.

And so it also makes, makes it more.

Of me having a vested interest in
the success of the horses in which

they're owning because I'm also going
to own a, you know, a good percentage

of each of those horses as well.

Rupert Isaacson: So it's a passion thing.

Victor Bahna: It's
definitely a passion thing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

And then let's talk a little bit more
about passion and then let's go back

to, to the thoroughbred industry.

So you've now written a book and you've
written a book about A darker side of

the industry and also writing a book
is a passionate process and you've self

published it and that's not easy I've self
published a book and I I know a little

bit about what goes into that Tell me,
you know, why did you decide to do that?

How did you make it work?

There'll be a lot of listeners
there who are flirting with the

idea of self publishing and each
year the landscape on that, the

geography on that, changes a bit.

You know, the last time I did it was,
I think, back in 2015 or 14 or so.

And I know things have changed since then.

So talk to us about your experience.

Why did you decide to do it?

How did you as a non writer get to a point
where you could write a book, which is,

is, it's picked up some very good reviews.

And why did you choose the particular
subject matter, the sort of darker side

of the racing industry and thriller you
know, talk, talk, talk us through the

process, conception, reasons, publishing,
how, how you found Figure that why did you

publish the way you published and so on

Victor Bahna: I was sitting on a beach
one day and It was chatting with my wife

And I was thinking about ways in which
I can, what, what would be like the next

kind of big project I would want to do.

And it just was one of those
lightbulb moments where we were just

kind of batting around a few ideas.

And, and I've been doing a fair amount
of business writing at the time.

And thought to myself, you know what,
I think maybe I should write a book.

And it was literally just this lightbulb
moment where, I had not honestly really

considered or thought about it, you
know, up to that point, it was, it

was literally just kind of hit me.

And I was thinking, okay, well, if I
write a book, what would it be about?

Well, of course, it would have
to be about horses because that's

where I'm spending, you know,
quite a bit of my time and energy.

And so that, that really
was the, the starting point.

But what I, what it was, was bothering me.

At that time, and this was probably
2016, maybe 2017, but what was really

bugging me at that time was the, you
mentioned the darker side, the excitement

in the racing and the attention is all
given to the horses that are racing.

But there's a lot of horses
that don't race anymore.

And back then there were a lot of
those horses that were, were being

shuttled you know, in crowded vans up
to from the U S at least up to Mexico

or down to Mexico or up to Canada.

And they were going to the slaughterhouse.

And I, and it really bothered me that, you
know, you can have, and I read the story

of Ferdinand, I'm not sure how familiar
you are with Ferdinand, but he was a

Kentucky Derby winner back in the 80s.

I'm not

Rupert Isaacson: familiar.

No, tell us.

Victor Bahna: Yeah.

Yeah.

Ferdinand won the Kentucky
Derby back in the 1980s.

I don't know exactly which year it was.

And he was sold as a
stallion to a group in Japan.

Yeah.

This for us.

One of the most prestigious race in
the US he was very well regarded,

you know, would, would have a very,
you'd expect a very prosperous

and, and successful stud career.

Highest bidder was in Japan
at the time, he ended up going

to Stallion Farm in Japan.

After he retired from racing.

Apparently his prodigy was not very
successful in, in, in large part.

And he got sold to another farm in Japan.

He ended up passing through
a couple of different places.

Ended up, actually he ended up
in a slaughterhouse, actually.

And was, was, you know.

That was his end and after
I don't know how old he was.

I don't think he was that old
probably somewhere between maybe he

was like 12 or 15 or something Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: not old.

Yeah midlife.

No,

Victor Bahna: no, definitely not old.

And it was basically he was
unsuccessful He passed through,

you know multiple hands.

And the last Group that got them decided
that it was going to be best to, you

know, send them to a slaughterhouse
because they can get money for the

pound for him, which is just amazing.

So I thought to myself, you know,
how does a horse like that, who wins

the most prestigious race in the U.

S.

end up in a slaughterhouse and how
can any horse that you may spend.

You know, a couple hundred thousand
dollars on or even more at some

point in their career, you know,
find themselves on a trailer heading

to heading to a slaughterhouse and
that really, really disturbed me.

So, I thought to myself that would
actually be a good story to, to write

about and maybe expose a little bit
more of what's going on, but doing

it in a way that's not preaching.

That's not trying to shame
anybody, but more just.

In the, in the, in the form of a
narration and of a, of an interesting

story I don't think people read
novels to be scolded or to be

Victor Bahna (2): you know,

Victor Bahna: given a sermon, but
I think, I think they're, they're

reading novels because they want
to be entertained and they want

to they want to read a good story.

And so that that's what I ended
up doing was, was, you know,

capturing that scenario with this
horse whose name is Heliacal Star.

And sort of working through those
progressions of him being a a

fancy yearling that gets sold for
quite a bit of money at a, at an

auction has a, has a racing career.

But at some point that career ends
and, you know, he finds himself in a.

In a in a van going,
going in the wrong way.

And I don't want to give too much away
of the story itself, but, but that,

that really became the arc of the story.

And then the, at first I was thinking
I would write it from the horse's

point of view, but after after a couple
of starts on that, realize that that

probably wasn't going to make much sense.

So developed a few characters and.

Was able to weave several subplots
that I find are actually pretty

interesting from a, from a reader's
point of view that cover different

areas of, of the racing business.

And when I was doing some, some research
on writing itself, you know, the, the,

for one of the first lessons that that
I picked up on was, You should write

what you know don't, don't, you know,
start out with, you know, a topic that

you're familiar with and write what
you know, and, and, and write the way

you want to tell the story, you know,
don't necessarily let other people

or or styles, you know, necessarily
change or alter what you want to say.

And so that's what I, that's
what I ended up doing.

I probably took the really
long road to doing this.

Having not having any experience in
publishing or writing a novel and

I say the long road because I would
write the first version of this and

I would get to the, I finally got to
the very ending of the story and I

thought to myself, okay, this is great.

You know, this looks good.

This is the, you know, it's
going to be the right length

and I'd start rereading it.

And I was thinking to
myself, this is awful.

This is terrible.

And so I ended up going through multiple.

Multiple iterations and started adding
more depth with each iteration made,

made things, you know, a lot more
interesting from a reader perspective,

you know, cut out things that just
weren't moving the story forward added

things that could move the story forward
and after six years of doing this.

They ended up finally getting to the point
where I thought it had a readable version

of the book and it actually all tied
together and and that's when I started

to, you know, solicit some feedback from
from a couple of folks close folks that I

know that I, I know are readers and, and
then after they gave me their feedback and

I made another rewrite of the book then
I, then I started to shop for editors.

Rupert Isaacson: Tell us quickly the plot
and Then I want you to talk about the

editing process because I think a lot
of people when they want to write a book

they don't realize that the success of
the book is really predicated upon the

editor or editors and that this has to
be a sort of creative and happy marriage

Between author and editors, but without
a good editor, there is no book and

without the good editor, there is no film.

It's, it's, it's, call it killing babies
but it's, it's a difficult process.

So what's the plot of the book and how did
the editors, how did you find the editors?

How did the editors help you craft
the book to its readable form?

What it costs you to find,
to, to employ those editors?

And then how did you move
it through to publishing?

Mm-Hmm,

.
Victor Bahna: So about the book
itself, it's the namesake iCal star.

He is a, a race horse.

Why

Rupert Isaacson: iCal, by the way?

Victor Bahna: I actually had a
horse that was called iCal Rising.

Okay.

That I raced in in Maryland.

And I, I thought the name was unique
enough where it was gonna catch your eye.

It's, it's not boring in terms of, and
it, and it's something that most people

don't necessarily know and therefore.

I thought it would be a just something
that would, would catch someone's eye.

Rupert Isaacson: It means relating
to or near to the sun, right?

Heliacal.

Yeah, it has to be the, yeah,

Victor Bahna: the star Sirius and
it, it being the first time it rises

before the solstice, I believe.

And I, and I knew that because
of Palaeocal Rising, which

was, which was effectively, you
know, named after that event.

And it actually goes
back to to ancient Egypt.

And so, yeah, I just, I just kind of
liked the name and thought it was catchy

and and just slightly altered it for the
book because I didn't Want to use a name

that had already been used in racing.

So I also checked to see if
anyone actually named a horse, a

lyrical star with the jockey club.

And there were none, none out there.

So I was like, okay, I can,
I can go with this book.

No one's gonna.

Chase me down for copyright
infringes or anything like that.

So yeah, he's a racehorse.

And our main character
Who is a former bookie?

with organized crime He ends up
taking a liking to this horse after

he places a hunch bet on with him in
a race at at Belmont Park one day.

And so he gains this affinity for,
for this racehorse because of the

results of, of that particular race
in which in which he made a wager.

And so he's also someone that's been at
the racetrack, you know, throughout his,

his childhood and was brought there by
his by his dad who has since been Deceased

and he's feeling nostalgic one day.

He goes to the racetrack
and and kind of relives.

I think it's on his dad's birthday.

He relives sort of the experience
that he had when he was younger.

When he would go to the racetrack
with his, with his dad, he gets on

a, a tram ride that takes you through
the backstretch of Belmont Park.

And then when he's on the tram ride,
he hears a call out to this horse,

Heliacal Star, who happens to be in
a, in a barn that they're passing.

And on a whim, he decides that he's
going to go take a look at this

horse and say hello to him up close.

And it's just one of those sort
of unexplainable, hey, I just

want to do this kind of thing.

And as he approaches the shed row
where the horse is, he stops just

short of the shed row because he hears
a conversation that's taking place.

And it's a conversation that
involves this particular racehorse.

And he recognizes one of the voices.

It actually paralyzes him because he
recognizes his voice as one of his

cohorts from his organized crime days.

His, his relationship with the organized
crime family ended very badly for him.

And this is the last group of
people he ever wants to deal with

or, or interact with ever again.

But the conversation is so disturbing to
him that He now faces a bit of a moral

dilemma in that does he actually say
something and report what he's hearing

to the authorities, which will likely
be something that they find out about,

and he would have to, he would have to
confront his past which is something

that he feels he's, he's moved past, you
know, long ago, or does he just pretend

that he never heard anything kind of
go on with his, with his life as it is?

And of course.

He decides, you know, to do the right
thing, you know, from a moral perspective,

and the story, you know, picks up from
there in terms of the the danger that

he ends up winding himself or putting
himself in as a result of of facing

these, these mobsters once again.

He does meet a trainer in, in the process.

Somewhat happens chance running into
this trainer and she and he develop a

relationship as well, and she teaches
him quite a bit about what happens

on the backside of the racetrack.

Cause he, he had always been in on the
handicapping gambler, spectator side of

things, and she kind of brings in a little
bit inside the, the, the world of racing

from a, from an insider perspective.

So they, they end up.

Bonding over you know, they, they
both love horses, but they come at it

from a slightly different perspective.

And they form a relationship
in the process as well.

And then you get to see what
happens to this racehorse.

It's, you know, political star
himself as he kind of goes through

this progressions, as I mentioned.

In his career,

Rupert Isaacson: we don't want to give
away the, plot too much, but it's a

thriller, but the obvious question here
is how much is organized crime involved.

Interesting.

Victor Bahna: Honestly, I don't
know the answer to that question.

I don't think it's as much as
it used to be, but I wouldn't

say it's, it's 0 percent either.

It's, it's it's, it's hard to tell.

I think, I think with the.

With the internet these days
there's more access to gambling.

It's, it's interesting in the U
S when I was, when I was younger

gambling was quite the taboo.

As the government started to figure
out that they could earn a lot of money

through things like lotteries and stuff
like that, it became a little bit more.

Acceptable.

And nowadays, it's everywhere, it's, it's,
it's, it's amazing in just, you know, in

a matter of a couple of decades, it went
from being this, this horrible addiction,

and it's, and it could be a terrible
addiction, a lot of people do suffer

from, from, from gambling addiction,
to a very accepted vice, let's call it,

you know, with gambling on everything,
you know, any sporting event in the U.

S.

is going to have it.

gambling and easy access to it as
well, you know, through the internet

or, you know, casinos are everywhere.

I, I think that fixing of games and
fixing of, of races to say that it doesn't

exist at all would probably be naive.

But I, I, I honestly couldn't, couldn't
give you an answer because I, I, well,

Rupert Isaacson: it's an interesting
thing because in the UK growing up So

full disclosure, you know, thoroughbred
industry was all around me growing up.

And I'll go into that in a moment.

But in the UK, of course,
Betting is not a taboo.

It's an accepted thing.

There's betting shops, you
know, on every high street, you

know, several chains of them.

And it's considered kind of
almost like a fun family activity.

You put a, you know, we
call it having a flutter.

And everyone puts something
on the Grand National.

Everyone puts something on
the FA Cup final in football.

Everyone will put something on.

Is it going to be a white
Christmas this year?

You know, they'll, they'll, you know,
Different shops will put on different

odds and it's all very above the board and
controlled by the government and taxed.

And as you know, in in the racing
industry, we have something called the

tote, which is basically, you know,
a government controlled betting thing

where their rationale is a little
bit like prostitution in Amsterdam.

So look, it's going to go on.

So we might as well control it.

And, you know, Benefit from it and
build roads out of it, which is, you

know, relatively enlightened, but the
there's also, as we know, there's,

there's a lot of unofficial betting and
that unofficial betting tends to have

its connections to the organized crime.

And it was interesting to me
growing up because, I don't know

if you're aware of this in the UK.

You probably are because it exists
on the east coast of the US as well.

We have what are called hunt racers,
which are all point to points,

which are amateur racers, but
they usually run on race tracks.

And they look to the outside
eyes, just like a regular racer,

jump racers, steeplechasers.

But they're run by hunts, packs of
hounds as fundraising days, and they

can raise a lot of money this way.

And so there's a whole industry of sort
of whole amateur industry, but it's

basically professionalized a lot of
money changes hands, but not as much

as, you know, the, the top industry.

And of course a lot of, there's a
lot of home breeding for these point

to point race horses, which are
thoroughbreds, but also horses that

have sort of trickled down through.

Maybe not done Fantastically on the
professional track might do very

well on the point to point track.

So Some horses from the racetrack find
themselves a actually sort of second

career point to pointing others are bred
for it Definitely there was a kind of a

rural mafia around this growing up and
there were people you just didn't cross,

you know, that there were people that
were around and it was like in the village

pubs and it's not, you know, people think
about organized crime as you know, this.

Urban thing and it's chaps in cheap
Italian suits wasting each other, you

know and it wasn't like that at all, but
it was violent and You were aware that

there was this edge and places you did
not go but of course people would lay

money with these people because as you
said people who were either gambling

addicts or Looking to make a faster
buck or maybe these bookies would give

them longer odds, you know um Chance for
making more money Interestingly, I know

one who went on actually to become quite
a philanthropist later on in his life.

But it, it, and a lot of these, these
unofficial bookies were kind of math

geniuses, oddly enough, who, but they
could get financed, they could get

backing from sort of local mafia people.

It was it was what it was so but I think
that that Side of things the racing is

quite familiar with people because any
anywhere there's gambling anywhere with

money You're going to see this what of
course is tragic is that you know, the

horses are innocents in this and they
have no Yeah, so if someone's going to

break the leg of a horse for insurance
reasons or something like that, that's

yeah Yeah, and I think as you say that
used to go on more than it perhaps

does now But it was a thing growing up

Victor Bahna: I agree.

Yeah, I do think there was, there was,
it was much more prevalent and maybe a

little bit more obvious or less subtle
back you know, back in the seventies or

the eighties, I think that I think you're
right whenever you've got money involved,

whenever you have gambling involved,
whenever you've got high stakes involved

there's the propensity for cheating and
and you know, you could call it fixing.

You can call it.

The way in which you cheat then is, is.

Okay, you can, and there are various
ways, I think, in which you can,

you can alter maybe the outcome of a
race you might not be able to make it

exact, but you can, you can pay off the
participants, like you can pay off the

referees in a, in a in a sporting event,
not to make certain calls or to make

certain calls, you can, you can pay off.

You know, a rider to to race
harder, not to race hard.

Usually it's easier to get them
not to race harder than it is to

race hard because, you know, it's
easier to lose than it is to win.

And so if you can find a race with,
let's say, 8 horses and you've got.

You know, seven of the riders all running
to lose that you're going to figure out

who's gonna who's going to win that race.

So that, that could be
one way of doing it.

You know, another way would be to get
into medications and again, back in the,

Victor Bahna (2): you know,

Victor Bahna: 70s or 80s, maybe
the scrutiny and the number of

drug tests that were being done
are, are, you know, miniscule

compared to what we're doing today.

I mean, they're a lot more thorough
in terms of the urine test and making

sure, you know, we're checking all
of their, their blood samples and so

forth after a raise, but there are
still, there are still loopholes.

And if somebody wants to, you know,
really bend the rules, you know, they

could probably do something that goes
You know, that goes under the under

the radar, so to speak, again, I don't
think it's done nearly as much as it

would have been in the past because
you have a lot more activism today.

You have a lot more awareness
of some of these things.

There's a lot more testing.

There's more regulations, but I, again,
I would say it's naive to think that, you

know, there aren't some out there that
are trying to bend or break the rules to

you know, make things work in their favor.

My, my experience with People on
the backstretch has been I would

just call overwhelmingly positive.

And I think, I think there's some
self policing that's being done.

I also think there's a little bit of
the, we don't want to rat on our friends.

Kind of mentality as well that happens.

But I think the overwhelming number of
people are honest on the backstretch.

I think they do deeply
care about the racehorses.

It is the minority and the few
bad actors that tend to give the

industry at, at large, sort of a bad.

Reputation at times.

And I think it's important if we can keep
a level playing field for, for all of

the participants, you know, if you feel
like you're up against a person that is

suspicious or has been under, you know,
under suspicion and their horse tends

to run a lot better than you think it
should, you know, you're going to start

asking yourself the question, you know,
is the, is the playing field really

level or, you know, do I have to might
be bending or cheating on the rules.

So it's, it's a, it's a hard, it's
a hard one though, because you just,

You just don't know and you just hope
that people are, for the most part,

going to, going to do the right thing.

I know the people that I associate with.

I see every vet bill.

I get, I go down to the backstretch.

I watch them train.

I speak regularly with with, with the
people that I entrust with my horses.

And and I'm, I'm very confident that
they are They're doing the right thing.

If there's an issue with the horse,
they'll immediately call me and, and

we'll back off, we're not gonna, we're
not gonna push, we're not gonna, we're

not going to do things that are unnatural.

And you know, if, if a horse can't
compete, we're going to try to find

a level where they can compete as
opposed to, Hey, let's jack up the

source on, you know, some medication
that will make him, You know, a

better resource than he should be.

So, but again, a lot of it depends
on who you're working with.

A lot of it depends upon, you know, what,
what kind of exposure you're having.

And you got to keep your eyes
open, in my opinion, and associate

yourself with the good people.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

I mean, so that's one side of it for sure.

The other, of course, difficult side,
and this is a side, again, that's well

known to me is, as you say, what happens
to the horses after their careers, but.

So, it's a use them up, spit them out
thing, meaning that, you know, millions

and millions of racehorses get bred
every year over the, across the world.

And, obviously, there's always
more losers than winners.

So, horses that, you know, are sold
for a lot of money as yearlings or

two year olds, as you say, often, you
know, by the age of five, are done.

And, They've got 25 years of life
ahead of them, and they might come

out of that two years or five years
that they're running with injuries

almost, almost inevitably they will.

Partly because they're too young
to actually bear weight when

they're, and, and to bear impact.

Hard impact anyway.

You know, in the riding horse world,
not the racehorse world, you never

start a horse before three or four.

And you work them very, very gently,
and you build the muscles, and

you build the top line muscles.

I mean, ideally you should,
there are people who don't,

but let's say that's the ideal.

And in the racing industry, you know,
they're racing at 18 months to two

years old and, you know, sustaining
lifetime, you know, impact injuries,

which are then going to affect them.

Now, all of that said, the thoroughbred
is very tough, very resilient animal

coming out of, you know, the desert
steps coming out of Central Asia.

So, and they love to run but there's
no question they do it too early.

And there's no question that the bones and
the cartilage are impacted in ways that

sometimes render the horses unrideable.

And then, of course, the other
problem is that if you take an

adrenaline fueled animal that

works off its amygdala, its fight flight
freeze response, and you jack that up to

the point where it's just always going
to run, so its first response is to run,

then that makes it a very difficult animal
to put with the average rider because

it's too fiery, it's too dangerous.

Now, all of that said, Where I grew up in
Leicestershire in the UK, all we did was

take thoroughbreds off the track and rehab
them into various types of sport horse.

So we would turn them into fox hunting
horses, we would turn them into

showjumpers, we would turn them into
eventers, and we would we would go

up to it's what we did if what people
did when they didn't have much money

is you'd go to Doncaster sales or one
of the big organized auctions that

happen at the end of the steeplechase,
particularly the jump racing.

Yeah.

And you see what you could pick up cheap
that looked like it might be sound and you

take a punt on it and you'd retrain them.

And for the most part, I'd say
all of those horses went on to.

Good homes and good ends and the horses
that I had and I kept were the ones we

couldn't sell because they were too nuts.

But I still made them work and hunted
them and team chased them and invented

them and stuff and retired them and
they died, you know, in their thirties.

But it's not always
that good of an outcome.

However I now work very much in
the therapeutic riding field.

And many people say that
thoroughbreds are wrong for this.

And we've just, we've disproved that.

So we work primarily with autism.

We work primarily with mental health.

And.

One of our best programs is a a non
profit called Square Peg Foundation in

Half Moon Bay, California, outside of
San Francisco, which basically, more

or less exclusively takes thoroughbreds
off the track from the Thoroughbred

Aftercare Alliance, and has turned them
into absolutely fantastic therapy horses

now has two campuses in California.

And we have a couple of
programs in Ireland, too.

One in Kilkloon in just outside
Dublin, near the Coolmore

Stud, which is a famous stud.

And another down in a place called
the Skinnet in County Limerick.

And again, we've managed to rehab, retrain
many horses off the track for this job.

And they, their sensitivity is

very well matched.

We find actually with the acute
sensitivity, the sensory sensitivity

of people on the spectrum.

And now we've moved into working.

Very much with adults
with trauma with the U.

S.

Air Force, with the Bundeswehr, which is
the German Army I live in Germany now,

and the Dutch Defense Force, and so on.

Again, we find thoroughbreds are
very, very good at this work, but

what is lacking at this point?

It seems, is any really

coherently, let's say, credible
effort from the racing industry as

a whole to really back the work that
all the pioneers are doing privately

to mop up the dregs of the industry?

Dirty work and the mess and the
waste of the industry itself.

We also have a great place
in Japan, by the way.

Just outside Tokyo, which
again uses mostly horses

called it's called Equitopia.

It's worth looking up and the, the
husband of the vet who runs it is actually

a very prominent trainer in Japan.

So that's Square peg foundation
in California Stewart's care

and in outside Dublin and St.

Joseph's Foundation in Charleville County
Court, but their farm is actually over

the border in Limerick, and Equitopia
in Japan, all using thoroughbreds.

I know there's more out there,
these are just the ones that

we happen to be involved with.

But what we see is that, although
I think organizations Aftercare

Alliance get behind them and give
grants to these organizations, the

thoroughbred industry, with all its
money And it has a lot of money.

Does not.

So I'm calling bullshit on the desire from
the industry to really do the right thing.

Because I think we'd see a slightly
different picture if that were true.

I think they do rely upon good
hearted individuals and non profits

to come in and pick up the pieces.

But really, the Jockey
Club has so much money.

It could be seen to look after
the animals that it purports

to be so passionate about.

Much, much more from
sort of birth to death.

Yet it does not.

Why doesn't it?

How might it?

And how can we be a force
for change with that?

Victor Bahna: Yeah.

See, you, you covered a lot of
ground and it's important stuff.

So I'll give you my, my perspective
on, on this because I think to

a large extent, my, my thought
process is not very different than,

than what you just referenced.

It's.

As I mentioned earlier, it was, it was

Rupert Isaacson: just, don't get me wrong.

I'm not anti racing and I know
that the horses, I'm not, yeah,

Victor Bahna: I'm very much in,

Rupert Isaacson: we just need
to look after the animals,

Victor Bahna: but, but, but one of my
inspirations for writing this book was

to bring more attention to the, the
very topic that you just referenced.

And I will say that the racing industry,
in my opinion, this is my opinion.

Has a hard time getting
out of its own way.

Sometimes.

I mean, there's a, there's a new
law that was passed or regulatory

body that was formed in the U.

S., you know, called the Horse
Racing Integrity and Safety Act.

And the entire reason for having
the government get involved in

regulating the horse business or the
racing business very specifically

is because the racing business
couldn't figure this out on their own.

It's like, guys, wake up and look,
look, what's going on around you.

And quite frankly, the racing business is.

It's competing with other sports in the U.

S.

and it's losing that fight because,
you know, people are watching

and gambling on football, U.

S.

football.

They're, they're going to the
casinos that are everywhere now.

It's hard.

for a handicapper to predict
who's going to win a horse race.

It's, it's hard to understand
all of the different exotic

wagers that you have to make.

Exact the boxes and triples and
super effectors and daily doubles

and pick threes and so forth.

It's, you gotta kind of know that stuff.

You're not just going to walk in
and You know, be able to just pick

them out of a hat necessarily.

But if you're a football fan or a
baseball fan or a hockey fan, and you're

following different teams, making a bet
on a, on a, on a game is very easy to do.

You don't have to put a lot of
thinking or thought into it.

You just do it more intuitively.

So that competition is there.

And I'm bringing this
up because it's just.

The horse business itself, the
racing business itself has got to

figure out how they're going to
stay competitive in the marketplace.

And one of the areas that they can
do a lot of good for themselves.

Would be to be much more active in
promoting the aftercare of these

horses and being much more active
in Showing that hey, we're not just

about the race itself We're about the
whole life cycle of the racehorse.

And yes, you've got a hot blood.

You've you've got a a very high strung
animal who is going to be very flighty

but the stories that you're referencing
and this the work that you're doing You

And being able to get that much more
publicized and saying, Hey, you know what,

you might see a, a, a very athletic high
strung, fast athlete on the racetrack,

but that same athlete is going to be
very kind and very gentle once they're

retrained and they're going to have such
a value to the community after, you know,

after they're done with their careers.

And we have to get that
word out a lot more.

And, and yes, you know, grassroots
and private organizations

are certainly helping.

And social media is certainly helping.

And we are seeing a trickle, I'll call
it, from, from the racing business.

Like we're donating certain, a
few dollars, you know, per start

to aftercare foundations that are
sponsored by the various racetracks.

And they're doing a little bit more
marketing and promotion about some of the

some of the aftercare that they're doing
it's a start, but we've got to do a lot

more in the space and the and just think
of the exposure that the business would

get if they could demonstrate that, yeah,
once the horses are over, they're being

taken care of because we're making sure
that you know, that the owners that we're

holding the owners responsible for what
happens to those horses and, and, and

to an extent they are if, you know, If
a horse, you know, if there's a tattoo,

which has now been replaced with digital
chips, you know, if that horse ends

up in an agricultural auction and goes
into a, a kill pen with, you know, being

purchased by a kill buyer, and that gets
discovered, the owner of record, the last

owner of record with that horse and the
last trainer of record of that horse has

to have to pay a pretty hefty fine and
they get called out by the jockey club.

I think it's the jockey club.

, so there is some accountability, but I
think that the racing business can do

a lot more in terms of just promoting
the opportunities and creating more

awareness and, and being more active and
supporting that because you're right.

There's a ton of money.

If you ever go to a Keeneland auction.

I have worked at the Keeneland auctions.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

In one of my first jobs under the
table illegally in the USA training

horses, I've shown thoroughbreds in
the auctioneers ring at Keeneland.

And it's interesting.

I mean, it's a hard
business run by hard people.

There's not much humanity in
the treatment of the people,

in the treatment of the horses.

It, I mean, The horses are well looked
after to the degree that they're

well fed and cleaned and cared for.

But

Victor Bahna: I bet the horses are
probably better cared for than the people.

Well,

Rupert Isaacson: indeed, indeed.

And for all we English and Irish
boys that were there under the

table taking the hard knocks.

You know, for any one of us,
there were 10 Mexicans who were,

you know, taking it harder.

So It was exploitative at the same time
it provided us with many opportunities

and for me as a, as a, you sort of
accepted that exploitation to some

degree and said, Okay, well, look,
you know, I'm, I'm living on my wits

here in the USA without a work permit.

I could go home, you know,
but here's an opportunity.

So I will take it.

I've got some horse knowledge,
dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.

And then you get, you know, pretty heftily
shoved around in a rather inhuman way.

But at the same time, you kind
of, you accepted the adventure.

You were a young man, you know, you could.

Sort of handle it, but you weren't
going to stay there forever.

But nonetheless, I think it was sort of
indicative of the industry as a whole.

That there was a,

almost a sort of desire power play in
that way, not confined to that industry.

Of course, you find it in many things, but
nonetheless, very, very prevalent there.

So I think that, again, that's
why I questioned the sincerity.

of the Jockey Club or the rest of it.

Victor Bahna: I think it
almost doesn't matter anymore.

I think it's going to become existential
for this business to recognize the

necessity for them to be more active
in the aftercare of Thoroughbreds.

And I think they're starting to get it.

But I, I think there are two major
inhibitors that are hard to ignore.

The first one is the one I mentioned
before is that the racing business seems

to not be able to get out of its own way.

They can't, it seems like you
can't make a decision without,

they just can't make decisions.

And you would think that, that this
horse racing and safety act integrity

and safety act would have woken them
up to the fact that Hey, maybe we

should get our act together and, you
know, make the need for government

regulation obsolete because we can
demonstrate that we're doing it ourselves.

But what are they doing instead?

They're fighting the, they're
fighting the the, the regulatory

effort that's going on.

Yeah.

They're trying to say it's
illegal and you can't do this.

And so instead of, you know, understanding
the whole reason behind it, you

know, they're, they're arguing it.

And, you know, I, I can, I can see
a lot of flaws in how it's being run

and managed, but that's not the point.

Point is you can get your shit
together and now you're, you're,

you're where you are because
you created this mess yourself.

So I think that's the first problem is,
and I don't know where that's going.

I really don't.

That was

Rupert Isaacson: my question.

Is racing going to survive?

Victor Bahna: I don't know.

I think, I think it will survive.

But I think it's going to
have to change, I think.

Rupert Isaacson: Will it shrink?

What will it look like?

It will shrink,

Victor Bahna: yeah.

I think it will shrink.

I think, I think you're seeing, I think
California right now is is struggling.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

Victor Bahna: And it's one of the
bigger racing venues in the US.

Part of it is geographic because
you're so far away from where

all the other racetracks are.

And as you know, you know, shipping
a horse from east coast to west

coast or vice versa is not,

Is, is a an expensive venture.

So, you're kind of on an island to some
extent when you're, when you're out west.

But part of it is just that the
competition in the handle is, is reducing.

And a lot of the players that were big
horse fans, racing fans, People that

would go to the racetracks, quite frankly,
are getting old and they're dying off

and the next generation is not coming
up with the same enthusiasm for racing

that the previous generations have had.

So yeah, I do think there's some,
I do think there's some awakening

that's going to happen and I think
that the industry will eventually

figure it out, but it's going to
probably take some time before they do.

Rupert Isaacson: Do you think it's
going to go back to being what it was

originally, which is a sport of gentlemen?

And and gentle people.

What I mean by that is for those
listeners that don't know the history

of the thoroughbred horse they go
back to a handful of stallions that

were brought into England in the late
17th century by a handful of people

who acquired horses from the Central
Asian step through the Ottoman Empire.

And to some degree from the Arabian
world, also through the Ottoman

Empire because of the wars that were
going on between the Ottoman Empire

and Central Europe at that time.

A good example would be the
Bayali Turk, which was, you know,

a famous foundation stallion.

Who was acquired by a man called Biley,
who was an Anglo Irish cavalry officer

who found himself at the siege of
Vienna in 1680, where the Ottoman Empire

pushed into central Europe and was busy
about to kind of swallow it all up.

The rest of Europe kind of went, Oh,
shit, you know, we better temporarily

stop fighting each other and come together
to push this common enemy out so we

can get back to fighting each other.

And at the siege of Vienna, this
man, Bilye, who was part of an Anglo

Irish sort of adjunct semi mercenary
regiment, cavalry regiment acquired

this horse from, from the Turks.

And legend doesn't really say whether
it was bought, stolen, Spoil of

battle what but what was very clear
was when barley got hold of it.

It was as fast as it was Maneuverable
because of course a close order cavalry

horse was not actually designed for speed.

It was designed for agility and So
this horse seemed to have both so he

brings this horse home to a Ireland,
actually, County Meath and instead

of putting it at stud initially, he
finds himself at the Battle of the

Boyne, which is what decides whether
Britain will be Protestant or Catholic.

A big battle is fought there and
he's, luckily for him, on the

winning side, on the Protestant side.

And at the end he does put the horse out
to stud and it is one of the foundation

horses of the, of the thoroughbreds and
of the race, of the thoroughbred itself.

And the reason I tell that story
is because Where Thoroughbreds

began, it was just sort of coteries
of private individuals who were

interested in this kind of thing.

And then who ran races on open areas
of ground, like Newmarket, like

Lambourne, like places in Ireland.

And then, of course, as soon as
the colonies in America began, in

Virginia, in New York, anywhere,
you know, that had good pasture.

And exported that along with fox
hunting and all the other British stuff.

And It's still there to this
day, but it wasn't an industry.

It was collections of private individuals
who were enthusiasts and working

with, you know, a handful by today's
standards of horses, you know, a few

hundreds or a few thousand horses sort
of sprinkled over a few countries.

And now of course it's
grown into this bear mob.

And it is, is that the problem is
that it's become a victim of itself.

And if it shrinks, is that maybe a good
thing that it goes back to its roots

in a way and that people like you.

You know, unlikely techies with a passion
for the thing, rather like Captain

Biley back in the day, say, well, look,
you know, we just love this horse and

we sort of want to see what it can do.

And, and then might it be easier to do
the aftercare because you just don't

have so many horses to, to deal with.

And actually, is that not a
tragedy, but maybe kind of a

good thing at the end of the day?

Yeah.

Victor Bahna: I think I
do think it will shrink.

I think we're seeing shrinkage already.

And even if you look at the breeding
numbers for the last, Dozen or two dozen

years, you could see them coming down.

You know, year over year, they're, they're
kind of stabilizing at this point, but,

but they're definitely about half, maybe
what they were, you know, 20 years ago.

Already half.

Rupert Isaacson: I mean,
that's, that's big from,

Victor Bahna: from maybe not quite half,
but, but sizable decrease in the number

of thoroughbreds that are bred every year.

And I think it's just a reflection
of the industry shrinking.

I don't, I think we're going to get back
to, to the gentlemen's sort of sport that

it might have, might've been in the past.

And I think, but is

Rupert Isaacson: that not
what you yourself are doing?

Are you not a gentleman getting
together with other gentlemen?

It depends upon

Victor Bahna: who you talk to, I suppose.

But I would say that we are
seeing interesting trends though.

The syndicate is one of those trends that
started Cott Campbell, I believe started

that back in the 1980s, 90s here in the U.

S.

Now that's evolved into these very
broad partnerships like myresource.

com, in which you can have hundreds
of, Owners of a particular racehorse,

they put in a few hundred dollars and
they get the emails and the updates and

they get, and I think that's one way
to maybe attract some new interest and

ownership into the into the business, but
I don't think, I don't think in general.

We're going to go back whether it's racing
or whether it's any organized sport.

I mean, you could, you could look at
any organized sport and say, it seemed

a lot more pure, perhaps back in less
technical, perhaps, you know, back in the,

Victor Bahna (2): you know,

Victor Bahna: 50, 60 years ago,
whether it's baseball or soccer,

football, what have you now, it's
everything is just so technical.

I go to a hockey game here in
Seattle and the entire game is

choreographed and I don't mean it
from the play on the on the ice.

I mean, it from between the face offs.

I mean, in terms of the Yeah.

The script that, you know, you,
you're constantly being bombarded

with with entertainment and
sensory you know, activities.

And that never used to be the case.

I mean, you used to go to a, I used to go
to a hockey game and watch a hockey game.

I didn't have to be entertained
outside of the, the game itself.

But, you know, today we feel like
we're force fed with all of this,

you know, entertainment, so to
speak, if they want to call it that.

And to me, it's a little overload.

I think it's, you know, It's not
necessary, but that's what they're doing.

They try to bring in and
it's very scripted too.

I mean, it's like, it's almost like you
can go to any arena in the U S and you're

almost going to get the same experience.

Just different colors on the,
on the, on the, on the shirts.

And, you know, maybe

Victor Bahna (2): the

Victor Bahna: game itself might
be a little bit different.

And I think racing is the same.

I think it's become.

You know, very programmatic in a way it's
become very commoditized in that sense.

And I don't think you can go back.

I don't think you can go back to
organic once you've been commoditized.

I think that's just you know, to
use a cliche you know, once, you

know, you can't put the horse
back in the barn on this one.

And so I think that's probably where
we are with with the racing industry.

Now it can evolve, you know, And I
think that's where it needs to is,

and especially in the aftercare, I
think that's the biggest area for me

where we can do a lot more awareness.

I mentioned the industry itself having
difficulty getting out of its own way,

and I think whether it's the jockey club
or the various racing jurisdictions,

you know, having somebody really step
up and show some leadership there

would be, would be a welcome change.

The other factor, though, I think that.

We're facing, and I'm sure you're facing
this in Europe too is just the cost of

maintenance of a horse is, you know,
and you're thinking about a horse that

retires at five or six that might live
to the 30, you know, you've got 25

years of care and feeding of that horse.

It's expensive and the amount of land
that's available is shrinking too.

You know, there's more development,
there's more urbanization,

there's less there's less farmland
and there's less expertise.

Where I live, finding a farrier is hard.

I have one and he's a good one.

I'm fortunate to have that, but you
know, there's not like, you know,

a Rolodex of farriers that I can
go through and say, well, you know,

if this one's not available, I have
to, I can just schedule another one.

That's just an example of the sort
of changing landscape that we're

seeing, you know, my farrier.

I, I, I, I'll, you know, just on
that story alone, you know, I, I

hold my farrier appointments, like.

These are the most unmovable appointments
that I've got on my calendar.

Rupert Isaacson: I've got this amazing
farrier who's approaching retirement.

And it's like, I'm just in total
denial about it because it's,

I can't imagine life beyond it.

Yeah.

And

Victor Bahna: I know that if
I, if I missed that appointment

for whatever reason, it's like
getting back on his calendar is

going to be like near impossible.

So it's like, I tell everybody by

Rupert Isaacson: your, by your girlfriend
or your boyfriend, you have to do this.

Exactly.

It's like, no,

Victor Bahna: the farrier takes.

Complete priority over everything else.

So, but that's just an example.

But yeah, the cost is, the cost is high.

And, and I don't think that when a
lot of owners, when they get involved

in racing, they, and I, and I was of
this case too, you know, you think

about the racing, you think about the
excitement, you think about the, you

know, you have this dream of going to the
Kentucky Derby and being the guy that's.

holding the trophy one of these days
and, and, you know, gaining all that

glory, but you don't necessarily think
about, Hey, I'm going to retire this

horse one day, and I'm going to make
sure he's on a farm and I'm going to

be paying board rate for, for this
horse for, you know, 25 or 30 years.

It's not something you just generally
start thinking about when you're making

that purchase decision, you know If you're
in if you're in Keeneland, and you're

you're bidding Eighty ninety a hundred
thousand dollars on the horse, you know,

you're not thinking hmm What am I gonna
do with the source after they're done

racing you're thinking about which is

Rupert Isaacson: so interesting, isn't it?

Because everybody knows how long
horses live, you know And so the

person who buys that horse really is
only thinking it's saying well This

is a hundred thousand that I'm willing
to spend and lose but the loss You

They're thinking it's
just my financial loss.

Victor Bahna: That's right, they're
thinking it's a financial loss

and it's a three or four year
investment is what they're thinking.

Yeah, yeah.

Not a thirty year investment.

Rupert Isaacson: What happens to
the horse the rest of the time.

But I'm glad that you're, you
know, drawing attention to this.

And of course it's a, you know,
it's a longer conversation.

And it's not something one can solve
in one podcast, but I think it's a

Victor Bahna: hard conversation at that
I mean, it's it's it's a hard reality

that we have to confront in my opinion

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, and it'll be
interesting to see where it goes.

I think you know, we're all involved
in in this aftercare business but it's

interesting that it's Us as individuals
and small organizations really

which brings me to actually another
industry which has acquired a bit of

a dark side of life and that's tech.

So, you know, when, when the tech boom
happened you know, it was the great thing

and it is, I mean, look here at you and I
on zoom, we wouldn't be able to do this.

You wouldn't have been able to
publish your book, you know,

without so, so easily at any rate.

It, so, you know, social media makes.

So much possible and it's been really
the big thing that's come out of tech

except for AI and we know that Australia
has just passed a law a groundbreaking

law banning I don't know how they're
going to enforce it but banning the

use of social media for under 16s.

That's a pretty good litmus test
of the damage that's being done.

I've got two younger kids now and
it's very interesting to see how

the impacts of social media begin.

And to already now be thinking
about how do I mitigate this?

How do I battle this unseen demon that
is so much bigger than me yet with

which you cannot do without anymore?

And, Full disclosure, yeah, in certain
cases, I will absolutely go ahead

and use some chat GPT here and there.

Like everybody else, it's like
having a secretary that you don't

have to pay for, it's incredible.

And at the same time, we know that
they're busy trying to replace the

human, and what we think of as AI is
not what's coming, you know, and we have

no idea really of what's coming, but we
know it's going to be as fraught with

the goods and the bads as everything
else that humans have come up with.

You're in the middle of the tech
industry and you've been in there since

it's earlies and you're still there.

You're sitting there in, in, in
Washington State, in Seattle, you know,

people think of Silicon Valley, but
Microsoft obviously and many other big

tech companies are up there in Seattle.

There's a bit of a parallel really between
the the racing industry and the original

sort of origins of the thoroughbred and
tech, because it began, you know, with

groups of nerds, you know, and I remember
contemporaries of mine who were at

university who were, you know, 57 now, and
they were the computer science, you know,

Geeks who then went on to rule the world.

They were the princes of tomorrow Many of
them became that and then they offered us

Stuff beyond our wildest imaginations and
we all took it, you know gladly and still

do Yet this small league of gentlemen
developing this technology whether it's

the thoroughbred horse, you know, it
Baboof became an industry rather quicker.

And now here we are.

You're still right there in it
and where's this going for us?

And what's the aftercare for us?

The horses upon which the, the,
the AI and the social media are

being ridden, you know, we are, we
are the horses we're being ridden.

What, what, what, what's the,
what's the prognosis from someone

who's in the middle of it?

And maybe is that your next novel?

Victor Bahna: I don't know
if it's my next novel.

It's a, it's a very interesting
subject and it's one we're all living

through as, as, as you referenced.

It's interesting the Australia thing.

I don't, I don't think
you can regulate morality.

I think that's I think that's just the

Rupert Isaacson: fact that it's
come to this, that a, that a

government is doing this is
indicative of People going, oh shit.

On a, on a big , it's a,

Victor Bahna: Yeah, it's with, with
every advance that we make, you know,

there's, there's always that sort
of paradox of, of, of good and bad.

And, you know, too much of a
good thing can be a bad thing.

And, you know, I think we experience
that, you know, quite a bit.

And I think, I think it's just accelerated
with with technology over the last.

30 years.

And the industry itself has,
has transformed, I think, in,

in the time that I, from when I
started to, to where I am now and

Rupert Isaacson: yeah, you were doing
supply chain of floppy disks and

Victor Bahna: yeah, we
were, we were basically

Rupert Isaacson: plastic packages.

I

Victor Bahna: remember being in a, in
a in a warehouse and we were actually

physically shrink wrapping the boxes
ourselves and putting in the disks.

And I think it was my, I
think it was office 95 had.

48 or 64 floppy disks
to, to do an upgrade.

Think about that today.

It's like, what?

And, and, you know, I, I might be, you
know, from the last generation that,

that grew up in, in a pre internet sort
of world and, you know, I tell my kids

and, you know, you know, I'm 59 myself
and I tell my kids, I'm like I'm glad the

internet wasn't around when I was your
age because I might not want you to see

what what might've happened back then.

Nor do I necessarily want to remember,
but it's, it's transformed a lot.

And I don't know, I think, I think
that within the industry itself, it's.

Similar like you mentioned to
the business of racing and horses

in that it's very commoditized.

It's become all about
the next earnings report.

It's all about how much
revenue are we going to make?

It's about how much, how much control
can we, can we impart to some extent

it's about clicks and eyeballs and our
attention spans have been dramatically

reduced as a result of all of the
information overload that we're seeing.

I mean, how many, how often are
you just walking through your

neighborhood and you see people
with their heads in their phones?

I mean, people aren't even,
they're crossing the street

without even looking up sometimes.

And, and it's just like, we're, we're
just like consumed by what, whatever that

next click is, or I don't know if it's,
if it's the dopamine rush or if it's

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, we're consumed by
each other really, as we always have been.

But it's just, as you say.

On turbo fuel and accelerated and

Victor Bahna: And it's just getting
it's going to get faster and faster.

And I think in a way I think this is
where my thoroughbred is, has rescued

me in some ways, because he brings
me back to something that's real,

something that I could touch and
something that I can interact with.

And there's no, there's no phone.

I leave my phone in my
truck when I go see him.

I don't even want to be disturbed.

You know, it's just it's just nature.

And it's back to something that just.

To me is just such a good
counterbalance to being on the

machine all, all, all day long.

But it's a, it's a challenging space.

The the industry has grown up fast.

I mean, the valuation of
tech companies today is, is.

Mind boggling actually.

You know, when you think of the market
market cap, you think about the largest.

Companies in the world by market cap
and, you know, a lot of them are the tech

ones, you know, Microsoft, Apple NVIDIA.

I mean, these are the companies that are
leading the way from a, from a valuation

perspective and, and you got to think
about, you know, the larger they get,

you know, the more they get to sort
of control the narrative, so to speak.

But even that, I mean, I think
it's out of, I don't think it's

any entity or person or thing.

I think it's kind of.

It's on its own to this extent,
you know, this is another example.

I just don't think you put
the horse back in the barn.

Rupert Isaacson: No, for sure.

It's just interesting.

It's interesting to speculate.

Where's it going to go?

I was listening to a An investment guru
on a podcast, the diary of a CEO podcast.

And it's a, it's a good one.

And he was, he's a crypto guru
can try and find his name.

If I get on my phone at my phone, which
is of course sitting right by next

to my hand while I'm talking to you.

And He was saying, if you're
going to invest in the next

little while, you either invest in
crypto and tech, or it's opposite.

And this was really interesting.

He said, or you invest in nature.

And he pointed out that the more
people become tech focused, the

more the nature need becomes acute.

Because nature can mean many
things, but it's also a human,

human interaction, right?

So if you were going into the office
in the old days, even if the office

was shit and your boss was shit and it
was a shit environment, it was a group

of people and you were interacting
with a group of people and you were on

the subway going there and there were
groups of people there and again, it was

divorced from nature with a capital N,
but the interactions were still there.

And of course that's not gone away
completely, but it's on its way out.

And You think, well then with
home office or being able to work

remote and that sort of thing.

Well, great, great.

I'm now free.

I'm free to do what?

Sit in front of a screen for 14
hours and not interact with anybody.

But nature is right outside my door.

So, do I go and seek those experiences
for my mental health or not?

And, so his point was this is going
to become more and more acute.

There you are, within the tech industry,
going and seeking for your mental

health, which has Basically what this
horse is giving you nature through

four legs and this sentient being
who is Extremely sensitive and is

showing you all sorts of wonderful life
lessons like the escalation and so but

also just love just the relationship

Victor Bahna: Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: and the
passion and so on and the beauty

Is that where the nexus
of what you're doing?

With tech and the racehorses and
the aftercare can come together.

Do we need to go and rescue?

Burned out techies With sensitive
horses, but but seriously, I mean Nature

coming to the aid of what else could

Victor Bahna: I think
there is an option to

Rupert Isaacson: cure
us, but nature for this.

Yeah,

Victor Bahna: I think that it's
interesting the reference that you

gave because I agree with that is I
think statistically we're seeing we're

seeing higher level of medications,
whether it's, you know, depression,

anxiety or other we're seeing a higher
number of a higher necessity and, and

maybe it's not necessarily a higher
necessity, but more recognition for the

need for, for therapy in, in general.

And I think that.

We could look at the horses as a, a
very rich and powerful source of that

kind of, that kind of relief or therapy
whether it's helping with with anxiety

or depression or you know, providing
some kind of therapy and it's not

necessarily a silver bullet that's
going to solve all problems, but,

Victor Bahna (2): you know,

Victor Bahna: I do think that there's
something to be said for getting back to

that and you know, burned out employees is
not the tech industry works people hard.

I mean, it's, it's, it's
not for the faint of heart.

It's become more and more
competitive in the, in the years

that I've been involved in it.

It's become more specialized.

The, the, the entry bars
to get in are, are raised.

So the point where the competition
is, is significant and it's global.

You know, when I started
it was mostly within the U.

S., but it's, it's entirely global now.

You're going to find an engineering
organization that's, that's going to be

you know, very diverse in, in that sense.

And it's, it's only.

Increasing, I think the, or accelerating,
you know, the progress of the industry

itself, but it's also, you know, you're
seeing a couple of dominant players

come out of this and, and, you know,
they're probably going to be the ones

that dictate the future and is clearly
one of the it's, in my opinion, it's

just, it's just the next thing that the
next revolution that we're going to see.

And I don't know where it's going.

I'm a little scared of it, but I
also know that I've got a, I've got

a horse I can run to if I need to.

And You know, he'll he's not going to
worry about about AI or you know, or

the internet or anything like that.

So, yeah, it's, it's, it's hard to
predict though, and we are living through

it, but I, I would, I would say, you
know, if we can, if we can exploit the.

Value that we gain from these from
these horses and we could do that in

a in a constructive and positive way
and provide an outlet to folks that

are have their head in their phone,
you know, when every waking hour that

to me would be something that we can,
we can definitely I could, I could

definitely see some opportunity there.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's
a lot of ground covered.

Victor Bahna: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: A rich
and interesting life.

I would say self actualized
what's next for you.

What are you, what are
you going to do now?

You're obviously producing thoroughbreds.

I presume you're going to keep writing
books and keep working in tech, but what's

yeah, what's, what's your next thing?

Victor Bahna: I would like to continue
to learn more about this aftercare space.

Yeah.

I think if I'm going to throw myself
into something that would probably

be a, a pretty Good place to do that.

Don't know how much longer I've got in
tech in regards to, you know, career path.

I'm kind of near the, I'm on the
the back nine or maybe the back

one of my, of my tech career.

And that, that should free me up
to do, maybe do a few more things.

I, I definitely think, you know,
involving horses and, and, you know,

promoting, you know, some of the things
that they do getting more involved,

I think would be something I would.

I would look to look to pursue if
there's another story in there.

There's another good narrative
that I can I can create.

Yeah, I think I would, I would
definitely go down that path as well.

But I think there's a little bit
of time for self reflection to

that will have to take place.

And, you know, I don't necessarily
just want to go 100 miles an hour

from from 1 thing to another.

So, I don't think a lot of time
for self reflection, but just

enough to make sure that the next.

The next big project is, is
going to be a fulfilling 1 you

know, for, for what it's just

Rupert Isaacson: interesting, isn't it?

How this conversation starts with
a boy who isn't experiencing much

nature, who finds an expression of it

through the horse through racing.

And that, because that's also what was
available in terms of the horse, but

also the thrill of, of the betting,
which to some degree takes the

place of the sort of hunter gatherer
thrill, you know, that's innate in us.

And then you take this long segue through
the tech industry and where do you

come back to nature through this book?

And I do think that's such a metaphor
for, you know, All of us, really.

You know, when we're facing a shit,
what is going to happen in this future?

What is happening with AI?

I think the more, the only thing
that comes to mind is going to the

bush, get on a horse and go into the
bush, you know, sure, we might have

a drone up top, you know, looking out
for some things, you know, but yeah

Victor Bahna: Well, that's good because if
you get thrown from the horse, the drone

will pick it up and they'll be able to
call a vet for you or the or the doctor.

So you can actually come and physically

Rupert Isaacson: lift you.

And yeah, there you go.

And I would love to connect you
with the people that I know who are

working in these various countries
with thoroughbred aftercare.

I think you guys are natural partners
and I'm very happy to work with you.

That'd be awesome.

Victor Bahna: I would love to
get more connected in that space.

Rupert Isaacson: But listen, thanks,
it's been a great conversation.

Tell us again the name of your book,
where they can find it, and if people

want to find out more about what
you're doing with thoroughbreds.

Give us the link.

Yeah,

Victor Bahna: so the name of
the book is Haliacal Star.

And that's H E L I A C A L star.

And you can find it on Amazon or
any of your online booksellers.

Rupert Isaacson: It's a five star
reviewed book, by the way, everybody.

It's worth a read.

Yeah.

Victor Bahna: Thank you for that.

And you can also go to my website, which
is my first name, last name, victorbana.

com.

B A H N A.

Yeah.

B A H N A, correct.

Yeah.

And you will find information
about the book and you'll, you'll

see you know, some of the things
that are, that are happening.

And you also have an email for me on that
contact on that on that website as well.

So, you know, feel free
to contact me as well.

Very good.

But I, I would really appreciate
the, the introduction to some

of these rescue operations.

It's definitely an area of high interest
for me and I, I do see myself getting

more involved in this as as I continue to
to, to move forward in my own life cycle.

Rupert Isaacson: And I'll throw
that one out there to the listeners

too, if any of you are interested in
getting involved in this aftercare of

thoroughbreds thing, it's, it's worth it.

And these are animals that have a lot
to give and absolutely help people.

I was just, just doing a training
in Scotland with a group called

Horseback UK, who use a lot of off
the track thoroughbreds with ex

special forces guys who've come back.

Missing large parts of themselves
and at risk youth and many other

vulnerable populations and the horses
are just doing an incredible job.

So, yeah, yeah, as as the world
gets techier, we get horse here.

Yeah,

Victor Bahna: exactly.

Rupert Isaacson: All right, my friend.

Well, I look forward
to more conversations.

Thank you so much for coming on.

Victor Bahna: Yeah, thank
you again for, for having me.

I really appreciate it.

I enjoyed the conversation and and
looking forward to to more in the future.

Rupert Isaacson: Till next time.

Thank you for joining us.

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