Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson

Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Live Free
Ride Free, where we talk to people who

have lived self-actualized lives on
their own terms, and find out how they

got there, what they do, how we can
get there, what we can learn from them.

How to live our best lives, find
our own definition of success,

and most importantly, find joy.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.

New York Times bestselling
author of the Horse Boy.

Founder of New Trails Learning
Systems and long ride home.com.

You can find details of all our programs
and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.

Welcome back to Live Free, ride Free.

I've got someone really amazing
and wonderful, as all my livery

ride free people are today.

It's Nick Ross.

, Nick Ross is not a household name.

You do not need to be a household name
in order to live a self-actualized life.

, you just have to go live one.

And of the many people I know
who've really achieved this,

Nick's one of my heroes.

I've known Nick, since he and I were
of university age, so this was a.

40 or 50,000 years ago, I think in the
younger driest ice age, in between the

masteron and the Mammoth, evolution.

And in that time, Nick
was, always famous among our

peer group for two things.

, one was his passion for art and art
history, which he had then he has now

and has lived through and has managed
to make a living out of, in a way that

people would always say to him, well,
you can't make a living out of that.

Oh, it's all very well studying that,
but you can't make a living out of that.

You know, you never make a living out
of that and you certainly can't bring

up your kids and educate them on that.

No Bloody Charlie well has,
and he hasn't done it in a

boring, academic sort of way.

Not that there's anything wrong with
being a professor of, art history.

In fact, we love the fact that people are.

But no, he's done it completely honest in
own terms, in a really interesting way.

Those of you who are familiar with
the romantic period of, British and

indeed European history will probably
know something called the Grand Tour.

And, those of you who don't know what
the Grand Tour is, well now I'm gonna

tell you, there was a time, and it really
started, in the Renaissance when the

sons of the nobility of Europe were
encouraged to go and educate themselves,

by traveling around the ancient sites
of Italy, Roman Renaissance and so on.

And later on to some degree Greece as
well, and learned the humanities and

basically learn to appreciate culture and
learn a certain sort of humility and a

certain sort of, emotional regulation.

In the face of the grand passions of
the arts and, the idea of standing

on the shoulders of giants and so on.

And some people saw this as a
self-indulgent exercise of, you know,

rich young men sort of drinking and
whoing and fighting their way around,

the flesh pits of, of the Mediterranean.

And although it's not that,
that never happened cuz you were

dealing with young men here.

much of the literature and art that we
take for granted that came out of the

particularly early 19th century period,
like Byron, like Shelly, like Keets,

or it came out of these experiences.

and that's just, that's just the, the
handful that spring to my mind these days.

Nick has taken that idea and made it much
more democratic and also not strictly

male and not strictly for the rich and.

Has opened this idea of going to these
places and, and imbibing this culture

as a way to mature the young minds who
will become the leaders of tomorrow.

And has made an extraordinarily good
go of it and has had an enormous amount

of fun along the way and has indeed, I
would say, trained some of the leaders

of today, because we're going back a
whole generation now when this began.

So, Nick Ross is really a, an example of
if you have a passion and you wanna follow

it, don't let anybody talk you out of it.

Don't let anybody say you can't make
doing that, because what they mean is

they can't make a living doing that.

And if you make a living doing
that well, it makes them feel

a bit bad about themselves.

So you want to sort of do what
Nick did and sort of jolly

well go ahead and do it now.

There were two things I said
that stood out about Nick.

That was one, his passion for art.

For showing people this art.

The other thing was his bio capes
that he would wear and still

does, and his elegantly striding.

Yet at the same time, heroically limping
gait, which came as a result of a broken

neck while doing something he wrote
while playing rugby as a very young

man while actually still at school.

And again, having been told that
perhaps his prospects weren't so good

and that certainly spending the next
50 years, leading, groups of, high

spirited you young leaders of the
next generation around kilometers

and kilometers and kilometers and
kilometers and kilometers and kilometers

and kilometers of ancient cities and
sight wouldn't really be possible.

Well, he beat those odds.

, so I want to shut up now
and let you meet Nick.

So without further ado, Nick, hello and
thanks for coming on Live Free Ride for,

Nick Ross: hi there, Ru.

Thank you very much.

That's, yes.

I didn't know you knew that much about me.

, Rupert Isaacson: well, you
know, it's been a few years.

Yeah.

, and obviously I'm a huge fan.

Always have been.

tell us who you are, where'd
you come from, and what kicked

your life off along this path?

Nick Ross: Oh, , so, father, father
was a, , naval officer mother.

Joan had polio when she was ju
just after they were engaged.

So, in a way, , my difficulties
physically were, were I, I

ended up mirroring my mother.

Interesting, many respect
that I didn't know.

And, and, so she had Beba Polio in 1947
and didn't have the use of her left arm.

and, and actually she was probably about
20% of any other physically able person.

So the idea of growing up with
disability was, was, was, completely

normal for us as, so that's, that's
sort of kind of where I came from.

, and, why, why did I end up
doing what I'm doing now?

Well, there's two reasons.

, as you point out, the, the first one
was that I ended up breaking my spine,

playing rugby, and, and I wound up in,
in a hospital bed at Stoke Mandeville.

And, , and then I, I, , I remember
being there and, , and realizing that.

What I had hoped would be a career
in the Navy was never gonna happen.

And that until that point in my life
when I was 16, I'd, , I'd been Mr.

Sporty if you, if you could define me.

It was that I was fast at running and
I loved, , rugby and stuff like that.

And, and, , and I'd shown
no signs of having a brain.

And, , and I remember lying there in bed
thinking, I've gotta change the Braun

into brain now if I'm gonna be left with
only my mind and no physical presence

or, you know, no, no activity, then I
would, I would have to employ my mind.

At

Rupert Isaacson: what age,
how, what, what age were you

when you had this realization?

, Nick Ross: I was 16.

Okay.

And, And, , so I started reading,
, which I, I had, really tried to

avoid up until, until that point.

Rupert Isaacson: Did they, did
they actually have to teach

you to read in the hospital?

Nick Ross: Pretty well?

Very well.

Anyway.

The, the, but the, the other thing
was that my, my parents, they

had, when they first married,
they didn't have very much money.

It was that sort of post-war period.

And, they, they worked really
hard and they didn't go on holiday.

They never left the farm that they took
up because my father left the Navy in

order to look after my mother, and he
needed a job where he could work at home.

So he thought, all I know about is
the sea and managing men and fighting.

, and, so he thought, well, I, I do
also know a lot about the weather,

and so I'll take up farming.

And so he did farming.

And, what sort of farmer was he?

Well started off mixed.

Mixed an arable, but then
ended up just doing dairy.

But, but he, they, they didn't
go away for 18 years, because they

were building the farm, building
family, all of those sorts of things.

And when I was seven they went, they
took us all to Florence and my parents

did an awful lot of work before we went
so that they always knew where, wherever

we were, whatever building we were in,
they kind of knew some story about it.

And, and that's sort of
where it all came from.

So, jumped 10 years, or jumped
nine years to, to the day

that I ended up in hospital.

If you'd asked me then what
else are you interested in?

It was art.

And it was entirely because my parents
had made sure that whenever we went

somewhere that they weren't dragging
us around, that they had something

to say, you know, they were informed.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, that's interesting
that, given that your dad was ex-military

and then became a farmer and then you
were growing up as a, a farm boy when

you weren't at school and when you were
at school being a jock, art would seem

a little bit of a guilty secret to have.

Was that something that you kept
to yourself or was that something

you willingly shared with the other
jocks and would pop them on the

nose if they teased you about it?

Or how did that, because those
are two, those are normally two

exclusive cultures within the school.

There'd be the jocks and the Fs.

Right.

And so you were, you were
sort of an equal hybrid there.

Yeah.

How, how did that happen?

Nick Ross: oh, the, no, I
think, I think, people generally

knew I was interested enough.

I was always around the art school,
and put on, I remember we did,

we did something on, on futurism.

When I was about 13 and, and we
just transformed the, we, we built

a structure inside the art school.

and it was a sort of passage through war.

And yeah, no, so I think people
knew I was interested in art.

Yeah.

So that wasn't a conflict, that wasn't
a problem, if you see what I mean.

Mm-hmm.

But I take your point.

It, it, it doesn't sit, it doesn't
sit, , conveniently together.

Rupert Isaacson: So you're lying in
this hospital bed in Stoke Mandeville.

But for those listeners who don't
know Stoke Mandeville is if you have

a really bad spinal injury in the uk,
you're gonna end up in Stok, Mandeville.

and when I was at school, there
was a boy who, , broke his neck on

the rugby field as well, who ended
up there and he didn't make it.

So, it just, if you ended up there,
it meant that it was pretty serious.

so you are lying there.

you are thinking, oh God,
you know, there go my dreams.

I'm only 16.

But I love art.

And you haven't been back to Italy since
you were seven, or have you at this point?

No.

Right.

No.

So, so this is a cherish memory.

A a de and a decade old, which is a
long time for somebody that young,

obviously that's half your life.

more, you begin to read.

What are you

Nick Ross: reading?

Oh, everything about two thirds
through, because I started reading

the story, Gore's story of art.

and then I started reading other books.

But the thing was that, because at the
time I had very little movement, I could

only rarely ro move my, rotate my wrist.

I couldn't, I, I had no, I had no biceps.

And I didn't have anything else.

Stomach, muscles, legs stalled
the rest, none of them worked.

And, but I could rotate my wrist.

so rather like a royal wave, I could,
I could do this, which meant that

the, there was a, I had a leather
strap around my hand, which, upon

which or into which was stuck.

an aluminum stick with a pat post office,
you know, one of those, , finger po po

rubber things that you put at the end of
the finger to, to turn pages quickly.

Okay.

And, and, with this peculiar, this
royal wave, I could, I could just flick

the top of the, Left hand page, having
read the, the spread, I could flick

the top of the left hand page and then
sh and then, and then push it under

the keeper of the right hand keeper.

Okay.

Show me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I've got, I've got this
lectin with a book over

Rupert Isaacson: my head.

So you are lying on your
back looking up at the book.

Yeah.

And the book is suspended
over your face at this point?

Nick Ross: Yes.

And, and, I had to bite my thumb,
because if my arm spasmed, it would

spasm away from my face, which would
take my hand away from the book.

And I didn't have the biceps
to get their arm back again.

So I had to bite my thumb
in order to keep hold of it.

And then, and then flick one page and
then, and then if you see what I mean,

Push it under the keeper the other side.

As the book got heavier on the right
hand side, the more I read, it became

unstable from its left hand tethering.

And so every so often
it would just collapse.

As I got towards the, the, it got
further through the book, it would

get heavier on the right hand side
and it would keep on collapsing.

So I am, I'm really shit after about
1900 in terms of art, because that

was in the last third of the book.

so, so kept you, kept
you in the Renaissance?

Kept me in the Renaissance.

That's the only reason I
know anything about it.

Rupert Isaacson: and how long did
this level of disability last?

Nick Ross: I was, I was in there
for about eight, well nine months.

and I, I was just walking, by
the time I left I could just

about bear my own weight.

And, and yeah, I could walk.

I wasn't, it wasn't totally unaided,
but, but then, but then I went

straight back to school cuz I'd
missed my lower sixth year, so my

penultimate year at secondary school.

And, so I went back straight back
to school to my A levels in a year.

which wasn't a good idea.

Well, it was actually in one
sense because it meant that I

kept up with ev all of my mates.

but it wasn't long enough to do
three A levels and besides, I,

I was running the school bar,
which was really quite good fun.

Of course you were.

Yeah.

And, and

Rupert Isaacson: delegating the
hefting of the crates and barrels.

Nick Ross: Yes.

All but, but the long and
the short of it was today.

I ended up, with really, really
appalling A levels and, and said, so

I did all sorts of other things for a
while, but always wanted to get back

towards art history in some way or form.

Rupert Isaacson: So just quickly
before, while you're still there

in state mander, was there any
point, were you really despaired?

Nick Ross: yes.

Yeah, there was one, one
point when my spine wasn't.

it's a peculiarity of spinal injuries
that, in, in where, where normally

children, when you break a bone, you
fix really quickly when you break your

neck, you don't, you do, you do break the
bones, but it's, but it's the cartilage in

between as you dislocate, you know, things
that, that's the problem and that's where.

You get severance of the spinal
cord and, and that's what

leads to the paralysis weirdly.

For younger people, it
doesn't fix so well.

And, and that's exactly
what happened to me.

So after, after about, 12 weeks, my
spine actually hadn't fused in any way.

It hadn't joined up.

And, , so they had to do an operation
on me, and I had very limited movement.

That movement that I had was
how I was reading and so on.

Anyway, I heard the, the orthopedic,
because all I could see was the ceiling.

I couldn't feel anything.

And so my ear, my hearing got
really good and I could overhear.

The orthopedic surgeon who thought he was
out of earshot, say, you know, it's, it's,

we've very rarely done this operation.

It's very dangerous.

He may lose everything that he's got so
far and we may do more damage than good.

And, and the next morning I projectile
putte all over the, the male

nurse who was giving me breakfast.

And I projectile puked everything
for the next two and a half weeks.

And what it was, was
that I was shit scared.

I was deeply, deeply frightened, that I
was gonna, I was gonna lose everything and

I was going to be finally without options.

And,

Rupert Isaacson: and did you keep all
this to yourself or did you share this

Nick Ross: with anybody?

Well, the thing was that I was
sharing so much vomit with everybody

that, that, everybody knew I, you
know, they, everybody else around

me knew that the only reason I was
throwing up like this was cuz I was.

I was, I was terrified.

Rupert Isaacson: And you had to live
in suspense then for two weeks or

so after having heard this with,
with the uncertainty of the outcome.

Nick Ross: Yeah, exactly.

And the problem was that, I
was losing so much weight.

I went in at about 13, 13 and
a half stone and six foot, and

I was down below six stone.

And they were, and, and I was getting
so thin that they thought that, I

wouldn't be able to sustain an operation.

Rupert Isaacson: And again, for those,
for those, listeners who don't know

the English, weight measurements,
he is, you're ba he's basically

gone in there, as a teenager of
about 130, 140 pounds, at six foot,

which is, you know, light athletic.

And gone down to 50, 60 pounds at six
foot, which is not healthy at all.

Why did they decide to operate
when you had lost so much weight?

oh, well, the,

Nick Ross: the, if they didn't
operate, my spine would just be kind

of floating in the, the vertebrae
would've been floating in jelly.

Okay.

So to speak.

And so it was

Rupert Isaacson: do or die at that point?

Yes.

Nick Ross: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

okay.

Then you wake up from the operation.

Yes.

do you think, oh shit, I've, I've
actually lost everything because

you're feeling, lying there, feeling
weak or do you, does some part

of, you know, okay, this is good.

Oh,

Nick Ross: well, no, actually,
do you know, I haven't

thought about this since ever.

Actually, I do remember coming round
and, you know, the, my physiotherapist.

senior consultant were all
shouting at me trying to get

me to move and, and just see.

Anyway, so I did, I did have the bicep.

That was the, it was my right bicep
that I wanted back, most of all.

Cuz if I had that, I knew that I had
a chance of getting my fingers back.

And if I had one hand and one
arm, I'd be the same as my mom.

And if she, the, and that was my focus was
that if I had, if I just had that, I knew

that she'd had four children on one arm.

So, so why couldn't I, you
know, it would all be fine.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

fast forward, how many kids have you had?

three.

All right.

So you, you, well you've maybe
got time to make up one more.

We'll see.

Unless there's any out
there that you dunno of.

okay.

So, how quickly from then.

From that operation?

Are you up and walking and, are
you, do you continue to read and

do you read more voraciously at

Nick Ross: that point?

Yeah, no, so I'm, I'm now, it took me
another six months to, to be walking

six, seven months to be walking.

And then I was reading, I
was reading all the time.

Rupert Isaacson: what, what
was the, what's the book that

really stands out from that time?

Nick Ross: ooh, oh.

Prob probably Bax Sandal who
wrote Painting and Experience

in 15th Century Florence

Rupert Isaacson: Bax, Sendal.

How do we spell

Nick Ross: that?

B A X A N D A

Rupert Isaacson: double L.

Bax Sinal.

B A X A N D A L L.

Yeah.

And the, the title of the book.

Nick Ross: Painting and experience
in 15th century Florence

Rupert Isaacson: painting
and experience in 15th.

And why does that book, why
did that book stand out?

, Nick Ross: cause it's,
it's all about, , context.

So he talks about, , weights and measures.

He talks about, , you know,
who, who may, who made paint.

he's, he's talking about the
current, he's talking about currency.

, he's talking about all of those
little aspects of life that

people tend to forget, that have a
bearing on the way things appear.

Right.

and, , what was it the other day?

I, I was, something was going
around the internet the other day

about the gauge of railway lines.

, the distance between railway
tracks and it being related to.

Which is a, which is a measurement
that's now spread around the world.

, but it relates to a tunnel in, in
South Wales, something like that.

I'm probably getting this wrong, but
it's a, it's a, it's a, it's, it's, it's

just an explanation of why something
is ordinary and as common as the size

of a train is related to something
that happened in the 18th century.

That was some, some engineer somewhere
just said, oh, well there's a problem.

This is a solution.

And then it's get, it
gets stuck in the system.

It's rather like laws that
stuck on the statute books.

I'm kind of interested in the detri
of history that may that explains

why things are the way they are.

Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

Got it.

And you, and you picked that up while
lying there on your back trying to go

from one bicep to the rest of your body.

Yes.

Nick Ross: Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: So you, you.

Fuel the fire of your
passion while lying there.

you go back to school,
you run a bar, why not?

Yeah.

you, your A levels are okay, but
I, when I met you, a, a levels

again, by the way, for readers not
familiar with the English, system.

You must have a levels at the end of
school if you want to get to university.

Now, when I met you, of course
you had gone to university, so

you said you did stuff in between.

So, so fill us in.

You, you don't go straight to university
to do art history at this point.

You, you leave school and you do what?

Nick Ross: so, so I, then, I then, okay,
so at school, cause they broke my spine,

I was, I, I I, I became very well known.

Everybody knew who I was.

So, so in a, which is a weird place
to be because at 16, 17, you're

trying to work out who you are, right?

But if you are surrounded by people
who already know who you are, it's a,

it's a, it's a curious place to be in.

Okay.

And, and, so when I left school, I
didn't wanna have anything to do with

connections or anybody, any, any friends.

Okay.

I just wanted to find my own job,
my own place to live, my own life.

I wanted to work out, find out if I
could exist, if I could work, if I was,

if I was socially adept, as opposed
to just being the bloke who broke his

neck, who everybody knows who he is.

I dunno if that makes any sense.

It does.

And

Rupert Isaacson: or, and or the
bloke who get you get free drinks off

Nick Ross: in the bar.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

So I ended up, I ended up in a
shitty little bed, sit in Fulham.

and, where I could, I could sit
on the edge of my bed, wash, dress,

and sleep all in the same place.

Take 1 1, 1 stride and
I'd be out the door.

It was tiny.

Okay.

I got my j my myself, a job at
Liberties, which is a, a big

haberdasher's, big department store.

One of the earliest
department stores in London.

And then, and then I ended up working
as a bank clerk, doing anything, doing

nights, you know, you know how it is, you
know, 18, 19, you just, you need money,

you gotta go and find it somewhere.

And then I ended up working as a, as
a volunteer in a museum in Manchester.

and, because I wanted to get somewhere
towards the arts, but I, I, I, didn't

have the A levels, I needed some something
to go to a university interview with.

And so I ended up working in
Manchester and I was also quite

interested in photography.

So I started taking photographs
of, Of, pubs on the way, on the

way home from the art gallery.

And, there's a theme running here.

and,

Rupert Isaacson: and it's good to know
that you're dedicated to research.

Yes.

Yeah.

Nick Ross: And if, if you know
about, developing or printing,

black, white photographs, so I
take these rather dramatic images

and then I print them myself.

But, but if you know the old-fashioned
process, I would under fixx them in the

dark room so that they would then, when
they would dry and put in a black bag.

If you opened the bag and exposed
it to light, then the print would

disappear in about five minutes.

Okay.

And the reason I did this, It's simply
that if you take a photograph and try

to sell it to anybody, it's really
difficult to get the money outta them.

so I would, I would under fix the
photograph, dry it, stick it in the

black bag, and stick on the outside.

A sort of mission impossible types.

Sticker had them express, especially
printed, which said, in this

bag is a photograph of your pub.

It will self destruct in five minutes.

If you want it, ring this number
and I'll bring it around to

you and you give me the money.

That sort of thing.

Rupert Isaacson: Anyway,
anyone give you that idea?

It's a brilliant idea.

Why didn't you spend No, no, no.

Well, it was just doing that,

Nick Ross: you know how well in those
days if you went to a party, people

would, take your photograph outside.

Yeah.

And, and, but they never, I never got it.

I never understood how they made
it any money because people would

take the photograph and never pay.

So anyway, so I just thought if I, if
you novel the photograph from the outset,

then, then, Then, so then they would open
the photograph when, you know, I'd, I'd

encouraged them to open the photograph
when there were others around and and

they loved the photographs and they'd give
me a call and say, great, we'd like it.

So I printed up, on really fine paper and
then take it round mounted and everything.

And they loved the photographs cause
they were sort of gritty, urban, you

know, reflections in puddles type
images, you know, the ones, and,

Rupert Isaacson: and, and
the pub owners liked that.

They didn't want you to take chocolate
boxy things, that they thought No,

Nick Ross: they loved the black
and white grainy thing and the, but

then the thing was that people would
ask me to photograph their kids and

that was the, that was the thing.

So then I'd spend all weekends
photographing people's families and

printing them up on black and white.

Okay.

And and that's how I made
a living cuz I was working.

And you were doing all

Rupert Isaacson: this in Manchester?

Yeah.

Okay.

So you are taking photographs of
disappearing pubs and children.

Yes.

I'd rather like that y your kids
will self distract in five minutes.

Yeah, no.

Great.

On that image there.

Yes, I will.

I will buy.

How much, then, you're at this museum.

What's going on in this museum?

How's this get you to

Nick Ross: university?

a really amazing museum director
who, who, what's in the museum?

Sorry?

What's in the museum?

Oh, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a
great, Manchester City Art Gallery

is one of the great collections
of prera flight paintings.

Okay.

It's Manchester City Art Gallery.

Yeah.

And, and the director there, a guy called
Tim Clifford, said, listen, please don't

come and work for an afternoon or a day
a week like most volunteers, because it's

difficult to find things for people to do.

come and work full-time.

If you're young, come and work
full-time, and I promise I'll

buy you lunch every Monday.

And and I didn't, I didn't really
realize, until much later in life how

valuable that was cuz it meant I had
an hour with this supremely ambitious

man and he would ch chat about what
I was doing and what he was doing.

And I learned so much from him.

He mentored you basically.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and also I now realize that
in that sort of position, lunch

is a really valuable tool lunch.

And he was giving me one of his
five lunches a week, so he was

giving up a lot to mentor me.

Rupert Isaacson: And you have
now reminded me that, so, for

readers, art History abroad, which
is which is Nick's, company, which

we're gonna go into in a minute.

One of the things that everybody
who's ever done anything connected

with this incredible company, which.

Has affected people's
lives around the world.

there, there are people in power around
the world who know art history abroad

and the art history abroad lunches.

and the power of those lunches is
very interesting that, this lunch

thing to some degree begins there.

Yeah.

even to the point that, our, our dear
mutual friend, Tom Parsons, who I

hope to get on here as well, did you
invent this or did he invent this?

that, the cure for depression
is to take a song with the word

love in the title and replace the

Nick Ross: word love with the word lunch.

That's more Tom than That's that.

I think that's Tom.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: It's good.

I tried it.

It works.

It works completely.

Nick Ross: every time I feel
about, can you gimme an example?

Can

Rupert Isaacson: you, yeah.

I wanna know what lunch is.

I want you to show me.

I feel so passion about this,
you know, that, brilliant.

Yeah.

to you bear leave in lunch after all.

Nick Ross: Okay.

Lunch.

We do.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Lunch.

Lunch We do.

All you need is lunch.

Yep.

So there's something in
innately cheerful about lunch.

Is something innately
optimistic about lunch.

Yes.

Yeah.

But, and as we know, innately cheerful.

Yeah.

It, it's, it's where deals are made.

because you're

Nick Ross: not winding, you know,
my, my dad's victims on this.

Tell me, the, his, okay.

Robert Woodward, another big figure
in our lives said, lunch is not

lunch unless you have a glass of wine.

Anything if no glass of wine,
anything less is a snack.

Yes.

Okay.

And

Rupert Isaacson: Robert Woodward
again for readers, I wish we could

have Robert Woodward on this show.

because in terms of one of
the great self actualizes of

Western history, he stands out.

those of us who knew him, and
we'll, we'll talk about him a bit,

hopefully, maybe you'll talk about
him, Nick, cuz he, he's obviously

very relevant to this story.

But meanwhile, you are being,
you are being mentored by this,

very amazing, museum director.

Even though you've, you're living in a bed
seat, you're, you're taking some pictures.

You're working as a, as a, as a volunteer.

his name again is

Nick Ross: Tim Clifford.

Timothy Clifford.

Rupert Isaacson: Tim.

Tim Clifford.

Did he, then, what did he go on to

Nick Ross: do?

he then became director of
National Galleries of Scotland.

And, and he was, he was kind of the,
the, the best national, you know, he

should, he, it would've been lovely
if he got the V N A or the National

Gallery, or the Met in New York.

All, all of which, he was
touted for at different times.

but it is quite a tr controversial figure.

and, and he's sort of, I, I always
rather feel that he's the best

museum director of a major, major
national museum that we never had.

Okay.

Okay.

I think he, he was, he
was very, very good.

and I was, you know, I was very
lucky to spend time with him.

And, for example, he would give me,
so he would give me, display cases.

He'd say, what's in, what do you
find interesting in the collection?

Cause I knew the basement, I knew all
of the stuff that wasn't on display.

Okay.

He said, find me something by next week.

That you want, you want to talk to me
about something that's never been seen.

And Dan, there, there was some something,
you've probably seen them there.

The, the bone ships, Napoleonic
ships or sort of Nelson,

Rupert Isaacson: made
by the prisoners of war.

Yeah.

In the, the French Napoleonic prisoners
of war in the internment campus in the uk.

I have seen some of those, yes.

Yeah.

So

Nick Ross: he's in makes detail.

Yeah, he's, he said, I came back and
I said, oh, I'm interested in this.

And he said, great.

Okay.

I'll give you two display
cases in the main gallery.

but from, you know, six weeks from now.

So, you know, and, and it's up to you.

It's up to you to curate it, tell people
about it, write about it, whatever.

And he just gave me
that, that is a problem.

Rupert Isaacson: And so he
started basically grooming

you to become a curator.

Why did he take such a shine to you?

What, what, what was going, did, did he do
this kind of with every intern that came.

Nick Ross: No, no, I think, I think, you
know, he was, he was just, no, I dunno.

He, he, he, I knew he, I, I, the
reason I kind of got in the door was

that, he had worked a very old cousin
of, of minus man called Trench Cox,

after whom we named the scholarship.

And, and, and, Trenchard
was the museum director when

Tim Clifford was a young man.

And so when I subsequently wrote to
Tim Clifford and said, I'm a cousin of

Trench Cox, you may remember, that was,
I think that possibly opened the door.

I dunno,

Rupert Isaacson: perhaps Bob perhaps
to the initial say, okay, I'll give

it, I'll give the kid a, a shot.

But he didn't have to go the extra mile.

And, and have you begin to curate things?

Nick Ross: No.

No.

And by, and by that stage, one
of the other jobs he gave me was

to, to organize, The friends of
the Manchester City Art Gallery.

So this, this, this, you know, if
you like a membership, I used to

organize events for them, and I think
he go, you know, they went well.

So I think he, he quite liked me for that.

Is that the story of the cheetahs?

Oh yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Tell us
the story of the cheetah.

Okay.

Drum roll everybody.

The story of

Nick Ross: the cheetahs.

Yeah.

Okay.

So, okay.

I've gotta be careful.

So, so, so there are the, at
Manchester, there's the, there's the

very, there's now very famous Stubbs,
18th century painter called Stubbs.

Who's for, who is, who's better
known for, for painting horses.

But Stubbs did at one point a, a picture
of two cheetah and two, two Moors,

two, handlers, dressed beautifully
in turbines and, and, north African

Rupert Isaacson: dress tame cheetah
being used for coursing for hunting.

Yes.

As they used to be used in the
courts of Asia and the Middle

East, right?

Yeah.

Nick Ross: And sorting.

Great picture.

Sort of, eight 12 feet
square, something like that.

And Tim Clifford bought it.

And, and it's one of the, it's,
it's a, you know, and this was

what he was really good at.

He was really good at finding pictures
that had otherwise missed people's

attention and buying them in anyway,
so they were, they raised the money,

they bought this picture and they
were gonna have the big opening.

And Tim got him in those days what was
probably the best caterers in Manchester.

And these, these two fantastic caterers
came in and they looked at the pictures

and they, they looked at the contents
of the bit and they said, boys, we have

got to have, Ethiopians as the waiters.

And I don't think anybody would get
away with this now, I have to say.

But, but there's another era.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So there was caviar, there was, there
were these, Ethiopian men, beared to the

waist wearing great pantaloons and so on.

And he hired two Cheetah.

Of course he did.

Of course he did.

And, and it was, it was
due on a, on a Monday night.

And, and the la the Manchester is, is,
is a, a fantastic area of the world.

It's brilliant, amazing city.

And, the, it was bang in the
middle of the minors strike.

So in English history, British
history, it was at a point when there

was such social division, fostered,
let's say by, by Margaret Thatcher.

And, and a clash of the unions
and the clash of ideologies.

And, if you can imagine the.

The, the, the, the left
wing counselors in the town

Rupert Isaacson: hall across the
Yeah, it was class war, basically.

Full on

Nick Ross: class war.

Yeah.

And, and it was like the battleship
Kin, they, they stormed the building

and, and I was upstairs, so people

Rupert Isaacson: with pitchforks
and and torches outside,

Nick Ross: roaring in and rushing
up the stairs where they were met.

Halfway up the steps by all
of the conservative counselors

who were in the party.

And there was this handbag swinging,
you know, fy casts, lots of wrestling

in that slightly sort of drunk,
posh English way of doing it.

And, falling

Rupert Isaacson: down the
stairs in Tweed jackets.

Yeah.

Nick Ross: Tugging of shirts, everything.

Anyway, the battle continued upstairs
and, and, lots of pushing and shoving.

And then at one point, somebody fell
backwards into a plinth holding a,

sporting an amazing Barack sculpture.

By a man called Algar Algar,
who's a sort of pupil of benini.

And this thing wobbled.

And you probably know that sensation
if, if you tap, you tap something and,

and whatever is unsecured on top will
wobble and, and, and you know that

it's probably best not to interfere.

And, and, and, you
can only watch, you can

Rupert Isaacson: only watch in Ara.

Nick Ross: Yeah.

And, and anyway, instead of settling
back down, there came a dreadful

point when all of us realized
because the fight had stopped.

There was silence in the room
as we all watched this wobble

and, and it started to go.

And, and this was priceless.

And into that space left, one of
the waiters who, who like a diving

superman, but without a shirt
on, dived across the, a great.

Saved this thing.

Wow.

Yeah, no, it was a great night.

It was a great night.

Rupert Isaacson: Eh, then did all, did
the counselors that had tried to storm

the party then accept a drink and Yeah,
it all gone down after that and that

Nick Ross: brought everybody,

Rupert Isaacson: everyone was mates again.

Yeah.

No.

And the cheaters, how did they far,

Nick Ross: you know, they, they
kind of, nobody kind of took

any notice of that anymore.

It was, the party had
created its own drama.

Ah.

Rupert Isaacson: there
are, there are parties.

And parties.

That was a party.

Nick Ross: Yeah.

That was a great party.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: okay, so you, you
are there at the, at the museum now.

For how long?

How long do you

Nick Ross: stay there for?

For a year and then, and then, but,
but, but, but it did its thing you see,

because I wanted to get to university
and, and, and so off the back of that,

that, that being at the museum, I got
an interview at, at University of Visa

Sanger to go and read History of Art.

Okay.

Okay.

So they saw me for an interview, and
then during the interview I didn't

really have, you know, a lot to go on.

Not in terms of, results or
qualifications, but they, they, in

those days, and I think they still
do a bit bit now, as quite often

you'll just show somebody photographs
of artifacts or things and, and

say, you know, tell me about it.

And, and, and it's a good system
and you're trying to register

somebody's visual acuity.

And, anyway, I was shown a photograph
of a painting, that I didn't know

what it was, wh when it was painted,
and I didn't know who it was by.

and I didn't even really know the
subject, but I knew where it was.

And, and so I told this to a man called
Eric Furney who was interviewing me.

I said, I.

Can't tell you anything about it,
but I'll tell you where it is.

And he said, oh, right, where is it?

And I said, oh, well, you go to Florence
and you go to the biggest square in

Florence and there's a, there's a
building in there with a huge, great

tower, I dunno what it's called.

But anyway, you go in there and you go in
through the courtyard and you go to the

staircase, you go out three flights of
stairs and there's a door on your left.

You go in that door and you're in a
so great hall, and you take a a right,

and you go to the right backhand
corner and there are some steps.

You go up there and it's a small room
and it's the first painting on the left.

And you remember this from
when you were seven years old?

Yeah.

And, because it's a, it's a, it's a, it's
a study for a guy called Francesco Mechi.

And, and I was, and it is, and
it's, it's hard to get into.

And my dad got permission to get in there.

And so we looked at, and, and now I
know it's a, it's a story of Perus Ndro

and, and it's the mythological reason
why we had have red Coral, cuz Perus,

when fighting Andromeda or fighting for
Andromeda, is fighting a great dragon.

And he whips out Medusa's head and to
turn the dragon stone and he puts the

head down, having turned the dragon stone
and blood dribbles out of the neck, the

severed neck of Medusa's head and dribbles
into the sea and turns red and solidifies.

And that's how he get,
despite the fact that

Rupert Isaacson: he's been
carrying this stripping head

around for quite a long time.

It's stripped on other things, but

Nick Ross: doesn't seem to
have, yeah, he probably left all

sorts of things, but, but that's

Rupert Isaacson: why we have red
poppies and red Yeah, red rocks.

So

Nick Ross: anything red?

That's where we have it.

Okay.

Ah, well that's perfect.

That's, yeah.

Put it on somebody's pullover.

But, but, but as a result of that, Furney
said, well, if you can remember that,

you can, you can, you can come here.

Rupert Isaacson: And why did that
picture stand out so much for you?

Nick Ross: Oh, I think it was
because my dad told me the story.

I just happened to know.

I couldn't remember any of the names,
any of any, anything like that.

But

Rupert Isaacson: I couldn't remember.

It wasn't, it wasn't the
image so much as the story.

Nick Ross: Yeah.

And that was what my
dad was really good at.

Rupert Isaacson: Well, I mean
that, that's something which I'd

say marks out what you've done.

So again, just for listeners back
in the day, I was lucky enough

to, teach a couple of history,
sessions on some of Nick's,

epic journeys around healthy, the best.

yes.

I dunno how we survived.

but what I can tell you is that the
story surrounding each painting, each

sculpture, each building, each quarter of
the city that Nick and his people would

take us to, would come magically alive
in a way that you can't say to a God.

You can't say teacher, you can't say.

And it's not, there's
anything wrong with those.

And it's not that those can't be
fascinating, but story and Mythos

story as its own art form is
normally, separated from visual arts.

It's normally the, the, the, the
power of the visual art has a story.

They talk about the story.

They say in this cigar painting, he's
talking about this and the story is

this, but really what we want you to
look at is his amazing composition or

his amazing use of color or this or this.

and for that reason, I've often
found art, his, the way people

present art history a bit boring
rather than the Game of Thrones.

Who was boning who, who was killing who,
who was torturing who and therefore why

this street looks like it does, or, or
why this painting hangs on that particular

war because somebody did this, something
outrageous and funny and cruel and

bananas and whoa, that's interesting.

And I think that you
have to have a special.

Talent for this.

and you know, some people put this
down on the printed form and other

people tell it as oral history.

And one of the things which I think
really stands out with art history abroad

is it's really the art of oral history,
in our modern day in a way that I don't

think I've seen outside of some of the
indigenous areas that I've worked in,

where they passed mythologies on that way.

So, okay.

You are, you are off to university.

I meet you because, you know,
you are the cousin of someone

I was at university with.

There's Oh, yes.

Yeah.

Marion.

Marion, yeah.

There's, there's drunkenness, there's
hilarity, there's the usual university

stuff when you come to visit Marion
and you and my friend Tom become chums

because of a mutual love of art history.

He's doing art history as well.

At what point?

Do you become a hha art history abroad and
start taking people and revolutionizing

the idea of the grand tour?

How do you go from that student
to that person making your

Nick Ross: lesson doing this?

so I started doing a, I
started doing a PhD after I

finished, after I got my degree.

And, , and I've just realized, Ruth,
that, I've got, if, if you can, if,

and I may stick out on the recording.

There's the, there's the dog
at my feet snoring and, right

Rupert Isaacson: now cuz I can hear
my dog through the, through the door.

Right.

Okay.

Okay.

And I'm hoping that's not coming
into the , Well, it may, it

Nick Ross: may, it may show,

Rupert Isaacson: does that
show the power of oral history?

If we can send, if we can send
your dog to sleep, then you

know, you can tell a story.

Nick Ross: Yeah.

No, it's, it's a, it's a pug called Doug.

And, and the thing is that he, he
finds enough di difficult enough

breathing anyway, but when he
is asleep, it's really noisy.

And if I put him out of the
door, he'll make so much bloody

noise trying to get back in.

Yes.

That it's actually easier
just to put up with

Rupert Isaacson: him.

So, passively resistance, I think
I, I sadly I can't hear him now.

All the now all the, now all the, we
can, can you do it, can you give us

a quick impression before you go on

Nick Ross: to just leave him to it?

Listen, not coming
through on my microphone.

No, he's not.

I know he is just stopped.

You'll have to listen anyway.

Can you give us

Rupert Isaacson: just a quick,
give us your version of it

quickly before you go on.

Nick Ross: Oh, God, I can't even,
it's so it's, I haven't got a cold.

If I hadn't cold, I, I could do it.

It's right up here in the, in

Rupert Isaacson: the sinus.

Yeah.

Anyway.

Oh, well, we'll have to,
we'll have to imagine it.

Okay.

So you, you get your degree, you
get, now you're on to do your PhD.

Yeah.

Nick Ross: So, so do doing the
PhD and, , and I'm going backwards

and forwards to, to do research.

What do you think your PhD on?

It, well, officially it was
on, an quarian studies in

early 17th century Rome.

Okay.

But what it's, what it is really
is it's about a man called Kapok.

And, but the important thing
is that he's the publisher of

Galileo, Galileo's Treatises.

I see.

And that's a risky thing to be,

Rupert Isaacson: that's
a risky thing to you.

That gets you in trouble
with the inquisition.

Nick Ross: I should think.

Yeah, but he was also papa
secretary to Urban the aids.

Okay.

So he is got a foot in, in
both corners, and that makes

him fundamentally interesting.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

And so when they tortured Galileo,
did they not torture his publisher

because his publisher could say, well,
I don't, this doesn't necessarily

reflect the views of the publisher.

Disclaimer.

Yeah.

Nick Ross: That sort of thing.

Yeah.

Okay.

That's why

Rupert Isaacson: we
have these disclaimers.

Nick Ross: Got it.

Yeah.

And, and, oh, now I can hear your doc.

Yeah, that was

Rupert Isaacson: a good one, isn't it?

It was a very good one.

Yeah.

Very good.

Nick Ross: so, so anyway, so no, it's just
that he, he, KA commissioned, people

like Pusa and Salvador Ross and all
sorts of really interesting artists and

period to go off and draw antiquities.

Okay.

And, and geological specimens
and flora, fauna, citrus

Rupert Isaacson: fruit.

So basically he, he's commissioning the
anti ecclesiastical arts and sciences.

Yes.

And even to some degree the metaphysical
ones, cuz we know Pusa, had his foot in

the pagan, door as well to some degree
in the sort of preason Rosa Crucian.

Therefore, all of these things
will get you locked up by

the inquisition and worse.

Yes.

And you've got the, the popes, what is he

Nick Ross: to the pope people secretary?

Yeah, the papa secretary

Rupert Isaacson: is
commissioning these people.

Yeah.

Fascinating.

Nick Ross: Okay.

It's, it's like, I dunno
what, what, what would it be

in US terms, but certainly in.

in the cabinet office, in, in UK terms,
if somebody was in the cabinet office.

Yeah.

so your major, major, dip, yes.

Rupert Isaacson: You'd be like,
you'd be like a permanent secretary.

Nick Ross: Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Exactly.

That's it.

Rupert Isaacson: okay, so you're
doing, so doing, you're doing your

PhD in, in 17th century Roman?

Yes.

Minister.

Yes.

And do you then go on and finish this PhD?

Nick Ross: No.

cause because, the, with with,
somebody called Donna, it's a, it's

very largely her, her, her achievements.

So I helped her a bit, found
a huge archive and, and

when we made that, Public.

It changed the, the, it changed the rule.

It changed the game really because
the, the whole idea of a PhD is to find

something that nobody else knows about.

Certainly for, for a British
PhD, cuz it has to be a real

contribution to knowledge.

So, it's not, it's a, and and the
trouble was that others, other

academics, much greater figures
than me were taking an interest in

the same field and then publishing.

And that what that would do is it
would take a large body of my research

and turn it not from being a chapter
in my PhD to being a footnote.

Okay.

Because I, I would effectively
be a footnote to somebody else's

research as opposed to You were ga

Rupert Isaacson: basically.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

And how, how far into
your PhD was, was this?

Three years.

So again, that moment of despair probably.

Nick Ross: Oh, yeah.

But, but yes.

And the thing is that if Donatella could
read, could read Latin, like, reading

the, the Times, you know, she, she,
and she was a friend of me, I presume.

Yeah.

And, the most remarkable,
remarkable mind.

And so, and, and I, and
I wasn't good enough.

Quite simply, I, my Latin, my
Italian wasn't good enough.

And I would never, I would never, you
know, it was pointed out to me by a

very nice guy at the British Museum
that in the nicest possible ways,

he said, he said, Nick, you, you're
not, you're just not good enough.

You're not bright enough.

and you will never keep up.

And he was absolutely right.

But there

Rupert Isaacson: are lots of
people out there getting PhDs

who don't speak fluent Latin.

So he, he, he meant just in this

Nick Ross: field that, yeah, that
what I needed was, was to be able

to really pretty, pretty tricky
documents really, really quickly.

Okay.

And I couldn't do it.

Rupert Isaacson: So at
that point, do you give up.

Nick Ross: Sorry, at that point.

At that point, do you give up?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And but, but, but also by that
stage, I'd been teaching for Aha

for a couple of years because I
was, I was doing my research and I

needed money, so I taught for a hha.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So how did you discover a HHA artist?

Nick Ross: a friend mentioned it,
I can't remember who mentioned it.

And then put me in touch with Sarah
Carum, who was the original founder with

Robert Woodward, who he mentioned earlier.

Yeah.

And a guy called Rodney Portman.

Okay.

And, and the, the, there was another
partner, but they, they kind of ran

it and they ran one course a year.

And, and I was teaching on that.

And then I did some lecturing
around schools, drumming up trade

while doing my own research.

And, and, and it was a sort of more
or less balanced life and, and, And

then I, I really began to enjoy being a
generalist, as opposed to a specialist.

And that's what the, and then when
somebody said, actually, you're not clever

enough to be a specialist, I thought,
well, actually stuff being a specialist,

I'm really enjoying being a generalist.

I want to know about everything.

That's

Rupert Isaacson: a very
positive, way to look at it.

In retrospect, at the time, did you wanna
chuck yourself off a bridge or think shit?

You know, I'm here I am
again, starting again.

Here I am three years into a PhD.

I've spent all this money, I've, you
know, I, I, I've got to, you know,

and now I've got to be a generalist.

What is this?

You know, I mean, there must be,

Nick Ross: okay, so I'm sure in that
little period after lunch at about three

o'clock, In most people's lives, there is
a point at which you think to yourself,

why, why on earth am I doing this?

Yeah.

And and, and and I was having
lots of three o'clock moments

thinking, what am I, what am I doing?

Sitting in the North Library at the
British Museum trying to catalog drawings.

So I, there aren't
really very interesting.

Some of them are fascinating, but quite
a lot of the time it's rather hard work.

Yeah.

And, and, and I thought nobody,
you know, I'm not going to, I'm

not, I'm not gonna solve cancer.

I'm not going to, you know, I, me
and about six other people are really

interested in this and that's it.

Right.

And it's not gonna change the world.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

I'm not gonna bring major joy
to millions of people this way.

Nick Ross: No, no.

Or, or solve anything.

So, so do it.

Sounds dramatic to give
it up after three years.

But, but I really enjoyed the three years.

I learned a hell of a lot,
I learned a lot about how to

research and things like that.

There's lots of pluses.

I just didn't come away with a doctorate.

Rupert Isaacson: So at what
point do you flip from there to

full-time and then to running?

Aha.

Nick Ross: So, so then, then,
Robert and Sarah Kagan asked me

if I'd be a director at a hha.

And I said, great.

And I put a little bit of money in and,
then quite soon we went bust and I don't

think it was me, but it, there was,
there was a snap procession, I don't

know if you remember early nineties.

Yeah.

And Norman Lamont and
Yes, I do remember that.

Or that whole business about,

Rupert Isaacson: that's right.

When we all came out of
university and there were no jobs.

Yeah, yeah,

Nick Ross: yeah, yeah.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And, and that happened.

So a HHA ran outta students.

Got it.

We were effectively bused.

And the only way out of it was for
Sarah and me to go uns salaried for

a year, or, you know, in perpetuity.

We had no idea how long it would last.

And the, and quite by chance, a
publishing house called Studio Editions

asked if I'd write a book on Canto.

And I wrote back and I said, well, I
dunno very much about him, but, and they

said, we actually, we don't really care.

All we need is 32,000 words in six weeks.

Could you do it?

And and I did, and it was about the
only thing I've ever done on time.

And, they were so impressed.

They gave me lots of other things
to write, which I couldn't fit in.

So, Sarah wrote some of them and
then Tom Parsons wrote others.

and that kept you afloat and
that, and that sort of, we turned

it into this writing machine.

And, We weren't working closely
together, but, but I, I think between

the three or four of us, we produced,
I dunno, 8, 9, 10 books, in a year.

Rupert Isaacson: So the universe came
in just when you were thinking, okay,

here's this un unlikely way to make a
living, which is taking people on the

17th Century Grand tour and opening
their brains and minds and spirits

up to the arts and the metaphysics of
the Renaissance and classical period.

And then everything goes bust.

And then the universe says, well,
but how about becoming a writing

machine for this same thing out of
the blue in the middle of a recession?

That's very interesting.

Oh, and by the way, here's so much of
this work that you can't even cope with

it, that you're gonna have to give it to
all your mates to keep them afloat too.

Yeah.

Nick Ross: And then we are
all get, and then we Yeah.

No, the the, it's a good odd universe.

Yeah,

Rupert Isaacson: but I mean, if, if
that's not, if that's not providence

at work, I don't know what is.

And if that's not.

Fortune favoring the brave, I dunno
what is, because, again, just back to

that thing, the listeners, you know,
that's the whole point really of this,

of this podcast is, those of us who
were brought up like me, with lots

of different passions and interests,
constantly being told you're never

gonna make a living doing that.

And that's all I've ever done is
making a living doing those things.

I love these stories when it, it's
those things where you say, out of

the blue came this series of book
contracts because I mean, getting a

book contract, we know getting a book
contract is a dash difficult thing to do.

It's not an easy thing.

You don't just go around
getting book contracts.

I'm a, I've been a writer for decades and
I don't just go around getting book pump

contracts every time I have to get one.

I have to get one from scratch.

It's a whole process.

I might not get one.

Not every idea that I have gets accepted,
even though I've written bestsellers.

It's just not like that.

It's, you know, it's a
business like any other.

And, So for that to drop
out of Providence, like

that is interesting to me.

So clearly you guys had made
some sort of leap of faith.

So in the meantime, you
continue to run the business

while then writing these books.

Is that right?

And yeah.

Nick Ross: Yeah.

And then, and then at, at some
point we try and sell the business,

but it, it's got no assets.

It's got, it's only got goodwill.

And so the accountants said, look,
there's enough room for one of you

to do it, but, but it will, you know,
so, so Sarah who had been at the

beginning, was offered and she, she
said that she didn't want to run it.

And I said, well, if nobody else
wants to run it, I'll give it a go.

I had no, no children, no girlfriend,
no wife, no responsibilities.

So I thought, well, let's,
let's just give it a try.

I seem to

Rupert Isaacson: remember actually
this jogs a memory that you were

sleeping in a corridor at this point.

Nick Ross: Yeah, no, I, I then,
I then moved to live with my

brother in Devon in the corridor.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, that's right.

I remember the corridor.

Nick Ross: Yep.

Yeah.

And the, the, the desk a few places.

Yeah.

And the desk was, by a sheet
pen in one of his bands.

So quite often if I was on the blower
on the phone, you know, you had the,

the, the, the barring of sheep in
the background and stuff like that.

Not, not unlike dog now.

Yeah.

Really,

Rupert Isaacson: really, it's bucolic.

you could sort of a po sound like,
aesthetic to the, to the thing.

Yeah.

Just a little church bell
in the distance perhaps.

at what point did it start working

Nick Ross: for you?

Ooh.

Rupert Isaacson: and how, how
did you get it to start working?

Nick Ross: Oh, well, I think,
I think, we diversified.

It started looking at
schools, doing school strips.

To be honest, we, I didn't have any
money for advertising or marketing.

So the, the only thing,

Rupert Isaacson: and this is
all pre-social media, right?

Oh yeah,

Nick Ross: yeah.

And and, so we thought, we thought
the only thing to do is to, or

I thought, just run everything.

So I even one trip, I remember a
family, it was a trip that was

advertised to go to, Florence, and
there was only one couple who signed up.

And, so I said, I rang them about
two weeks before and I said, look, I'm

really sorry, but it's only you and me.

I'll, I'll give you your money
back, you know, it's fine.

And they said, no, no,
we're sharing a bed.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Anyway, they said, that's
fine, that's great.

In fact, we'd much prefer it
that way anyway, it turned out

that they were, really very
significant, manufacturers in Europe.

and, from a huge family.

And, and I have quite simply lost
count of the hun, how many hundreds of

thousands of pounds of trade over the
last 30 years we've had through them.

I, in fact, one of their
grandchildren or great grandchildren

I took on a trip only last week.

so, so, again, you know, universe,
whatever you like, you know, just,

just plays into your hands sometimes.

And, I didn't wanna let them down.

and they didn't, and they wanted to do
something exclusive, and they got it.

And, and yet it turned into a,
a really big story in the end.

And I think your, your, your overall point
is that history is a series of paradox.

is, is, the, the, the, the, the, the,
the trouble with life is that we tend

to try and make things neat and tidy.

And, and also the problem with text is
that, and that's why I haven't, I've

haven't written anything for a long time,
is that text is inevitably sequential.

Music fortunately is less sequential.

Our thoughts are certainly not sequential.

We tend to think of several
things all at the same time.

And, and we feel several
things all at the same time.

And the problem with text is that it
means that everything has to be laid

out in an orderly way, but, but actually
the way life works, the way we operate

isn't in straight lines and doesn't one
and one thing doesn't follow another.

It's a series of threads jumbled up in
a, in a sort of rather, delicious mess.

And that's half the fun.

That's, that's the point.

and, and I don't think a usual academic
training of arranging everything into

logical lines is necessarily very helpful.

It's just a, an effective way of teaching.

But actually, if you are going to be
in the position of managing, events

around you or people, or marshaling,
others to try and go forward, the

best way to do it is in a mess.

Because that's the way we all think to, to

Rupert Isaacson: find your order through

Nick Ross: chaos.

Yes.

So when, if I give somebody
responsibility, I don't, I want, I want,

I, I'm quite happy with it being messy.

Do you see what I mean?

I, because, because that
is a sort of a reflection of

the way we all behave anyway.

I don't want somebody, because it's
imagination comes out of mess outta chaos.

Primal chaos doesn't come outta,

Rupert Isaacson: you know,
I'm just thinking, you know.

Here you are.

why would one want to send one's
young people out on a journey apart

from the educational aspect of it
through, for example, your company.

What life lessons are they going to learn?

But I, I think that that's exactly it.

And I think that that's what people
were aiming for 300 years ago on the

grand tour too, was to understand
the complexities of life, understand

the ambivalences of life, understand
that things are not black and white.

Understand that things are paradoxical and
how to become comfortable with discomfort

and can you find ordering chaos?

Can you find, entertaining chaos
when there's too much order?

Can you dance that dance in between?

And that dance of life is quality
of life and the difference between

mere survival and thriving.

Yeah.

and that's what producers culture,
that's what producers are.

That's what, you know, when you, when you
said, well, you know, I had to give up

the PhD, but what's the point of being a
specialist in something that isn't going

to really positively affect the lives of.

Many, but to go out and get
those sorts of life lessons.

And I know that some of the people
who have gone on your trips over

the years have ended up in public
office and as you know, captains

of industry and that sort of thing.

And I would want those people cuz
they affect my life to have some

sort of humanistic perspective.

and this idea of the humanities
is something which you go

and study academically.

I don't think you can, you, you, you can
say, well that piece of art is called

that anymore than you can learn history
by saying Battle of cause in 1415.

Well, okay, but why was
it and what did it mean?

Was it just some sort of trade
skirmish or did it actually affect.

You know, the way we think about
things right now is that why we've

remembered it and we didn't remember
the one that happened the week

before, which, which got forgotten.

Someone has to open one's eyes to this.

Nick Ross: Yeah.

Yeah.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, Nick It seems
to me, from my experience with AHA,

that I experienced a great sense of
freedom when I attended the course, and

I Heard this from the other people on
the course, and I've been hearing this

ever since, and it's counterintuitive.

You wouldn't have thought
it's paradoxical again.

We talked about paradox, that
going to see art and experiencing

art in this way gives one freedom.

You'd think freedom is walking in the
mountains or flying an airplane or riding

a horse or something, but yet there
seems to be a freedom that gets unlocked.

In the human imagination, which is
our greatest freedom through the

physical journeys, through the art.

And I just wondered if you could
speak to that a little bit.

What have you noticed?

What have you, how has
this happened for you?

And then how have you, what made you
then think, Oh yeah, I could, I could,

I could give this to other people.

Because it's, it's not something
that people would normally

think of as a route to freedom.

Nick Ross: Interesting.

Okay.

So, so yes if you, if you take, take
the point that, you know, what we do

at Art History Abroad usually happens
after people have finished one big

section of their formal education.

So they're 18 or 19, all of which
is about doing the intellectual

gymnastics, in order to pole vault
through examinations to matriculate

and, and get onto university.

We have an opportunity which is to
run a course which is essentially

educational, but it has no reading list,
it has no essays, it has no marking,

it has no examination at the end of it.

It is learning quite simply
for the love of learning.

Now, of course, I can't, in a way, I
can't really say that on a website because

people would never buy our courses.

Because it's, you know, that sounds
a little bit watery, let's say.

But to me, it's a very real thing.

And I think it is for anybody who's
experienced teaching in that way and

being at the receiving end of it.

And the reason I think it's so is that
the very, the very point about being

on site is an all round experience.

You're getting there.

You're seeing things in life size as
opposed to on a tiny image on a phone.

There are the smells, there's the
sound, there's the stepping around other

people who may be praying in a church
trying to do things to avoid mass.

And all of those things.

So you are super aware of
everybody else and your

environment when you're doing this.

And then you get in front of the
thing that you've, the, the, the,

the, the quest you get there.

And at that point, it's can be thrilling,
especially if it's a really well known

thing that people have heard about.

And, and so to finally get there to the
end of it is, as I say, it's thrilling.

It's really exciting.

People get really excited, burst
into tears every so often, but

oddly enough, people cry more
in Rome than anywhere else.

But, but that, that that, that I think
is because it's a uniquely emotional

place for so many reasons, but.

But it's partly quest and you
get there and it's thrilling.

It's really exciting to be in that space.

And then if as a teaching experience
and learning experience, it's not

all about the delivery of didactic
information of being told the dates

of when it was done and all of that.

All of that can be fed in.

at different points.

But it's not as if you start there.

It's a case of, well, where's the
best place to be looking at this from?

How, actually, how big it is?

It says here that it should be so big.

Is it that big?

Or, you know, pacing out a building
looking at it from different angles.

If it's a picture that, let's say, should
be seen from a devotional kneeling point.

And so often that's the case that you
know, if I know there's a, there's

a wonderful painting by Pontormo
in Santa Felicità in Florence, and

it's, and it's one of the weirdest.

paintings in the 16th century in Italy
and people either love it or hate it.

It's the great marmite painting because
it has really lurid colors and and we

do I think I think Humans and society
go through phases of favoring certain

colors point and and actually funnily
enough this Pontormo Really offended

people because it's lilacs and it's
light pinks and, and in the 80s,

early 80s, nobody liked those colors.

Everything was primary colors,
and it was really interesting.

Gladioli as a flower became the,
you know, the sort of demonic plant.

You know, there were things that
people wouldn't put in their

garden because of the color.

Sorry, I'm off on one there.

But, but, but the Pontomo's
deposition usually puts people off.

It's in a private chapel
to a family called Capone.

And so it's behind a grill.

And just every so often the sacristan
is there and, and they'll let you

go in and they'll unlock it for you.

And it's great because then you can
kneel down in front of the altar.

And at that point the painting
suddenly makes sense, the composition

of it and all of the rest.

And it's essentially about the
absolute tragedy of somebody

so young and so marvelous as
Christ dying and being killed.

And they're literally being put on
your head and you're you know, given to

you the way the painting is composed,
and it's all in the colors as well.

And, and what you're doing is you're
kneeling on the plate that is lifted to

get to the crypt underneath the chapel
where all of your ancestors are buried.

So Christ in his death is being passed
to you and you're thinking this is

awful How much did he suffer to make a
fundamental point about love to all of

the rest of us and and And I'm remembering
his death, and I'm thinking about the

death of my dearly beloved on this spot.

So the moment you get into that
place, everything makes sense.

And it's a, it's, it's a spiritual,
emotional, visual, auditory the sense

that you smell the, you know, you can
hear, you can, you can smell the whiff

of, incense from the morning's mass,
all of those things come together.

And you say liberating.

Well, if what it's doing is just
it is an explosion of realization,

emotion and sensory invasion,
which is just overwhelming.

It's, it's, it's absolutely wonderful.

And so that's why Information with,
with things, you know, that after

all of that, once, once people
said, Oh my God, now I get it.

I really understand this.

Then you can say, Oh, and by the way,
it was, you know, 1525 and people

call this Manor Est and, and there's
things that are wrong with that term.

So you can then talk about language
and how we academically or, or, or

culturally have organized things
and the rights and wrongs of that.

But the main thing is to get
across the emotional, the

emotional aspects of it first.

And you, and there are loads of
places that you can really do that.

Of course, museums and galleries
are, are a problem because it's

one thing after the next on a wall.

And, and it's, and you end up having
to describe where it was in order to

try and get, to summon the muse in
order to get people to that place.

But the great advantage of
things, seeing things on site.

Is that you don't have to summon
that muse, which depends on one's

ability to describe it's there
and it's evident and it's real.

Rupert Isaacson: It's
interesting you talk about quest.

And it seems that, you know, we
know that the hero's journey, the

universal story is always quest.

And we know that we are the speaking ape.

They say we're the thinking ape,
Homo sapiens sapiens, but everything

with the brain thinks, but we're
the only ones with the larynx.

We speak, we create poetry,
we have language in that way.

And healing and story, you know,
the shamanic healing process, you

go to the shaman with your story.

They go into the spirit world,
get a series of instructions,

it's effectively a story.

Come back, give you a story,
and then a new story is created.

But it's the same when
you go to the doctor.

He's always my leg.

It's a story.

The doctor delves into their knowledge.

Oh, leg stuff comes
out with another story.

Creates a new story for your leg.

Hunting and gathering is who we are.

And story is a way of organizing that.

And it seems that really hearing
you speak, you're, this is

the again, back to paradox.

You think something as heavily cultural
as art and architecture would be so far

removed from hunting and gathering that
it would be artificial in the brain and

an artificial experience and therefore
of limited use to Say our neuroscience,

which would develop through our hunter
gatherer ancestry, but hearing you speak

about that aspect of quest and then the
sensual experience, not just the smell

of the incense and the kneeling and the
looking up at the thing, but also, as you

say, to get there, you had to get there,
you have to hunt, you have to arrive, you

have to take a journey, which is a story,
it just in order to get to that place.

And then, of course, you've got to
do it in, you're doing it in a group.

As you would when you hunt or gather,
and now you're hunting and gathering

experience and information together and
sharing this, what from a neuroscience

point of view immediately springs into
my mind there is Oh, axons and dendrites.

So, the axons being the main stems and
branches of the brain cells that are

reaching out to try and make synaptic
connections with other brain cells that

we do this all the time until we die.

Otherwise our brains atrophy and then
the dendrites being the twigs that.

Or like the root system that then makes
contact with the other root systems

and then myelination the fusing of
those neural pathways happens that this

seems to be how our brains are wired.

And then you talked about question
and people bursting into tears.

Then I'm thinking, Oh, that's dopamine.

And that's the endorphins kicking
in of having made the physical

journey to get there of the exercise.

And then the serotonin
of the group connection.

And the shared experience and
the oxytocin of the feeling

of emotional shared support.

All of those happy hormones, those
are the four happy ones coming

together in that one moment.

What could in a strange way be
more natural for the brain, but

one wouldn't necessarily know that.

When one looks at the words art
history together one thing I have

a real, I have a question for you.

When we were young, 5, 000 years
ago, when mastodon still bellowed to

mastodon across the primeval swamp.

You and I were coming out of you,
Nick and me were coming out of a

world that was pre cell phones.

And to some degree, pre computers.

When we were at university,
we didn't use them.

We wrote everything longhand and we and.

The people that were on say gap years
going around and having these experiences

that you're talking about traveling
and exploring were coming with brains

that were more naturally prepared.

This seems to me to have changed.

Have you noticed a difference in
the type of brain that's coming

in front of you on these trips?

And if so, how are those brains
impacted by the experiences that?

your courses provide?

Nick Ross: Okay.

So, so how, how did they arrive?

I, I

okay.

So on the, on the one, on the one hand,
it's, it's very easy to take a pop at

the internet and, and the digital age.

And, and I'm, I'm, I'm guilty of
probably thinking like as many, many

people in older people might, which
is that, you know, the, the, the last

generation the upcoming generation,
they're, you know, they're, they're

somehow different and something is
lost from the experience before.

And on the one hand, I think that it is
marvelous that you can find information

really quickly, you know, all of those
that, you know, that capacity to have

an idea to have a question a query, and
then find an answer almost immediately.

Is is brilliant.

It's and that is a really
good building block.

You know, that's that's
that's really exciting.

Or, you know how to do something,
you know, you know, you

introduce a student to an idea.

Or a book and they can go off and find it.

They can go off and find that film that
you think, oh, that's really relevant.

You'll really enjoy this.

And you don't have to wait
two months to go and see it.

It's there.

You can watch it this evening.

So all of those sorts of things are
really big and positive and good.

The only, the only thing that I find
Is the sort of impatience that, that

because you can get things very,
very quickly, you assume everything

will arrive very, very quickly.

And I find myself becoming unbelievably
impatient and and therefore sort

of rather irritated with myself.

And, and I think the I think the,
and also the collective experience.

You sort of touched on that a moment ago,
of, of traveling and, and being together

and sort of, I do remember actually
once our good friend Tom caught me doing

this in Verona once, I deliberately made
ourselves late for a train because I

felt that the course, the group, weren't
working very well as a, as a whole.

That's interesting.

And and And we were in Verona.

We didn't have bags with us, so it was
just a day trip, but, but I suddenly said,

oh my God, we've got seven minutes to be
on a train, and we've got three quarters

of a kilometer to run to get to the train.

And and we, we all got there, everybody
helping each other, you know, and it

was you know, pulling each other on the
train as the train then pulled out and

stuff, and then we all collapsed in the
carriage hot, sweaty, and exhausted.

But...

All of a sudden, a group of
people, and Tom, I remember him

looking at me and saying, you, you,
that was deliberate, wasn't it?

And, and I, I, you know, to this day,
I'm not sure if it was just me being

half witted, or, or whether there
was a little bit of me that wanted

to create that sense of, of for all.

Okay, so, so the, the, the
business of collectively doing

things together is, has gone.

I think it's interesting that, that
personal sports have really taken off.

In the sense that, you know,
when I was younger, it was all

team sports, everything was
about being in part of a team.

And now it's about actually a lot
of sports, and the most popular

and taken up sports, I think in
Britain at the moment is jiu jitsu.

And more people are taking up that
than than than other team sports.

because they're all individuals as opposed
to groups of people taking up sport.

Anyway, again, I, I slightly digress,
but, but if I'm looking for differences

and therefore things that, the, the
very nature of AHA and traveling

and having quite a lot of autonomy.

So I'm really keen that when we set up
a course, we can do all sorts of things.

To make it wonderful and lay out a program
of great events and things like that.

But I'm really, really it's very important
to me that the tutors can, can wake up

one morning and say, do you know what?

It's an absolutely
fantastic day out there.

I think we should do this.

Or, you know, we can go and do that.

Or why don't we go and watch football?

Or that there's all sorts of things
that, that, that make the trip.

Both an adventure for them, but
crucially that the tour, the course

is an individual course, an individual
adventure for those students.

And it's not the same as the last one.

It's their course.

It was their history.

And it was their experience,
not a a usual one.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, go ahead.

I've got a question that
will follow, but go ahead.

Nick Ross: And then, and
then, then in terms of, of.

I often talk to students at the
beginning of the course about the

senses and using up the senses.

I know just a moment ago I was
talking about the Pontormo deposition

and I possibly sounded like
somebody who either understands

or believes in the resurrection.

I don't, I don't really, there's lots
of things that I like and approve

of, but, but I don't quite get the
resurrection but I suppose that's

life's great passage, but, but what
I am keen on in a spiritual sense, if

I've got a spiritual center, it's that
I really want to use up the things that

I was given, and those are my senses.

When I, I don't know to what extent
being paralyzed when I was a teenager

from the neck down had any, any, any
input on this, but I am absolutely

determined to use up all my senses.

And I've been lucky enough to do
what I've done, whereby my visual,

visual acuity is really pretty acute.

And, and I noticed things, I
see things, I, I've got a great.

maturity in my sight, if you
like, of recognition and things.

I'm a bit pissed off about my hearing.

I, you know, I can hear all right, but
I, I haven't explored sound enough.

And I really want to explore sound.

I was quite worried about my nose.

a while ago.

I used to smoke.

I loved smoking.

God, I love smoking.

But, but I stopped smoking.

And and so I started to
scent and smell much better.

Not me personally, but
the act of smelling.

So, so I, I actually spent
some time going to perfumiers

and asking, how do you smell?

What do you do?

How do you register?

What actually happens in the nose?

And now I'm, I'm I'm a
real sniff stop snob.

I go, you know, I can spot a
synthetic smell really easily.

I'm really aware of what I'm walking past.

Touch, feeling, I lost all of
that, but, but what I've got,

I've really enjoyed exercising.

Taste, I've loved food all the way
along, but what I want to do is get

to my deathbed and I'll be pissed
off if I get run over by a bus and I

haven't finished using up all of my
senses, because that is, to be honest,

the only way I can say thank you.

If I've truly.

wholly used myself up.

I've loved as much as I possibly can.

I've appreciated all of those things.

I've appreciated what my, my connection
to the rest of the world, if I can

do all of that completely at that
point, rather like a finished plate at

supper, I can say, you know, thank you.

That's, that's it.

And I'm out, but I've really enjoyed it
and I've made the absolute most of it.

Because I've been lucky
enough to be able to do that.

And so I have, I, I tend to
use Biros, pens, pencils, I

tend to use them up completely.

I'm really irritated if I lose a
pen, which is only half finished.

My pencils, I've got two or three, I've,
I've I gave one to Cosmo the other day.

My pencils become unbelievably small
until I can't use them anymore, and then I

actually tend to keep them because they're
memories, and it's slightly pathetic.

But anyway, the, the, the
point is to use oneself up.

And if I can, if we can, as a, as a group,
impart that sense of, of, of appreciation,

understanding, use of the senses to
our students, not only is it liberating

in a way that I was kind of describing
earlier on with the Pontormo, but it's

kind of an antidote to the digital world.

Or it's a supplement to the digital world.

You know, there is no way that
people should and could live going

forward without the digital world.

It's here.

But what we've got to do is to
kind of learn how to do both.

And if, if it can be a journey
in one's own development as well.

And, and as a, to a point, trying to find
some purpose in all of it, using oneself

up isn't a bad one, as far as I can see.

Rupert Isaacson: It seems to me
that what you're talking about

is teaching people how to live.

Because to, to explore, to learn, for
the love of learning, to encourage

the love of learning that's one part.

And so often, in our culture,
we celebrate the intellectual.

Or we celebrate the spiritual and
because of the church and whatever

that we inherited, that morality, we
denigrate the senses, we denigrate

the sensual, even though we spend our
entire lives trying to gratify our

senses, but we feel guilty about it.

And we're told we should
feel guilty about it.

And it's this really interesting point
that you're making about the senses

that as someone who was deprived of
your senses for a while in a way that

I think few people have experienced
to then really see their value.

And then.

That there is no separation,
of course, how could there be,

between your spirit and your mind,
your intellect and your senses.

And to make that separation perhaps
also induces a type of dementia

that's pre digital that some of
our ancestors might have felt.

So, just stay with me here.

So, for example, I have a great friend who
we did a A podcast with Jane Pike a while

ago who works very much with the nervous
system and she delved for years and

years, like decades into deep, deep yoga
and was a yogini to the point that she's

been flown all over the world, giving
courses and so on and studied in India.

And she said the problem with it for
her in the end was that there was

too much in the philosophy of it that
was about using this practice through

the body to leave the body behind.

And only go to the spiritual as if
the body was something bad or wrong in

just the same way that, you know, we've
done that with Christianity and so on.

But really, that's just seems to
be a way of controlling people.

And she said that it seemed at a
certain point that what then happened

was her body began to shut down.

And she said a lot of people she knew had
this experience that they took the yoga

to an extreme where instead of serving
the body, it began to work against it

for interesting reasons that people could
go back to that which surprised me, but

she said, no, this actually does happen.

You're talking about the senses
that as being part of the

whole and having been deprived.

You know, we think about sensory
deprivation, you know, if you go

into a room where you can't see, or
you deliberately put on a blindfold

so that you're, you can hear better
or, and people are now seeing the

value of doing that sort of thing.

I've noticed that on your.

Courses, you're absolutely right.

You expose people to taste, you expose
people to smell, you expose people to the

touch of the stone, you and not just the
touch of the stone on your hand, but the

touch of the stone on your knees or to
lie in a position on the stone to look

up at a certain painting or something
that all of that is going to again,

bring us back to the sort of hunter
gatherer route of pure functionality

within the human brain and body.

Which is sort of our original blueprint,
whether it's done by going to a place to

look at a piece of art and architecture,
whether it's by going through a forest

to look at a deer the same process
seems to happen in the brain and where

I was asking about a digital dementia.

That seems to be the catchphrase now.

You're talking about the senses
made me realize that perhaps

there's been a dementia of trying
to divorce people from the senses

that's caused such unhappiness and.

Suffering in people that it's made
us do things like invent the Spanish

Inquisition and you know, the Holocaust.

A lot of that seems to come out of
the suppression of passion and the

suppression of the census to the
point that people become so angry

that you can then control that anger.

And I'm going to make you go
and commit these atrocities.

You could argue that that's
to some degree what's going on

in Putin's Russia right now.

But I hadn't thought about it like
that until you made those points.

So, when I asked you, have you noticed
a digital dementia in the new generation

coming, when you said, ah, well, maybe
a bit, but there's all these other

good things about the digital age, I
hadn't, until you began to talk about

the sensors, I hadn't put together that
perhaps there was another dementia,

which we've suffered from for a much
longer period of time, pre digital.

And so

as you were talking to it made me think
the word came up in my mind pilgrimage.

Is that really what you're doing?

Nick Ross: Yeah, I think it's
really it's that's fascinating.

Okay, so, so, Occasionally when,
when people hear about what we do

with teenagers, they, they say, ah,
it sounds like a modern grand tour.

You know, the 18th century idea of
largely Englishmen and, and quite a

lot of Frenchmen going off on, and
Germans as well, and Goethe did it as,

you know, you go off and you travel
and, and quite often the quest was to

Italy because of Rome and Roman empire.

And, the church and so on.

And and so, yes, that was
one sort of pilgrimage.

And, and interestingly, it's
done at a stage where young

people have become independent.

They're physically and emotionally
independent enough and sexually

mature and all of those sorts
of things to be able to go off.

And, and and explore for themselves.

The same happens with
Aborigines, I, I think.

I remember reading Bruce Chatwin's
songlines and being very, very impressed

by that as a, in my twenties, and thinking
at the time that's, you know, what he's

kind of describing is not unlike the
modern gap year or, or, or pilgrimage.

In the Middle Ages and, and it's about
setting off on a journey and experiencing

all sorts of things as you go along,
and, and in a way, having an opportunity

to, to try oneself out, because after
all, until you're about 18, in the

main, you're told what to do, what to
eat, where to sleep, and all of those

sorts of things, and all of a sudden,
you can actually go and just work it

out yourself, and, and and it's both
an opportunity, but it's also a test of

oneself, you know, can I actually do this?

And I do remember feeling that very
strongly when I was 18, leaving,

leaving home and going to live in
London, I was determined not to use

connections or any other friends.

So, you know, to find my own flat,
to find my own job, to find my own.

stuff just to find out whether
actually as a person, I could work.

I do work, you know, not just work
in a functional sense, but operate

socially and all of the rest.

And so, yeah, it's a pilgrimage that I,
I think is part of the same thing, you

know, gap years, walkabout, Spartans
going off and testing themselves, you

know, young, young boys and all of that.

I think it's part of the same thing, and
yeah, and it's a, it's a pretty important

part of development for one and all.

Rupert Isaacson: The rite of passage.

Nick Ross: Yeah, yes.

I suppose rite of passage comes with...

with some tremendous challenge,
you know, the, you know, the, you

know, mortal challenge that, that
you overcome some mortal difficulty.

I don't think one needs to
overcome a mortal difficulty.

I do see it as a more sort of positive
thing of learning to appreciate yourself

and your senses, you know, there's
the whole thing of love oneself.

I've never completely fallen for
that idea, but, but learning to

use what you've got in an external
way is, is is a really good thing.

And that's, and that's a
very good connector to other

people and so on and so forth.

So, so the idea of mortal challenge,
I personally would leave to one side.

But, but setting out to try oneself out
socially and physically and sensually

is, is a really good antidote to formal
education and, and particularly as

one sets out into, into a world or
university where you hopefully will

be invited to think for yourself.

and create for yourself.

And I think that's possibly what
makes successful people within

within the workplace or for the,
if they, if they don't want to work

for anybody else, certainly to have
the creative confidence to have a,

to have a go and do your own thing.

One's own thing.

Rupert Isaacson: Do one's own thing.

I mean, that's live free, ride free.

Where do you want?

AHA to go.

What's next for you?

Nick Ross: What's next?

It, it was, you know, Art History Abroad
as a, as a title, you know, the one thing

is that I quite enjoy is that what you
start off with as a plan quite often

doesn't end up being the way it goes.

And, and the more fun thing is just
to kind of let it go where people

and, and, and circumstances lead.

And, and like all, like any
organisation, it's so much a part of.

the people who were there with
you and those you meet along

the way, and changing ideas.

And so, so Art History Abroad, it
was quite specifically not identified

either to me or to Italy and And
so, it can go anywhere, and I would

quite like it to go everywhere.

I would quite like to see it not
only in Europe, but also in India,

Japan and, and in South America.

In fact, anywhere, anywhere.

You know, I think, I think
it's applicable elsewhere.

So that's one thing, geographic
and, and an intellectual spread.

Art also, I think, as a
term, you know, what is art?

That's always been in the background.

I think, I think art itself is
a, is a floppy term and I quite

enjoy it for being loose like that.

I'd also quite like to change the
parameters or encourage the parameters

of what we do and what we think
about and the way we approach things.

I know, I remember, It's probably about
10 12 years ago, you and I talking about

the nature of, of, of what we talked
together in Florence, and, and that

it's, it's, it's, it's all kinetic and
auditory and aural all at the same time.

Now, what we were fumbling with
then, is what you've now developed

into a much more articulate
description of axons and dendrites.

Dendrites, yeah.

Dendrites.

And, and I'm interested in developing
that because that, that chimes with my

belief structure about using oneself up.

It chimes with.

the idea of, of the nature of
education being about liberation

as opposed to structure.

And stricture.

So, so that is a development.

I think would be really interesting.

So both geographic, but also because I
don't know about you, but I find teaching

and enormously emotional experience.

And and for that reason, actually, I
very, very rarely ever go and watch.

Any of our tutors simply because, you
know, I know standard practice is go

and review people and check that they're
doing what they're supposed to be doing.

In my view, I don't need to do that.

I don't want to do that.

The way I prefer to do it is to
teach the same students maybe

the next day so I can look at.

their development or I can look at
the, the the teaching capacity of

the tutor I'm interested in by their
reflection, by looking at them directly.

After all, the only important thing
is what ends up in the student.

So look at the student, don't look at
the person who's doing the teaching.

Apart from anything else, it's
embarrassing watching people teach,

or I, you know, I know that I
slightly become somebody else when

I'm teaching, and when I'm off on one,
I am altogether some somebody else.

And, and so I'd rather not pry
on anybody's personality in

that way, I'd rather just let
them be what they want to be.

So the, the, the, the, the experience
of teaching I think is hugely emotional.

I think, you know, obviously it's
different if you're in a classroom.

And I think I, I am
lost in admiration for.

people who are teaching within
schools, where there are people who

don't want necessarily to be there,
they're tied to a desk or they're in

an environment that's unsympathetic
or whatever, that is hugely difficult.

And, and before somebody can
actually deliver meaningful

knowledge and inspiration.

They've got to get over
all of these hurdles.

I'm in an amazingly, and with my
tutors and the people who work for AHA,

amazingly privileged position to be
able to walk out of the door and walk

somewhere else and say, Hey, look at this.

This is wonderful.

And it's privileged in
economically and, and physically.

And so, so I, you know, my, my, I,
I frame my view within that, you

know, teaching is a very big word.

It refers to a lot of people in
a lot of different circumstances.

But the bit that we're able to do is, is
hugely emotional, liberating for both the

person teaching and, and the recipient.

And I think I've already forgotten
the actual question that you asked me.

Well,

Rupert Isaacson: you, you actually
just answered it, emotional liberation.

I mean, and, and emotional
liberation, because, you know,

the intellect serves the emotions,
the emotion serves the intellect.

To take that to as wide a context
as possible, it's funny you use

the word abroad, because you know
the word abroad semantically simply

means out and about, you know, it
doesn't necessarily mean overseas.

And just so listeners know not
everything that AHA does is overseas,

a lot of what you do is also local.

To go abroad can mean to
walk around one's village.

One is abroad, you know, the other
word I love is the old Norman

hunting expression of enlarged.

The stag is enlarged, you know, he's
got out, he's left the ticket is

all it means, but it's, it's, he's
broken cover, but it's interesting

how words take on certain meanings.

And one of the things I've, some of
the best experiences I've had with you

as a teacher, I think have been when
you've shown me something really local.

The other day we were, I was lucky
enough to be in for the listeners

in, in Nick's Village with my kids.

And there happens to be a very, very
beautiful piece of medieval architecture

in there, which isn't the church.

It's the thing next to the church,
which is this half timbered building.

Okay, one sees a lot of half timbered
buildings, they're always charming,

they always have a nice aesthetic.

But this particular one had a
set of carvings in the In the

half timbers of a detail that
I've never seen before anywhere.

And I live in a part of Germany that's
famous for half timbered villages.

And I didn't see anything like it.

And that was 2 minutes away.

It, that feeling what I'd love to do is.

encourage people always to look
for what's close as well as

what's far when one is questing.

You also mentioned something else
which I'd like to come back to, but

I want to do this on another podcast.

I want to have you back.

Would you come back?

I've got some questions you mentioned
resurrection, you mentioned self

love, and you mentioned pilgrimage.

Pilgrimage got a bit of
a thumbs up from you.

Resurrection and self love
got question marks from you.

I'd like to...

explore those three concepts self
love, resurrection, redemption,

resurrection, and pilgrimage in a
wider context looking at it from the

brain point of view, as well as from
the physical point of view, would you

be willing to come on and do that?

Yeah, okay.

Because I think logically that's
where this conversation would go.

And I think many of us who would
listen to something like this

would have those questions.

So what I'm going to do is I'm
going to invite the listeners

to send in their questions.

What are your questions to
Nick about what he does?

What are your questions about the nature
that he's talked about of the censors?

of how the senses, the intellect,
and spirituality come together.

What do you think about self love?

What do you think about pilgrimage?

What do you think about resurrection?

Even if those are just questions,
especially if those are just questions.

And then let's kick those questions
around on round two with Nick.

Before we go, Nick,
how do people find you?

How do people book a course with you?

How do people go walk around
London with you, let alone Italy?

Or Suffolk?

Or India?

or can they also have
conversations with you online?

What are the mechanisms by which
people can contact AHA and you?

Nick Ross: Well, the key one, I suppose,
is the website is arthistoryabroad.

com.

But that will describe
some of the things we do.

But to be honest, it's that whole thing
of keeping things simple and direct,

which doesn't necessarily reflect The
complexity of other things that we do.

So, there's that, but, but I'll
ultimately write either to info at

Art History abroad or better still.

Write to nick@arthistoryabroad.com.

Rupert Isaacson:
nick@arthistoryabroad.com.

Nick Ross: Yeah, and that's Nick, NICK.

Okay.

Nick at arthistoryabroad.

com and that, and that'll
come through to me.

And, and particularly if anybody is doing
such a thing to just reference Rupert on,

on, on the email and then, and then, and
then I will leap into an action that is

unfamiliar to many people who write to me.

Anyway, so, so no, I
enjoyed hearing from people.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

I, I would, I would encourage
Listeners write to Nick, ask

him stuff, font of information.

I have learned so much from
you, Nick, over the years

that we've known each other.

Time with you is always time
beautifully spent, satisfyingly spent.

The, the, the, the, the, the
pleasure of discovery I always

have when I'm in your company is.

Something I cherish.

So thank you so much for sharing that in
a wider context here on the podcast and I

look forward to having you back for more.

Thank

Nick Ross: you.

Yeah, happily come back.

Thank you

Rupert Isaacson: very much.

All right.

Till next time.

Bye for now.

Bye bye.

Thank you for joining us.

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